Rail capacity on the northern line

[somebody]

Ewww.

It should be a tiered service if the extra trains aren't needed to serve Lawnton-Virginia.

And don't give them ideas.  One of the positives of the MBRL is that it will achieve 4tph to Petrie.

Yes, but you could get 4tph to BOTH with a shuttle service.
Alternative is to have NCL line passengers transfer to MBRL services - I'm sure that would go down well with NCL passengers (not).

Decent frequency (15 minutes, 6 am - 9pm) should be policy standard for all Core Frequent Network services. CFN is like the main highway system, applied to PT. Must be high capacity, decent hours, decent legibility, decent everything. New railways should not be built to run coverage/welfare-style services - at $100 - $200 million PER KM you want some decent bang.

A decent service would be 4tph Northgate, all to Kippa-Ring + 4tph Northgate, Petrie all to Caboolture.

[#Metro]

A decent service would be 4tph Northgate, all to Kippa-Ring + 4tph Northgate, Petrie all to Caboolture.

A two tier system- express (NCL) and local (KR) would work nicely, and I agree, however, shuttle service supplies the most frequency at the lowest cost. The more costly something is (8tph), the less likely it is to happen. I think shuttles should be considered as an interim measure - as I doubt funds would be made to have 8tph... but surprise me!

People need to learn to connect, and in fact they do (Cultural Centre, Boggo Road, Beenleigh), walking across a train platform takes less than 30 seconds and is very simple to do. Hardly worth spending possibly tens of millions of dollars every year just to save 30 sec crossing.

Same principle with route 88 - so much money expended on saving people a 1 minute transfer and duplicates all the other services. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS that could have been put to use extending decent frequency into public transport black spots Bulimba, Centenary Suburbs and up Metroad 5 into Albany Creek/Eatons Hill.

[#Metro]

I'm living in 4tph land sooo....

I'm living in 20 bph land, hahah 

10x better than living next to train station...

[Mr X]

In a perfect world this is what would happen:
2tph Nambour -> Roma Street, exp CAB -> BH, stopping only at Petrie and Northgate
4tph Caboolture -> Roma Street, exp Northgate -> Bowen Hills
4tph MBRL -> Roma Street, exp Northgate -> Bowen Hills
4tph Petrie -> Roma street, all stops
2tpd GYN -> Roma street, exp CAB -> BH

But that is the train spotter fantasy land!

I like the idea of 4tph to Caboolture, 2tph from Nambour and 2tph from RS to MBRL, with a further 2tph "shuttles" to Petrie.

[somebody]

Err, Eagle Junction is a more important stop than Northgate.
And if you have 4tph PET-RS then why have the Kippa-Ring trains serve Lawnton-Virginia

Also, the GYN trains shouldn't be serving Elimbah-Wombye except Landsborough.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Realistically.... I'd like and somewhat expect to see in conjunction with CRR, NGR and Lansborough duplication/realignment.

4tph to Kippa Ring all stations
2tph to Caboolture exp Bowen Hills to Petrie, stopping at Northgate and Eagle Junction and all stations Petrie-Caboolture.
1tph to Landsborough exp Bowen Hills to Petrie, stopping at Northgate and Eagle Junction and all stations Petrie-Landsborough with a railbus to Nambour (Its effectivley 2 Nambour trains an hour but only every second one continues on to Nambour).
1tph to Nambour exp Bowen Hills to Petrie, stopping at Northgate and Eagle Junction and all stations Petrie-Nambour (I know they campaigned against stopping at EJ a decade ago but tough titties).
2tpd to Gympie North express Bowen Hills to Nambour stopping only at Caboolture and Landsborough.

It gives 15min frequency Caboolture-Bowen Hills, 30 min frequency to Landsborough, links all lines together instead of swapping multiple times (Landsborough-Eagle Junction-Airport instead of Landsborough-Northgate-Eagle Junction-Airport) while slightly improving running times of Gympie North/services North of Caboolture until CAMCOS and other straightening/realignment works are undertaken. The third track between Petrie-Caboolture can be delayed a little and once needed could then be used as a dedicated express line for TravelTrain, GYN services and freight trains Northgate-Caboolture.

[SurfRail]

Immediately, I would like to see 15 minute all stations to Petrie with existing service to Caboolture and further north.

