Phase out paper single tickets?

[#Metro]

Is there any word on the grapevine that anyone in Government is wanting to remove paper tickets?  Or is it just silence, things are perfectly fine as they are, we're not going to change anything type mindset happening?

I think they should be scrapped before the new year comes in. The reason? The paper fares for ONE ZONE will break the $5 barrier! MADNESS!!

It will cost $5 just to cross the Brisbane river on a ferry. That's HIGHER than Clem 7 or AirportLink tolls.

[James]

Is there any word on the grapevine that anyone in Government is wanting to remove paper tickets?  Or is it just silence, things are perfectly fine as they are, we're not going to change anything type mindset happening?

I believe it was already the intention of the government to scrap paper tickets at one point - sometime in 2011, I believe. However, as with all things in the Blight (with a silent t) government, it got put on the never-never and never started in the first place, mostly because the government was inept and too focussed on spending excessive amounts of money on 1km stretches of busway which do not save resources.

In terms of this government, I don't think they're going to be scrapping paper any time soon. It would be the logical thing to do, but Queensland starts with Q, so it cannot be done. I think it is also because they are a huge cash cow, regardless of whether they reduce families to tears.

[STB]

Is there any word on the grapevine that anyone in Government is wanting to remove paper tickets?  Or is it just silence, things are perfectly fine as they are, we're not going to change anything type mindset happening?

I believe it was already the intention of the government to scrap paper tickets at one point - sometime in 2011, I believe. However, as with all things in the Blight (with a silent t) government, it got put on the never-never and never started in the first place, mostly because the government was inept and too focussed on spending excessive amounts of money on 1km stretches of busway which do not save resources.

In terms of this government, I don't think they're going to be scrapping paper any time soon. It would be the logical thing to do, but Queensland starts with Q, so it cannot be done. I think it is also because they are a huge cash cow, regardless of whether they reduce families to tears.

There were some fears raised back then regarding irregular users and tourists of the system, even on this forum IIRC.  I'm assuming the Government was aware of those fears and decided to play it safe and try to cater for two types of passengers.

Also, the Go Card was still relatively young back then as well, and still finding it to get established in the community, unlike today which for the most part is used and used without any major issues.

[ozbob]

Is there any word on the grapevine that anyone in Government is wanting to remove paper tickets?  Or is it just silence, things are perfectly fine as they are, we're not going to change anything type mindset happening?

song ...   

[ozbob]

Media release 6th November 2013



SEQ: Santa to deliver more high fare cost explosions?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers says that as it stands public transport passengers are in for more nasty fare surprises from Santa - across the board 7.5% fare hikes in January 2014.

"Fares in SEQ have become unaffordable and are reaching ridiculous levels (1). The cost to travel just one zone on a paper ticket will break the $5 barrier for the first time. That's $5 just to travel down the street or catch a ferry to the other side of the Brisbane River. We think it is ridiculous that it will cost more to cross the Brisbane River on Public Transport than to use Clem 7 or AirportLink toll roads."

"South East Queensland has some of the highest fares in the world and they are set to become even higher. It is our opinion that the source of these fare hikes lies with Brisbane City Council and their bus cost explosion because they rejected the TransLink bus review. This is pushing up fares to very high levels not only in Brisbane but in neighbouring council areas as well. Brisbane City Council insists on conserving its 'taxi style' direct service bus network. The effect is that everyone will pay 'taxi style fares'. And that's really what we are seeing. The high costs are going to hurt pensioners, people on welfare, low income earners but most of all, unemployed job-seekers who do not qualify for concession fares in Queensland (2).

"To be fair, there is some good news for passengers though, Queensland Rail will see the largest upgrade to train frequency in Queensland's history come into effect in January which will increase the value for money that rail passengers experience."

"RAIL Back on Track calls for the total abolition of paper ticketing. Melbourne has abolished paper tickets and sells transit smart cards on buses. Why can't Queensland do the same? Cross River ferries that perform the same functions as a bridge should be made free for the same reasons pedestrians are not given $5 tolls to walk across the Victoria or Story Bridges."

