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Would you support removal of all paper tickets and make available go cards at $1 nominal cost?

Keep the present paper tickets.
3 (12.5%)
Remove and make available go cards at $1.
19 (79.2%)
Other - please indicate.
2 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: December 26, 2011, 04:02:14 AM

Author Topic: Phase out paper single tickets?  (Read 30423 times)

Offline ozbob

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Phase out paper single tickets?
« on: December 16, 2011, 03:45:20 AM »
The excessive cost of paper single tickets (the only other option to the go card for the majority) and the inconvenience to the majority of users when people buy paper tickets on buses particularly, suggests that the system in terms of improved flows and equity would benefit from removal of all paper tickets.  There are also time limits on the paper singles that many users would not fully comprehend, and the implications for possible warnings/fare evasion offences.

There are some issues in terms of availability of pre-loaded go cards and so forth, but put aside these concerns for now.

Do you support the removal of paper tickets on the basis that go cards are made available for a nominal $1 cost?  Preloaded go cards would be readily available.  Eg.  Adult $10, would cost $11.

Full 2012 fares, including paper here --> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/fares-2012



« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 09:51:26 AM by ozbob »
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Offline O_128

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 06:30:25 AM »
Please yes, The constant inconvenience of paper tickets drives me insane.
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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 07:25:15 AM »
Too much incentive for getting large negative balances and throwing away the cards with the $1 cards.  Arguably, this is true at $5.  I don't support dropping the deposit any further.

In 2012, you only have to make 3 1 zone off peak trips to have saved the $5.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 07:42:56 AM »
Quote
Too much incentive for getting large negative balances and throwing away the cards with the $1 cards.  Arguably, this is true at $5.  I don't support dropping the deposit any further.

As gates and so forth rolled out don't think this is a major issue.  If folks are going to do it they would do it now, but as the system becomes entrenched, particularly with the free travel after x journeys I don't think this will be a major concern at all.  The gains overall will be significant.   I am fairly confident that after January 2 there will be a progressive climb to around 90% plus anyway, which further means the cost of providing paper options is >> than any revenue, plus the delay factor.
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Offline p858snake

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 09:28:07 AM »
Not till all AVMs are upgraded to support selling cards.

What if someone turns up to a station late in the afternoon to catch a train and there isn't any attendant to sell a go card?

Offline Jonno

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 09:33:36 AM »
Not till all AVMs are upgraded to support selling cards.

What if someone turns up to a station late in the afternoon to catch a train and there isn't any attendant to sell a go card?

or

Support removing paper tickets but system will need to cater for someone turning up to a station late in the afternoon to catch a train and there isn't any attendant to sell a go card. Thus all AVMs need to support selling cards.


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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 09:42:51 AM »
Isn't only the older ticket machines which don't sell go cards anyway?

Offline p858snake

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 10:40:24 AM »
Isn't only the older ticket machines which don't sell go cards anyway?
Last I heard, none apart from the bus interchange ones (where Prepaid busses stop) have them, Although this may have changed.

Offline johnnigh

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 10:55:37 AM »
What about tourists? Sell 'Brisbane Cards' at entry ports, the airport and cruise liner terminals, at tourist info offices. Why can most European cities offer great deals while Brisbane finds it almost impossible to sell moderately well integrated bundles of tourist offers in a special time-limited set of Go Cards (eg 3 day, 1 week, 1 month, covering touristic activity across the Translink network area.

Offline Set in train

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 11:09:37 AM »
Too much incentive for getting large negative balances and throwing away the cards with the $1 cards.  Arguably, this is true at $5.

Sure is when you read the Airtrain thread about this. Bargain travel!

Offline ozbob

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2011, 11:10:51 AM »
What about tourists? Sell 'Brisbane Cards' at entry ports, the airport and cruise liner terminals, at tourist info offices. Why can most European cities offer great deals while Brisbane finds it almost impossible to sell moderately well integrated bundles of tourist offers in a special time-limited set of Go Cards (eg 3 day, 1 week, 1 month, covering touristic activity across the Translink network area.

As has been indicated previously TransLink and Government are working towards a tourist product.
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 11:11:47 AM »
Gates don't make much of a difference when it comes to a negative balance. They will still open to let you out, bin the card, get a new one for the trip home, travel back to the city the next day, bin the card and repeat.

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Offline ozbob

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 11:14:27 AM »
Gates don't make much of a difference when it comes to a negative balance. They will still open to let you out, bin the card, get a new one for the trip home, travel back to the city the next day, bin the card and repeat.