Mid-term, I would like to see:

2 tph Nambour to Caboolture, express to Bowen Hills stopping only at Petrie, Strathpine and Eagle Junction
4 tph Caboolture to Strathpine, express to Bowen Hills stopping only at Strathpine and Eagle Junction
4 tph Strathpine to city all stations
4 tph Kippa-Ring to Petrie shuttle with peak services extended to the city (as per Caboolture express pattern)

Off-peak with the NWTC and CRR, I would like to see as a minimum:

4 tph Caboolture to Petrie, express to Exhibition stopping only at Strathpine and Eagle Junction
4 tph Kippa-Ring to Strathpine, express to Exhibition stopping only at Eagle Junction
4 tph Maroochydore to Caboolture, express to Roma Street via north-west transit corridor with no/minimal stops en route
2 tph Beerwah to Cooroy, with several services per day extended to Gympie.  Some peak hour services follow the Maroochydore pattern and extend to Brisbane.

[somebody]

I'm not sure why you have such a thing about Strathpine terminators.  That would require another platform at Strathpine, unless you are going to block a running line.  Without the NWTC I don't see that it makes much sense, just run to Petrie, which is the branching point and has at least some infrastructure to allow it without causing too much trouble for other services.

[HappyTrainGuy]

2 tph Nambour to Caboolture, express to Bowen Hills stopping only at Petrie, Strathpine and Eagle Junction
4 tph Caboolture to Strathpine, express to Bowen Hills stopping only at Strathpine and Eagle Junction
4 tph Strathpine to city all stations
4 tph Kippa-Ring to Petrie shuttle with peak services extended to the city (as per Caboolture express pattern)

Personally I don't like the Strathpine option. Way way way to messy without the NWTC and other infrastructure such as a fourth rail and crossovers to support it (Without a crossover north of Strathpine the middle rail is blocked Bald Hills to Lawnton which prevents your express services from running). I also don't see the Caboolture option being successful as a 4tph the Caboolture route past Petrie carries air due to its catchent and poor feeder bus services. Better to merge Nambour and Caboolture running pattens as limited stop express services Petrie-City.

[somebody]

I don't like running half empty or worse trains through the city during off-peak,

Why have a rail system at all then?

[#Metro]

BUSWAY! 

[ozbob]

BUSWAY! 

No way, capacity is already terminal on our 'busways',  only way forward is rail and lots of it ...

[somebody]

To add to my previous comment, no way do rail vehicles need to have near maximum capacity to be worth running.  What is one of the most relevant things is utilised capacity of the corridor, not so much the utilisation of the actual running vehicles.

Currently, corridor capacity utilisation would be <5%.

[Arnz]

Post CRR/MBRL and Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication, this would be my pick

4tph Kippa-Ring all-stops.
2tph Caboolture (express Bowen Hills to Petrie stopping Eagle Junction and Northgate); improved 640 bus connection (increased to half-hourly).
1tph Landsborough (express Bowen Hills to Petrie stopping Eagle Junction and Northgate); bus connection, 605/615 and a renumbered 635 to Nambour (former 649 Nambour Railbus).  All services including the 635 operated by Sunbus from Caloundra and Marcoola depots (all routes from Landsborough shared between both depots).
1tph Nambour (express Bowen Hills to Petrie stopping Eagle Junction and Northgate); with the 605/615/630/631 connections.
2tpd Gympie North (express Bowen Hills to Landsborough stopping only at Caboolture).

4tph on the suburbans for Albion, Wooloowin, Toombul, Nundah and between Virginia and Lawnton.  8tph for Eagle Junction and Northgate.  4tph between Petrie and Caboolture (Formed by Caboolture and Nambour trains), 2tph between Caboolture and Landsborough, 1tph between Landsborough and Nambour (with upgraded crossing loops).

[BrizCommuter]

A little drawing.

                       /-----------\
-----------------<     PLAT      \
                       >------------ \ -------------
----EXP BI DI--<                     \               To Caboolture
                       >--------------  \ ----------
-----------------<     PLAT            \
                       \-------------\     \
                                         \     \  
                                         To Redcliffe

This layout would allow the UP and DOWN roads to be accessed by both Caboolture and Redcliffe services. The centre bi-di road (for peak direction expresses) can only be accessed by Caboolture services, although extra crossovers towards Lawnton would allow for access by Redcliffe services.

This layout neglects stabling or reversing, however this could easily be added to the layout with crossovers and reversing sidings. Few services would reverse at Petrie anyway post MBRL.

By the way, BrizCommuter sees this am peak scenario in 2016, 9tph ex-Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph ex-Redcliffe. Same as current timetable, but with Petrie service starting at Redcliffe instead.

[HappyTrainGuy]

This layout neglects stabling or reversing, however this could easily be added to the layout with crossovers and reversing sidings. Few services would reverse at Petrie anyway post MBRL.