"The public will not pay ever escalating fares. Ultimately the Queensland Government needs to deal with the root source of the problem: Brisbane City Council and Brisbane Transport."

References:

1. Public transport performance data http://translink.com.au/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/public-transport-performance-data

2. Health care cards and concession fares around the nation http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9124.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[James]

There were some fears raised back then regarding irregular users and tourists of the system, even on this forum IIRC.  I'm assuming the Government was aware of those fears and decided to play it safe and try to cater for two types of passengers.

Also, the Go Card was still relatively young back then as well, and still finding it to get established in the community, unlike today which for the most part is used and used without any major issues.

I wouldn't consider the go card 'young' in 2011. Provided go cards were sold on board, it shouldn't be an issue. Remembering that an adult one-zone go card fare will be <$3 off-peak next year, while a one-zone paper ticket will be >$5. Huge discrepancy, paper tickets are like daylight robbery.

[kazzac]

yes I agree ,paper tickets should go! even an occasional PT user like myself would rather use my Go Card for travelling on PT,I top it up with $20 about once a month for when I might want to catch a bus into the city on weekends .i don't drive my car into the city,parking is too expensive,

[ozbob]

Mirror --> Bus drivers will no longer accept cash for fares in London

[ozbob]

TfL --> London buses to go cashless from mid 2014

London buses to go cashless from mid 2014

03 February 2014

Transport for London (TfL) has today announced that it is to stop accepting cash fares on London buses from summer this year.

'Paying with Oyster or a contactless payment card is not only the cheapest option, but also speeds up boarding times at bus stops and reduces delays
Managing Director for TfL Surface Transport, Leon Daniels

Cash fares make up one per cent of bus journeys - down from around 25 per cent a decade ago.

Since launching on the bus network in December 2012, over 8 million journeys have now been made using a contactless payment card.

With the acceptance of contactless payment cards to be extended to London Underground and London Rail services from later this year, the use of cash is expected to continue to fall.

A recent public consultation, which sought customers' views on proposals to withdraw cash fare payments, attracted over 37,000 responses. 

Around a third of respondents agreed with the proposal to remove cash fares.

Around three quarters of responses to the consultation came from people who indicated that they do not themselves pay cash fares on the bus.

We have taken into account all of the views expressed in consultation responses and have used these to shape a range of measures that will ensure a smooth transition to the new arrangements.

These measures include:

    Introducing a new 'one more journey' feature on Oyster that will allow passengers with less than the single bus fare (currently £1.45) but who have a positive balance on their card to make one more bus journey before they have to add credit to their card
    A review of the Oyster Ticket Stop network to see if additional locations can be identified, particularly in outer London
    Refreshed guidance for all 24,500 London bus drivers to ensure a consistent approach is taken when dealing with vulnerable passengers
    A public information campaign to increase awareness of the benefits of contactless payment cards and Oyster pay as you go, which offer a single bus fare for 95p less than the current cash fare

This change will not affect 99 per cent of bus passengers who already pay for their journeys using Oyster, prepaid tickets, contactless payment cards or concessionary tickets.

The latter group represents a third of passengers and includes children and young people, older and disabled people and the unemployed. 

Our research shows this change is also unlikely to affect tourists as the vast majority use a prepaid ticket, such as Oyster, to get around the capital.

Leon Daniels, Managing Director for TfL Surface Transport said:

'The decision to stop accepting cash fares on London buses reflects the changing way that people pay for goods and services in our city, including journeys on the bus network.

'We are introducing a range of measures, including a new 'one more journey'  feature on Oyster cards, which will ensure that people can still make a journey and then top up their card when they don't have the full fare.

'Paying with Oyster or a contactless payment card is not only the cheapest option, but also speeds up boarding times at bus stops and reduces delays.

It costs £24 million a year to accept cash on London's buses and by removing this option we will generate significant savings which, like all of our income, will be reinvested in improvements to the transport network.'

[ozbob]

... It costs £24 million a year to accept cash on London's buses and by removing this option we will generate significant savings which, like all of our income, will be reinvested in improvements to the transport network.' ...

Interesting ...

