POLL: Charge for on bus top up?

[somebody]

I'm thinking that I don't want to have to wait for top ups all the time on BT routes, and neither does anyone else.  Having top ups but having a charge seems to be a reasonable trade off.

The next step would be having go card sales on buses.

I think that the union would be more agreeable to this proposal than allowing free top ups also.

[#Metro]

I am solidly against top-ups on BT buses.

One of the reasons for introducing GoCard was to eliminate cash transactions on board services because they waste time -- moving the system to a pre-paid system or as close to it over time . Why can't people top up when in the city, online or at the outlets that allow this?

This seems to defeat the purpose of the electronic ticketing.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Tend to agree. If its the very start of the route then it would be okay. In most cases from what I've seen topping up is just as long as buying a ticket.

[ozbob]

I think the solution is to allow BT top ups on designated routes only.  Eg.  467/468 type routes.  Those feeding stations from the suburbs are very logical routes to allow topups.

Other operators can manage, what is so special about BT??

Onboard bus topups are a way of life out west ...

As a community we should be encouraging public transport use, and go card use.

And if you stop and think outside the square for a while, an occasional top up is better than a paper ticket purchase every trip ...

[somebody]

Tend to agree. If its the very start of the route then it would be okay. In most cases from what I've seen topping up is just as long as buying a ticket.

You mean with TT?  Then what of people who do not possess a go card with enough credit on it?

I feel my proposal is a good compromise.

[ozbob]

I'm thinking that I don't want to have to wait for top ups all the time on BT routes, and neither does anyone else.  Having top ups but having a charge seems to be a reasonable trade off.

The next step would be having go card sales on buses.

I think that the union would be more agreeable to this proposal than allowing free top ups also.

Other jurisdictions frequently give a discount for auto-topup as an incentive to get folks onto that ...   

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yeah, with TTs post Simon.

Honestly, what's the point of introducing GoCards to improve boarding times if the passenger still has to wait the same amount of time for someone to apply credit to their GoCard. Might have aswell just have left the magnetic strip cards and not introduced gocards. These days there is little excuse for having lack of credit on your card. Each time the card is used the amount available is shown. If someone doesn't look at it then tough luck for not taking 1 second to have a quick look. There's online top ups. There's automatic online top ups for when you get low on credit. If you frequently go to the city then there's absolutly no excuse for having no/lack of credit. If you transfer to a train no excuse. Transfer at an interchange no excuse. If you use it to go to the shops its likely there will be a newsagency with top up options there.

[david]

I think the solution is to allow BT top ups on designated routes only.  Eg.  467/468 type routes.  Those feeding stations from the suburbs are very logical routes to allow topups.

I would've thought that feeder routes would NOT be the most appropriate as people can easily top up at a fare machine or at the ticket office at the station. What would make more sense to me is if top-ups are allowed on routes that go into "woop-woop" areas like the 444 (Moggill), 385 (The Gap) and 435 (Brookfield).

It still shocks me that major interchanges such as the Indooroopilly Bus Station don't have fare machines...

[ozbob]

Unfortunately, people do need to topup on their first bus ride of the day sometimes.  All operators except BT can do it.  A wider pro-public transport, pro-go card attitude by BT is the way forward.  The compromise is designated feeder routes only in the main.

Clearly, if you want people to move off paper (and buying a ticket EVERY trip) far better to have the option of onboard topup when needed.

My observations on Westside Buses are that the topups are not that often.  Obviously just when folks get caught short.  Better the odd topup than a ticket purchase every trip.  
Onboard topups are quicker the ticket purchases as a rule.

@David, reason why topups are needed on feeder buses is that folks may not be able to get to the station otherwise to topup.  It is the beginning of the journey, if you have no credit you can't start ...  see this in action out at Goodna for example.

Feeder routes are only one example where topups should be available, other routes needed as well, particularly out in the suburbs etc.

[#Metro]

You mean with TT?  Then what of people who do not possess a go card with enough credit on it?

I feel my proposal is a good compromise.

To be fair, there have been many times where I've swiped my card and it has gone "insufficient funds" and then I've had to buy a paper ticket. Let's say this happens 2 out of every ten times... so there's your 20% paper ticket users...

There are pros and cons...

[Otto]

Even if you don't read the screen, you still get the 3 beeps warning from the reader as your balance gets low..

[STB]

You mean with TT?  Then what of people who do not possess a go card with enough credit on it?

I feel my proposal is a good compromise.

To be fair, there have been many times where I've swiped my card and it has gone "insufficient funds" and then I've had to buy a paper ticket. Let's say this happens 2 out of every ten times... so there's your 20% paper ticket users...

There are pros and cons...

So, why haven't you topped up when you get the 3 beeps?  Do you take notice of how much you have left on your card?

