GHD: Public Transport in SEQ Options to deliver value and innovation ...

[#Metro]

"GHD are internationally recognised transport engineers and economists, it is not as if they are a little country group," she said.

Yes, that would be the ones that do cost-ONLY analysis, the ones that have the alignment tunnel through the Clem 7 (good luck) and through the Kurilpa bridge too. Ridiculous.

[petey3801]

Track duplication to Cleveland would also be much cheaper than this $2.5 billion (or about the same cost).

Probably cost significantly less than $2.5B i'd say... But in reality, you would only really need a couple select pieces of duplication in the short term (with the aim of full duplication in the relatively near future) to enable reliable 15min frequencies to Cleveland.

Easiest and cheapest to duplicate would be Ormiston to Cleveland (no bridgework, the two overpasses in the section already have room for another track) and Birkdale to Wellington Point (very minimal bridgework [more culverts than bridges really], overpass on city end of Wello would need work to enable a second track, but shouldn't be too difficult). These two sections would enable much more reliable running for the trains with running crosses possible.

In reality, Birkdale to Cleveland duplication really wouldn't be very difficult, there is only a small bridge across the swampy/creek thing between Wello and Ormiston plus the bridge just outside Ormiston (as well as the stuff mentioned above). Doing that should negate the need for complete duplication for a number of years while allowing reliable frequent services.

The next easiest section would be Manly to Lota, with one main bridge (across the road before Lota station) and a bit of works to get the track under the overhead bridge at Manly.

Those are all fairly simple sections of duplication really, with minimal bridgeworks required (leaves the single track Lota to Birkdale, which has multiple large bridges) with the single track remaining that shouldn't really constrain services too much in the short to meduim term (unless they build the Cleveland Solution and want metro services every couple of minutes...).

[#Metro]

Probably cost significantly less than $2.5B i'd say... But in reality, you would only really need a couple select pieces of duplication in the short term (with the aim of full duplication in the relatively near future) to enable reliable 15min frequencies to Cleveland.

Easiest and cheapest to duplicate would be Ormiston to Cleveland (no bridgework, the two overpasses in the section already have room for another track) and Birkdale to Wellington Point (very minimal bridgework [more culverts than bridges really], overpass on city end of Wello would need work to enable a second track, but shouldn't be too difficult). These two sections would enable much more reliable running for the trains with running crosses possible.

In reality, Birkdale to Cleveland duplication really wouldn't be very difficult, there is only a small bridge across the swampy/creek thing between Wello and Ormiston plus the bridge just outside Ormiston (as well as the stuff mentioned above). Doing that should negate the need for complete duplication for a number of years while allowing reliable frequent services.

The next easiest section would be Manly to Lota, with one main bridge (across the road before Lota station) and a bit of works to get the track under the overhead bridge at Manly.

Those are all fairly simple sections of duplication really, with minimal bridgeworks required (leaves the single track Lota to Birkdale, which has multiple large bridges) with the single track remaining that shouldn't really constrain services too much in the short to meduim term (unless they build the Cleveland Solution and want metro services every couple of minutes...).

Agreed. This is what the Cr does not get -- you don't need a metro to get decent frequency, you just need decent frequency!

[Stillwater]

Anthony Albanese on the Cleveland Solution: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cutprice-rail-plan-thought-bubble-albanese-20120118-1q6qs.html

[ozbob]

Anthony Albanese on the Cleveland Solution: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cutprice-rail-plan-thought-bubble-albanese-20120118-1q6qs.html

Posted on previous page of this thread, but no harm in again.  Some good comments at Brisbanetimes blog!   

[Cam]

Does anyone have an idea who the "high-profile transport figure" is that raised a third alternative of "a short rail tunnel from Morningside station to Roma Street, under New Farm and Eagle Street"?

[ozbob]

Does anyone have an idea who the "high-profile transport figure" is that raised a third alternative of "a short rail tunnel from Morningside station to Roma Street, under New Farm and Eagle Street"?

No idea, but this idea has been around a while.

[Arnz]

Which that idea is nothing more than (to quote Brizcommuter) the trainspotting fantasy file. 

Is that person proposing to move the freight on trucks, or just leave the freight line there?  The freight rail track between Morningside and Buranda will obviously still be needed.

[Gazza]

Use Chinooks?

[ozbob]

Anthony Albanese on the Cleveland Solution: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cutprice-rail-plan-thought-bubble-albanese-20120118-1q6qs.html

Posted on previous page of this thread, but no harm in again.  Some good comments at Brisbanetimes blog!   

e.g.

This is a half-baked 'thought bubble' where Cross River is a detailed and well-planned project. This is a non-descript and low-priority addition to the public transport network, where Cross River is a genuine city-building opportunity.

Commenter
    Chris
Location
    Melbourne
Date and time
    January 19, 2012, 8:55AM


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cutprice-rail-plan-thought-bubble-albanese-20120118-1q6qs.htmli

[somebody]

I thought the Clem7 tunnel vent was on the corner of Jurgens St and Logan Rd.  This proposal doesn't cross that.  Perhaps there is another, or I am mistaken?

