Proposal: 12 minute cycles for Merivale bridge routes in peak hour

[somebody]

Let's assume there is a duplication from Thorneside to Wellington Point, otherwise this idea is probably talking through one's hat.

5tph Varsity Lakes, express Beenleigh to Yeerongpilly stopping at Coopers Plains and Loganlea
5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly
5tph All to Manly
5tph Cleveland express Manly to Park Rd stopping at Morningside

I'm assuming counter peak on the Cleveland line would be sacrificed to the degree necessary to make it work.

[BrizCommuter]

Let's assume there is a duplication from Thorneside to Wellington Point, otherwise this idea is probably talking through one's hat.

5tph Varsity Lakes, express Beenleigh to Yeerongpilly stopping at Coopers Plains and Loganlea
5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly
5tph All to Manly
5tph Cleveland express Manly to Park Rd stopping at Morningside

I'm assuming counter peak on the Cleveland line would be sacrificed to the degree necessary to make it work.

5tph serving Beenleigh to Yeerongpilly would likely result in severe overcrowding.
Thorneside to Wellington Point is not likely to happen anytime soon.
Reversing 5tph at Manly on a running track would be rather interesting.
Gold Coasts could only run up to 6 mins faster than Beenleighs between Beenleigh and Kuraby.

[ClintonL94]

5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly

Why run a service express so close to the CBD?

[BrizCommuter]

5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly

Why run a service express so close to the CBD?

To fill up GC trains, and make more efficient use of track capacity across the Merivale Bridge they serve inner Beennleigh Line stations. Thus outer Beenleigh Line trains can express that section. BrizCommuter thinks they should all serve the inner section for a metro like frequency.

[somebody]

5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly

Why run a service express so close to the CBD?

(a) They already have 5tph - it's enough
(b) load balancing - you get more bang/buck from slowing the Gold Coast trains that way

5tph serving Beenleigh to Yeerongpilly would likely result in severe overcrowding.

Would it?  I think most of the pax @ BNH & Loganlea would be using the GC train.  @Coopers Plains, probably a 50/50 split.

Based on the 2011 figures that leaves only 4271 pax in the AM peak.  5tph is plenty for that figure.  If you non stop Coopers Plains and Loganlea with the Gold Coast trains you still only get 5100 - a bit more than the current loadings for the GC trains, so long as my assumption about most people waiting for the express here holds.

Thorneside to Wellington Point is not likely to happen anytime soon.
Reversing 5tph at Manly on a running track would be rather interesting.

Agree with both, but there are options @MNY such as running to Lota with some trips as well, or adding a third platform.

Gold Coasts could only run up to 6 mins faster than Beenleighs between Beenleigh and Kuraby.

And 7 stations bypassed - about on par with the time saving from the better expresses in SEQ.

EDIT: updated figures to assume all Yeerongpilly pax use the Beenleigh trains, which would be express.

[ClintonL94]

5tph Beenleigh, express Park Rd to Yeerongpilly

Why run a service express so close to the CBD?

To fill up GC trains, and make more efficient use of track capacity across the Merivale Bridge they serve inner Beennleigh Line stations. Thus outer Beenleigh Line trains can express that section. BrizCommuter thinks they should all serve the inner section for a metro like frequency.

I disagree with making a train express so close to Brisbane CBD. I agree to a point to make the trains from the Gold Coast line all stops Yeerongpilly - Bowen Hills.

Passengers who are already used to staying on the same train can continue their journey to stations between Yeerongpilly - Park Road instead of changing trains. It could be frustrating and possibly create longer journey times - they could have to wait up to 12 minutes for the next train.

Is this proposal only during peak hour? To run trains from Beenleigh - city as express Yeerongpilly - Park Road?

[somebody]

Yes, only peak hour.

[somebody]

I disagree with making a train express so close to Brisbane CBD.

Not sure how you figure that one.  Do you mean an equivalent distance to Auchenflower or Wooloowin?