SiT...... Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh... rrrreeerrron the airport train  :-r :-r :-r :-r

Easily fixed though isn't it ....  I noted extra attention being paid to go card readers by staff at BNE of late.

We certainly don't condone this sort of behaviour and I hope that individuals get caught and fined, every time.
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Offline Mr X

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2011, 11:18:05 AM »
I imagine Adults travelling from Gympie North to Brisbane would love to do this sorta thing, though how exactly is it enforced? If people buy unregistered go cards, use for a day, chuck out, buy a new one at a ticket machine and repeat, nothing much they can do.
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Offline Arnz

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2011, 11:30:11 AM »
I imagine Adults travelling from Gympie North to Brisbane would love to do this sorta thing, though how exactly is it enforced? If people buy unregistered go cards, use for a day, chuck out, buy a new one at a ticket machine and repeat, nothing much they can do.

Most of the 110~ odd commuters on the Mon-Fri evening train from Brisbane - Gympie North would likely be workers doing the "right" things.  The question could probably be applied to those on the 9:33am daytime Brisbane-Gympie North train though.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2011, 11:37:59 AM »
I imagine Adults travelling from Gympie North to Brisbane would love to do this sorta thing, though how exactly is it enforced? If people buy unregistered go cards, use for a day, chuck out, buy a new one at a ticket machine and repeat, nothing much they can do.

Most of the 110~ odd commuters on the Mon-Fri evening train from Brisbane - Gympie North would likely be workers doing the "right" things.  The question could probably be applied to those on the 9:33am daytime Brisbane-Gympie North train though.

Big statement Arnz, where is the evidence?   Most times I have been on that service most pax board at either Roma St, or Central.  One would expect them to have a ticket.  When I travelled to Landsborough on this service a few weeks ago, all the pax I saw detrain at Landsborough touched off, and then most touched back on to the bus.

If people want to fare evade it matters little what the cost of the go card is.  In time the system will tighten up for them as well.

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Offline Arnz

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2011, 11:48:17 AM »
I imagine Adults travelling from Gympie North to Brisbane would love to do this sorta thing, though how exactly is it enforced? If people buy unregistered go cards, use for a day, chuck out, buy a new one at a ticket machine and repeat, nothing much they can do.

Most of the 110~ odd commuters on the Mon-Fri evening train from Brisbane - Gympie North would likely be workers doing the "right" things.  The question could probably be applied to those on the 9:33am daytime Brisbane-Gympie North train though.

Big statement Arnz, where is the evidence?   Most times I have been on that service most pax board at either Roma St, or Central.  One would expect them to have a ticket.  When I travelled to Landsborough on this service a few weeks ago, all the pax I saw detrain at Landsborough touched off, and then most touched back on to the bus.

If people want to fare evade it matters little what the cost of the go card is.  In time the system will tighten up for them as well.



Can only say from observations on the peak service I've travelled on a week ago (returning from a late afternoon function). As for the daytime service, it's purely a guess for those travelling beyond Landsborough with little to no evidence to back myself up.  I have seen a few people north of Caboolture being tagged by TO's for either first warnings or on-the-spot fines at least once a week though iirc.

You are right that the vast majority travelling to Landsborough and either connecting to the bus, getting picked up or driving off elsewhere do touch on/off regardless of service.
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Offline Derwan

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 03:14:56 PM »
I think the only way it could work (properly) is if there was still a deposit (e.g. $10) - so if you bought a preloaded card, it'd be $20 ($10 deposit + $10 balance).

AVVM's would have to both sell new cards and provide refunds for cards that are no longer required.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 03:50:47 PM »
^Errm, thats actually making it worse.
It’s currently $5 for the deposit, and $5 for start up credit.
Why double it to $10 deposit and $10 credit ?

The whole point I’m trying to make is that $5 deposit is still obviously perceived by 20% of users to be too much of a cost to ‘buy in’ to the system.

So doing exactly the same/worse than the same, is not going to improve the situation is it?
As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is “trying the same thing  over and over, and expecting a different result”.

I don’t accept that people would toss cards with negative balances, or else everyone from the coasts, and every airtrain passenger would do this on a large scale already for every time they pushed it to a negative balance of more than $5.
Infrequent users aren’t going to think to do this. They aren’t able to see that go card is much cheaper as it is! They barley even know the fare system!

