Car Rapid Transit: MORE M1 upgrades (permanent upgrades)

[#Metro]

It never stops!

``If we want to really get a fix to the peak hour congestion we need to look beyond this merge and at further sections of the upgrade,'' she said.

``I believe we should be getting on with the job of securing the funding for the section from Underwood Road to Springwood.

Member for Waterford Evan Moorhead said he supported the campaign, and highlighted that the State and Federal Government had already invested $420 million into the current works at Daisy Hill.

``Better on-ramps and off-ramps will provide some relief to congestion, but the longer term solution is to get more people on to trains and buses,'' he said.

Member for Woodridge Desley Scott said she would like to see the upgrade done as soon as possible, but acknowledged there was limited funding available.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/P/Pacific-Motorway-M1-upgrade-Springwood-south-to-Daisy-Hill.aspx

Half a billion on ONE interchange

Of this A$420 million has been allocated to upgrading the interchange and a section of motorway at Springwood (south) to Daisy Hill in Logan.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/logan/pollies-support-our-fix-the-m1-campaign/story-fn8m0u8i-1226224344426

So? When are we going to see rail triplication to Beenleigh? Or anything else that speeds things up (deleting stations on the beenleigh line, zone operation).

[Mr X]

$140m for ONE OFF RAMP EXTENSION and road widening - Gateway Mwy, anyone?  

"Today I can announce that cost savings achieved on upgrades elsewhere along the Pacific Motorway will be used to realign and extend its southbound on-ramp here at Eight Mile Plains so as motorists have more opportunity to merge safely," said Mr Albanese.

"This $140 million project will also widen the Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Road between Broadwater and Gardener roads from four to six lanes - a measure which will greatly improve access to and from the Gateway Motorway for the 35,000 motorists who pass through this intersection every day.

http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/aa/releases/2011/September/AA164_2011.aspx

Sure it's funded by "savings", but it has to go to another stupid patch of bitumen WHY?

[#Metro]

$140m

Benchmark cost of BUZ = $4 million dollars

Let's say that we run a BUZ for 5 years

4 x 5 = 20 million over 5 years

140 / 20 = 7 BUZ services (e.g. pretty much all the CFN on bus completed).

The problem of course is the Beenleigh line. It is NOT FAST, stops everywhere and is NOT FREQUENT. It is a complete and utter waste of time.

In Chapter 2 of Human Transit, I argue that useful transit can be understood as involving seven dimensions or elements.

1.    "It takes me where I want to go."

2.    "It takes me when I want to go."

3.    "It's a good use of my time."

4.    "It's a good use of my money."

5.    "It respects me."

6.    "I can trust it."

7.    "It gives me freedom to change my plans."

The dominant mode in a community is the one that best addresses the seven demands, compared to the available alternatives, in the perception of the majority of people.  In a rural area, or a low density suburban one, the automobile meets all seven demands handsomely.  You can drive to just about anywhere (demand 1).  The car is in your garage when you need it (demand 2).  It is the fastest way to get to most places (demand 3) and thanks to many government subsidies it is relatively cost-effective to own (demand 4).  It is comparatively comfortable (demand 5).  You maintain the car, so you have some control over its reliability (demand 6).   Finally, it's easy to change your travel plans mid-trip (demand 7).

I don't blame people for wanting to get the motorway done up. Speed and time wise, comparing the M1 (100 - 110 km/hour motorway) to the Beenleigh line (30 minute wait and then excruciating stopping at all stations for another half hour) is like being presented with a car and a TransLink horse and buggy. Which one would you choose?

Solution:

DELETE/AMALGAMATE stations - DO IT.
Track amplification
Zone operation
More frequent services
SE busway needs connection to GC trains through a direct fast bus.

Same issue with the Ipswich line. Again all stops everywhere horse and buggy, 30 minute wait versus 110 km motorway.

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/12/outtake-on-endearing-but-useless-transit.html

[somebody]

I don't see the merit in closing Holmview.  Basically no one gets a benefit as people at Beenleigh would generally use the Gold Coast trains.  Rocklea can be nearly the same depending on the destination.

[Mr X]

Hate to flog a dead horse, but having GC trains using an express alignment via Garden City would be so much better.
After Beenleigh is fine- 140km/h train with stops CAN compete with 100/110km/h motorway (even if the traffic goes faster than that!).

Frequency remains woeful as ever though.

[#Metro]

Hate to flog a dead horse, but having GC trains using an express alignment via Garden City would be so much better.
After Beenleigh is fine- 140km/h train with stops CAN compete with 100/110km/h motorway (even if the traffic goes faster than that!).

Frequency remains woeful as ever though.

Yeah. I like to think of it this way. You put a car and a train on an athletic race track.
The gun goes off, and the car starts racing around the track.

HALF AN HOUR LATER the train starts and then stops periodically.

