Bayside & Redlands bus services

[SurfRail]

I don't have a problem with the fares. I don't have a problem with the fare increases either. I live near a busway (I moved so as not to put up with rubbish rail and pay taxi fares all the time), I rarely wait more than 30 seconds the bus is there when I can practically go almost anywhere on it (bar Bulimba and Centenary Suburbs and suburbs with rail). And I am happy to pay for that level of service.

I think there is real potential to overcook and overcomplicate and overtweak the fare system. What we have got right now is a simple system. Yes it costs money. Yes, rail services have been almost totally neglected and that is really irritating people because the fares are going up but they are not feeling the benefits, unlike bus users (which have excellent mobility - only really Bulimba and Centenary suburbs plus 359 and GCL routes to add to have an almost free compass range of movement). Differential peak/off-peak fare pricing is coming into force soon, which takes the discount to 20%.

I am almost entirely happy with the fare system as it stands, the zone system I am happy with, the only thing that really really irritates me is the rail service frequency and the fact that bulimba and centenary, along with the entire system are blackspots.

Well, that is the view of somebody living in the Brisbane LGA.  For somebody in one of the neighbouring cities where the fares are identical for the same distance and service density is nowhere near up to spec (Gold Coast Highway corridor and routes 555 and 600 excepted), it is rather a different story.  I would like to see some service improvements for the other 50% of the population on "main" routes (eg 250, 270, 272, 515, 534, 545, 550, 560, 572, 610, 615, 620, 640, 660, 680, 690, 706, 709, 715, 745, 750, 761, 765) etc before accepting TransLink's policy as being efficacious in any way, especially when the most recent numbers show that the current price path is not actually working to its stated end.

[#Metro]

Its not just relating to people living in the city. Its all great and fantastic if your travelling on concession and living close to the city with every bus route in Brisbane heading to it but what about those that live outside of the city. Chermside is still pretty close to the city yet it still gets hourly and two hourly services feeding into it. How about someone living in Bray Park catching the train to Strathpine to go to Westfield Strathpine. What about the people that use the 2 hour frequency 336/337 to go shopping at Westfield Chermside or Aspley Hypermarket.

Yes, in this case I actually agree with you here. But people aren't catching these services because the frequency is terrible. The cost of time is far far above the cost of the fares, so even if you made the ticket prices on these services ZERO (hmm, that's probably what they're worth anyway they're that bad), they still would not get much patronage, because the quality of that service is so bad. So would it really make such a huge difference? I'd actually like to hear TL's view on this.

These services are coverage services - except for rail which should be decent frequency and scope of hours.

Well, that is the view of somebody living in the Brisbane LGA.  For somebody in one of the neighbouring cities where the fares are identical for the same distance and service density is nowhere near up to spec (Gold Coast Highway corridor and routes 555 and 600 excepted), it is rather a different story.  I would like to see some service improvements for the other 50% of the population on "main" routes (eg 250, 270, 272, 515, 534, 545, 550, 560, 572, 610, 615, 620, 640, 660, 680, 690, 706, 709, 715, 745, 750, 761, 765) etc before accepting TransLink's policy as being efficacious in any way, especially when the most recent numbers show that the current price path is not actually working to its stated end.

This is true. But on the other hand you're going to get the light rail and soon enough your bus system will be restructured so while it is pretty awful right now that will change.

I went on route 250 yesterday. This is the most crazy route I have ever been on, it must trump route 414 Safari and 105 Tour de Yeronga. This bus actaully goes all the way to Victoria point, and passes Cleveland train station. It takes over an hour on this bus, my bum was very sore after riding this bus for sooo long. Due to the absolutely extreme length of this route, making this service high frequency would be hugely expensive. Just saying!

[SurfRail]

I went on route 250 yesterday. This is the most crazy route I have ever been on, it must trump route 414 Safari and 105 Tour de Yeronga. This bus actaully goes all the way to Victoria point, and passes Cleveland train station. It takes over an hour on this bus, my bum was very sore after riding this bus for sooo long. Due to the absolutely extreme length of this route, making this service high frequency would be hugely expensive. Just saying!