[#Metro]

So, why haven't you topped up when you get the 3 beeps?  Do you take notice of how much you have left on your card?

Loaded question. It's not just about me - there are tens of thousands of people who do this on the network!

Lame excuse time!!

There are times when the shops are closed and I haven't been near a busway
OR I have coins and the machine doesn't accept coins, only card or cash (no cash!)
OR I have topped up online and it is "still processing"

If I catch a bus outbound and get the three beeps, then its ok for me if I live near a busway, but if I don't then where am I going to do it? Not everyone lives near a shopping centre.

Again, I think Coles and woolies need to have GoCard top up. Everyone shops at these places, so that's where they need to be. Previously I had to to up at .. the petrol station of all places...

[STB]

Then clearly BT needs to be able to do top ups based on what you've said.

[somebody]

Then clearly BT needs to be able to do top ups based on what you've said.

I think that is clear also.  Dividing it by operator lines is pretty daft - it should be everyone does it or no one does it.

How would the selected routes work?  As has been noted, heading I/B on the 444 there would need to be the ability to handle those without a Go Card with a positive balance.  I don't see how it can be "selected routes".

[STB]

So, why haven't you topped up when you get the 3 beeps?  Do you take notice of how much you have left on your card?

Loaded question. It's not just about me - there are tens of thousands of people who do this on the network!

Lame excuse time!!

There are times when the shops are closed and I haven't been near a busway
OR I have coins and the machine doesn't accept coins, only card or cash (no cash!)
OR I have topped up online and it is "still processing"

If I catch a bus outbound and get the three beeps, then its ok for me if I live near a busway, but if I don't then where am I going to do it? Not everyone lives near a shopping centre.

Again, I think Coles and woolies need to have GoCard top up. Everyone shops at these places, so that's where they need to be. Previously I had to to up at .. the petrol station of all places...

With the 3 beeps kicking in below $7, surely you have somewhere along the line where you can top up before it reaches $0.  Heck you can even touch on when you've got $0.01 remaining.

I must admit, I've never had that problem when I've topped up at an AVVM and then had the funds not added when I've touched on a bus.  It's always has worked for me.

[Derwan]

I am solidly against top-ups on BT buses.

Agree totally!

If people don't have credit on their cards when they board the bus, they can purchase a single ticket!!

[somebody]

I struggle to reconcile the concept of removing paper tickets and the opposition to allowing top ups on BT buses.  If you don't have a go card then sod off?  Or are you to be allowed to buy a new go card on a bus but not top an existing one off?

[ozbob]

Yes, time BT moved with the times.    What is so special about BT?  Other operators cope fine ...

I would much prefer the occasional on board top up versus a paper ticket being purchased every trip by some individuals ... 

More effort should also be put into getting folks on to auto-topup. 

[Gazza]

Yeah, top ups should be on BT.

This is the whole idea I'm getting at. You move to a fully electronic system, but at the same time, all procedures change to support this operational model.

I would support a minimum reload amount, again as a means to reduce the number of transactions required.

This means selling preloaded cards on buses, and allowing top ups.

[somebody]

I am solidly against top-ups on BT buses.

Agree totally!

If people don't have credit on their cards when they board the bus, they can purchase a single ticket!!

So you two and HTG would keep paper tickets rather than go to an all electronic system then?

My proposal is equitable to all parties, or at least more equitable than charging for a massively inflated paper ticket.  Why's it not supported?

[#Metro]

Hmmm..

IF we were able to have GoCards on buses PLUS top-up and it was expensive enough to be rare, it might work.

I'd call for a trial... the P routes could be used as an experiment.

I'm pretty cautious but willing to see a test to see how it goes.

[HappyTrainGuy]

My stance was on the top ups done on buses.

[somebody]

My stance was on the top ups done on buses.

So then what if you don't have credit on your go card?  Sod off, use paper or what?

[HappyTrainGuy]

My stance was on the top ups done on buses.

So then what if you don't have credit on your go card?  Sod off, use paper or what?

These days there is little excuse for having lack of credit on your card. Each time the card is used the amount available is shown. If someone doesn't look at it then tough luck for not taking 1 second to have a quick look. There's online top ups. There's automatic online top ups for when you get low on credit. If you frequently go to the city then there's absolutly no excuse for having no/lack of credit. If you transfer to a train no excuse. Transfer at an interchange no excuse. If you use it to go to the shops its likely there will be a newsagency with top up options there.

[Golliwog]

I wouldn't support charging extra to top up on the bus. It's of little point, and only going to annoy people (which I guess is the point). Anyway, what I think should be done is a minimum top up amount of say $30. I also fully support moving people from paper to go card ticketing, though don't think you need to have only gocards being used before implementing this. It makes no sense that you can do it with every other bus operator except BT. Though I do agree that it needs to be encouraged as an only if needed service, people should be using AVVM's and gocard top up stores where possible.