[SurfRail]

Use Chinooks?

No, magnets.

[petey3801]

Use Chinooks?

No, magnets.

Maglev freight platforms! 

[ozbob]

Media release 19th January 2012

SEQ: THE CLEVELAND SOLUTION: THE LEVEL CROSSING CONUNDRUM

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the fact that whilst the Cleveland Solution has been touted as a cheaper alternative to Cross River Rail, what has received no mention in the SEQ Council of Mayors report is the impact it would have on level crossings (1).

RAIL Back On Track member Gavin Seipelt said:

"Currently 8 trains per hour arrive in the city from the Cleveland line per hour in peak. Each holds 1000 passengers, giving an hourly capacity of 8000."

"The Cleveland solution proposes using more compact 600 passenger trains in order to negotiate the tight turns of the proposed new tunnels. At least 14 of these trains must be run into the CBD per hour from Cleveland in order to simply match current capacity."

"However the Cleveland and Ferny Grove lines will be linked, meaning 28 trains per hour, when both directions are added together."

"What this means is that boom gates along the line will be dropping around every 2 minutes in peak periods. Gates will have barely risen before closing again for the next train, causing traffic chaos!

"In future years, as more trains along the corridor need to be run, saturation would occur.

"Whenever RAIL Back On Track has raised this very simple geometric and mathematical fact to SEQ Council of Mayors we have been met with unrelated spin quoted directly from the report, rather than an answer to the question.

"The fact is, for the Cleveland Solution to even basically match how the corridor runs today, level crossing removal is essential.

"With 17 level crossings along the Ferny Grove – Cleveland corridor and an average cost of $100-150 million per removal, it's an inescapable cost of around 2 Billion or more.

"Yet the SEQ Council of Mayors report only allocates $400 Million over the next 5 years for level crossing removal, and this money is shared across all lines!

"The important point is that the costing for Cross River Rail includes everything needed for the line to operate in the real world, and has had a full cost benefit analysis performed.

"It is misleading to say the Cleveland Solution is a better, cheaper alternative, if  additional spending, which must be done alongside the project is being  left out of the equation to make the numbers look good, and the analysis is cost only."

Reference:

1.  http://www.councilofmayorsseq.qld.gov.au/docs/Publications/COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LOW-RES.pdf

Contacts:

Gavin Seipelt
RAIL Back On Track Member

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[paulg]

I thought the Clem7 tunnel vent was on the corner of Jurgens St and Logan Rd.  This proposal doesn't cross that.  Perhaps there is another, or I am mistaken?

The vent is not on the main tunnel alignment, it is connected to it by a separate tunnel. Here is the apporximate Clem7 alignment (in pink):

[BrizCommuter]

Media release 19th January 2012

SEQ: THE CLEVELAND SOLUTION: THE LEVEL CROSSING CONUNDRUM

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the fact that whilst the Cleveland Solution has been touted as a cheaper alternative to Cross River Rail, what has received no mention in the SEQ Council of Mayors report is the impact it would have on level crossings (1).

RAIL Back On Track member Gavin Seipelt said:

"Currently 8 trains per hour arrive in the city from the Cleveland line per hour in peak. Each holds 1000 passengers, giving an hourly capacity of 8000."

"The Cleveland solution proposes using more compact 600 passenger trains in order to negotiate the tight turns of the proposed new tunnels. At least 14 of these trains must be run into the CBD per hour from Cleveland in order to simply match current capacity."

"However the Cleveland and Ferny Grove lines will be linked, meaning 28 trains per hour, when both directions are added together."

"What this means is that boom gates along the line will be dropping around every 2 minutes in peak periods. Gates will have barely risen before closing again for the next train, causing traffic chaos!

"In future years, as more trains along the corridor need to be run, saturation would occur.

"Whenever RAIL Back On Track has raised this very simple geometric and mathematical fact to SEQ Council of Mayors we have been met with unrelated spin quoted directly from the report, rather than an answer to the question.

"The fact is, for the Cleveland Solution to even basically match how the corridor runs today, level crossing removal is essential.

"With 17 level crossings along the Ferny Grove – Cleveland corridor and an average cost of $100-150 million per removal, it's an inescapable cost of around 2 Billion or more.

"Yet the SEQ Council of Mayors report only allocates $400 Million over the next 5 years for level crossing removal, and this money is shared across all lines!

"The important point is that the costing for Cross River Rail includes everything needed for the line to operate in the real world, and has had a full cost benefit analysis performed.

"It is misleading to say the Cleveland Solution is a better, cheaper alternative, if  additional spending, which must be done alongside the project is being  left out of the equation to make the numbers look good, and the analysis is cost only."

