Phase out paper single tickets?

[O_128]

Just a simple thing which everyone in sydney can do. All bus tops on certain routes have a sticker "Prepaid 7am - 7pm" Done and easy.

[ozbob]

Yes, the perception is that the $5 deposit is a cost for the go card.  Simply make a preloaded go card $11, $1 go card cost, $10 travel.  Such cards can be programmed to reject touch on for  a new journey when credit drops below a zone 1 off peak threshold eg. $2.44 full, $1.22 concession.  This also means the potential $5 administrative fee is lost in space forever.

I don't think rorting would be a issue.  It would be now with the $5 deposit anyway.

The other approach is leave the system as it is and just remove paper.  Force people onto the go card, and lets face reality, actually doing them and the wider network a favour.

This would be contingent on much improved user education/support and availability of preloaded go cards.

[somebody]

I don't think rorting would be a issue.  It would be now with the $5 deposit anyway.

There's only really any percentage in this at present for coast commuters.  The 50% FUD rising to 100% I'd say opens a bigger loophole.

Yes, the perception is that the $5 deposit is a cost for the go card.  Simply make a preloaded go card $11, $1 go card cost, $10 travel.  Such cards can be programmed to reject touch on for  a new journey when credit drops below a zone 1 off peak threshold eg. $2.44 full, $1.22 concession.  This also means the potential $5 administrative fee is lost in space forever.

Effectively, this proposal is just changing the way current system is explained.  Perhaps that would have been a better option from day 1, but I'm not sure it can be changed now.

The other approach is leave the system as it is and just remove paper.  Force people onto the go card, and lets face reality, actually doing them and the wider network a favour.

Absolutely an option.  It seems refunds have been sorted at the main airports, which was my main concern with this one.  It would be nice to do the Sunshine Coast as well, but far less people fly there, and many of them I expect rent cars.

[ozbob]

I think what this poll is demonstrating admirably is that many here do want a 100% go environment, how to get there is the issue.

Personally, I am not happy with way paper ticket buyers are done over price wise, plus they would mostly not understand fully the time limit implications.

I think the remaining issues with the go card can be sorted, with a view to phase out of paper January 2013.

[STB]

STB has reported that go card information was being handed out by a bus driver to pax buying paper tickets today on a bus he was on.

Be interesting to know if this was a driver initiative or the commencement of a wider campaign.  We can only hope ...

Well after travelling yesterday, it seems that was just a driver who decided to get the info out himself without being told to do so.

I think with the last 20%, no amount of advertising or indirect user education will work.  I did Marketing at uni earlier this year and people do have a natural inclination to block messages coming in.  In fact, we get exposed to hundreds of adverts everyday, but only really remember one or two as was demonstrated by the Lecturer.  I think now it's time to get personal with that 20% and do one on one advertising and user education just as that driver was doing yesterday, I really think it's the only way the message will get out to people if we go towards a paperless ticket system.  Who's up to doing some direct advertising/user education whenever you get the bus/train/ferry and see a hapless paper ticket user?  I also think that if the education/advertising comes from unofficial sources, people will tend to be more open to listening to that than hearing it from an official source ie: TransLink.

I also tend to agree that we should just keep the system as is now and just pull the paper ticket completely.  Once a passenger has a Go Card, that's the end of the story for them, they can keep it and top it up as they need to, even if they are an infrequent user, just tell them to keep it in their wallet full time, with every other card!

[somebody]

We need to allow top ups on BT buses!

[#Metro]

I think with the last 20%, no amount of advertising or indirect user education will work.  I did Marketing at uni earlier this year and people do have a natural inclination to block messages coming in.  In fact, we get exposed to hundreds of adverts everyday, but only really remember one or two as was demonstrated by the Lecturer.  I think now it's time to get personal with that 20% and do one on one advertising and user education just as that driver was doing yesterday, I really think it's the only way the message will get out to people if we go towards a paperless ticket system.  Who's up to doing some direct advertising/user education whenever you get the bus/train/ferry and see a hapless paper ticket user?  I also think that if the education/advertising comes from unofficial sources, people will tend to be more open to listening to that than hearing it from an official source ie: TransLink.