The train needs to stop at places - fine. But the half an hour wait before anything happens. Not competitive!!


So a question: what trackwork needs to be done to allow 15 minute frequeny to Beenleigh in both directions and GC trains to have a clear run?

[Mr X]

Looking at the Gold Coast line, the inner city section is terrible too. While this may not be avoidable, the trip from Central to Park Rd is the slowest! 12mins to go 5km? Only the all stops 199 is slower. Then it's 60km/h average between Park Rd and Beenleigh, after which it gets fast.

Is there sny way to speed up this hooorible inner city bit?

Btw saying a train waits 30mins isn't fair- wouldn't 15mins be a better measure as that's the average wait??

Our PT system needs to be for real people wanting to get places fast! Only a Beenleigh train spotter would bother with the current alignment.

[#Metro]

Looking at the Gold Coast line, the inner city section is terrible too. While this may not be avoidable, the trip from Central to Park Rd is the slowest! 12mins to go 5km? Only the all stops 199 is slower. Then it's 60km/h average between Park Rd and Beenleigh, after which it gets fast.

Is there sny way to speed up this hooorible inner city bit?

Good news- there IS a way to speed it up and that is CRR! I hope when CRR comes along they send all Beenleigh/GC trains via it and
also terminate the existing line at Yeerongpilly or Moorooka. Get rid of Rocklea station!

Btw saying a train waits 30mins isn't fair- wouldn't 15mins be a better measure as that's the average wait??

It is perfectly fair. On average, a person will experience the best and worst travel times. Of course if you plan for average, half the time you will have
a journey far longer than you intended and this has consequences. If a transfer is involved, it is even worse.

Imagine if we had fitted interlocks to cars that randomly allowed the car to start but had a maximum delay of 30 minutes before the car started, would you plan a trip based around the average or the potential worst case?

[somebody]

the trip from Central to Park Rd is the slowest! 12mins to go 5km? Only the all stops 199 is slower. Then it's 60km/h average between Park Rd and Beenleigh, after which it gets fast.

It's even worse as the crow flies - closer to 3km.  It's not much better than the 199 when looked at in that way, and even worse when you consider that Central station isn't convenient for most people.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Can you please stop saying waiting 30 minutes. Yes, its a 30 minute gap between services but no one living 10 minutes from the station thinks the train is coming in 40 minutes so I better start heading to the station and waits 30 minutes for their train. That's just poor time management. If you miss the train by a minute and you live close by then that's just poor time management too. When I use the hourly bus near my place I don't rock up 2 minutes after the pervious service and wait 58 minutes. I can sleep in a bit longer, do some extra jobs around the house, play some xbox, jump on the computer, watch some tv or read the paper/a book. If the bus gets there just minutes after the train does then that's just poor bus planning. Car travel is always going to win as its private transport. Not public. It caters for you and only you while public transport has to cater for you and hundreds of thousands of other people just as important as you. A car can leave 2 hours before the train but what demand is at 2.30am to warrant a train running on a Tuesday night.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned running a Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes shuttle to get a 15 minute frequency in offpeak.

[#Metro]

Can you please stop saying waiting 30 minutes. Yes, its a 30 minute gap between services but no one living 10 minutes from the station thinks the train is coming in 40 minutes so I better start heading to the station and waits 30 minutes for their train.

I've previously lived in Fairfield , 10 minutes from the station by walk. Actually wanting to catch the train and then having to find the timetable and then realising that I had just missed the next train/there would not be enough time to walk and catch it/maybe if I run I might catch it ticked me right off. Then if I misjudged I had to wait for the next train.

Thank heavens I live near a busway now! This morning I just went there and the bus arrived within 10 seconds! Oh, and this is now many many more kilometres out of the city than Fairfield!!!

Code Select Expand

That's just poor time management.

Oh no, it's just CR*P service. That's what it is. The people of Perth, Melbourne, Sydney do not put up with this rubbish. This is a RAIL service, supposed to be high capacity, trunk line haul stuff that needs to be frequent. As Queenslanders we have normalised this rubbish service because that's all we've ever had.

Using the worst case, at least for urban services, is valid. On average, a person who does enough trips is going to experience the best and worst travel times (whether they plan for it or not).

If you miss the train by a minute and you live close by then that's just poor time management too. When I use the hourly bus near my place I don't rock up 2 minutes after the pervious service and wait 58 minutes. I can sleep in a bit longer, do some extra jobs around the house, play some xbox, jump on the computer, watch some tv or read the paper/a book. If the bus gets there just minutes after the train does then that's just poor bus planning. Car travel is always going to win as its private transport. Not public. It caters for you and only you while public transport has to cater for you and hundreds of thousands of other people just as important as you. A car can leave 2 hours before the train but what demand is at 2.30am to warrant a train running on a Tuesday night.

