Variations

[#Metro]

There just isn't room in the CBD for everything to go down Adelaide St or Queen St in peak hour.

[Gazza]

One of the goals of PT is sustainability too. How is it sustainable to run an extra vehicle over 23km route to save a few people a short 10 min walk.
If people are genuinely opposed to using their legs, they can take the loop bus to get down there (6bph)

What's this about "pressure" on the route? If it takes a slower route to the city then it will be avoided by pax, thereby not reliving pressure much at all.

My point about an Oxley city precincts service is that it illustrates that users of the rail network, and many other bus areas, happily get along without the option of being dropped off at parliaments doorstep.
The 136 (And similar) are infrequent, the routes like it could be dropped down anywhere in Brisbane, what is the process of determining what areas get a city precincts service, and which don't? Where does the 'crowd' that uses them live?
Why favour a random area out of many for this treatment. Seems like a very roundabout way to win pax.
Say someone living on the 175/174 corridor.....No city precincts option at all. Guess they are stuffed!

For the dollars spent, these sort of routes benefit very few people, and bleed money away from areas which have no good services at all. A double whammy.
With the 136, its already in an area covered by the CFN, so  its 23km of overlapping basically, at 2bph. Think of how this could be redeployed, eg 11km of 4bph. Pool this together with the resources of other equally dumb and crappy routes and theres your Bulimba BUZ  or whatever all of  sudden.
In terms of patronage if removed, some would shift to other routes, very few would abandon PT all together due to the lack of plentiful and cheap parking at the Parliament end.
But more users overall would be gained on the network through the route in the new area which has had resources pooled to be up to a good standard.

[somebody]

Disagree with almost every word!

Firstly, rail users unhappily accept the poor location of the CBD railway stations.  And a number drive in part for this reason.

Secondly it's not really a random area, it is in fact the busiest bus corridor in Brisbane AIUI, containing two BUZes, both of which are soon to be full time bigger buses.

Thirdly, it's not very many dollars spent to run 10 trips per weekday.

Fourthly, who said "pressure"?


Finally, this route does OK, why the hating?  Surely it should be more directed to some of the other routes which fall short of the mark, particularly in the PM peak.

[#Metro]

Lakewood? I don't see a rail station near there.

Thirdly, it's not very many dollars spent to run 10 trips per weekday.

Disagree.
Cost of buses = $500 000 or more, each
Cost of labour = minimum shift 3 hours (or is it four)

That's a lot of money for just a few runs each day.

I'd hate to say this but that entire area is perfect for feeding the beenleigh line. There are six train stations within that conurbuanation. SIX.
Except that the trains are ridiculously slow and not frequent enough.

[somebody]

You said it yourself, the rail line is too slow to justify feeders here.  It is also lacking in capacity.

[Mr X]

If I am going to the city from Parkinson, why the heck would I want to trudge 50-60km/h through places such as Fairfield on an overcrowded all stopper Beenleigh train?? It's such a wasteful and indirect way to go to the city when the bus goes straight to the busway via Mains Rd and pretty much express to the city at 90km/h, stopping only at Griffith, Mater, South Bank and Cultural Centre.

However a link to stations such as Coopers Plains would be good for accessing the Gold Coast line  

[Jonas Jade]

Cost of buses = $500 000 or more, each
Cost of labour = minimum shift 3 hours (or is it four)

That's a lot of money for just a few runs each day.

If you don't run the route(s), you're likely going to have to add the capacity elsewhere - and the cost will probably be the same/similar (we already have the buses, and the staff will still be required to drive the extra services on the other line), unless you're advocating just deleting the line which would exacerbate congestion on the trunk routes - remembering that these are peak only services.

[Gazza]

My mistake Simon, but Jonas-Jade used the word "relief", not "pressure". Point still stands though.

My strategy for serving that part of the CBD would be to pick at least couple of BUZes or a certain corridor out of the many (Or ones that don't exist yet) and have them with City Precincts as their termination point. Area then gets a full time 5min peak service, and people wanting this as their final destination change buses at some point. Having a few random buses from a few random suburbs makes no sense.

I'd certainly hope when Albert St station opens that the need for the 136 etc is reassessed, given the improvement in access to the southern CBD.
And yes, while 10 trips per day might not seem much, multiplied across the network we have a lot of resources wasted in this manner.