Just throwing out a different idea, but maybe to encourage it being only for those that need it, the top up on buses could have a maximum top up amount implemented? Say, $5? It's enough to get you to the city or the shops but not much further at all. I don't know about you, but I hate topping up multiple times, hence why I always top up with a large amount.

[ozbob]

Just throwing out a different idea, but maybe to encourage it being only for those that need it, the top up on buses could have a maximum top up amount implemented? Say, $5? It's enough to get you to the city or the shops but not much further at all. I don't know about you, but I hate topping up multiple times, hence why I always top up with a large amount.

Good suggestion Golli, might be way to get BT into the fold so to speak ...  I think the other operators need to continue as they are now though.

[somebody]

My stance was on the top ups done on buses.

So then what if you don't have credit on your go card?  Sod off, use paper or what?

These days there is little excuse for having lack of credit on your card. Each time the card is used the amount available is shown. If someone doesn't look at it then tough luck for not taking 1 second to have a quick look. There's online top ups. There's automatic online top ups for when you get low on credit. If you frequently go to the city then there's absolutly no excuse for having no/lack of credit. If you transfer to a train no excuse. Transfer at an interchange no excuse. If you use it to go to the shops its likely there will be a newsagency with top up options there.

Ouch!

Don't support that notion.

I wouldn't support charging extra to top up on the bus. It's of little point, and only going to annoy people (which I guess is the point). Anyway, what I think should be done is a minimum top up amount of say $30. I also fully support moving people from paper to go card ticketing, though don't think you need to have only gocards being used before implementing this. It makes no sense that you can do it with every other bus operator except BT. Though I do agree that it needs to be encouraged as an only if needed service, people should be using AVVM's and gocard top up stores where possible.

Just throwing out a different idea, but maybe to encourage it being only for those that need it, the top up on buses could have a maximum top up amount implemented? Say, $5? It's enough to get you to the city or the shops but not much further at all. I don't know about you, but I hate topping up multiple times, hence why I always top up with a large amount.

I don't see how establishing min/max top up amounts is a disincentive to use the top up on bus feature.

[ozbob]

It is said that the reason BT don't do top ups is because they don't want large sums of money on the buses.

Limiting them to $5 will probably keep it down ... to manageable amounts. Probably less than what they carry now with paper ticket sales ...

[Derwan]

So you two and HTG would keep paper tickets rather than go to an all electronic system then?

Sorry... I didn't realise this was a flow-on from the removal of paper tickets thread.  (I hadn't visited for a couple of days and saw this thread before I caught up on the other one.)

Sell pre-loaded Go Cards = Yes
Top-up existing Go Cards = No

There is no excuse for not having enough credit on your card.  I have NEVER topped up using an AVVM.  I haven't had to MANUALLY top-up for a couple of years (since whenever auto top-up was introduced).  People need to get their act together and stop holding everyone else up.

Absolute worst-case scenario (passenger doesn't have enough credit and really wants to ride the bus)... passenger has to purchase a new pre-loaded Go Card from the driver and use that.

My proposal is equitable to all parties, or at least more equitable than charging for a massively inflated paper ticket.  Why's it not supported?

No it's not equitable to all parties.  It means delays for passengers.  It's not supported because it's not necessary.

[#Metro]

Sell pre-loaded Go Cards = Yes
Top-up existing Go Cards = No

There is no excuse for not having enough credit on your card.  I have NEVER topped up using an AVVM.  I haven't had to MANUALLY top-up for a couple of years (since whenever auto top-up was introduced).  People need to get their act together and stop holding everyone else up.

Absolute worst-case scenario (passenger doesn't have enough credit and really wants to ride the bus)... passenger has to purchase a new pre-loaded Go Card from the driver and use that.

Nice disincentive right there - I like this idea actually.

OK. I throw my support behind this idea. Have a trial and then i think its good to go.

[#Metro]

I agree too, it's a no brainer!

people come in all the time asking if we do Go Card. Would be a great idea!

[Golliwog]

So you two and HTG would keep paper tickets rather than go to an all electronic system then?

Sorry... I didn't realise this was a flow-on from the removal of paper tickets thread.  (I hadn't visited for a couple of days and saw this thread before I caught up on the other one.)

Sell pre-loaded Go Cards = Yes
Top-up existing Go Cards = No

There is no excuse for not having enough credit on your card.  I have NEVER topped up using an AVVM.  I haven't had to MANUALLY top-up for a couple of years (since whenever auto top-up was introduced).  People need to get their act together and stop holding everyone else up.

Absolute worst-case scenario (passenger doesn't have enough credit and really wants to ride the bus)... passenger has to purchase a new pre-loaded Go Card from the driver and use that.

My proposal is equitable to all parties, or at least more equitable than charging for a massively inflated paper ticket.  Why's it not supported?