Many of the more frequent users would need to go through the inconvenience of having to re register if they took to tossing them, and there is also having to keep buying cards every time. Sucks if the train is about to leave and they decided to toss their card on their last trip :P
It also seems kind of difficult strategy to get the negative balance right because of how reloads are in $5/10 increments, but fares are all over the shop. Like say you have $10 left on the card and your fare is slightly over $10...you’ll get a negative balance, but still not enough to make it worth tossing it out. It would actually take a bit of luck and attention.

Every time you toss the card you’d lose $1 anyway, making it even more disadvantageous.

Bob mentioned this  to me once too, but you’d get a syndrome of tourists not bothering to reclaim small amounts of leftover credit, which adds up to  a little bit of extra money collected by the system.

Point is, yeah some people might be able to rort, but most wont. If we did go down this track, the benefits of a 100% paperless system (outlined by me above) would outweigh the ‘costs’. It’s hardly going to turn into a mess like scratch tickets in Melbourne, is it?

The fact a train default fare isn’t set to a trip to Varsity/Nambour yet says TL care ‘a bit’ about rorting, but obviously not about every last straggler.

Offline Jonas Jade

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 04:26:06 PM »
For locals what they could do (should have done) is in conjunction with the fare rise, offer a free go card period for a few weeks or a month so that people who are upset by the extra charge have the opportunity to take up the go card at no cost.

Offline Derwan

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 09:16:13 PM »
^Errm, thats actually making it worse.
It’s currently $5 for the deposit, and $5 for start up credit.
Why double it to $10 deposit and $10 credit ?

Ah okay.  Leave it how it is then.

Quote
The whole point I’m trying to make is that $5 deposit is still obviously perceived by 20% of users to be too much of a cost to ‘buy in’ to the system.

Where does that statistic come from?  Was it from a survey?

Quote
So doing exactly the same/worse than the same, is not going to improve the situation is it?
As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is “trying the same thing  over and over, and expecting a different result”.

I'm suggesting an easy purchase / easy refund system... where infrequent users (if they wish) could buy the card, do their trip(s), then get a refund of the deposit when they're done.

After all, we're discussing how we might be able to phase out single tickets, not how we can change perceptions of frequent users who should already be using Go Cards anyway.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 09:31:00 PM »
Well to be fair, if all machines could suck tickets back in, Singapore style, I'd be all for that.


Quote
Where does that statistic come from?  Was it from a survey?
Because only 80% of trips are on Go Card.


Offline Derwan

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 09:45:09 PM »
Well to be fair, if all machines could suck tickets back in, Singapore style, I'd be all for that.

It wouldn't even need to suck the card back in.  It'd just need to zero the balance (i.e. make it unusable) and provide the refund.  (Unless of course the cards are to be reused.)
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Offline dwb

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 09:57:41 AM »
I think the only way it could work (properly) is if there was still a deposit (e.g. $10) - so if you bought a preloaded card, it'd be $20 ($10 deposit + $10 balance).

AVVM's would have to both sell new cards and provide refunds for cards that are no longer required.

+1.

I too think the deposit should be increased to $10, and I think cards should continue to be free as they are now. (Card issue fee is still waived with only deposit and balance required).

I don't see why $20 prepaid cards cannot be made available on all buses. Further all train station AVMs should be upgraded to issue cards.... still some stations this would be a low priority, esp if there is a convenience store next door.

I don't see why we can't go to a mixed system... for example fully prepaid during peak (with prepaid go cards sold to customers who need them) and keep the paper singles available in offpeak for now... afterall it is presumably mostly offpeak customers who wouldn't already have go cards.

Perhaps Translink could be smart about this and target certain high paper use bus routes... they should know which routes they sell the most paper on and they could advertise, have roaming conductors promoting users to switch to go card.

Also, it bothers me, why does BT still have those "please have correct change ready" stickers and not more heavily push go card?!?!

And why o why doesn't TL negotiate with the unions to allow top ups up to $20 onboard BT buses? I see people who don't want autotopup board and deboard after getting a red light quite frequently.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2011, 10:17:55 AM »
What I would like to know is why can't you top up at Woolworths, Coles and IGA?

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Offline dwb

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 11:15:51 AM »
What I would like to know is why can't you top up at Woolworths, Coles and IGA?



+ petrol stations.
plus or minus one (subject to caveat below).

That would be A LOT of card readers/writers to get out into the business community (and would presumably cost Translink substantially), and unlike the mobile phone prepaid recharge, it seems to need to actually be downloaded direct to the card, rather than the database first... as buses are not always in contact with the latest balance.