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

4th February 2014

Re: SEQ: TransLink confirm ongoing fare failure and affordability crisis in SEQ

Greetings,

Transport for London has announced that London Buses are to go cashless from mid 2014.  http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29557.aspx

Main drivers for this are cost savings, they estimate it costs them 24 million pounds are year to continue to accept cash.

Also speeds up boarding times at bus stops and reduces delays.

There is some ' low hanging fruit ' on the public transport network in SEQ?  Time to pull the obscenely priced paper single tickets  in SEQ?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Media release 6th November 2013



SEQ: Santa to deliver more high fare cost explosions?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers says that as it stands public transport passengers are in for more nasty fare surprises from Santa - across the board 7.5% fare hikes in January 2014.

"Fares in SEQ have become unaffordable and are reaching ridiculous levels (1). The cost to travel just one zone on a paper ticket will break the $5 barrier for the first time. That's $5 just to travel down the street or catch a ferry to the other side of the Brisbane River. We think it is ridiculous that it will cost more to cross the Brisbane River on Public Transport than to use Clem 7 or AirportLink toll roads."

"South East Queensland has some of the highest fares in the world and they are set to become even higher. It is our opinion that the source of these fare hikes lies with Brisbane City Council and their bus cost explosion because they rejected the TransLink bus review. This is pushing up fares to very high levels not only in Brisbane but in neighbouring council areas as well. Brisbane City Council insists on conserving its 'taxi style' direct service bus network. The effect is that everyone will pay 'taxi style fares'. And that's really what we are seeing. The high costs are going to hurt pensioners, people on welfare, low income earners but most of all, unemployed job-seekers who do not qualify for concession fares in Queensland (2).

"To be fair, there is some good news for passengers though, Queensland Rail will see the largest upgrade to train frequency in Queensland's history come into effect in January which will increase the value for money that rail passengers experience."

"RAIL Back on Track calls for the total abolition of paper ticketing. Melbourne has abolished paper tickets and sells transit smart cards on buses. Why can't Queensland do the same? Cross River ferries that perform the same functions as a bridge should be made free for the same reasons pedestrians are not given $5 tolls to walk across the Victoria or Story Bridges."

"The public will not pay ever escalating fares. Ultimately the Queensland Government needs to deal with the root source of the problem: Brisbane City Council and Brisbane Transport."

References:

1. Public transport performance data http://translink.com.au/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/public-transport-performance-data

2. Health care cards and concession fares around the nation http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9124.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Derwan]

London is leading the way.... but we need to be able to accept contactless payments first.  I personally don't support the withdrawal of paper tickets without it.

My reasoning... if I'm visiting another city and will only make a few trips by public transport, I just want to turn up and go.  I don't want to spend time researching what kind of card their system uses, making sure I have a chance to buy it first and then working out what to do with it when I'm done.  That's a ridiculous prospect for someone making a couple of trips while they're in town.  I'm happy to pay a couple of bucks extra for the convenience of just turning up and travelling.

Contactless is now on virtually every card and the majority of people would have one.  It's a viable alternative to paying cash for a single ticket.

[ozbob]

I think the next iteration of the AFC here in SEQ will see the full monty I expect ..

The practical issue is now the cost of paper is such (extreme cost)  it is getting cheaper to get a go card even with the deposit for a couple of days.  If go cards are sold on buses as in Melbourne, no problems.  They are doing well and have made good strides with reducing fare evasion since they pulled paper.

The are too risk averse in SEQ for any meaningful improvements for now.  Other jurisdictions just get on with it ..

[#Metro]

FULL MONTY PLEASE!!!

Why should my personalised BT home rocket (161) sell paper tickets?! That's for commoners!
We do not use paper tickets.

Melbourne does not use paper, nor does Stockholm and now London too

[#Metro]

http://www.humantransit.org/2014/01/ask-your-transit-agency-about-mobile-ticketing.html

Everyone! This is the next app that Every Serious Transit Agency Needs to Implement ASAP.  It could easily be as transformative as realtime information. 