I still think its dumb. If you were presented with a blank map of that part of Brisbane and no prejudice with knowledge of the current network, it is unlikely someone would come up with that specific route/frequency/span today.

I mean really? people accept a slower trip to the CBD and infrequency, to avoid the walk at the CBD end compared to the 130 and 150?

Genuine question, but how does having one route out of many on a major corridor going off to its own location help with the city stop locations issue?

Jonas: Re Deleting the route. The thing is many niche routes going in and out of the CBD are half empty, so the CBD capacity issue comes into play.

[somebody]

Genuine question, but how does having one route out of many on a major corridor going off to its own location help with the city stop locations issue?

It doesn't, but at least in this case is sufficiently distant from the other routes to at least save walking time for people that use it.  It does help (a little) with congestion on the 130 & 140.  I think if you carved off the Garden City deviation this route could do better than present.  Maybe I'm wrong.

Jonas: Re Deleting the route. The thing is many niche routes going in and out of the CBD are half empty, so the CBD capacity issue comes into play.

That's really the strength of this route.  It doesn't use Adelaide St or QSBS so reduces pressure on the major CBD stops.

When I've seen it pass it has had reasonable loadings.  Leave it be!

[Gazza]

But with these loadings, what is your definition of reasonable, and where did you see it?

[Jonas Jade]

My strategy for serving that part of the CBD would be to pick at least couple of BUZes or a certain corridor out of the many (Or ones that don't exist yet) and have them with City Precincts as their termination point. Area then gets a full time 5min peak service, and people wanting this as their final destination change buses at some point. Having a few random buses from a few random suburbs makes no sense.

Good idea. A simplification of having one or two routes being specifically "City Precincts" would make things more legible.

I still think its dumb. If you were presented with a blank map of that part of Brisbane and no prejudice with knowledge of the current network, it is unlikely someone would come up with that specific route/frequency/span
today.

Maybe not the *exact* same routes but you probably would come up with some peak only coverage routes to fill in some gaps. I don't think many routes any one would come up with exactly the same.

Like Simon says, it could probably do without the Garden City leg.

[somebody]

But with these loadings, what is your definition of reasonable, and where did you see it?

About 2/3 seated load.  Better than almost every O/B rocket leaving from Adelaide St.

[Gazza]

Still think its a dumb idea in general. We've got 17 BUZes Plus say another 20 possible routes that could be BUZed in the future.

Are they all important enough to warrant a City Precincts variant?

What determines importance (And I'd like an actual answer to that)

Seems a pretty unrealistic thing to aim for...Cant provide a single seat journey to everywhere!

The whole deal about walking being a disincentive to patronage I think is drastically overstated. Its about 630m from QSBS to Parliament. Any normal person should have no issue with that, you'd only lose a handful of particularly lazy people.

I work in in the SW1 Development, and from the front door of my office, to Cultural Center, it's in fact further than the previous example, 650m.
And heaps do the daily walk from CC or South Bris (620m from there FYI)
OMG, gimme some "South Brisbane Precincts" buses please, everyone's legs are broken, we'd get heaps of extra pax by doing that!!!  

I'll be clear that I'm not opposed to having buses go there from a capacity standpoint, but as mentioned earlier, have a family of BUZes that all terminate down there.

[Mr X]

It's called the 202 

[somebody]

What determines importance (And I'd like an actual answer to that)

Secondly it's not really a random area, it is in fact the busiest bus corridor in Brisbane AIUI, containing two BUZes, both of which are soon to be full time bigger buses.

I could understand it if you were getting annoyed about 129+138 (as seems practically certain), or 151+153 or 156+157 or the 45x Riverhills via Jindalee City Precincts or the 344+343 (which are very close) or 133+139 on much of Mains Rd/Pinelands Rd.

I think we need to agree to disagree.

[dwb]

They should be looking at their worst 10 routes every quarter for culling!

Altho one wonders what happens when they try... and Ipswich again?

[somebody]

They should be looking at their worst 10 routes every quarter for culling!

Altho one wonders what happens when they try... and Ipswich again?

When did I say that?

[dwb]

They should be looking at their worst 10 routes every quarter for culling!