No it's not equitable to all parties.  It means delays for passengers.  It's not supported because it's not necessary.

So we should all just switch over to gocards with auto-top up? I don't ever think that passengers should be using a bus as their main point of topping up, however I think it should certainly be available for when it is needed. Forcing someone who doesn't have enough credit on their card to either not catch PT, or buy a whole new go card until they've gone to an AVVM/go-car retailer/topped up online and waited 24hrs is ridiculous! Yes, the onus is on the card holder to watch their balance, but at the end of the day, public transport is a service industry. You shouldn't be refusing a customer just because of some rule and a very minor delay.

[Gazza]

I think its a bit harsh to ban bus top ups outright.

For me, its about reducing the number of transactions.

That's where I'd do stuff like minimum top ups. (Min $10....Min $20? No change given as a rule)

Someone may have to do it in a pinch, but at least if they do they wont be a bother again for at least a week or two, because that's how long it takes to 'physically' get through that amount of credit.

[ozbob]

My view is that all bus operators need to allow topups.  The only one that doesn't is BT, for dubious reasons.  Easily got around by limiting topups on BT buses to $5, and on designated routes.

You may not agree with this, but this group is actually pro-public transport.  We support public transport being accessible to all.

Some of you need to get out on the various operators (other than the BT) and actually see how topup on buses works.  It is not a major issue, it provides the opportunity for people to actually use public transport.   You need to grasp this basic premise - it is far better to have an occasional on board top up than paper ticket purchases every trip.

Major non event folks ...

[somebody]

My proposal is equitable to all parties, or at least more equitable than charging for a massively inflated paper ticket.  Why's it not supported?

No it's not equitable to all parties.  It means delays for passengers.  It's not supported because it's not necessary.

That is an angle, although I don't follow the argument about delays for passengers.  Buying a new go card would take about the same time as doing a top up.  It would be a sufficient disincentive to not have enough money on your go card in terms of the massive inconvenience of getting a refund for a Go Card that you don't need.  It seems to impose costs on the system as a whole to have to sell and then refund un-needed Go Cards though, hence why I am against this notion.

[Derwan]

While I think people should get their acts together and do a top-up (or set up auto top-up) before they get on a bus, if top-ups are to be allowed on buses, they should be free.

I think there will be a lot of peer pressure for people who force other passengers to wait while they do their top-up that they could've easily done online or at a retailer.  But then, some people just don't care and will be completely oblivious to the stares they are receiving from other passengers.

At the end of the day, if MOST passengers do the right thing, loading will still be faster than if everyone had to buy paper tickets.

I will add though, that on-board top-ups should not be allowed at bus stops/stations where AVVM's are available.

[#Metro]

I think we are trying to rationalise the unknown. What we need is a trial IMHO.

Then we can say with confidence whether it will be too slow / fine /whatever.
Without that we are all shooting in the dark - useless.

Let a trial go forward and let's see what the results come back as.

[somebody]

While I think people should get their acts together and do a top-up (or set up auto top-up) before they get on a bus, if top-ups are to be allowed on buses, they should be free.

I think there will be a lot of peer pressure for people who force other passengers to wait while they do their top-up that they could've easily done online or at a retailer.  But then, some people just don't care and will be completely oblivious to the stares they are receiving from other passengers.

At the end of the day, if MOST passengers do the right thing, loading will still be faster than if everyone had to buy paper tickets.

I will add though, that on-board top-ups should not be allowed at bus stops/stations where AVVM's are available.

I think it would be a bizarre policy to have paper tickets and go cards sold on the bus but not allow top ups.  Selling go cards and allowing top ups seems to be the way forward for removing paper tickets.  It also means that people using paper tickets are paying much more.

[dwb]

I am solidly against top-ups on BT buses.

One of the reasons for introducing GoCard was to eliminate cash transactions on board services because they waste time -- moving the system to a pre-paid system or as close to it over time . Why can't people top up when in the city, online or at the outlets that allow this?

This seems to defeat the purpose of the electronic ticketing.

I have an overseas visitor with me at the moment, he bought a go card as I told him that was the best way to go, he'd been travelling around and topping up etc at 7-11 etc but recently he travelled from Domestic Airport to Park Road and he didn't successfully touch off... he's new to the system and Park Rd isn't gated, it was late at night and he'd been travelling for ages, I think he simply forgot (rather than non functioning machine). But either way this has put his card into negative -$8.60 or something, as the default fare there is $30.... he was rather in credit before that trip!

He wanted to go to the city today, we live close to the city, but not near a 7-11... we could top up online but it wouldn't be on the card when he turned up at the bus. We also don't live near a retailer for a new go card, nor a train station to top up... what is he to do? Purchase a paper single ticket!?

Charge ups need to be able to be done on BT buses, it is that simple!