Ie if you went into Caltex and put $20 onto your card that was 10c in debit, and they didn't have a card reader/writer, and instead just a way to credit your account, and then went and tried to catch a bus it wouldn't work, bc the card would still be in debit bc the bus wouldn't check the central database, it would check the card.

Plus, how would Translink incentivise all those places to go through the hassle of offering a no-commission product to customers?

I would much prefer the money being spent on a quicker, prettier, easier to use web account and backoffice system, where multiple cards could be linked on the same account.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 03:39:27 PM »
Dwb, why on earth does the deposit need to be raised to $10. You've basically just made a suggestion without any indication of what that achieves/improves.

Offline Set in train

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2011, 01:51:08 AM »
What I would like to know is why can't you top up at Woolworths, Coles and IGA?



And why can you top up on every bus other than a BT one? Why are they more busy than others that they can't?

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2011, 03:08:41 AM »
I guess topping up delays the bus too long.... Which is why I like it  ;D
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2011, 05:48:05 AM »
And why can you top up on every bus other than a BT one? Why are they more busy than others that they can't?

It's just union crap about drivers carrying too much money, which is something they clearly don't care about for any other operator.  Same reason why BT never sold weeklies. 

Just one more reason to privatise BT if you ask me.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2011, 05:51:55 AM »
And why can you top up on every bus other than a BT one? Why are they more busy than others that they can't?

It's just union crap about drivers carrying too much money, which is something they clearly don't care about for any other operator.  Same reason why BT never sold weeklies. 

Just one more reason to privatise BT if you ask me.

Yes, it is not very encouraging for further go card uptake and public transport support. BCC whines on, but they are one of the least cooperative players around. 

Time the public transport function of the council was removed.
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Offline dwb

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2011, 10:55:54 AM »
Dwb, why on earth does the deposit need to be raised to $10. You've basically just made a suggestion without any indication of what that achieves/improves.

To raise the default fare.... sorry thought this was implied. Default fare shouldn't be lower than many people's prospective journeys!

Offline dwb

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2011, 10:59:17 AM »
And why can you top up on every bus other than a BT one? Why are they more busy than others that they can't?

It's just union crap about drivers carrying too much money, which is something they clearly don't care about for any other operator.  Same reason why BT never sold weeklies. 

Just one more reason to privatise BT if you ask me.

Even if you privatised BT there would presumably be carry over of the EBA/union power into the new corporate body and new workers agreements.

Perhaps RBOT should be drafting some press about Rail Tram and Bus union... or whichever relevant union it is, to try and get them to change their position. That would be more useful than complaining to Translink or BCC...

And given other drivers can do it, on other operators, and I assume there isn't a statistical difference in robbings or assault, then perhaps union members could have their fears put into perspective to enable a policy change...

Offline #Metro

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2011, 11:04:37 AM »
Quote
Even if you privatised BT there would presumably be carry over of the EBA/union power into the new corporate body and new workers agreements.

Perhaps RBOT should be drafting some press about Rail Tram and Bus union... or whichever relevant union it is, to try and get them to change their position. That would be more useful than complaining to Translink or BCC...

And given other drivers can do it, on other operators, and I assume there isn't a statistical difference in robbings or assault, then perhaps union members could have their fears put into perspective to enable a policy change...

I actually agree with the Union, until shown statistically otherwise. Drivers shouldn't be carrying huge amounts of cash because it could well make them a target.
I would only support on-board pre-loaded go cards $20 Actually, wouldn't that just slow the entire bus down again, instead of selling paper they are selling
plastic? What's the point? Sell them elsewhere - woolies and coles!
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2011, 11:39:04 AM »
Because it's about the future.
Yes it's replacing selling paper with plastic.
But over time plastic would drop off but paper wont as much.
Sell a go card, that passenger is now transitioned, and they are set and won't be a hinderance again.
Eventually, the only people buying plastic would be those adopting SEQ PT for the first time.

Saying go to Woolies is no good, if you need to ride a bus to get there.

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2011, 11:46:24 AM »
Even if you privatised BT there would presumably be carry over of the EBA/union power into the new corporate body and new workers agreements.
Maybe, maybe not.  You don't see the union having the same sway on the private operators.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2011, 11:55:41 AM »
Sunbus lol.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2011, 12:34:47 PM »
Failbus  :D
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Offline Arnz

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »
*cough* TAG (and it's various Sunbus ops all over Queensland).

Fortunately for them the unions is only a minor player at it's Gold Coast (Surfside) operations
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Offline Arnz

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Re: Phase out paper single tickets?
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2011, 01:34:10 PM »
Sunbus lol.

Veolia too.  :hg
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