Altho one wonders what happens when they try... and Ipswich again?

When did I say that?

Lol, you didn't, I did... it was a bit of (shared) inner monologue!

[Gazza]

Would be nice if they had just splashed out on a few minibuses for Ipswich and set up a not for profit trust to run them (And similar for other areas that only warrant paratransit)
Would have been a lot nicer than using taxis.
I'm not opposed to on demand PT for really low usage areas, but the way they did it messed it, and has probably killed what is otherwise a successful model from overseas.

Secondly it's not really a random area, it is in fact the busiest bus corridor in Brisbane AIUI, containing two BUZes, both of which are soon to be full time bigger buses......
I think we need to agree to disagree.

I think it's very telling that, on this corridor, between the 140 and the 130 bundle of routes there are only 6 136 arrivals in the morning peak.
Compare that over the same period of operation there are 105* arrivals that all use the normal QSBS/Elizabeth St arrival points.

I find it difficult to believe that, on our busiest bus coridoor, all QUT and Parliament bound passengers are contained on just 6% of the services.
(*Not counting bullet 142)

[somebody]

You can continue to focus on what is very small beer if you like.

[Gazza]

You can continue to focus on what is very small beer if you like.

That's not a counter argument to any of these key points.
-Vast Majority of pax use the Queen St area to arrive in the CBD.
-Pax at other final destinations regularlt walk 600m or more from their stop/station without a 2nd thought.
-Off peak, night time etc, pax walk to QUT lectures etc, without relying on a full time direct bus to its doorstep.
-If even the busiest corridor can only justify a fraction of services doing this niche run, what reason is there for this niche run to be funded anywhere?

The point is it's representative of one of the problems with how things get planned and run, and we'll never get anywhere if the route planning process gets throttled in this manner.

Just annoys me that there can be otherwise really good proposals made to update the network, and they get quashed compeltey because of silly non reasons like 600m being too far to walk, or pax doing one journey combination in the millions possible within brisbane cant climb stairs to interchange, and therefore the route has to stay the same/ it is actually mathematically possible to do a network that fulfils these things.

[#Metro]

I agree with Gazza. There seems to be a bazillion routes everywhere. So, you want an accurate map of peak hour rockets and variations - get a map of brisbane and then dump a bowl of spaghetti on it.

When I see these rockets zoom past, I often see

1. They are carrying a lot of air
2. I have no idea where they stop

Apparently this is called "choice" - why can't the rockets just mirror the underlying parent bus route except skip stops/take shortcuts???

[somebody]

You are still ignoring the point that the Garden City deviation no doubt reduces the loadings on this route, just because it doesn't suit your argument.

I have far bigger issues with the numerous rockets which leave Adelaide St half full because of ridiculous stop locations and numerous passengers which traverse the Cultural Centre in the PM and don't want to.

Leave this route there!  Using different kerb space is a good enough reason to justify its existence.

-Pax at other final destinations regularlt walk 600m or more from their stop/station without a 2nd thought.

Says you. Ever thought walking distance could be a reason why 45% (IIRC) of people who work in the CBD don't use PT for their usual trip to work/study?

Just annoys me that there can be otherwise really good proposals made to update the network, and they get quashed compeltey because of silly non reasons like 600m being too far to walk, or pax doing one journey combination in the millions possible within brisbane cant climb stairs to interchange, and therefore the route has to stay the same/ it is actually mathematically possible to do a network that fulfils these things.

That's not a non reason at all.

[#Metro]

And I would also suggest that that most pre-paid buses be gotten rid of. Most people are on GoCard now, seems silly to have two separate bus routes for the one job!

[#Metro]

Says you. Ever thought walking distance could be a reason why 45% (IIRC) of people who work in the CBD don't use PT for their usual trip to work/study?

Walking will not kill them and in a place like the CBD is entirely appropriate to walk such distances.

I would suggest that 45% has something to do with King George Square Carpark and salary packaging arrangements as well as free parking.

[Gazza]

I think that 45% includes fringe areas too. Eg Milton, South Brisbane etc.

You are still ignoring the point that the Garden City deviation no doubt reduces the loadings on this route, just because it doesn't suit your argument.

So then the route goes from being 95% similar to 99% similar to the others.

