Article: Drewvale is looming as a election hot spot

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail Quest click here!

Drewvale is looming as a election hot spot

Drewvale is looming as a election hot spot

    by: Angela Ranke, Southern Star
    From: Quest Newspapers
    January 25, 2012 12:01AM

The lack of public transport in Drewvale is gearing up to be a hot-button issue at the state election.

While the cost of public transport is hampering commuters across Brisbane, residents in the estates of Macquarie Way and Trinity Green have bigger problems.

No buses operate in the estates and residents are forced to use their cars or walk 30 minutes to the nearest bus stop at Browns Plains shopping centre if they want to catch public transport.

Politicians have done little to alleviate the problem with the Minister of Transport Annastacia Palaszczuk knocking back a petition for improved public transport.

The seat of Stretton is up for grabs, with outgoing Labour MP Stephen Robertson's retirement paving the way for incumbents Freya Ostapovitch (LNP), Duncan Pegg (ALP) and David Forde (Independent)

Residents who spoke to the Southern Star said public transport would be one of the most important issues for them as they take to the polling booth.

"I don't want to see lip service, I want to see real action," Con Vouvoulis said.

"All they need to do is add a stop at the beginning of Trinity Green or Macquarie Way."

Carmen Martin said her votes would go to the candidate who could solve her public transport problems.

"For me it's a very big issue," she said. "We pay rates, we pay taxes, just like everyone else. I don't understand why they can't put a bus in here," she said.

[#Metro]

Geometric issues!

http://g.co/maps/u4j4y

There is one road, and any bus service that goes there can ONLY go there.
Only alternative is on Mt Lindsay Highway.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/south/drewvale-residents-left-stranded-at-home-by-translink/story-fn8m0tyy-1226220075597

Of course "It's all TransLink's fault" - they want the 150 BUZ to deviate as well. Sorry!

[somebody]

Perhaps a Rocket and a local but I don't think a full time CBD services.

[#Metro]

A rocket would do okay - there are a number of services that begin in random streets in Sunnybank etc. Perhaps one of those could be extended.

There is more information here http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Documents/TableOffice/TabledPapers/2011/5311T5942.pdf

Something about the streets as well.

The entire development has "anti-public transport development" written all over it.

[#Metro]

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/04/be-on-the-way.html

[#Metro]

As much as people may be offended, this is one reason why park and ride has a place.
P+R is costly, but the cost was already incurred and locked in when the poor design was built.
P+R is simply a way of alleviating past mistakes.

NO amount of TODification around PT nodes is going to undo the very poor street geometry of this suburb and the geometric fact that the residents of Drewvale are 'not on the way' for decent PT. A deviation of BUZ 150 would cost 15 minutes of time and $1 million per year, and that is assuming accessibility and safety requirements are solvable.

High frequency coverage/welfare services are also unlikely. Even if PT went in, the likely hood would be a rocket in peak only or a coverage style service that runs infrequently.

The current service in that area is a connector taxi service, it's cost is $1
http://gailmacpherson.com/01_cms/details.asp?ID=84

PPT services cost $1.00 each way for adults, seniors, students and children (no concessions). TransLink tickets are not valid on PPT services.

Which again confirms that what people want are frequent services with a decent scope of hours, not cheap or even next-to-free rotten apples...

[#Metro]

PPT

Mornings

6.00am
6.40
7.20
8.00am

Afternoons

(approx)
4.00pm
4.40
5.20pm

[Gazza]

Its stupid. Gay street and Gardenia st could have easily been connection points from Drewvale to Browns Plains.
Even if they didn't want through traffic (IMO people get way too hung up on that) then bus bollards could have been installed.

But they chose to put the estate entrances as far an as inconveniently placed from Browns Plains as possible, resulting in long car trips, and an indirect path for any sort of bus.

A local bus service would most likely be a loop joining driving routes A&B.
That alone is 8.6km long...Longer than cityglider!