Reference:

1.  http://www.councilofmayorsseq.qld.gov.au/docs/Publications/COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LOW-RES.pdf

Contacts:

Gavin Seipelt
RAIL Back On Track Member

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

+1
Good press release.

[ozbob]

Media release 22 January 2012

SEQ: Cross River Rail bipartisan support is the way forward

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for the Cross River Rail project to be implemented as soon as possible and all parties to commit to this project of national significance.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Cross River Rail has had years of detailed work up. Compare this  to the so called  'Cleveland Solution' thought bubble(1, 2), so rushed and mediocre that the published route forgot about Kurilpa bridge! The Cleveland solution is actually a non-solution, which will cost nearly as much as Cross River Rail and only give about a quarter of the capacity benefits that Cross River Rail will deliver for the entire rail network in south-east Queensland."

"It would be a disgrace and a tragedy for Queensland, and indirectly for Australia, if petty politics by Mayors, clearly out of touch with reality jeopardise the important project which is Cross River Rail.  If you recall they were once soundly behind it, until Mr Newman left their fold."

"Cross River Rail is an all inclusive cost, properly costed, evaluated and tested. Contrast to the very sloppy and hastily drawn up Cleveland non-solution thought bubble which at first critical examination fails dismally (2)."

"Competition for Infrastructure Australia funding will now be more intense considering  Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide and Perth have major rail projects in train.  Any further delays with moving ahead with Cross River Rail could mean missing the train at Albert Street Station and gridlock for the next 50 years.  It is important that all political parties support Cross River Rail.  Not proceeding with Cross River Rail will cripple the economy of south-east Queensland as gridlock and transport failure impacts."

References:

1.   http://www.councilofmayorsseq.qld.gov.au/docs/Publications/COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LOW-RES.pdf

2.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7475.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Otto]

http://www.baysidebulletin.com.au/news/local/news/general/lobby-group-slams-rail-upgrade-report/2429531.aspx?storypage=0

Lobby group slams rail upgrade report
JUDITH KERR
23 Jan, 2012 12:00 AM
A QUEENSLAND public transport lobby group is claiming a Council of Mayors report into overhauling the state's rail network is seriously flawed and could result in a reduction in train services to Cleveland.

Rail Back on Track lobby group's Robert Dow lashed out at the councils-commissioned report.

Mr Dow said the report, compiled by engineering firm GHD, was based on false costings and would cut off the Cleveland train line from the Queensland Rail network, the Brisbane CBD and, instead, introduce a Cleveland to Ferny Grove light rail.

Federal Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese came out in support of Mr Dow, while Redland City Mayor Melva Hobson leapt to the GHD report's defence.

Mr Albanese said the GHD report was merely a "thought bubble" but Cr Hobson said the $5.2 billion in savings outlined in the report would be used for "traffic congestion busting" across the public transport system.

The GHD report, made public this month, recommends removing the Cleveland train line from the Merivale Bridge, the only Brisbane River commuter rail crossing, which is expected to hit capacity in 2016.

Councils commissioned the report to determine the feasibility of the state government's planned $7.7 billion Cross River Rail proposal, which involves building an 18km railway under Brisbane River and the CBD.

Under the state government's Cross River Rail project, announced in March 2010, the Cleveland line would remain on the Queensland Rail network and four new underground inner-city stations would be built.

Mr Dow said the councils' GHD report was wrong to claim its "Cleveland Solution" would overhaul the rail system for $5.2 billion less than the state government was proposing.

"There are 17 level crossings and five pedestrian crossings on the Cleveland line that would need to be realigned so they would not affect traffic flow and the cost of that work alone would be $2 billion," Mr Dow said.

"The GHD report also failed to include the cost of buying 70 rail vehicles, which would cost in the order of $1.5 billion.

"Other works, track duplications and upgrading to light metro signalling, would cost a further $1 billion.

"Add to that the cost of tunnels, bridges and stations and you are getting up close to the $7 billion the government is proposing," Mr Dow said.

Mr Dow said the GHD report also "glossed over" details of possible service reductions to Cleveland under the light-rail solution.

He said Cleveland-bound trains accounted for 38 per cent of services on the cross-river line, shared by Beenleigh and Gold Coast trains, and axing them would not increase capacity by 70 per cent.

Cr Hobson said the Cleveland Solution in the Council of Mayors report provided $5.2 billion in savings and included the cost of duplicating the train line, which was estimated using 2011 industry rates.

"For Redland residents, this proposal will mean people working in George Street and at QUT in the city will be able to get off at a train station at Gardens Point," Cr Hobson said.

"The light rail system will also allow people from the other side of the river to connect directly to gardens Point from Park Road.

"People from Redlands will also be able to travel by train directly to the 'Gabba for the Lions matches and the cricket," Cr Hobson said.

* You can see a copy of the GHD report at www.councilofmayorsseq.qld. gov.au/docs/Publications/ COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LO W-RES.pdf

[Mr X]

  good to see scruitiny where scruitiny is due!