I have far bigger issues with the numerous rockets which leave Adelaide St half full because of ridiculous stop locations

Maybe these rockets exist to serve Creek St/Riverside pax who dont want to walk 667m to QSBS  

[somebody]

Maybe these rockets exist to serve Creek St/Riverside pax who dont want to walk 667m to QSBS  

Don't be daft.

[Jonas Jade]

I don't really care about the walking thing, I think the primary bonus of these "variations" is that it doesn't go via Cultural Centre and take up stop space - thereby reducing "pressure" - which is/can be critical during peak.

If you're going to introduce a variation to achieve this goal, you may as well make it a completely different route - this avoids some of the confusion and congestion associated with the PM rocket stop issue - these stops are far enough removed that they have a clear catchment and people aren't just going to go to Queen St.

While the routes may not have been created with this in mind, it will become more important, or has everyone already forgotten the Adelaide St bus tunnel and Cultural centre congestion?

-Vast Majority of pax use the Queen St area to arrive in the CBD

Maybe the reason for this is because the vast majority of services go there - doesn't necessarily mean that's where everyone is *actually* going - especially in peak.

[Gazza]

Maybe these rockets exist to serve Creek St/Riverside pax who dont want to walk 667m to QSBS  

Don't be daft.

Well, you are the one supporting separate routes to reduce walk distances.
How is taking away a route from riverside ANY different?

[somebody]

[Gazza]

Again, that isn't a counterargument.

Plenty of times you've made proposals to take routes in and out of of QSBS etc, and I'm cool with that. But a side effect of any of these changes is that walking increases or decreases for some inevitably.

What Im saying is, why shift the goalposts on the issue?

[somebody]

No one is shifting the goalposts.

Re: moving in/out of QSBS, it's a bit different if you are referring to Adelaide St vs QSBS as opposed to city centre and city precincts.

You may note that I've previously commented that the 206 should serve Buranda.  That would give a City Precincts service to users of the 119, 120, 170, 171, 176, 179, 180, 181 via interchange.  Combined with making the 156 or 157 a City Precincts service to replace removing it from Garden City and a Woolloongabba City Precincts service the entire south side would be covered with such a service.

This conversation has really gotten old.  All the points you have raised have pretty much already been answered.

I'll check with ozbob about a thread lock.

Says you. Ever thought walking distance could be a reason why 45% (IIRC) of people who work in the CBD don't use PT for their usual trip to work/study?

Walking will not kill them and in a place like the CBD is entirely appropriate to walk such distances.

I would suggest that 45% has something to do with King George Square Carpark and salary packaging arrangements as well as free parking.

FWIW, I think it's NSW which targets 400m walk at the city end and 800m walk at the residential end.  I've read that somewhere.  Obviously walking distance isn't the only factor.

Parking cheaper than it should be is obviously a factor.

[dwb]

You can continue to focus on what is very small beer if you like.

That's not a counter argument to any of these key points.
-Vast Majority of pax use the Queen St area to arrive in the CBD.
-Pax at other final destinations regularlt walk 600m or more from their stop/station without a 2nd thought.
-Off peak, night time etc, pax walk to QUT lectures etc, without relying on a full time direct bus to its doorstep.
-If even the busiest corridor can only justify a fraction of services doing this niche run, what reason is there for this niche run to be funded anywhere?

The point is it's representative of one of the problems with how things get planned and run, and we'll never get anywhere if the route planning process gets throttled in this manner.

Just annoys me that there can be otherwise really good proposals made to update the network, and they get quashed compeltey because of silly non reasons like 600m being too far to walk, or pax doing one journey combination in the millions possible within brisbane cant climb stairs to interchange, and therefore the route has to stay the same/ it is actually mathematically possible to do a network that fulfils these things.

If there were some 'proper' facility for 'city precincts' then I think it would be quite viable to dump a whole bunch of routes there (and not service QSBS at all). We need to think multiple termini in the cbd area, not everything should be going QSBS!!

[dwb]

I agree with Gazza. There seems to be a bazillion routes everywhere. So, you want an accurate map of peak hour rockets and variations - get a map of brisbane and then dump a bowl of spaghetti on it.