By the way, BrizCommuter sees this am peak scenario in 2016, 9tph ex-Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph ex-Redcliffe. Same as current timetable, but with Petrie service starting at Redcliffe instead.

All stabling at Petrie will be removed and relocated to a larger stabling facility at Kippa Ring. IIRC it was mentioned in some report, from the timetable planning, some reccommendation or something somewhere but some Petrie starters should still be retained but they will be combined with a couple limited Kippa Ring express services in the height of peak hour just to cover off any potential overcrowding issues between Lawnton-Virginia with future expansion/increased services. Most likely ran straight from the stabling at Kippa Ring.

Edit: Added reference design plans for Petrie and Kippa Ring stabling (Does not mean this is the final outcome)
Petrie - http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/1fdfb323-c10b-48de-80ca-0f9cc8ef0c6f/petriestation.pdf
Kippa Ring - http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/1366ba36-07f8-44a1-b6c7-293286d9ba6d/kipparingstation.pdf

[SurfRail]

I'm not sure why you have such a thing about Strathpine terminators.  That would require another platform at Strathpine, unless you are going to block a running line.  Without the NWTC I don't see that it makes much sense, just run to Petrie, which is the branching point and has at least some infrastructure to allow it without causing too much trouble for other services.

Running express from Petrie during the off-peak strikes me as a waste of capacity on Caboolture trains, and it creates an unnatural break of journey at Petrie when it is not a major destination in its own right.  Kippa-Ring is too far out to be running all stations, and likewise in the off-peak it would be a waste of capacity to run these express from Petrie.  Infrastructure should not be a hobble - you just get on with building what enables the best outcome for land use and people movement.

I think it is common sense to plan for 4 tracks all the way to Petrie given the expected increase in the freight and passenger task.  I will be rather disappointed if the Pine River bridge expansion does not cater to it.

[SurfRail]

I also don't see the Caboolture option being successful as a 4tph the Caboolture route past Petrie carries air due to its catchent and poor feeder bus services.

It carries air because the service is crap and connecting buses are worse.  People are still driving everywhere as a result - there is plenty of travel demand, which is not being met with public transport.  You can fix rail and feeder buses quite easily with some effort.

In Perth, every station has a no compromise 15 minute service.  Every station.  Every.  Even on the Armadale line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes yes yes we all know Perth has a 15 minute frequency and I hardly think the Armadale line is comparable to the traffic type and volume that the Caboolture line (and multiple lines too) has to contend with considering freight in Perth also use the bypass thats available. Its easy to say it carries air because its run on a 30 minute frequency but the bus to train connection services are pretty good as they tend to meet every train off peak. The reason it carries air is because there is limited catchment and walk up patronage available. Its the Ormeau-Coomera of the GCL.  What catchment area is there along the Caboolture line to sustain a 15 minute frequency all day. Dakabin is in the middle of nowhere, next to a Golf Course and a fenced off highschool with no feeder bus services. Narangba is surrounded by large single properties, still relies heavily on park and ride which is full early in the morning, 800m north and you finally get the start of any large amounts of dwellings, the only bus (the 663) that meets train does a whole loop of Narangba in one direction only to have it stop just after 7pm, same with the 668 Narangba to Deception Bay bus stopping at 7pm. Burpengary and Morayfield are slightly better for walk up patronage but all three still heavily rely on park and ride usage having all undergone recent parking expansion. If its enough to warrant a 15 minute frequency eat into the Nambour line services. More bang for your buck having more all stopping services to Kippa Ring than chucking air parcles at the NCL.

[SurfRail]

Yes yes yes we all know Perth has a 15 minute frequency and I hardly think the Armadale line is comparable to the traffic type and volume that the Caboolture line (and multiple lines too) has to contend with considering freight in Perth also use the bypass thats available. Its easy to say it carries air because its run on a 30 minute frequency but the bus to train connection services are pretty good as they tend to meet every train off peak. The reason it carries air is because there is limited catchment and walk up patronage available. Its the Ormeau-Coomera of the GCL.  What catchment area is there along the Caboolture line to sustain a 15 minute frequency all day. Dakabin is in the middle of nowhere, next to a Golf Course and a fenced off highschool with no feeder bus services. Narangba is surrounded by large single properties, still relies heavily on park and ride which is full early in the morning, 800m north and you finally get the start of any large amounts of dwellings, the only bus (the 663) that meets train does a whole loop of Narangba in one direction only to have it stop just after 7pm, same with the 668 Narangba to Deception Bay bus stopping at 7pm. Burpengary and Morayfield are slightly better for walk up patronage but all three still heavily rely on park and ride usage having all undergone recent parking expansion. If its enough to warrant a 15 minute frequency eat into the Nambour line services. More bang for your buck having more all stopping services to Kippa Ring than chucking air parcles at the NCL.

