Phase out paper single tickets?

[Golliwog]

I thought the USC did some deal with Translink and go cards for students. I can't remember if they did combined student card+go card, but I'm pretty sure the uni did something, gave them credit for it each semester ($60?) or something.

Having no idea about how the inside of the cards work, other than there's a chip and a receiver and whatnot, I have no idea if they could use the same chip for a go card, and for building access.

TT, how do Melbourne concession myki cards do their expiry dates?

[Arnz]

@Golliwog, USC still has the U-Pass integrated Student ID/Go Card.  In fact they're still continuing the trial throughout 2013.

http://www.usc.edu.au/university/campus-and-facilities/maps-transport-and-parking/transport/

[Golliwog]

@Golliwog, USC still has the U-Pass integrated Student ID/Go Card.  In fact they're still continuing the trial throughout 2013.

http://www.usc.edu.au/university/campus-and-facilities/maps-transport-and-parking/transport/

Is it actually the one card though? In the FAQ they talk about the U-Pass expiring and to prevent it doing so, you need to present a valid student card which would suggest it's still two cards.

[somebody]

Concession cards shouldn't be available for sale onboard.  They need to be linked to the relevant concession so they expire.  A big no from me for drivers having to do that at point of sale, and without such a process they will be open to rorting.

Child and seniors cards are fine because they don't expire (all new seniors cards should of course be go cards anyway).

I'd go further and remove all paper tickets bar full fare from sale.  That's something which can be done now.  No sympathy for those that stick with paper.

[Set in train]

There is no problem from selling both adult and concession Go Cards on board.

Users can buy a concession Go Card unregistered from stockists with an expiry date of the end of the year, the same can be done on board.

The long held principle/law applies, you must travel with the appropriate concession card, it is up to the user to be responsible for this.

People are responsible for themselves as adults, they are capable of carrying their concession card, if not, that's what ticket inspectors are for.

Both adult and concession Go Cards in one denomination each should be available at all locations.

[somebody]

There is no problem from selling both adult and concession Go Cards on board.

It might be manageable to do so.  I was more looking at what can be done now, and removing concession paper tickets, no sympathy, seems achievable without fearing union crap.

I bet the union will have something to say about selling go cards on board.  Probably due to the amount of money being carried by the driver.

[Arnz]

I'm thinking if they "must" keep paper tickets in some form (though I strongly disagree - I'd rather they be done with it) a phase-out plan could be.

Phase 1
-Remove Paper Concession Tickets - Sell concession go cards on the bus for $10 ($5 deposit + $5 credit).  This should not be a issue with the BCC drivers' union with the "too much cash"

-Remove all paper tickets for long distance commuters travelling 11 zones or more (The 529 and 649 travel through 8 zones and 10 zones).  Reconfigure the TL machines at QR stations to vend Adult go cards, and look at more retailers nearby the unattended (or partially attended) train stations to sell concession go cards.

-Sell only "2 hour" adult paper tickets for up to 10 zones on all buses (eg allow people to return and/or "transfer" within 2 hours from time of issue).  Keep the "penalty" for using paper tickets, perhaps even increase the 'penalty' gap.

Phase 2
-Eventually remove "2 hour" paper tickets; this can be done by
* Increase distribution points of go cards to supermarkets and convenience stores, allow top-ups.
* Sell $10 go cards on all buses (including resolving the "union" issue at BT)
* Install go card machines at the Ferry stations that don't have them.
* Limited top-ups on buses only - $5 and $10.  $20 could be done for a cost? (to discourage larger onboard bus top ups)

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't like onboard top ups on buses. Say what you want but they are just a royal pain in the ass. Especially if those people get on at the front of the queue preventing people from boarding and touching on. The 680 through Redcliffe-Strathpine is a serial repeater of this especially when multiple school students get on only to put $5 on the card. The only time I'd accept that would be if the user was slugged 50 cents-$1 per top up. When top ups at shops and what not become more available then get rid of onboard top ups or increase the price. Any boarding at busways should be prepaid boarding only meaning no top ups and no ticket purchases from onboard the bus.

It might seem extreme but these aren't routes operating in Brisbane where there is alot of patronage and a host of different routes to multiple locations.

[somebody]

I don't like onboard top ups on buses. Say what you want but they are just a royal pain in the ass. Especially if those people get on at the front of the queue preventing people from boarding and touching on. The 680 through Redcliffe-Strathpine is a serial repeater of this especially when multiple school students get on only to put $5 on the card. The only time I'd accept that would be if the user was slugged 50 cents-$1 per top up. When top ups at shops and what not become more available then get rid of onboard top ups or increase the price. Any boarding at busways should be prepaid boarding only meaning no top ups and no ticket purchases from onboard the bus.

It might seem extreme but these aren't routes operating in Brisbane where there is alot of patronage and a host of different routes to multiple locations.