A while back, our Portland transit agency Tri-Met unveiled a mobile ticketing app, which my colleague Evan Landman reviewed here.  It allows you to purchase tickets in bulk with a credit card and store them on your phone.  When you need one, you push a button and a "ticket" appears on your phone, very much like an airline boarding pass.  Right now in Portland, you just show that to the driver, but before long I expect we'll scan a barcode just as we do to board airplanes. 

[ozbob]

The only thing that needs to happen is sell go cards on buses.  It is cheaper to buy a go card now than to buy paper tickets, even for rare users.

But don't fret, this mob couldn't organise a birthday party at the golden arches.  Screw the masses is their motto. 

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Recent trips on the 526 bus and similar runs has confirmed the very people who are predominantly buying paper tickets are the one's in reality least able to afford it. Strange but true .. Getting rid of paper would not only help people it would greatly improve bus efficiency as well. 

In 2016 it may go ...  until then, mediocrity will no doubt continue ...

[#Metro]

There are phone apps now where people can buy prepaid "Text tickets" (not sure if they have QR code in them) beforehand with a bank card. Almost all bank cards are integrated with credit/debitcard functionality. I think this is a good scheme for occasional use.

[techblitz]

The only thing that needs to happen is sell go cards on buses.  It is cheaper to buy a go card now than to buy paper tickets, even for rare users.

But don't fret, this mob couldn't organise a birthday party at the golden arches.  Screw the masses is their motto. 

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Recent trips on the 526 bus and similar runs has confirmed the very people who are predominantly buying paper tickets are the one's in reality least able to afford it. Strange but true .. Getting rid of paper would not only help people it would greatly improve bus efficiency as well. 

In 2016 it may go ...  until then, mediocrity will no doubt continue ...

but why are people who have more reason to watch their pennies than others buying paper tickets? The costs are out there, its been 4 years + now sicne Go-card arrived.

i would say its a budgeting situation whereby a lot of  struggletown commuters just dont like to have money sitting idle on a gocard that they rarely use. These same commuters dont have regular public transport schedules or budgets.They usually take it day by day....
and hey lets face it...more opportunities to pull a sly one on the bus driver with the old 20/50 dollar note trick

[James]

but why are people who have more reason to watch their pennies than others buying paper tickets? The costs are out there, its been 4 years + now sicne Go-card arrived.

Some of them simply cannot be bothered buying a go card. Its a shame really. It is not that difficult to save up $10 either... especially given the savings. It is not a big amount of money. And techblitz, 50s are generally the one which works.

[Derwan]

The only thing that needs to happen is sell go cards on buses.  It is cheaper to buy a go card now than to buy paper tickets, even for rare users.

Not really.  If you are visiting Brisbane and will only do just one or two trips, it costs the fare plus the $10 deposit on the card and then you've got to work out how to get your $10 back.

There needs to be an option for visitors to simply buy and go - and not have to worry about how the card works and how to get your deposit back after one day!!

[SurfRail]

I've just spent the last 4 days travelling around Melbourne and regional Victoria and one thing is abundantly clear to me - apologists for paper tickets need to get over it.

Melbourne has considerably more visitors than SEQ does.  Melbourne's trams trains and buses, regional town buses and most V/Line train services are exclusively on myki, and still somehow 550 million people manage to be able to use PT all across the state each year.

Just kill it off, quickly.

[Stillwater]

Your thoughts on V/Line services to regional cities, SurfRail?

[ozbob]

Yo SurfRail, the sooner paper pulled the better for all.  The only real problem is BT as usual ... 

[ozbob]

RTT better for the taxpayer?  What nonsense.  It costs to have duplicate systems. It compounds operating costs and inefficiency of bus routes. It complicates data collection, it makes it harder to monitor fare evasion.   Punters should not be penalised because of a broader failure to properly embed the go card system.

Majority here want paper removed for the obvious reasons.  Fact of life really. 

London is removing paper from their buses, it will save 24 million pounds annually.  Savings here proportionally smaller but overall of great benefit to an improved system.

[ozbob]

I've just spent the last 4 days travelling around Melbourne and regional Victoria and one thing is abundantly clear to me - apologists for paper tickets need to get over it.