I think it is entirely realistic to be arguing for 15 minute frequencies to the extremity of the suburban network in the off-peak, otherwise you may as well just be running a bus and leaving the railway for freight.

Caboolture is a bigger centre than Armadale and easily justifies a 15 minute service in and of itself.  Plenty of stations in Perth only attract a few hundred boardings each day, it doesn't mean they run trains express past them or run at 30 min headways.  Patronage comes from frequency and good connectivity which gives a car-like experience.  People are clearly still travelling on the roads all around Moreton Bay whenever I visit, which means there is travel demand. 

The feeder buses are poorly designed and have limited hours of operation, so of course there will be limited patronage from those.

QR and Treasury need to get their heads out of the sand (and it is not just Treasury - I have spoken to QR timetablers to whom 15 minute frequencies are an alien concept, unless you are talking about coal...)

[#Metro]

It carries air because the service is crap and connecting buses are worse.  People are still driving everywhere as a result - there is plenty of travel demand, which is not being met with public transport.  You can fix rail and feeder buses quite easily with some effort.

In Perth, every station has a no compromise 15 minute service.  Every station.  Every.  Even on the Armadale line.

Amen!!  What the h*ll is out at Armadale- nothing!!

I think it is entirely realistic to be arguing for 15 minute frequencies to the extremity of the suburban network in the off-peak, otherwise you may as well just be running a bus and leaving the railway for freight.

Caboolture is a bigger centre than Armadale and easily justifies a 15 minute service in and of itself.  Plenty of stations in Perth only attract a few hundred boardings each day, it doesn't mean they run trains express past them or run at 30 min headways.  Patronage comes from frequency and good connectivity which gives a car-like experience.  People are clearly still travelling on the roads all around Moreton Bay whenever I visit, which means there is travel demand.

The feeder buses are poorly designed and have limited hours of operation, so of course there will be limited patronage from those.

I agree. 15 minutes to Caboolture or even Sunshine Coast (with CAMCOS) should be the policy standard.
Even if that requires shuttles with cross platform connections.

I know people hate me saying this, but large park and ride in those locations is essential given the densities, distances and restrictions that arise on feeder buses from that.

[BrizCommuter]

This layout neglects stabling or reversing, however this could easily be added to the layout with crossovers and reversing sidings. Few services would reverse at Petrie anyway post MBRL.

By the way, BrizCommuter sees this am peak scenario in 2016, 9tph ex-Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph ex-Redcliffe. Same as current timetable, but with Petrie service starting at Redcliffe instead.

All stabling at Petrie will be removed and relocated to a larger stabling facility at Kippa Ring. IIRC it was mentioned in some report, from the timetable planning, some reccommendation or something somewhere but some Petrie starters should still be retained but they will be combined with a couple limited Kippa Ring express services in the height of peak hour just to cover off any potential overcrowding issues between Lawnton-Virginia with future expansion/increased services. Most likely ran straight from the stabling at Kippa Ring.

Edit: Added reference design plans for Petrie and Kippa Ring stabling (Does not mean this is the final outcome)
Petrie - http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/1fdfb323-c10b-48de-80ca-0f9cc8ef0c6f/petriestation.pdf
Kippa Ring - http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/1366ba36-07f8-44a1-b6c7-293286d9ba6d/kipparingstation.pdf

Thanks for posting that information. Stabling at Kippa-Ring is a sensible move. It appears that there is no grade separated junction at Petrie, which would add to SE Queensland's list of half-baked infrastructure projects.  

Running Kippa-Ring expresses, and Petrie all stations services sounds messy, and could be a retrograde step from the current logical and homogenous timetable.

[SurfRail]

I know people hate me saying this, but large park and ride in those locations is essential given the densities, distances and restrictions that arise on feeder buses from that.

No issues with this at all actually. 

North of Petrie (except for inner Caboolture or Nambour), park and ride is ideal, as long as you can still provide a decent feeder bus where possible (the current routings aren't too bad, just don't run after hours and the main trunks like the 660 and 680 are far too infrequent). 

Also no issues from me with the proposed additional station at the Caboolture showground, which if it ever happens would be the main park n ride.  Caboolture itself is ripe for redevelopment.  Nambour is also ripe for more population and there are alternative stations where you can put parking spaces.