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This is where TT is right in that P&R is probably the best of a bad situation (Still disagree the inner 10km needs it, since road layouts are better there, and you dont have isolated islands of suburbia like this)

But the point is if they suburb was better designed and more dense (and it should be because its new!) then you could avoid park and ride even!

Better cycling infrastructure and safer casual use storage at Browns plains (Consider a cycle center at the bus station, with an attendant, that could also double as a cafe) I think is the other saviour of Drewvale.

[#Metro]

But the point is if they suburb was better designed and more dense (and it should be because its new!) then you could avoid park and ride even!

Unfortunately a big IF and one that has been around for a while.

[STB]

I've just taken a look at it myself and if I were trying to find a solution, I'd suggest a one way loop and just to operate in peak only to get an idea of how the loadings may end up being as I suspect that they would be low (ie: not enough to sustain a service full time) in that area due to the density and probability that the people living in that area are mostly workers who will only travel twice a day in the AM and PM (to and from work).

The loop I'm suggesting would start at Browns Plains Interchange, right into Browns Plains Rd, right into Wembley Rd, left into Macquarie Way, through to Trinity Way then left onto the service road for Beaudesert Rd, then back onto Browns Plains Rd and into Browns Plains Interchange.

I must admit, the location and design of the estate is really anti-public transport, anti-traffic designed, but that's what you get when you get urban planners and developers forgetting or ignoring the concept of people actually getting in and out of the estate in an efficient way.  Or when people jump up and down about not wanting traffic issues (the village mindset - kids being able to play on the street, white picket fences etc) and then wanting it have public transport and all the trimmings of transport to get in and out of where they now live.  You can't have it both ways in a lot of these cases.

I do agree however that the first step would be to get these people to use park and ride as the bus solution isn't ideal, and to have a bus to service one small estate just because it's out of the way of everything, is a pain in the neck for a transport planner.

[mufreight]

Bite the bullet and flatten about six houses and link uo a couple of the roads for through traffic and operate a bus service through both estates.  Easy solution except if yours is one of the houses involved but in all probability if you brought a property in the estae you did so because of the layout of the estate did not cater for through traffic but now you want a service provided that the estate was designed to prevent.
A case of something like can not have ones cake and eat it too.

[SurfRail]

The 542 goes within spitting distance of this estate (along Begonia Street).  If you can't walk to a bus stop on that route, you wouldn't be able to walk to one on the Mt Lindesay Hwy on the 140 or 150. 

If you want better PT, move somewhere up the road like Parkinson!  You get what you pay for...

[Gazza]

The solution is two bus routes for Drewvale. There should be a peak hour only cityxpress, and a peak hour only drewvale city precincts bus, cos that's how we roll in Brisbane.

In all seriousness though, the routing of the council cab is basicaly right.... Just make it all day hourly, so it fulfils the welfare function properly.....And better cycle infrastructure, since Drewvale isn't far from Browns Plains, and bikes can use the ped shorcut on Gardenia st.

[STB]

The solution is two bus routes for Drewvale. There should be a peak hour only cityxpress, and a peak hour only drewvale city precincts bus, cos that's how we roll in Brisbane.

Nah the locals don't want that from what I read, they want a fully fledged BUZ route 150, with a stop at the front of each and every door so they don't have to walk too far.  Good ol case of stuff everyone else I'll have what I want to have as I paid thousands to live in an isolated estate!  Just don't let the traffic through and let me have the kids be able to play in the street in pure blissful ignorance of everyday life!

EDIT: You can tell I really hate urban life focused on communities! The mindset of a lot of these people who live in these 'communities' really blows my mind!

[somebody]

The solution is two bus routes for Drewvale. There should be a peak hour only cityxpress, and a peak hour only drewvale city precincts bus, cos that's how we roll in Brisbane.

Nah the locals don't want that from what I read, they want a fully fledged BUZ route 150, with a stop at the front of each and every door so they don't have to walk too far.  Good ol case of stuff everyone else I'll have what I want to have as I paid thousands to live in an isolated estate!  Just don't let the traffic through and let me have the kids be able to play in the street in pure blissful ignorance of everyday life!