I don't think this is extreme at all.

[#Metro]

This is why double door boarding is needed. While someone is buying a card, everyone else can slip through the back door. dump paper tickets.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Solve the issue for topping up on buses, have a top-up machine on the bus away from driver. Simple machine takes notes only, gives no change. Simply tap your card, insert the money, when note is accepted machine tells you to tap your card again, done (maybe receipt issued)! If you abandon paper system drivers should never be involved with the fare system again.

Now that's just an extra added expense to roll out across multiple fleets and operators that could be better put towards providing more top up points in shops, newsadgets, servos etc.

[ozbob]

Melbourne has gone cold turkey .... they are flogging myki on the buses down there, no worries.

BUT heck we are special in SEQ.  We are a mob of f%wits, what is seamless elsewhere is full of 'non-obstacles' in SEQ ...

[somebody]

Solve the issue for topping up on buses, have a top-up machine on the bus away from driver. Simple machine takes notes only, gives no change. Simply tap your card, insert the money, when note is accepted machine tells you to tap your card again, done (maybe receipt issued)! If you abandon paper system drivers should never be involved with the fare system again.

Now that's just an extra added expense to roll out across multiple fleets and operators that could be better put towards providing more top up points in shops, newsadgets, servos etc.

I agree.  Driver assisted top ups are fine so long as they are infrequent.

[ozbob]

[somebody]

Well if we want to be bold we would just do it without on board Go Card sales or top ups.

[#Metro]

With double door boarding, no time is lost entertaining go card sales.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Tell that to the drivers and passengers on the 680.... well.... a large portion of out of brisbane routes where there are still single door buses in use along with a quite large amount of onboard top ups due to the poor facilities available out of Brisbane.

[longboi]

With double door boarding, no time is lost entertaining go card sales.

There is when you have more than 2-3 (Monday mornings). And as HTG mentioned, obviously impossible with single door buses.

More facilities for buying and topping up off the vehicle itself is best, including the addition of methods such as BPay, Centrepay, post-pay accounts for authorised businesses/schools/universities etc.

The biggest obstacle to more physical retail outlets is the high cost of equipment, training and product of which Cubic has a stranglehold on.
Perhaps with some negotiation, there could be the ability to provide for "mini outlets" which provide top-ups only (no go card sales, expiration date changes or balance checks etc.) using vouchers through the EPay system. Automated, immediate processing of credit card top-ups over the phone and internet are also a must.

[Arnz]

Logan City, Gold Coast (TAG - Surfside) and Sunshine Coast (TAG - Sunbus) have a fair amount of older 1-door Bustech bodied buses in their respective bus fleets.

[longboi]

Logan City, Gold Coast (TAG - Surfside) and Sunshine Coast (TAG - Sunbus) have a fair amount of older 1-door Bustech bodied buses in their respective bus fleets.

As do Veolia, Thompson's, Kangaroo, Caboolture Bus Lines, Westside and Park Ridge. Almost all of BBL's fleet are single door (but that isn't as much of a problem).

[Gazza]

Automated, immediate processing of credit card top-ups over the phone and internet are also a must.

Immediate processing is not possible on smart card systems with roaming vehicles I'm afraid.

[longboi]

Automated, immediate processing of credit card top-ups over the phone and internet are also a must.

Immediate processing is not possible on smart card systems with roaming vehicles I'm afraid.

?

The vehicle has no relevance to what I'm talking about. If it did, the credit from topping up at an AVVM with cash or debit card wouldn't be immediately available for use.

At present when you use auto top-up or make a one-off credit card payment, there is the waiting period for authorisation. Many customers are confused by this and are caught out when using a credit card at an AVVM or over the internet immediately before travelling. 

[Gazza]

Even if you could eliminate that, there still is a delay between the top up propagating to all vehicles for the card to "pick it up"...Don't they need to go back to the depot?

[longboi]

Even if you could eliminate that, there still is a delay between the top up propagating to all vehicles for the card to "pick it up"...Don't they need to go back to the depot?

Sorry yes you're right, that data would need to be downloaded first. That would also then mean top-up via EPay would go through the same process and require the waiting period. 

In that case the cost of bringing new retailers on line would be the issue that has to be addressed. Ironically, expanding the retail network to make fare payment easier would cut into that revenue itself, instead of funding services and infrastructure (i.e. the meat and veg).

[verbatim9]

The 1 dollar cards makes sense. Thats how much they were in LA as I was there recently and you can recharge them on the bus with the bus driver min 5  bucks for a day pass. In San Diego they charged 2 bucks for their card. They both use the same system as in Brisbane

[somebody]

Even if you could eliminate that, there still is a delay between the top up propagating to all vehicles for the card to "pick it up"...Don't they need to go back to the depot?