Its anywhere closer to a major centre where I question the utility, because the aim should be to convert a car trip to a transit trip earlier in the piece by using what should be a properly developed PT network leading in to those major centres.

[Arnz]

There is residential development going on around Beerburrum, some of it can be seen from the train.  In Beerburrum's case its more of put the 'new' station early to cater for development (one of the few cases where the State gov gets it right).  However, I do think Beerburrum is more of a dormitory suburb of Beerwah or Caboolture (judging by the small group of local work traffic heading both north and south in the mornings).

The growth of Beerwah and surrounding areas has seen local walk up traffic increase only slightly (obviously not to the levels of inner Brisbane), but ongoing residential and commercial development (as a result of Australia Zoo) helps.  Obligatory School Students traffic (Beerwah-Glasshouse-Landsborough area) in the mornings had Beerwah overtake Nambour in boardings on the mornings (though load survey counters did not recount #T5V6 and #X970 - Both popular with School Students) as the counting snapshot occured during School Holidays.

As for the proposed North Caboolture Station, provided it's a extension of the Caboolture line services I'd support.  It'll be a waste if it's only serviced by Sunshine Coast Line trains.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Its okay to argue for trains every 15 mins but I'm going to be realistic and say its not going happen anytime soon..... I'm going to say even prior to that SEQrailwewishtohavein2031/CAMCOS/NWOMGBBQLOLTC. Maximise capacity and use Nambour trains if needed in the short term. 4tph Kippa Ring-Springfield/2tph Ipswich-Caboolture express would happen waaaaaaaaaaay before 4tph to Caboolture. Having Caboolture services operate with 4 all stopping trains mixed with Nambour/Gympie express trains, traveltrains and freight trains is asking for trouble on dual track and then just a brick to the face when trying to solve how can they run 4 ex-Caboolture express trains (8 Caboolture + 8 Kippa Ring total), with Nambour/Gympie Express services along with taking care of TravelTrain and freight services in both directions on 3 pretty fast straight tracks.....

Solutions around that would be to build additional lines. A fourth line Northgate-Petrie and a third between Petrie-Caboolture (Last I heard was Petrie-Caboolture upgrade was only needed when CAMCOS/Landsborough duplication and realignmnet went up). 12 Stations would have to be modified along with property resumptions and major bridge modifications along the line. But then comes funding and future projects around the entire network. There's the 8 billion dollar Cross River Rail project, the 3.2 billion dollar NGR project, the 1.15 billion dollar Moreton Bay Rail line project. A few hundred million spent on a new maintainence and stabling facility at Wulkuraka. A few hundred million spent of extending the Gold Coast line. Adding a tripple/quad to Beenleigh. A third track to Ipswich and removing the single track on the Cleveland line. Oh CAMCOS line. NCL realignment and duplication and the possible NWTC. Nice and cheap options coming up to pluck the money off the trees

QR and Treasury need to get their heads out of the sand (and it is not just Treasury - I have spoken to QR timetablers to whom 15 minute frequencies are an alien concept, unless you are talking about coal...)

Maybe we have different knowledge but 15 minute frequencies is nothing unheard of at QR before.

Thanks for posting that information. Stabling at Kippa-Ring is a sensible move. It appears that there is no grade separated junction at Petrie, which would add to SE Queensland's list of half-baked infrastructure projects.  

Running Kippa-Ring expresses, and Petrie all stations services sounds messy, and could be a retrograde step from the current logical and homogenous timetable.

No problem. Its not the final plans. These were the very basic reference plans prior to the detailed designs that are currently being finalised. Petrie-Kippa Ring is already completed IIRC and the Lawnton-Petrie tender has finished earlier in the week. The Lawnton to Petrie bridge/station upgrade consultant tender mentioned grade speration plans but what that involves and if it makes it to the final design I wouldn't know.

Ultimate Design – Third and fourth track, grade separated
Option 1 Interim – Third track and grade separated
Option 2 Interim – Third track and flat junction

It shouldn't be messy. No different than the few Nambour services that do the same. I'd imagine the ex-Kippa Ring express would all stop to Petrie with the Petrie starter following behind on the yellows. After it stops at Petrie it would do a Caboolture line copy running express on the middle track to Northgate while the following Petrie starter would load up and stop all stations to the city and maximise the capacity available. It might not look like it now but IIRC there would be one definate TOD along the line at Kallangur, another TOD is being considered for Rothwell and a possible third TOD at Kingsellas Road East (It might not be a high density TOD in the end but the land surrounding the station was just given permission for a massive property development a couple years ago to Urbex that should be started once the final plans are released for that section of area. Its also why the stations construction was brought forward by a decade).