That's why there is the price differential. People don't listen unless it whacks them in the pocket. Same with free parking etc etc...
There are things that still need to be ironed out with the card system if you want to go to full paperless. What to do with people coming from far distance (how much should it cost, $11 probs not going to cut it), how should it be trialled (the P buses might give a clue, but all this has done is create more bus routes and extra duplication - one for ticket one for non-ticket, ridiculous) etcetera.

We need to allow top ups on BT buses!

I don't support top-ups on BT buses. Lots of buses go via busways now why can't people use the ticket machine?
Last thing I want is to be at CC in peak hour and having people topping up on the bus. And what is with the ticket machines only topping up in increments and accepting notes for top ups? Why can't I get rid of my small change in that machine?

[STB]

Lots of BT buses aren't near a top up machine.  It'd be fine to not allow on board top ups on the busway and perhaps at bus interchanges where an AVVM is supplied, but certainly not out in the burbs.

EDIT: If people don't listen unless it whacks them in the pocket, then why do we have people still purchasing paper tickets?  If that was the case, people would switch to Go Card a lot sooner.  The cost factor will come, lets think about it than just simply throwing all these 'problems' up in the air without anything constructive to see what could be done about it.

Perhaps those who are travelling from say Nambour to Brisbane need to purchase a $20 pre loaded card from the station office.  However, you could keep buses at $10 pre loaded as most don't go any further zone wise that would push the price over $10 to travel on that one bus route.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm not too fussed about paper tickets. If they do go to a only gocard option I'd like to see it be progressive such as certain routes/areas automatically being pre paid only. Anything to do with Brisbane city travel should be prepaid (Maybe allowing certain routes... say the half hourly/hourly frequency services that are starting in the city during offpeak/at night). Any travel along/via a busway should be prepaid (Once they leave the busway and enter the burbs ticket purchases become an option again). Routes futher out such as feeders should be mixed. BUZ routes should and already should be prepaid only.

[ozbob]

On board top-ups work fine out here at Goodna.  With BT, I think it is as STB suggested, routes like a 467 top ups should be allowed.  Busway and prepaid routes probably not.

Make the feeder buses, the buses that people catch to journey to a transit hub (railway station, bus station and the like) available for a top-up.  Pax would soon learn which routes they can top-up on.  This would further support public transport use.   The other operators manage to do it fine.

[STB]

I don't agree that BUZ routes should be prepaid only.  For some people the BUZ route is all that they have.  BUZ routes should be fine to have on board top ups.  If you are on the busway though, then use the AVVM, any service along the busway is prepaid.  C'mon people, it's not rocket science, keep it simple!

[STB]

If you want to have a list of where places should be prepaid (no on board top ups allowed), this is what I think.

Queen St Bus Station
King George Square Busway Station
All Busway stations on the INB, SEB, EB and Boggo Road.
All AVVM equpped bus interchanges (Capalaba bus interchange still doesn't have an AVVM installed amazingly.)
All stops in the City (improved signage and education about where you can top up in Brisbane City would need to be done).
All prepaid bus routes as current.

Everywhere else though you should be able to top up, suggest a $20 maximum top up limit on BT buses, $50 maximum on private bus company services as it is now.

[somebody]

I'd send the 222 back to pre-paid also.

Indooroopilly interchange still doesn't have an AVVM either.

[STB]

I should mention too that Victoria Point bus station doesn't have an AVVM either, and this is probably more urgent than Capalaba with the number of islanders who catch the 250/280 filled with their trolleys of shopping still juggling their wallets and pension cards to buy a paper ticket.

[SurfRail]

If you want to have a list of where places should be prepaid (no on board top ups allowed), this is what I think.

Queen St Bus Station
King George Square Busway Station
All Busway stations on the INB, SEB, EB and Boggo Road.
All AVVM equpped bus interchanges (Capalaba bus interchange still doesn't have an AVVM installed amazingly.)
All stops in the City (improved signage and education about where you can top up in Brisbane City would need to be done).
All prepaid bus routes as current.

Everywhere else though you should be able to top up, suggest a $20 maximum top up limit on BT buses, $50 maximum on private bus company services as it is now.

It wouldn't also hurt for identification purposes to rebrand routes like the 111, 169 and 555 as 'P' routes considering they would be entirely prepaid under the above - and fairly sensible - guidelines.  More AVVM's should be rolled out too - Pacific Fair could do with one as there is no convenient retailer, whereas Australia Fair has a 7-11 fronting onto the southbound stop so it wouldn't be an issue there.