EDIT: You can tell I really hate urban life focused on communities! The mindset of a lot of these people who live in these 'communities' really blows my mind!

And have the buses give way to the kids playing cricket on the road.

The 542 goes within spitting distance of this estate (along Begonia Street).  If you can't walk to a bus stop on that route, you wouldn't be able to walk to one on the Mt Lindesay Hwy on the 140 or 150. 

If you want better PT, move somewhere up the road like Parkinson!  You get what you pay for...

I'm inclined to agree.  It's about a 1km walk from the far reaches of the estate.  Why should the public purse pay for a service which would likely be poorly utilised.  Although STB's one way loop suggestion does have some merit.

[#Metro]

In all seriousness though, the routing of the council cab is basicaly right.... Just make it all day hourly, so it fulfils the welfare function properly.....And better cycle infrastructure, since Drewvale isn't far from Browns Plains, and bikes can use the ped shorcut on Gardenia st.

But they already get welfare - the PPT cab which is only $1 - virtually free rotten apples. Terrible service though...

Maybe that cab could be increased in frequency, though not sure...

[STB]

In all seriousness though, the routing of the council cab is basicaly right.... Just make it all day hourly, so it fulfils the welfare function properly.....And better cycle infrastructure, since Drewvale isn't far from Browns Plains, and bikes can use the ped shorcut on Gardenia st.

But they already get welfare - the PPT cab which is only $1 - virtually free rotten apples. Terrible service though...

Maybe that cab could be increased in frequency, though not sure...

By the sounds of that article, I think it's more of a case that they want a direct bus to the city, ie: they don't want to transfer.

[Mr X]

Tough titties! If you live in a place that's completely impermeable by buses then don't go whining when none is provided!
It's an example of our "every man and his dog via south bank to the CBD" approach FAILING.

[STB]

Tough titties! If you live in a place that's completely impermeable by buses then don't go whining when none is provided!
It's an example of our "every man and his dog via south bank to the CBD" approach FAILING.

This reminds me of route 118, which effectively only really serves that one estate in Heathwood.  Realistically, they should be either catching route 465 to Richlands Station and transferring or catching the 534 to Forest Lake and transferring onto either routes 100 or 460/1.

In the words of tramtrain...118 CUT!! (??)

[SurfRail]

Dude, its an average bit of suburbia miles from the CBD, it doesn't deserve a dedicated rocket like that just because it can save a measly few minutes.

I'm sure my Oxley all stopper could be several minutes faster if it didn't stop all stations. But I don't get that, do I?
Corinda lost its express services. Boo hoo.

Similarly, I bet with the Mandurah/Joondaulp lines if they ran a parallel bus from some point non stop it would beat out the train by a little bit.

Perhaps because that is where a number of people are going?

Yeah, and they should be using the expensive rail line and BUZ that have been provided for them. Take it or leave it.

There is a lot of sense here.  The only routes I am aware of from the far northern suburbs of Perth that continue to town are basically the Alexander Drive express routes which do not intersect a railway, and all the way along they cross 400-series Joondalup line feeders.  Likewise the only buses out to Midland or Armadale are those which fulfil a corridor function, not a means of getting to the city quickly in the peak

[#Metro]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1233.0

Drewvale is a landlocked suburb, south of the Logan Motorway, with no bus service and strong demand from residents to connect them to shops and facilities in nearby Browns Plains.

The barriers formed by the motorways also play a role here.

The only hope is if the residents petition and pressure the developers to create a direct, arterial style (i.e. steam ironed straight) road connection between trinity way and Begonia street which flows into Ranchwood Avenue. Even then the service might only be shuttle and require connection. But at least it would be direct and thus cheaper, allowing more funds to spend on frequency.