Melbourne has considerably more visitors than SEQ does.  Melbourne's trams trains and buses, regional town buses and most V/Line train services are exclusively on myki, and still somehow 550 million people manage to be able to use PT all across the state each year.

Just kill it off, quickly.

Yes, despite the protestations of doom in January 2013 when paper pulled in Melbourne, has worked out fine, as it always was going too ...

Queensland?  LOL ...

[techblitz]

Rosy in melbourne indeed...amazing what beefed up patrols can achieve

In October 2013 the observed level of passengers boarding buses without paying any fare declined to 7.3 per cent from 10.4 per cent in May 2013, but remains high compared to the October 2012 (4.9 per cent) and previous years.

@SR

Just because we highlight preferences of a small percentage of paper ticket users in seq..doesnt mean we're sticking up for them and hence advocating paper ticket non-removal...the fact that we are actually noticing these potential issues gives good discussion..


Admin:  Article in this post was from Herald Sun
September 19, 2013

[ozbob]

Cough cough ...

The fare evasion rate across Melbourne's public transport network is at its lowest level in five years, dropping below 9% for the first time since October 2008, Premier Denis Napthine announced today. Premier Denis Napthine said Public Transport Victoria

23 January 2014

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/8936-the-fare-evasion-rate-across-melbourne-s-public-transport-network-is-at-its-lowest-level-in-five-years-dropping-below-9-for-the-first-time-since-october-2008-premier-denis-napthine-announced-today-premier-denis-napthine-said-public-transport-victoria-ptv-.html

[ozbob]

Once paper goes, it becomes easier to target evaders.  For example, watching the departing throng at a station.  Those who don't touch off are easily identified and questioned.  It is also easier to progressively close the system with gates etc. as well.  I expect all ticket passes such as TAP, Vision impairment, Carers etc. to eventually be null go cards in that they will open fare gates.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm all for paper tickets being long gone but currently here they should remain due to the slackness of improving and rolling out access to retail outlets and top up facilities (Has indro even got a ticket/top up machine yet?). Get servos, Coles, Woolies, IGA, 7-11, Australia Post etc to start selling and allowing top ups. Make GoCards easy to buy like walking in and picking up a iTunes, phone, bunnings, myer, target, jbhifi gift card etc. Get some GoCard vending machines at interchanges and railway/busway stations. Once that's addressed by all means bye bye paper tickets. Some bus routes can very easily start the trend by making all busway stations (Including KGSBS/QSBS) and the major interchanges like Taigum, Toombul, Chermside, Aspley, Strathpine, North Lakes etc pre paid only stops. Even change the ticket machines to GoCard vending machines so instead of paying for a ticket you pick up a shiny new GoCard.

[techblitz]

No doubt evasion stats improve with proper enforcement...
But those temp spikes seen from melbourne highlight what can happen if you ease off the pressure....that being said...8 percent is still way too high...the goal should eventually be under 5 percent for melbourne...
Hopefully down to london levels

However, following the introduction of the Oyster card, a fully gated revenue control system across the network and a zero tolerance fare evasion policy, the London Underground now generates revenue in excess of $2.7 billion and current fare evasion is measured at 2.5 percent.

[techblitz]

I'm all for paper tickets being long gone but currently here they should remain due to the slackness of improving and rolling out access to retail outlets and top up facilities (Has indro even got a ticket/top up machine yet?).

Ah yes indro 
Did some pronging around on that with the centre management...who are actually keen for a machine there and will talk to TL but they feel they would have no power to influence TL(correct).
Perhaps its a truncation thing with translink and they feel that due to so many routes passing through( lack of terminators)... They just arent bothering...and hey....must leave space for the 2 drink machines! 

[ozbob]

Guys and Gals, remember this?  --> http://www.northweststar.com.au/story/1422621/push-to-top-up-go-cards-at-all-eftpos-machines/?cs=12

It won't be too much longer ... hopefully ...  but this is Queensland ..

[SurfRail]

Your thoughts on V/Line services to regional cities, SurfRail?

No stated opinion - I have (unfortunately) never caught a V/Line service.  This is the only time I've been outside the metropolitan area and it was by car and a private coach charter.  Never have time when I'm down there to do much outside of the city and eastern suburbs.