It is a sound and valid way of capturing and modelling how people react to services that are on offer and the resulting patronage.
It is not a co-incidence that simply doubling half hourly bus frequency doubles the patronage, in line with the Mohring effect.
You might catch the hourly bus by planning but most people would think "why bother" and that's why that hourly bus likely carries air.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned running a Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes shuttle to get a 15 minute frequency in offpeak.

This might have merit.

[HappyTrainGuy]

That's poor time management in my book. Its not that difficult to remember what time the train goes past. The same applies for what time the local bus goes past. The bus ends up going to an interchange about 5-10 mins away then full speed to the city while passing a couple schools so it gets decent patronage for an hourly service. Just wish those damn annoying hipsters didn't catch it so much!

[Set in train]

Agree, flogging the dead horse again, express alignment via SE Fwy from Beenleigh, then Wilbur Smith CRR alignment from the Gabba.

Go on, pelt your rotten tomatoes!

[Mr X]

"Poor time management"?

One of my friends lives on the 425 ( one of the crapola western routes), another lives on the 230/235/184/185/210/212 and me, the 196.

We all went out the other night and coming home all used the bus.  So it's "bad time management" for us NOT to plan our night around bus timetables, but went to our respective bus stops assuming there'd be a bus?

The friend on the 425 had to wait 45mins for the HOURLY bus. If he had a car he would be almost home by the time the bus even arrived. I was at my house before his bus arrived.
The friend on the 230/212/etc.. had to check between two different bus stops for the nearest bus, one on Adelaide St and one on Ann St, as all the buses he uses operate on half hourly/hourly frequencies. Inbound is even worse.

Me? I just had to go to ONE bus stop for ONE bus that I KNEW was every 15mins, ALL DAY EVERY DAY.

Not suggesting we BUZ everything but clearly there is a lot of waste in our PT system which can be scrapped for improving these horrible off peak frequencies. Turning up to a bus stop and assuming a bus will be there is not bad time management, why should we be forced to live our lives by when a bus might be coming?? Sure the bus might turn up at :16 past the hour or whatever, but for a lot of these routes, the times vary all day between every 45mins to every hour etc. so you really can't expect people to memorise the bus timetables.

[#Metro]

Not suggesting we BUZ everything but clearly there is a lot of waste in our PT system which can be scrapped for improving these horrible off peak frequencies. Turning up to a bus stop and assuming a bus will be there is not bad time management, why should we be forced to live our lives by when a bus might be coming?? Sure the bus might turn up at :16 past the hour or whatever, but for a lot of these routes, the times vary all day between every 45mins to every hour etc. so you really can't expect people to memorise the bus timetables.

VERY good point. It's OUR time and OUR life. I cannot be surprised that people go and get a car-- they want to live their lives around THEM not TransLink.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If you live next to a train station or on an hourly bus route then yes, it is, as it may be your only pt option. You don't have to plan it exactly to the bus timetable but have a rough idea of your departure times from the city.

[#Metro]

If you live next to a train station or on an hourly bus route then yes, it is, as it may be your only pt option

I would like to see TUAG at most suburban stations (so everything after Ipswich/Caboolture exempt incl. Tennyson) and the Gold Coast Line.
4 trains per hour = ~ 4000 pphd, more than enough capacity to run buses into that in the off-peak at least.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd love to have 4tph and a better off peak bus with longer running hours in the morning and night going past my place but its not at the moment. So until that happens everywhere, plan ahead, put a couple pdf timetables of your most popular/quickest route to the city/home on your phone and remember your favourite route/timetable.

[mufreight]

Reading this thread it emphasises that more motorway/freeway construction achieves little other than to move the point of terminal congestion a bit further down the road at exhorbitant cost.
Half these funds expended on public transport would deliver twice the result and the increased usage would remove the need? for the current exhorbitant fare increases.

[ozbob]

Indeed mu.  The Ipswich Highway - peak car park is getting worse and worse Darra to Rocklea in the AM.  As the billions expended further out slowly increments the festering mess is dumped even quicker, and the congestion is just exacerbating .. it is going to be a massive basket case next year (some would suggest it already is ..).

[Set in train]

$140m for ONE OFF RAMP EXTENSION and road widening - Gateway Mwy, anyone?  


http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/aa/releases/2011/September/AA164_2011.aspx

Sure it's funded by "savings", but it has to go to another stupid patch of bitumen WHY?

May I also point out the intricacies:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/63793a9a-b1ba-4570-834a-1ce8e4e44455/gatewaymotorwaysouthboundsectionb.pdf

The real cause of the Rochedale choke is the merging of three lanes of southbound freeway traffic into two before the freeway meets the on ramp from the Gateway.

Southbound drivers will notice their speed increasing once merging is complete outside the Eight Mile Plains busway station and speeding up significantly again once clear of the overbridges approaching the on ramp from the Gateway.