[STB]

If you want to have a list of where places should be prepaid (no on board top ups allowed), this is what I think.

Queen St Bus Station
King George Square Busway Station
All Busway stations on the INB, SEB, EB and Boggo Road.
All AVVM equpped bus interchanges (Capalaba bus interchange still doesn't have an AVVM installed amazingly.)
All stops in the City (improved signage and education about where you can top up in Brisbane City would need to be done).
All prepaid bus routes as current.

Everywhere else though you should be able to top up, suggest a $20 maximum top up limit on BT buses, $50 maximum on private bus company services as it is now.

It wouldn't also hurt for identification purposes to rebrand routes like the 111, 169 and 555 as 'P' routes considering they would be entirely prepaid under the above - and fairly sensible - guidelines.  More AVVM's should be rolled out too - Pacific Fair could do with one as there is no convenient retailer, whereas Australia Fair has a 7-11 fronting onto the southbound stop so it wouldn't be an issue there.

So the list of all day prepaid (no on board top ups allowed) services would include routes 66, 88, 109 (based on the above suggested guidelines if you board the 109 in the city you would use one of the retailers in the city), 111, arguably 160, 169, Cityglider and 555.  I think that's all of them.

Yes Simon, I understand the sentiment but for consistency purposes, the 222 should remain as it is, non-prepaid as it wouldn't sit under any of those suggested guidelines with it servicing Old Cleveland Road, plus that one stop Kismet Street.  At the end of the day we need to think about the consumer and keep it as simple and as consistent as possible so the average joe blow user can understand it.

[STB]

Infrequent users without a Go Card?

Now this is debatable.  You could say that on the railway being mostly a long distance carrier, you could probably argue that you need to price Go Cards differently than say on a bus.  Plus the AVVMs installed would need to be upgraded but I would be hesitant in selling Concession Go Cards via AVVMs, this could be overcome by having Go Cards being sold/given out at Centrelink
for those with pension cards and other related cards, and universities, TAFEs and schools handing them out as standard as part of you getting your ID card.

For universities, TAFEs and Schools, they could fall under a standard $20 cost that is covered as part of your normal uni/TAFE/school costs, so the Go Card could be given out as 'free' at the point of getting your ID card already loaded with $20 credit.  The staff who do the ID cards could also update the Go Card with the expiry date of your student ID Card at the same time of getting your student ID card.  It's all done at the same time as part of the one process.

At Centrelink, you could ask for a one off deduction that covers your $20 pre loaded Go Card and at the point of getting your Pension card approved, this could be sent out or given out with the expiry date already locked in by the Centrelink staff when you get your Go Card.  When you need to update your pension card, you just hand in your Go Card that you got from Centrelink and get the date updated once your pension card (or other related approved benefit) gets approved by Centrelink.

In both of these circumstances, if you already have your Go Card somehow, then just say that you already have one and show it to them.  They can verify the card and you're good to go.

AVVMs in this case would just continue to sell Adult Go Cards.  What price however, I'm not sure exactly.  But I think $20 across the board would make things simple on both bus/ferry and trains. ($5 deposit, $15 travel credit).

For those coming in from interstate/overseas, sell $20 cards at Airports/hotels/tourist information centres.  Again, $20 ($5 deposit and $15 travel credit) all with the appropriate educational information about how to use it from the point of sale.  And when the tourist is done, get it refunded when you head back to the airport/hotel/tourist information centre when you are finished using it.

[#Metro]

Lots of BT buses aren't near a top up machine.  It'd be fine to not allow on board top ups on the busway and perhaps at bus interchanges where an AVVM is supplied, but certainly not out in the burbs.

EDIT: If people don't listen unless it whacks them in the pocket, then why do we have people still purchasing paper tickets?  If that was the case, people would switch to Go Card a lot sooner.  The cost factor will come, lets think about it than just simply throwing all these 'problems' up in the air without anything constructive to see what could be done about it.

Perhaps those who are travelling from say Nambour to Brisbane need to purchase a $20 pre loaded card from the station office.  However, you could keep buses at $10 pre loaded as most don't go any further zone wise that would push the price over $10 to travel on that one bus route.