[SurfRail]

But those temp spikes seen from melbourne highlight what can happen if you ease off the pressure....that being said...8 percent is still way too high...the goal should eventually be under 5 percent for melbourne...

Melbourne will always be high owing to trams.  No revenue protection whatsoever except for roaming patrols, and probably exacerbated by not having any myki infrastructure on board except for the validators.

Frankly I'm concerned about the Gold Coast heading down the same path.  In particular, I'm concerned about how many readers they intend to position on each platform.  It looks distressingly like there will only be one at each end (and exposed to the elements), but this may only be the ones which have been installed already.

[ozbob]

... Premier Denis Napthine said Public Transport Victoria (PTV) had worked with transport operators to target fare evaders at known hotspots.

"The October 2013 survey shows a drop in fare evasion rates has been recorded across all metropolitan modes of public transport," Dr Napthine said.

"The rate of fare evasion on Melbourne's trains decreased 1.5 per cent to 8.4 per cent, and on buses the decrease was even greater, dropping 4.8 per cent to 11.2 per cent.

"On trams, the fare evasion rate has reduced by half in only two years, from 20.3 per cent in May 2011, to just 8 per cent in October 2013. ...

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/8936-the-fare-evasion-rate-across-melbourne-s-public-transport-network-is-at-its-lowest-level-in-five-years-dropping-below-9-for-the-first-time-since-october-2008-premier-denis-napthine-announced-today-premier-denis-napthine-said-public-transport-victoria-ptv-.html

Incredibly it is the buses taking the cake now ...

[ozbob]

On a visit to Melbourne a couple of years ago, I remember touching on with myki on the tram, the collective group of passengers just stared at me with a  ' who is that crazy man look '  ....  didn't see anyone else touch on on that trip  (was from Carnegie to St Kilda junction from memory).

It does seem that close attention has altered the the situation a bit since then ..

[James]

I'm all for paper tickets being long gone but currently here they should remain due to the slackness of improving and rolling out access to retail outlets and top up facilities (Has indro even got a ticket/top up machine yet?). Get servos, Coles, Woolies, IGA, 7-11, Australia Post etc to start selling and allowing top ups. Make GoCards easy to buy like walking in and picking up a iTunes, phone, bunnings, myer, target, jbhifi gift card etc. Get some GoCard vending machines at interchanges and railway/busway stations. Once that's addressed by all means bye bye paper tickets. Some bus routes can very easily start the trend by making all busway stations (Including KGSBS/QSBS) and the major interchanges like Taigum, Toombul, Chermside, Aspley, Strathpine, North Lakes etc pre paid only stops. Even change the ticket machines to GoCard vending machines so instead of paying for a ticket you pick up a shiny new GoCard.

No AVVM at Indro yet. TransLink will probably make the excuse that pax can walk to the station and top up there or use one of the newsagencies (both options being a pain in the bum when either making a short connection or at night). There is room there for an AVVM on Platform A. Plenty of room at the interchange in general really, aside from between 3:10pm and 4:10pm on a school day. I would argue that you could also put one on Platform C.

Perhaps Centre Managment should walk across the driveway and pop into Scott Emerson's office...

[ozbob]

In 2010 when they were originally going to remove paper, the plan was for a disposable go card product.  They baulked because they said it was too expensive for the disposable tickets  ... LOLOLOL 

All they had to do was put a small premium on the fares on the disposable tickets to cover the cost ...

All together now  .. Q  U  E  E  N  S  L  A  N  D E R!

[ozbob]

I have received reports of evaders ' going over ' at Central, haven't actually seen it yet although have seen plenty of evaders trailing through on the gates.

I have seen evaders ' going over ' the gates at Flinders Street Station though.  Seemed to be a regular event, although maybe they have tightened up of late.

going over =  jumping over the gates themselves

[techblitz]

Just witnessed a really good benefit of the paper ticket machine @ hemmant station 
2 sno's come accross 2 fare evaders on the cleveland bound train....pax make a deal with the officers to hop off @ hemmant and purchase paper tickets. Train leaves before the officers can verify that the 2 passengers actually did purchase the tickets.