The resident's see TransLink as the problem, Translink sees the huge cost that has come from the awful geometry and layout of the streets as the problem (and rightly so). No-one has said anything about the roles of who allowed this to be built or the developer in in this case.

Or as Mufreight suggested- knock about 6 brand new houses down, at an estimated cost of about $6 million dollars and build a road connection between Macquarie way and Gardenia street into the adjoining estate. This will allow buses to flow into there. A special rates levy imposed on everyone in Drewvale could pay for these resumptions so that it is affordable for the area. The developer is going to scream, and other residents might scream, and prospective buyers might scream too but it comes down to fairness. You can have almost anything you want ... so long as you are prepared to pay for the portion of service over and above what everyone else would usually get...

This might be a decent outcome that allows things to move forward. BT and TL along with BCC should consider this. Plans could be drawn up and draft frequency made and pitched.


Buses and street mazes don't mix.

[mufreight]

Tramtrain you have probably slightly overestimated the cost of resumptions and constructing the missing link of road.
The resumptions and demolition costs for the six houses would probably have change out of $3 million and the required road works might cost about $1 million, possibly less.
For the rest of your comment, spot on.

[achiruel]

• Why on earth do people move to an area with poor public transport and then complain about the lack
• Why on earth do local council/State Government continue to allow such poorly planned subdivisions to go ahead?

[BrizCommuter]

How about a half-hourly loop (with the odd hour gap so that the driver can have a break) through the Drewvale urban sprawl, timed to connect with a Buz into the CBD. Just needs one midi-bus - although TransLink seem to have a phobia of these. Would need 2 drivers to cover a 6am to 7:30pm ish service.

[#Metro]

If it is deadwood, then CUT !!

Service can be added to Bulimba BUZ +1  

Insert Quote
How about a half-hourly loop (with the odd hour gap so that the driver can have a break) through the Drewvale urban sprawl, timed to connect with a Buz into the CBD. Just needs one midi-bus - although TransLink seem to have a phobia of these. Would need 2 drivers to cover a 6am to 7:30pm ish service.

How about a drewvale residents' tax levy that gets added to the rates so that the taxi can be boosted in frequency. They live in a street maze, someone has to pay the excess costs over and above what everyone else gets. An alternative is to extend a rocket (i.e. 133 or whatnot) into there but that would only be possible in peak

If everyone paid $50 per year on top of their rates x ~ 1000 residents that live there, that would make $50 000 per year that could be used to boost PPT taxi services through the area. The council could contribute whatever it already contributes in PPT funding. Buying a mini bus would cost at least $250 000 - $400 000, why not spend that cash on taxi frequency. Does it have to be a bus?

I suspect only a maximum of 50 - 100 people per day (generously) would or could use that service (1000 residents x 5% or 10%). A BUZ would probably carry that amount of people on one run.

[BrizCommuter]

Hino Poncho


TransLink should buy a stack of these (or similar buses) for urban sprawl services.

[Arnz]

There's already a few of those mini-buses running around the thin-lying (less-frequent) milk/community routes in the regional areas. (Both the QConnect and TransLink areas, eg the Veolia piecarts in the Redlands areas)



Shot by Two-Way of the ATDB.

[#Metro]

No need to buy or maintain anything


When not running PT services, they can be doing private taxi service runs. Simple.

Save the cash for decent frequency. It doesn't have to be a bus, just like it doesn't have to be Light Rail.

[SurfRail]

Hino Poncho


TransLink should buy a stack of these (or similar buses) for urban sprawl services.

They are operationally inflexible, virtually as expensive to run (major cost is labour - driver/mechanics), usually underpowered for the terrain they need to get over, uncomfortable for passengers (crap suspension, slow).  Basically there is no reason anybody has ever come up with to convince me why minibuses make sense for urban transit in SEQ.  Anything a minibus can do a 12.5 metre bus can do, unless the roads are too small - in which case you make sure the roads are the right size in future and buy short wheel-base buses to cope instead of minis.