You would also have noticed that it is far from a pick-up only route towards Brisbane and set-down only away from Brisbane, ie doing too many jobs at once, which is what most private operator services are like except the few which are reasonably sensible.  My discussions with TransLink lead me to believe they are far too political about things, which results in situations like the 21/740 duplication, circuitous routes even for "redone" services and a reticence to do something good policy-wise.  (The issue is money, and you can't boot-strap these improvements solely from fares considering the services don't exist to stimulate good farebox recovery to begin with.)

My own personal view is it should be:

- 250 - originates at Cleveland, BUZ standard, bus priority the whole way (bus lanes on Shore St/Finucane Rd and eventually busway to Capalaba), does not divert via Carindale
- 270 - originates at Victoria Point, terminates at Carindale, 15 minute daylight headway
- 280 - current form, slightly better frequency to encourage people from Victoria Point to use this as a means of accessing the busway and the city
- 290 - covers the Redland Bay to Cleveland portion of the existing 250 for local journeys, 15 minute daylight headway

STB and others no doubt have a different view, but I earnestly believe the 250 is too long to do its job reliably.  I have never seen one run on time, even at weekends.  Nobody needs a single seat journey from the CBD to south of Victoria Point, it is nearly 2 hours doing it that way.

(I would even go further and get rid of the peak hour services, by just hubbing them into Victoria Point/Cleveland/Capalaba/Chandler and running these 4 services more intensively in the peak, but that is probably too sensible and therefore would raise massive objections...)

[#Metro]

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/services-and-timetables/buses/route-250

[HappyTrainGuy]

Question is why are there still bus services that go from Victoria Point to the City when there is a heavy rail line available?

[#Metro]

Ask STB!

[SurfRail]

Question is why are there still bus services that go from Victoria Point to the City when there is a heavy rail line available?

It is much faster, and there are significant trip attractors around such as Carindale.  Cleveland is very much out of the way.

You may as well ask why the 130/140 etc do not terminate at Altandi - it makes little sense to feed rail simply for the sake of it.

Few people would actually need to travel directly to the city outside of peak times from this far out, so I will agree that services like the 270 make little sense in their current form (why not run every 15 minutes but just as far as Carindale where all the other high-frequency services end up?)

[#Metro]

It is much faster, and there are significant trip attractors around such as Carindale.  Cleveland is very much out of the way.

How is it much faster? Maybe I have misread the timetable but the bus and train take roughly the same time to reach Cleveland.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Going by the timetable its slower..... alot slower. Leaving the city around midday the train departs at 11.48, 7 minutes later the bus departs. Train arrives at 12.50 with the bus arriving 27 minutes later at 1.17. The train takes about 62 minutes compared to the bus taking 82 minutes. I don't know the loads pre Carindale but I think having a loop feeding/terminating at interchange points would be better option and could also raise the issue of more frequent services in the Capalaba-Cleveland-Victoria Point area as buses aren't wasting time in the Brisbane CBD. Similar to the 680 (Which should be interesting to see the loads prior to the Kippa Ring rail line).

[Gazza]

It is much faster, and there are significant trip attractors around such as Carindale.  Cleveland is very much out of the way.

Out of interest, how much of the money spent running Redlands buses from Carindale to the city, could go towards paying for small improvements (Signalling upgrades, curve easing etc etc) to the Cleveland line to make it even faster?

[Otto]

Anyone who takes the 250 from Redland Bay or 250/270 from Vic Pt to travel to the City is nuts !!!
The 281/280* is much quicker....

* 280 requires changing at Griffith Uni

EDIT : I live at Redland Bay and use Veolia 280/281/279 to travel to the City... Wouldn't be seen dead taking the 250 on its cooks tour...

[#Metro]

So buses terminating at Carindale? Boost frequency that way?

It is an ENORMOUS route for a bus.

Hmm...

[Gazza]

My world view is that to start with, it should be Chermside (North), Garden City (South), Carindale (East) and  Indooropilly (West) as the basis for a trunk and feeder system.
Unless you are a particularly important origin/destination outside those points, buses should terminate, and people change.