When I see these rockets zoom past, I often see

1. They are carrying a lot of air
2. I have no idea where they stop

Apparently this is called "choice" - why can't the rockets just mirror the underlying parent bus route except skip stops/take shortcuts???

yes i too agree that rockets, or at least how they are set up are a problem.

i personally think it would be best to have rockets colocated with buz, and have them express to about 1/3 out. I also think there should be another shuttle, same route to 1/3 out... so each buz corridor in fact has 3 variations, short, full, express (first stop last stop of short route)

[dwb]

I have far bigger issues with the numerous rockets which leave Adelaide St half full because of ridiculous stop locations and numerous passengers which traverse the Cultural Centre in the PM and don't want to.

-Pax at other final destinations regularlt walk 600m or more from their stop/station without a 2nd thought.

Says you. Ever thought walking distance could be a reason why 45% (IIRC) of people who work in the CBD don't use PT for their usual trip to work/study?

The system should not pander to this, 600m walk is TOTALLY acceptable.

[dwb]

And I would also suggest that that most pre-paid buses be gotten rid of. Most people are on GoCard now, seems silly to have two separate bus routes for the one job!

agree

[dwb]

I don't really care about the walking thing, I think the primary bonus of these "variations" is that it doesn't go via Cultural Centre and take up stop space - thereby reducing "pressure" - which is/can be critical during peak.

If you're going to introduce a variation to achieve this goal, you may as well make it a completely different route - this avoids some of the confusion and congestion associated with the PM rocket stop issue - these stops are far enough removed that they have a clear catchment and people aren't just going to go to Queen St.

While the routes may not have been created with this in mind, it will become more important, or has everyone already forgotten the Adelaide St bus tunnel and Cultural centre congestion?

-Vast Majority of pax use the Queen St area to arrive in the CBD

Maybe the reason for this is because the vast majority of services go there - doesn't necessarily mean that's where everyone is *actually* going - especially in peak.

If we had any politicians (or even bureaucrats) with any balls the Cultural Centre busway station mess could be fixed in a month... all that would be needed is someone to find a reason to dig up part of Melbourne St, temporarily closing it to traffic, while simultaneously adjusting the busway light sequencing. Do it for a week or two and then all of a sudden you've got your public pressure that you need to close Melbourne St. Of course you'd also need a month baseline data prior to doing this on average waits, car numbers, bus numbers etc.

[dwb]

With a pedestrian bridge at the end of Edward and Alice Sts to Kangaroo Point, you could have a major new "Cultural Centre Busway Station" at Kangaroo Point... and you route a bunch of routes via there to terminate in the Valley. It would be a similar or shorter walk to Eagle St and given sufficient shade on the bridge would be highly popular.

The bridge would likely cost $30-90mil, however last year Translink spent $30mil on park and ride benefiting 1200 car drivers, so I don't see why they couldn't make this expenditure stack up.

[somebody]

The system should not pander to this, 600m walk is TOTALLY acceptable.

Central to Parliament is 1.4km.  Link: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=Parliament+House,+Brisbane,+Queensland&daddr=central+railway+station,+qld&hl=en&sll=-27.477455,153.02747&sspn=0.019837,0.0209&geocode=Fb_CXP4ddgIfCSFYuyXXbEd8ZQ%3BFX7nXP4d2f8eCSEVRDRs3XVpNg&oq=Queensland+par&vpsrc=0&dirflg=w&mra=ls&t=h&z=17

Roma St to Parliament is 1.3km.  Link: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=Parliament+House,+Brisbane,+Queensland&daddr=roma+st+railway+station,+qld&hl=en&ll=-27.470744,153.023007&spn=0.009919,0.01045&sll=-27.468697,153.023736&sspn=0.009919,0.01045&geocode=Fb_CXP4ddgIfCSFYuyXXbEd8ZQ%3BFa_oXP4dzeIeCSnJbqMKAVqRazHtAYp6yf5zow&vpsrc=0&dirflg=w&mra=ls&t=h&z=17

I think that is too far.

850m Felix St to QSBS is an edge case. 

[dwb]

For work, I think 1.4km is acceptable as well, given the density of locations and the frequency of routes, people know this fixed time and take account of it... sure (some) students at QUT whinge a bit, but most deal with it.

But, I was talking about a different new facility, that would be within a 500m walk...

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=207512120523041600887.0004b64af8c519c24c39d