We had minibuses everywhere in SEQ 5 years ago, and now they are all gone bar the very small number of low floor ones and a handful which still live on the Sunshine Coast and in the Redlands.  They were universally hated - clapped out, gutless, hard to drive, poorly suited to local conditions and they have awkward low-entry arrangements.  Things have improved markedly since the introduction of proper rear engined full-length buses.

Everywhere is different (public light buses work wonders in Hong Kong), but I think they have been tested quite satisfactorily here and have comprehensively failed.

[Gazza]

No need to buy or maintain anything


When not running PT services, they can be doing private taxi service runs. Simple.

Save the cash for decent frequency. It doesn't have to be a bus, just like it doesn't have to be Light Rail.

This.

It's 8km following the current council cab route...$20 per run or $40 round trip at current taxi fares.

Say 13 trips per day (7am-7pm). Hourly frequency. Costs $520 a day to run, or $189,800 per year, or $30 per resident, per year.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Lets hope the drivers know where they are going. I had to once time tell a cabbie how to get from Park Road in Milton to Milton Station 

[Mr X]

You could always paint the sidewalks orange to highlight taxi hail n' ride spots.

[albiwan]

As a beside, the new suburb of Berrinba also just as public transport unfriendly and adjoins Drewvale. A Translink search reveals ridulous journeys to get to the suburb. Berrinba is easliy accessed from the " below Motorway" section of Drewvale at the intersection of Macquairie Way, Anderson Street and WembleyRoad. Maybe it would add an economy of scale for any Drewvale service.

[achiruel]

the new suburb of Berrinba also just as public transport unfriendly and adjoins Drewvale.

I don't think Berrinba is that bad, the entire suburb can be reasonably well served just by having a bus run along Fourth Ave

[mufreight]

A storm in a teacup issue.
The pathetic avaliability of public transport is as a result of the design of these estates, those who purchased properties there would have had as a factor in the sales pitch the fact that the estate/community was designed to minimise through traffic flows and would therefor be quieter.
They got what they paid for at the time, if they now no longer like it they can move out to somewhere where there is a road system that has been designed with the provision of public transport in mind.
The same problem will rear its ugly head in Springfield and a number of other developments over time for exactly the same reason. Pathetic planning to maximise the number of blocks that can be sold off rather than a sustainable community that provides for the mobility of those resident there using public transport.

[Simon]

Bus discussion has been moved to Bus routes reviewed.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7569.0

Indeed we do Fares_Fair.  I was just lacking a bit of inclination to do it.

[Fares_Fair]

Fares_Fair wonders what other super-powers moderators may have ...   
Thanks Simon.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Fares_Fair wonders what other super-powers moderators may have ...   
Thanks Simon.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

You mean like edit/delete posts? 

(This would be noted by the forum software).

[Fares_Fair]

Fares_Fair wonders what other super-powers moderators may have ...   
Thanks Simon.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

You mean like edit/delete posts? 

(This would be noted by the forum software).

Ah, forum software, the Kryptonite of moderators !! 

[pangwen]

The main problem I see is that this section of Drewvale (the northern section north of the motorway is well serviced by the 130/153 IMO) is trapped by Beaudesert Road/Mt Lindesay Hwy on the west, Logan Mwy on the north and the BCC/LCC boundary to the south. That is the main reason there's almost no street connectivity between this development and the adjacent one - the LCC part (officially Browns Plains) was developed many years ago, and Logan City Council must have said "stuff it, we don't need to provide any street connectors to the bushland in Brisbane, nobody's going to develop between the motorway and the Council boundary".

Now, the issue is that BT and PRT need to negotiate how to fund a local route like this. Drewvale is a BCC suburb (within the BT contract area), Berrinba and Browns Plains are LCC suburbs (within the PRT contract area IIRC). A local bus to Grand Plaza could be done by either, but my gut feeling is that a city-bound bus would need to be done by PRT, as BT have so far been unwilling (unable?) to service large sections in Logan.