The reason why people pay more for paper tickets is because there is something about a paper ticket that they prefer. Otherwise they wouldn't buy it. Maybe they're scared of Go Card (you'll be surprised how many people are reluctant to use ATMs, Mobile Phones and Internet), they're just too lazy to get one or infrequent that they can't be bothered, or they just forgot.

I just don't know. If you want a 100% Go Card environment with cards on board, you'd have to fork out $10 or so to catch the bus (if you forgot or whatnot, oops!). I know  I dontsome people might not care , but how popular is that going to be with the public? I don't like it when people say 'let's FORCE people on to GoCard'. The fact that there is a group of people that don't use it indicates something- we need to find out what that something is.

[STB]

Lots of BT buses aren't near a top up machine.  It'd be fine to not allow on board top ups on the busway and perhaps at bus interchanges where an AVVM is supplied, but certainly not out in the burbs.

EDIT: If people don't listen unless it whacks them in the pocket, then why do we have people still purchasing paper tickets?  If that was the case, people would switch to Go Card a lot sooner.  The cost factor will come, lets think about it than just simply throwing all these 'problems' up in the air without anything constructive to see what could be done about it.

Perhaps those who are travelling from say Nambour to Brisbane need to purchase a $20 pre loaded card from the station office.  However, you could keep buses at $10 pre loaded as most don't go any further zone wise that would push the price over $10 to travel on that one bus route.

The reason why people pay more for paper tickets is because there is something about a paper ticket that they prefer. Otherwise they wouldn't buy it. Maybe they're scared of Go Card (you'll be surprised how many people are reluctant to use ATMs, Mobile Phones and Internet), they're just too lazy to get one or infrequent that they can't be bothered, or they just forgot.

I just don't know. If you want a 100% Go Card environment with cards on board, you'd have to fork out $10 or so to catch the bus (if you forgot or whatnot, oops!). I know  I dontsome people might not care , but how popular is that going to be with the public? I don't like it when people say 'let's FORCE people on to GoCard'. The fact that there is a group of people that don't use it indicates something- we need to find out what that something is.

Isn't that a personal issue though?  Something that Government shouldn't be doing is spoon feeding for those who are just simply technophobes? At the end of the day, the Government should be dealing with the broader issues, not one on one personal issues such as being afraid of using new technology, like the Go Card.

[#Metro]

I think what is required is a GoCard survey, open to the public, along the lines of the PT survey that RailBot just concluded.

This would allow us to gauge why people don't use go card and what can be improved etc. The fare increase will be perfect time as focus would be all on that too.

I'd also wonder if we could test the relationship between price and frequency and also even service patterns (example- show images of PID's with proposed service patterns and then have a question/vote on that).

[STB]

I think what is required is a GoCard survey, open to the public, along the lines of the PT survey that RailBot just concluded.

This would allow us to gauge why people don't use go card and what can be improved etc. The fare increase will be perfect time as focus would be all on that too.

I'd also wonder if we could test the relationship between price and frequency and also even service patterns (example- show images of PID's with proposed service patterns and then have a question/vote on that).

I agree with that and have been talking to others privately about doing something just like that.  However, at the same time we need to provide a possible solution to that last 20% so they know what they could use if they did switch to Go Card and eventually a paperless ticketing environment.

[#Metro]

Isn't that a personal issue though?  Something that Government shouldn't be doing is spoon feeding for those who are just simply technophobes? At the end of the day, the Government should be dealing with the broader issues, not one on one personal issues such as being afraid of using new technology, like the Go Card.

Whatever the reason, even if there is NO reason, people are behaving that way.
If we don't find out why, if there isn't due care and thought to things, and you just FORCE something down their throats, might I add also on the eve of an upcoming election, that isn't going to go down well.

I posted a response a few seconds after yours STB, part of the answer is covered by that post.

[STB]

The PIDs/service frequency IMO is a separate issue.  I'd rather not cloud the issue of frequency with buying and using Go Cards, which is the core of the matter.

[#Metro]

The PIDs/service frequency IMO is a separate issue.  I'd rather not cloud the issue of frequency with buying and using Go Cards, which is the core of the matter.