[Mr X]

What is this NWTC? Is it the trouts rd corridor?
I haven't seen anything official before of it being an actual project except for an idea in a thread TT made?

[ozbob]

What is this NWTC? Is it the trouts rd corridor?
I haven't seen anything official before of it being an actual project except for an idea in a thread TT made?

North West transport corridor --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3664.0

Yes, it is part of the longer term planning.

[aldonius]

Trouts Rd corridor is explicitly mentioned in Connecting SEQ 2031.

constructing a new rail line between the North Coast Line at Strathpine and Cross River Rail at Roma Street, using the predominantly government-owned North West Transport Corridor

[Mr X]

thanks 

[Stillwater]

TMR info page:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Planning-for-the-future/Preserved-transport-corridors/North-West-Transport-Corridor.aspx

The real tricky (and costly) bit is the proposed tunnel from Alderley to the Exhibition loop, connecting to the CRR tunnel.

The Trouts Road rail corridor and the Alderley-Exhibition tunnel are required to meet Anna Bligh's promise of passenger trains running at 160 km/hr from the Sunshine Coast to Brisbane.  The grand children of those reading this might be among the first to ride on them.

[somebody]

A little drawing.

                       /-----------\
-----------------<     PLAT      \
                       >------------ \ -------------
----EXP BI DI--<                     \               To Caboolture
                       >--------------  \ ----------
-----------------<     PLAT            \
                       \-------------\     \
                                         \     \  
                                         To Redcliffe

That would be about the ideal, presuming you mean the Redcliffe bound is grade separated.

By the way, BrizCommuter sees this am peak scenario in 2016, 9tph ex-Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph ex-Redcliffe. Same as current timetable, but with Petrie service starting at Redcliffe instead.

I agree that it is the most likely.  Not convinced about it being good though.

I'm not sure why you have such a thing about Strathpine terminators.  That would require another platform at Strathpine, unless you are going to block a running line.  Without the NWTC I don't see that it makes much sense, just run to Petrie, which is the branching point and has at least some infrastructure to allow it without causing too much trouble for other services.

Running express from Petrie during the off-peak strikes me as a waste of capacity on Caboolture trains, and it creates an unnatural break of journey at Petrie when it is not a major destination in its own right.  Kippa-Ring is too far out to be running all stations, and likewise in the off-peak it would be a waste of capacity to run these express from Petrie.  Infrastructure should not be a hobble - you just get on with building what enables the best outcome for land use and people movement.

I think it is common sense to plan for 4 tracks all the way to Petrie given the expected increase in the freight and passenger task.  I will be rather disappointed if the Pine River bridge expansion does not cater to it.

What so make the Kippa-Ring trains express and Caboolture trains all stations to Northgate?

I'd be comfortable with the express trains serving Strathpine off peak, just like if you had off peak Ipswich express trains you'd add a stop at Toowong.

Ideally, there would have been a quad from Northgate to Lawnton and no more platform faces for higher sustained speeds IMO.  I guess if there aren't platform faces then you don't necessarily need the flyover between Virginia and Northgate allowing up-up-down-down.  This quad would be pretty underutilised on opening though.

Just to Qualify my earlier post/option
Delivers 15min timetable to all stations, bar Doomben line north of Bowen Hills to Cabulture. I have previously used Albion off-peak a few times which has 15min and didn't see it swamped with bodies so the shuttle option for Shorncliffe. While I promote 15min service frequency, if people think ridership will more than double, I doubt it and I doubt doubling would mean trains are no longer comfortable, especally for a while as the slow modal shift happens. If however the numbers are there, or generate more trains can run by running the shuttles through, I said this.

Cost wise if you want credibility with the govt in getting a 15min service up, its not about filling track capacity with trains because you can, but about providing 15min service that doesn't force up the operational subsidy. Tracks cost alot of money to build, but running 240t of train with a staff of 2 is now free and I believe is around a few grand return to Beenleigh. Neither side of politics will show any interest in "run trains at any cost" approach. The target should be to get 15min with a seated capacity of the train nominally around 100% at the outer ends of the city in off-peak, before considering replacing shuttles with full runs.

Personally all stoppers with much more than 15 stops to the end is a long ride, so having Cab trains run limited express to Nth Gate means its then 15 stops to the end. The 30min service to Beerburum/Lands/Nambour provides the 15min service nth of Petrie, the extra 4 stops only adds 2-3min.