[#Metro]

I think all these interchanges will require expansion, unless some way is found to reduce dwell times at stops.

[Gazza]

Well, Carindale and Chermside are due for full rebuilds when the Busway reaches them anyway, and the station design seems to have two sets of platforms, presumably for terminating services and through running ones.

[#Metro]

There is space across the road at Carindale. The busway stations could be build before the actual busway reaches them. I'm a bit surprised actually that a lot of these interchanges are so busy. Maybe if dwells were cut they'd have higher capacity? If cultural centre has 9000 pphd, and only 2 platforms, then surely the throughput at these interchange stations can be increased too?

[somebody]

Anyone who takes the 250 from Redland Bay or 250/270 from Vic Pt to travel to the City is nuts !!!
The 281/280* is much quicker....

* 280 requires changing at Griffith Uni

EDIT : I live at Redland Bay and use Veolia 280/281/279 to travel to the City... Wouldn't be seen dead taking the 250 on its cooks tour...

Hmm, then terminate 250 at Carindale and extend the 280 into the CBD?  Downside would be severing the Capalaba-CBD connection I guess.

[SurfRail]

It is much faster, and there are significant trip attractors around such as Carindale.  Cleveland is very much out of the way.

How is it much faster? Maybe I have misread the timetable but the bus and train take roughly the same time to reach Cleveland.

270, 280 and peak hour services, NOT the 250 obviously.

[STB]

I went on route 250 yesterday. This is the most crazy route I have ever been on, it must trump route 414 Safari and 105 Tour de Yeronga. This bus actaully goes all the way to Victoria point, and passes Cleveland train station. It takes over an hour on this bus, my bum was very sore after riding this bus for sooo long. Due to the absolutely extreme length of this route, making this service high frequency would be hugely expensive. Just saying!

You would also have noticed that it is far from a pick-up only route towards Brisbane and set-down only away from Brisbane, ie doing too many jobs at once, which is what most private operator services are like except the few which are reasonably sensible.  My discussions with TransLink lead me to believe they are far too political about things, which results in situations like the 21/740 duplication, circuitous routes even for "redone" services and a reticence to do something good policy-wise.  (The issue is money, and you can't boot-strap these improvements solely from fares considering the services don't exist to stimulate good farebox recovery to begin with.)

My own personal view is it should be:

- 250 - originates at Cleveland, BUZ standard, bus priority the whole way (bus lanes on Shore St/Finucane Rd and eventually busway to Capalaba), does not divert via Carindale
- 270 - originates at Victoria Point, terminates at Carindale, 15 minute daylight headway
- 280 - current form, slightly better frequency to encourage people from Victoria Point to use this as a means of accessing the busway and the city
- 290 - covers the Redland Bay to Cleveland portion of the existing 250 for local journeys, 15 minute daylight headway

STB and others no doubt have a different view, but I earnestly believe the 250 is too long to do its job reliably.  I have never seen one run on time, even at weekends.  Nobody needs a single seat journey from the CBD to south of Victoria Point, it is nearly 2 hours doing it that way.

(I would even go further and get rid of the peak hour services, by just hubbing them into Victoria Point/Cleveland/Capalaba/Chandler and running these 4 services more intensively in the peak, but that is probably too sensible and therefore would raise massive objections...)

Firstly not diverting the 250 into Carindale would be a major error.  Carindale is the one of the most popular destinations along the 250 route currently, if you want to empty a bus you'll do it at Carindale, especially on the weekends.  So, no, the 250 needs to remain heading into Carindale and most of these passengers aren't originating at Capalaba, they are coming from Thornlands, Alexandra Hills (both popular locations for the 250) and they are heading to Capalaba, Carindale and to a slightly lesser extent, the city.

The biggest issue with terminating the 250 at Cleveland is that the majority of the patronage comes from Thornlands and Alexandra Hills.  You can have a near fully seated load at Alexandra Hills and Capalaba and if you stay on the bus to find out where they come from, you'll find that they are coming from Finucane Rd and Cleveland-Redland Bay Rd.  I can definately note off the most popular bus stops where you are pretty much guaranteed to stop for passengers along those sections, including all stops between Cleveland Shops and South St, The Red Shop (Finucane Rd & Vienna Rd), Alexandra Hills Shops and the TAFE.