Sorry yes you're right, that data would need to be downloaded first. That would also then mean top-up via EPay would go through the same process and require the waiting period. 

In that case the cost of bringing new retailers on line would be the issue that has to be addressed. Ironically, expanding the retail network to make fare payment easier would cut into that revenue itself, instead of funding services and infrastructure (i.e. the meat and veg).

AVVMs don't have the delay because the card has to be presented and the money can be applied to it right away.

[longboi]

Even if you could eliminate that, there still is a delay between the top up propagating to all vehicles for the card to "pick it up"...Don't they need to go back to the depot?

Sorry yes you're right, that data would need to be downloaded first. That would also then mean top-up via EPay would go through the same process and require the waiting period. 

In that case the cost of bringing new retailers on line would be the issue that has to be addressed. Ironically, expanding the retail network to make fare payment easier would cut into that revenue itself, instead of funding services and infrastructure (i.e. the meat and veg).

AVVMs don't have the delay because the card has to be presented and the money can be applied to it right away.

Yeah I had overlooked the need to actually "connect" the two (The act of topping up and the value stored on the card).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Logan City, Gold Coast (TAG - Surfside) and Sunshine Coast (TAG - Sunbus) have a fair amount of older 1-door Bustech bodied buses in their respective bus fleets.

As do Veolia, Thompson's, Kangaroo, Caboolture Bus Lines, Westside and Park Ridge. Almost all of BBL's fleet are single door (but that isn't as much of a problem).

HBL also have a few front door buses though they make a small majority of the entire fleet.

[Stillwater]

Clearly tourists are confused about the SEQ ticketing arrangements.  It would appear this family bought paper tickets for a return journey Noosa to Maroochydore. $52 poorer.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/52-bus-fare-shocks/1713714/

[Stillwater]

Phase-out of paper tickets should be accompanied by a re-education campaign about how to use go-cards.  None of this web-based generic information (although that should be provided) - what's needed is a round of community-based education sessions, possibly involving a dummy reader on a trolley, wheeled into a community hall for people to practise.  Groups such as the Pensioners Union, University of the Third Age, CWA, Rotary, Progress Associations, Bingo Clubs, RSL clubs would oblige.  RSL clubs would provide free venue if they knew the attendees would disperse throughout the club afterwards.  They may even throw in snacks.  Last year, two go-card info sessions were held in the Noosa hinterland and were packed out.  That would seem to indicate a desire on the part of the public to maximise their use of the go-card.  Learning of its use in a community environment and through practical demonstrations would appear to be effective.  People would feel less inconvenienced were paper tickets removed if they also had access to a convenient, local area go-card information and demonstration session.

[somebody]

Clearly tourists are confused about the SEQ ticketing arrangements.  It would appear this family bought paper tickets for a return journey Noosa to Maroochydore. $52 poorer.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/52-bus-fare-shocks/1713714/

Removing paper will stop articles like this one from appearing.  I'm surprised there isn't a political push to do something, actually.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

20th January 2013

Removal of paper tickets TransLink SEQ - it's time

Greetings,

It is time to remove paper single tickets in SEQ.  Obscenely priced, the availability of these tickets continues to punish people, generally those least able to afford it.  The efficiency of the public transport would be much improved if all paper is removed.  Melbourne removed their equivalent of paper ticketing on the 29th of December 2012.  They now only have the myki smart card on their extensive public transport network.

The Herald Sun, in an editorial yesterday,  said " ... Myki appears to have got off to a good start and is coping OK on its own, but of course the real test will come when school holidays are over and the system returns to full capacity ... "  http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/myki-system-loses-its-mates/story-e6frfhqo-1226556990512

TransLink had intended to remove all paper tickets by December 2010 (See --> http://backontrack.org/docs/tl/100104_fares.pdf  page 1).  For what ever reason, cold feet ensued, further handicapping our struggling public transport network.

Preloaded go cards should be available on all buses (except prepaid) and it is really the only thing that needs to be directly done to support the paper ticket withdrawal.  Melbourne has available on buses preloaded myki  cards $10 for full fare (incl. $4 credit) & $5 for concession/seniors (incl. $2 credit).

Arguments trotted out by Brisbane Transport that their drivers would have to carry too much cash to support the sale of preloaded go cards is dribble.  The sales of preloaded go cards would be less frequent than paper tickets and the high paper cost fares means they are already carrying large amounts of money.  Bus drivers would generally welcome the withdrawal of paper tickets and have everyone using the go card.  So much more efficient for bus loading and the network generally.

Removing paper tickets would help end these sort of stories in the media as well.

Family's $52 return bus trip from Maroochydore to Noosa  http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/52-bus-fare-shocks/1713714/

These experiences harm public transport, TransLink, the Government and further reinforce the perception that public transport in SEQ is far too expensive.  It is anti-tourism as well.