The transport survey was pretty broad and covered many aspects, some even unrelated. I don't see why one survey could not be done with questions about pricing in it or whatnot.
Service standards / frequency might be another matter, but that is also linked to pricing. Do we care about price or value for money? The difference is price is untied to product, whereas value for money you make explicit what you're getting.

questions like "are the fares too much" of course people are going to dump their whinges.

questions like "would you pay more if services on the network are upgraded to 15 minutes" might be a bit less biased, for example.

As for PID's that's not what I meant. I meant if you were proposing a service pattern you could do a test to see which one people preferred by drawing up a PID diagram or draft timetable ( I described such a thing in the debate some of us had about Ipswich line / Richlands line service patterns).

[STB]

The PIDs/service frequency IMO is a separate issue.  I'd rather not cloud the issue of frequency with buying and using Go Cards, which is the core of the matter.

The transport survey was pretty broad and covered many aspects, some even unrelated. I don't see why one survey could not be done with questions about pricing in it or whatnot.
Service standards / frequency might be another matter, but that is also linked to pricing. Do we care about price or value for money? The difference is price is untied to product, whereas value for money you make explicit what you're getting.

questions like "are the fares too much" of course people are going to dump their whinges.

questions like "would you pay more if services on the network are upgraded to 15 minutes" might be a bit less biased, for example.

Yes but I don't see how frequency is attached to buying a ticket in this case, Go Card, if you intend on using public transport anyway.  The core questions are, why aren't you using a Go Card?  And what structure in order to buy a Go Card would you prefer?

[STB]

Okay with the PIDs, but that is a completely separate issue to what we are working out here and trying to understand and deal with.  I love your eagerness but one thing at a time TramTrain .

[#Metro]

I don't agree that BUZ routes should be prepaid only.  For some people the BUZ route is all that they have.  BUZ routes should be fine to have on board top ups.  If you are on the busway though, then use the AVVM, any service along the busway is prepaid.  C'mon people, it's not rocket science, keep it simple!

I think a lot of people, if asked, would just say "I like paper" of course when that isn't really why they're buying paper (who buys paper tickets soley because it is printed on paper- collectors only perhaps!). No, there is some other reason... convenience maybe? not frequent user? Something else? Fares_Fair could perhaps throw some light on this - I remember 'say no to go card' being used as his profile picture once...

I would suggest a TRIAL RUN PROGRAMME (even though I personally don't believe paper should be withdrawn but so what) on buses. In fact you could roll this idea purely on BUZ buses only in the BT area or on select routes to test the reaction first.

That way, it if is a mistake, you limit the damage...

[STB]

I don't agree that BUZ routes should be prepaid only.  For some people the BUZ route is all that they have.  BUZ routes should be fine to have on board top ups.  If you are on the busway though, then use the AVVM, any service along the busway is prepaid.  C'mon people, it's not rocket science, keep it simple!

I think a lot of people, if asked, would just say "I like paper" of course when that isn't really why they're buying paper (who buys paper tickets soley because it is printed on paper- collectors only perhaps!). No, there is some other reason... convenience maybe? not frequent user? Something else? Fares_Fair could perhaps throw some light on this - I remember 'say no to go card' being used as his profile picture once...

I would suggest a TRIAL RUN PROGRAMME (even though I personally don't believe paper should be withdrawn but so what) on buses. In fact you could roll this idea purely on BUZ buses only in the BT area or on select routes to test the reaction first.

That way, it if is a mistake, you limit the damage...

Well that's just common sense and would need to be done regardless as this would be a rather big change for a lot of people, especially the final 20%.  The trial run could sort out any bugs with a proposed Go Card buying/top up structure and refine the final process.  You would probably also need to implement on a region to region basis just as they did when the integrated ticketing came on board back in 2004 and when the Go Card came online back in 2007/2008.

[somebody]

So the list of all day prepaid (no on board top ups allowed) services would include routes 66, 88, 109 (based on the above suggested guidelines if you board the 109 in the city you would use one of the retailers in the city), 111, arguably 160, 169, Cityglider and 555.  I think that's all of them.

Yes Simon, I understand the sentiment but for consistency purposes, the 222 should remain as it is, non-prepaid as it wouldn't sit under any of those suggested guidelines with it servicing Old Cleveland Road, plus that one stop Kismet Street.  At the end of the day we need to think about the consumer and keep it as simple and as consistent as possible so the average joe blow user can understand it.