By the way, a 250/290 was looked at by TransLink back in 2007 but was worked out that it would be more expensive to split the route than to maintain the route and boost the frequency on the existing route, this was because you would need to add extra services earlier and later to maintain a connection to the 250 at Cleveland.  Hence the route has remained as is, and for simplicity sake with a very picky public out here, I'd strongly suggest that the 250 remains as it is.  Yes it's a long route but the people out here did ask for it and they are very happy with the route (bar some timetabling fat in it at the moment which will be sorted out in February - the fat in the timetable is showing quite a bit now as the current timetable was built to cope with the paper tickets, building patronage and traffic conditions at the time in 2007/08).  You will find the 250 does run on time at least 90% of the time, even in peak hour I've seen it and recorded it arrive perfectly on time at Capalaba and Cleveland.  However it does dwell a bit at Carindale and The Sleeman Centre due to that pre-mentioned fat in the timetable.

The 270 has lesser demand between Victoria Point and Capalaba and along that section at least would only really support a 30 minute frequency which is what it will be getting in February to create a 15 minute frequency between Carindale and Capalaba.  And it's damn well needed, with standing loads common at the moment between Capalaba and Carindale, even on weekends - although we're yet to see a decent upgrade of weekend services and I don't think that will be coming in the near future unfortunately.

One of the problems I've picked up with the 280 is that the folks prefer the 250 over the 280 as not only does it service more destinations, and lets them stay on the one bus - popular with oldies and infrequent users, but the 280 with it running hourly makes it difficult to work out (at least for the casual user) which bus you need to catch out of the city and at what time to make the connection with the 280 at Eight Mile Plains.  From my observations, the majority catching the 280 are only going as far as Garden City, only a few younger more switched on users catch the 280 to continue to the city.  The older long term users and infrequent users tend to prefer the 250/270 over the 280 to get to the city, even though it takes longer for them to do it, it's more the predictability of the 250/270 that makes it attractive to them.  They know that they can catch the 250 and it will get them to the city without having to change buses.

At the moment the most popular bus route hands down is route 250, followed by route 270 and route 280.  Interestingly, the 281 which was dismissed by peak hour commuters back in 2005 (they wanted to continue going via Capalaba to get to the city), picked up that the 281 was quicker and for a time there the 281 was overloaded until the 279 came online which both split the Victoria Pt passengers from the Redland Bay passengers but also eased the loads.  They both tend to carry fully seated loads each now.  The 4:05pm ex Elizabeth St 279 is one that is known to carry standing loads ex Garden City and fully seated loads out of the city.  I've caught it a several times, and almost everyday when I was living in Victoria Pt back in 2008/09 and it's always fairly packed.

[somebody]

I think that the cost of extending the 280 to the CBD wouldn't be much.  You have to spend money to make money.  Interchange is alright heading inbound, as STB points out it's heading outbound that the risk of missing your connection would be very annoying.

The current 250 route between Buranda and Redland Bay makes sense to me.  I won't say anything about the inner part.

Doesn't the 270 mostly terminate at Capalaba, is that planned to extend to Carindale?  That would seem to make sense.

[STB]

I think that the cost of extending the 280 to the CBD wouldn't be much.  You have to spend money to make money.  Interchange is alright heading inbound, as STB points out it's heading outbound that the risk of missing your connection would be very annoying.

The current 250 route between Buranda and Redland Bay makes sense to me.  I won't say anything about the inner part.

Doesn't the 270 mostly terminate at Capalaba, is that planned to extend to Carindale?  That would seem to make sense.

As I understand it, the 270 will be boosted to run to Carindale all day Monday to Friday every half hour to provide a 15 minute frequency between Capalaba and Carindale.  I'm unsure on the exact details though.

Extending the 280 has been looked at before but more as an operational reason for the timetable and rostering than anything else.