Running all stops from EJ to KR is probably at the top end of the number stops, but if numbers justify and Shorncliff or Petrie was to have 15min through to city, the extra Shorncliff could pick up Toombul and Nundah or one of Petrie trains miss these.

Regards
Shane

Where's the analysis of the costs vs benefits?  "A few grand BNH return" I doubt that very much.  I'd forecast extra revenue of like $10k/day intra peak for the Caboolture line for something like 60-120 man-hours of labour.  Perhaps you meant a few grand per day, not per trip.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I haven't seen anything official before of it being an actual project except for an idea in a thread TT made?

Whether Trouts Road will go ahead and be included in the NWTC and adhear to the connecting SEQ 2031 plans with actual funding remains to be seen. Having the estimated 13 billion being spent on CRR/NGR/MBRL tends to make me think that it will most likely end up as a busway or a 6 lane road with 4 tracks from Northgate to Caboolture on cost figures alone 

Purple maglev maxi taxis anyone?

[SurfRail]

Solutions around that would be to build additional lines. A fourth line Northgate-Petrie and a third between Petrie-Caboolture (Last I heard was Petrie-Caboolture upgrade was only needed when CAMCOS/Landsborough duplication and realignmnet went up). 12 Stations would have to be modified along with property resumptions and major bridge modifications along the line. But then comes funding and future projects around the entire network. There's the 8 billion dollar Cross River Rail project, the 3.2 billion dollar NGR project, the 1.15 billion dollar Moreton Bay Rail line project. A few hundred million spent on a new maintainence and stabling facility at Wulkuraka. A few hundred million spent of extending the Gold Coast line. Adding a tripple/quad to Beenleigh. A third track to Ipswich and removing the single track on the Cleveland line. Oh CAMCOS line. NCL realignment and duplication and the possible NWTC. Nice and cheap options coming up to pluck the money off the trees

Well the money exists in both private and public hands to build motorways, tunnels and other useless infrastructure which have not achieved any of their stated ends.  Reprioritisation is needed. 

I certainly think there is a need for additional trackage - 4 tracks minimum from the city to Petrie, plus the NWTC and probably a third track to Caboolture. 

Even just ramping up all stations services in the interim for the off-peak can't be that difficult.  Better 4tph all to Caboolture than 2 tph all to Caboolture.  Then, permanent express services can be facilitated by construction of the NWTC and extra tracks.  Caboolture and Kippa-Ring expresses and long-distance/freight can use the mains between Strathpine and Northgate, with the local Strathpine or Petrie originator using what would be extended up and down subs that hook into and share tracks with Shorncliffe at Northgate.

Ultimately, rail is not going to work unless you have turn up and go everywhere in the metropolitan area.  The region's population is not getting any smaller.

It might not look like it now but IIRC there would be one definate TOD along the line at Kallangur, another TOD is being considered for Rothwell and a possible third TOD at Kingsellas Road East (It might not be a high density TOD in the end but the land surrounding the station was just given permission for a massive property development a couple years ago to Urbex that should be started once the final plans are released for that section of area. Its also why the stations construction was brought forward by a decade).

From memory this is about the only reason there are so many stations on the line.  I'm still of the view that feeders and park'n'ride are better than slowing the service down by focusing on immediate walk-up, especially when you consider how close some of the stations actually are.  You have the whole of North Lakes and Redcliffe as catchments to plug into this line already.

[somebody]

I think the first thing to do is to run more services on the existing infrastructure, not demand more!

As I have said a number of times.

[#Metro]

Trouts road is interesting because it may allow further separation of freight from passenger services.

[BrizCommuter]

A little drawing.

                       /-----------\
-----------------<     PLAT      \
                       >------------ \ -------------
----EXP BI DI--<                     \               To Caboolture
                       >--------------  \ ----------
-----------------<     PLAT            \
                       \-------------\     \
                                         \     \  
                                         To Redcliffe

That would be about the ideal, presuming you mean the Redcliffe bound is grade separated.

It is grade separated. To not grade separate this junction would go in in SE QLDs long list of infrastructure stuff-ups.

By the way, BrizCommuter sees this am peak scenario in 2016, 9tph ex-Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph ex-Redcliffe. Same as current timetable, but with Petrie service starting at Redcliffe instead.

I agree that it is the most likely.  Not convinced about it being good though.