Hmm, Pre-Pay is OK for the 88 on Coro Dr/Moggill Rd and for the 111 BUZ but not OK for the 222 on Old Cleveland Rd!?

Lack of pre-pay on the 66 is mediocrity without question.  It's a no brainer regardless of AVVM or not.  Pretty sure there are AVVMs at all its stops anyway.

[STB]

So the list of all day prepaid (no on board top ups allowed) services would include routes 66, 88, 109 (based on the above suggested guidelines if you board the 109 in the city you would use one of the retailers in the city), 111, arguably 160, 169, Cityglider and 555.  I think that's all of them.

Yes Simon, I understand the sentiment but for consistency purposes, the 222 should remain as it is, non-prepaid as it wouldn't sit under any of those suggested guidelines with it servicing Old Cleveland Road, plus that one stop Kismet Street.  At the end of the day we need to think about the consumer and keep it as simple and as consistent as possible so the average joe blow user can understand it.

Hmm, Pre-Pay is OK for the 88 on Coro Dr/Moggill Rd and for the 111 BUZ but not OK for the 222 on Old Cleveland Rd!?

Lack of pre-pay on the 66 is mediocrity without question.  It's a no brainer regardless of AVVM or not.  Pretty sure there are AVVMs at all its stops anyway.

I completely agree with you re: route 66.  I'm amazed that TransLink hasn't turned the 66 into a pre-paid service as it is a busway only service.

Okay on the 88, but I was thinking at the time of maintaining the status quo, however, I suppose if you wanted it to fit within those guidelines, then perhaps the 88 should be taken off from the pre-paid list?  I wouldn't be too bothered by that if that did happen.  The pre-paid route 88 thing was more of a marketing tool to get people on board the service in the first place I strongly suspect.

[somebody]

I was thinking at the time of maintaining the status quo,

No kidding.

[ozbob]

I was thinking at the time of maintaining the status quo,

No kidding.

[STB]

I was thinking at the time of maintaining the status quo,

No kidding.

 

[ozbob]

It is a very decisive poll ..

Fly kites?, the reality is that most folks appreciate the benefits .. 

Let's go!

[STB]

If you want to have a list of where places should be prepaid (no on board top ups allowed), this is what I think.

Queen St Bus Station
King George Square Busway Station
All Busway stations on the INB, SEB, EB and Boggo Road.
All AVVM equpped bus interchanges (Capalaba bus interchange still doesn't have an AVVM installed amazingly.)
All stops in the City (improved signage and education about where you can top up in Brisbane City would need to be done).
All prepaid bus routes as current.

Everywhere else though you should be able to top up, suggest a $20 maximum top up limit on BT buses, $50 maximum on private bus company services as it is now.

Just to go a step further, I'd probably rule out buying Go Cards and topping up Go Cards at these locations on board buses at all times.  Want a Go Card, or wish to top up, visit a retailer, nearest railway station or at an AVVM, all of which are available at those suggested locations.

[dwb]

"Slashed the cost to $6"...? That is the card issue fee right? The fee that in Qld is currently set at $5 but waived. Cards here are free, you just pay a deposit. This $1 thing is a sidetrack and not a useful one.... we already get the card for less than one dollar, we get it free, doesn't anyone get that?? You need the deposit so that people can board when they have "10c" on their account... it is an artificial way to set zero so that people recharge in time/before they run out of cash, it means nothing, it is refundable... give back the card get back the $5.... why are we still going on about this???

I'm sure what is proposed is reducing the deposit to $1.  Seems to open something of a loophole.
[/quote]

So then, I'm just going to say it sounds like a stupid idea on all levels... that would then make any trip $1 in cost (in practice). How can this forum seriously be suggesting that is a good policy?

[Gazza]

Because other systems charge much less for the card, or even give it out for free (Eg Myway)

[O_128]

People are over thinking this, scrap paper. the end, It's the same as south brisbane station closure, people will adapt.

[HappyTrainGuy]

BRING BACK CONDUCTORS!!!... Oh wait....   

[Gazza]

The Airtrain rort that you can potentially do...Well, nobody thinks to do it. I never have before it was mentioned, and its not like it comes up on the comments sections in media articles about the Airtrain.