[SurfRail]

Firstly not diverting the 250 into Carindale would be a major error.  Carindale is the one of the most popular destinations along the 250 route currently, if you want to empty a bus you'll do it at Carindale, especially on the weekends.  So, no, the 250 needs to remain heading into Carindale and most of these passengers aren't originating at Capalaba, they are coming from Thornlands, Alexandra Hills (both popular locations for the 250) and they are heading to Capalaba, Carindale and to a slightly lesser extent, the city.

It's called transferring.  Get those people to board a 270 at Capalaba, so people can have the fastest trip to where they need to be.  Same as the 700/702/703 vs the routes which go inside Pacific Fair.  It works here.

The biggest issue with terminating the 250 at Cleveland is that the majority of the patronage comes from Thornlands and Alexandra Hills.  You can have a near fully seated load at Alexandra Hills and Capalaba and if you stay on the bus to find out where they come from, you'll find that they are coming from Finucane Rd and Cleveland-Redland Bay Rd.  I can definately note off the most popular bus stops where you are pretty much guaranteed to stop for passengers along those sections, including all stops between Cleveland Shops and South St, The Red Shop (Finucane Rd & Vienna Rd), Alexandra Hills Shops and the TAFE.

Then Victoria Point perhaps.

By the way, a 250/290 was looked at by TransLink back in 2007 but was worked out that it would be more expensive to split the route than to maintain the route and boost the frequency on the existing route, this was because you would need to add extra services earlier and later to maintain a connection to the 250 at Cleveland.

So in other words they needed to spend money to make it better regardless of what was going to be implemented.  They haven't done any favors to the Redlands by leaving it as is, particularly at weekends.

The 270 has lesser demand between Victoria Point and Capalaba and along that section at least would only really support a 30 minute frequency which is what it will be getting in February to create a 15 minute frequency between Carindale and Capalaba.

I doubt that Moggill, a location with a similar pattern of settlement, actually needed a BUZ either.  It does have one, and it would be disastrous to withdraw it now.  "Demand" is entirely a function of what people are prepared to put up with, because there are clearly still LOTS of people driving up the road to Capalaba Park from the Victoria Pt and Thornlands area and not using the pretty woeful bus services.  Something which should hopefully be reinforced once the 15 min shared stretch to Carindale is implemented.

One of the problems I've picked up with the 280 is that the folks prefer the 250 over the 280 as not only does it service more destinations, and lets them stay on the one bus - popular with oldies and infrequent users, but the 280 with it running hourly makes it difficult to work out (at least for the casual user) which bus you need to catch out of the city and at what time to make the connection with the 280 at Eight Mile Plains.  From my observations, the majority catching the 280 are only going as far as Garden City, only a few younger more switched on users catch the 280 to continue to the city.  The older long term users and infrequent users tend to prefer the 250/270 over the 280 to get to the city, even though it takes longer for them to do it, it's more the predictability of the 250/270 that makes it attractive to them.  They know that they can catch the 250 and it will get them to the city without having to change buses.

The same silly outcome used to occur down here with the old route 7 (later 757), which took 2 hours end to end.  It is now about 5 or 6 separate bus routes over its whole length and operates MUCH better now that people know they can change to regular services at The Pines and Burleigh. 

Catering to the lowest common denominator is no way to plan a network.  People will learn to transfer if it is made easy.

[somebody]

I doubt that Moggill, a location with a similar pattern of settlement, actually needed a BUZ either.  It does have one, and it would be disastrous to withdraw it now.  "Demand" is entirely a function of what people are prepared to put up with, because there are clearly still LOTS of people driving up the road to Capalaba Park from the Victoria Pt and Thornlands area and not using the pretty woeful bus services.  Something which should hopefully be reinforced once the 15 min shared stretch to Carindale is implemented.

It does also serve the Moggill Rd stretch through Kenmore though, which IMO undoubtedly needs a BUZ service.  It could be a 430 BUZ instead, I guess, but I doubt that would be better than the 444 BUZ.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is no way to plan a network.  People will learn to transfer if it is made easy.

I should bottle that quote for conversations involving Sydney.