Time for some courage and remove the remaining single paper tickets don't you think?


http://backontrack.org/images/bold.jpg

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Media release 24th June 2012 re-released 6th January 2013

SEQ: Time for paper to go?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said it is time to consider the removal of the remaining paper single tickets on public transport in south-east Queensland.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The cost of single paper ticket fares relative to the go card is excessive.  It is in the best interests of all public transport users to move to a go card, even if they are not doing 9 journeys or more a week.

"By moving to a go card they assist in improving considerably running times for buses. The data generated by the go card system also assists in more focussed public transport planning.

"Paper tickets are at least 30% dearer for the equivalent go card trip (1,2,3).  There is a time limit on paper single tickets.  For passengers travelling through 10 zones or less this time period is 2 hours from time of purchase,  travelling 11 zones or more 3 hours 30 minutes (4).  The fact there are time limits on the paper tickets is not well understood by many users and could lead to a fare evasion offence in ignorance."

"Off peak discounts, presently at 20%, are only available to go card users.

"Go card users can transfer up three times within one hour for each transfer, this can make travel even more affordable.

"There is little justification to continue a costly duplicate ticketing system.  To allow the withdrawal of paper single tickets, go cards say $10 and $20 value should be available onboard all buses, Brisbane Transport and all other operators. Go cards can already be purchased on the CityCats."

"Bus drivers can also contribute significantly by promoting go card on board the buses as an alternate to costly paper single tickets.  Give the bus drivers educational material to guide new users."

"As go card penetration approaches 100% the number of go card sales on buses will be a lot less than paper tickets.  The money saved by scrapping the paper ticket system together with improved bus running make this final ticketing move essential."

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5149.0

2. http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/go-card

3. http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/changes-to-fares-and-ticketing-in-2013

4. http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/other-tickets/paper-tickets

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Fare evasion rife, but not all caught

Fare evasion rife, but not all caught
26th Jan 2013 1:00 AM

THOUSANDS of fines for fare evasion on the Ipswich train line are among the total 50,000 fines issued across the entire south-east Queensland public transport network over the past three years.

More than 7.5% of the 50,000 fines were issued at stations between Ipswich and Darra, according to figures revealed by Transport and Mains Roads Minister Scott Emerson.

The worst performing Ipswich line stations were Ipswich, Goodna, Darra and Redbank.

Mr Emerson estimated fare evasion cost $25 million each year in lost revenue.

The Ipswich line figures were not as great as the 1915 fines issued at Roma St, but Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow put the difference down to the Brisbane focus of transit officers.

"The figures are distorted because the transit officers are based in Brisbane and have more of a focus there," Mr Dow said.

Mr Dow called for increased patrols on the "middle to outer regions of the network", to discourage fare evaders and reduce the so-called skew .

"I hopped off at Goodna station and I was the only one of a dozen people to touch off my Go Card and I doubt everyone else had paper tickets," he said.

"If there are more patrols I think people will start to realise they're not going to get away with it."

Mr Dow said the removal of paper tickets and the supervision of fare gates would also help.

"Paper tickets cause a weak point at fare gates because a gate needs to be kept open."

Fare Evasion Hotspots

    Ipswich: 642
    Goodna: 497
    Darra: 479
    Redbank: 457
    Wacol: 375
    Gailes: 238
    Riverview: 231
    Dinmore: 190
    Booval: 177
    Bundamba: 169

[ozbob]

The Melbourne ' myki only ' experiment seems to gathering momentum.  Regional buses in Victoria have now gone myki only.

Are there any more thoughts on removing paper tickets?

[somebody]

Are there any more thoughts on removing paper tickets?

Not really.  I still think the $1 charge for buying a go card replacing the deposit is a terrible idea.

Sell go cards on buses now!

[ozbob]

Yes, that was from 2011 the $1 idea ...

If they ramp up the deposit more, this might act as an impediment to paper removal though.

[somebody]

If they ramp up the deposit more, this might act as an impediment to paper removal though.

But that's too bad.  I still think $15 is about right, but that still allows a few rorts through.  e.g. Varsity Lakes to Airport.  I'm not convinced that $10 is enough, but it would certainly be better than $5.

[ozbob]

Yes, I think it might well go to $15 - $10 deposit $5 fare ...

[somebody]

Yes, I think it might well go to $15 - $10 deposit $5 fare ...

A number of problems with that.  Doesn't allow a no change system for sales on buses.  Deposit doesn't cover Airtrain, and deposit+fare doesn't cover combination trips such as Indooroopilly-Airport.  In fact the deposit+fare doesn't cover Airport-Central.

Those reasons are enough for me to reach a $15 deposit.  $20 gets the deposit + $5 credit.

[ozbob]

I hear ya, but I am not sure the boffins do ...