There is a problem with adding 5,000 am peak passengers onto a line that is already rather busy. With no CRR allowing for the Shorncliffe Line to run a decent enough frequency for Caboolture/Kippa-Ring/Sunshine Coast services to skip stations Northgate to Bowen Hills, it will be difficult to timetable without causing some services to be overcrowded, or making some existing users service worse.

Examples (busiest am peak hour):

Current (each service mainly every 6 mins)
9tph ex-Caboolture/Nambour exp
9tph ex-Petrie
18tph Total

?2016 (each service mainly every 6 mins)
9tph ex-Caboolture exp
9tph ex-Kippa Ring - increased crowding
18tph Total

?2016 (each service every 9 mins)
6.7tph ex-Caboolture/Nambour exp - less service Petrie - Caboolture, ? increased crowding
6.7tph ex-Kippa Ring exp
6.7tph ex-Petrie - less service, ? increased crowding
20tph Total - no room for delays! (or run 6tph each at 18tph total - each service every 10 mins)

Any other realistic ideas?

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think the first thing to do is to run more services on the existing infrastructure, not demand more!

As I have said a number of times.

There is so much you can do with current infrastructure though. You can run 15 min Caboolture services without MBRL but that still doesn't solve problems such as the Geebung to Petrie double yellow train jam, no capacity available to run a Nambour express or closing level crossings for the shortest available time which are the major problems that the infrastructure currently has in the morning peak. As soon as MBRL goes up I bet the morning contra peak train jam will be pretty much non existant, a few new Petrie-Roma Street services added and a new 6.30isham Roma Street-Nambour thru express service to be added to the timetable at the minimum.


@ Briz, It wouldn't suprise me to see this as the biggest problem at the moment is time wasted in services responding to the green signal, gaining speed and slowly pulling into the station.

9tph Caboolture/Nambour/express
9tph Kippa Ring/all stations/express
4tph Petrie all stations

Do the same now between Petrie-Northgate in the morning the bidi across the bridge and middle track is left for the express services and in the afternoon peak the middle track and bi-di track across the bridge can be used as the all stopper track spur allowing Caboolture/Nambour/Traveltrains a clean run Northgate-Caboolture. It could work but it would be tight expecially for network expansion with 4 platforms at Petrie.

edit: cleaned things up.

[Stillwater]

Circa 2031 – Doing more with available infrastructure

Passenger train, ex Nambour, arriving at Brisbane's Central Station.

http://community.travelchinaguide.com/forum2.asp?i=49933

[Arnz]

Post-CAMCOS and Nambour/Gympie would be struggle to share on the double tracks south of Beerwah - Petrie (assuming the Lawnton-Petrie third track and Beerburrum-Landsborough double eventually gets off the ground).  

If CAMCOS does ever get built, the "city" slots, assuming CRR is built, but no Trouts corridors, may possibly be transferred from Nambour to CAMCOS, with Nambour trains converted to Beerwah shuttles.  The only "through" services to Nambour will be the 2tpd (or 3tpd?) Gympielanders (running express from Bowen Hills to Beerwah, stopping only at Caboolture) alongside the Traveltrain Tilts and lander services.

[somebody]

I think the first thing to do is to run more services on the existing infrastructure, not demand more!

As I have said a number of times.

There is so much you can do with current infrastructure though. You can run 15 min Caboolture services without MBRL but that still doesn't solve problems such as the Geebung to Petrie double yellow train jam, no capacity available to run a Nambour express or closing level crossings for the shortest available time which are the major problems that the infrastructure currently has in the morning peak. As soon as MBRL goes up I bet the morning contra peak train jam will be pretty much non existant, a few new Petrie-Roma Street services added and a new 6.30isham Roma Street-Nambour thru express service to be added to the timetable at the minimum.

Wouldn't suprise me to see as the biggest problem at the moment is time wasted in services responding to the green signal, gaining speed and slowly pulling into the station.

9tph Caboolture/Nambour/express
9tph Kippa Ring/all stations/express
4tph Petrie all stations

Between Petrie-Northgate in the morning the middle track is left for the express services which it currently is with the side platforms taking the slack for the all stoppers. In the afternoon peak the middle track and bi-di track across the bridge can be used as the Kippa Ring spur allowing Caboolture/Nambour/Traveltrains a clean run Northgate-Caboolture. It could work?

Double yellow train jam - I assume counter peak - what would change on that post-MBRL?  More appropriate stabling?

Extra infrastructure is needed in peak hour, but not so much for additional off peak services.

Any other realistic ideas?

Not that would be worth discussing again.  I agree broadly on your suggestions for options Northgate and north in 2016.

One point: 6 minute frequency = 10tph.