[ClintonL94]

Park Road - Yeerongpilly is a longer distance than Roma Street - Auckenflower and Bowen Hills - Wooloowin.

Again, I just don't see the point in making an all stops train express so close to the CBD. If it was express in that section it would only save 2 minutes.

IMO, all trains within 5KM of a CBD station should be all stops.

[#Metro]

Park Road - Yeerongpilly is a longer distance than Roma Street - Auckenflower and Bowen Hills - Wooloowin.

Again, I just don't see the point in making an all stops train express so close to the CBD. If it was express in that section it would only save 2 minutes.

IMO, all trains within 5KM of a CBD station should be all stops.

Clinton, I wonder if we aim for a speed target of say 50 km/hour or better over the average course of the journey.
It would be interesting to see what the current speeds on all lines are.

50 km/hour is about the same speed as a car (or a bus) drives down a suburban street. I think it is OK to say for long distance travel (pretty much all rail except Doomben)
this should be a guideline target.

[Mr X]

Gold Coast, Ipswich and Nambour/Caboolture lines need to be FAST- these are competing against upgraded motorways (M1/M7) with speed limits of 90-110km/h. A train needs to be competitive with this to be a viable alternative in the off peak.
During peak, speed is not as critical as the roads are usually congested and thus don't go at the speed limit (hence the busway has a major advantage in peak as it enables large volumes of buses to skip this traffic AND potential car users can see a bus get there faster than their car can!).

[#Metro]

Gold Coast, Ipswich and Nambour/Caboolture lines need to be FAST- these are competing against upgraded motorways (M1/M7) with speed limits of 90-110km/h. A train needs to be competitive with this to be a viable alternative in the off peak.
During peak, speed is not as critical as the roads are usually congested and thus don't go at the speed limit (hence the busway has a major advantage in peak as it enables large volumes of buses to skip this traffic AND potential car users can see a bus get there faster than their car can!).

I totally agree. There are two ways to cut into journey times:

- Increase frequency. A 30 minute service going to a 15 minute service cuts off up to 15 minutes on a journey and reduces trip variation by half. That's a major improvement right there.
- Increase speed. Close a few stations and introduce Perth style zone operations to skip stations.

[somebody]

Gold Coast, Ipswich and Nambour/Caboolture lines need to be FAST- these are competing against upgraded motorways (M1/M7) with speed limits of 90-110km/h. A train needs to be competitive with this to be a viable alternative in the off peak.
During peak, speed is not as critical as the roads are usually congested and thus don't go at the speed limit (hence the busway has a major advantage in peak as it enables large volumes of buses to skip this traffic AND potential car users can see a bus get there faster than their car can!).

Well said.

IMO, all trains within 5KM of a CBD station should be all stops.

I don't think Gold Coast line users would be very impressed with this idea.  Similarly peak Ipswich line users from beyond Darra actually.

[Mr X]

- Increase speed. Close a few stations and introduce Perth style zone operations to skip stations.

Train stop spacing on the Gold Coast makes the trips faster than by car, also helped by the faster train running speeds. Pac Mwy these days is usually unreliable between Nerang and Robina due to road works, I've spent a good 50mins going just a few kms up the road at a snails pace before.

[Golliwog]

- Increase speed. Close a few stations and introduce Perth style zone operations to skip stations.

Train stop spacing on the Gold Coast makes the trips faster than by car, also helped by the faster train running speeds. Pac Mwy these days is usually unreliable between Nerang and Robina due to road works, I've spent a good 50mins going just a few kms up the road at a snails pace before.

Off topic, but thats actually one of the known issues with the Pac Mwy on the GC. In a number of locations, there are no local main roads between communities a few km apart, so the Mwy gets clogged by locals only heading down the road to the shops.

[ClintonL94]

IMO, all trains within 5KM of a CBD station should be all stops.

I don't think Gold Coast line users would be very impressed with this idea.  Similarly peak Ipswich line users from beyond Darra actually.

I'll rephrase when I said "all trains within 5KM of a CBD station" to all suburban trains within 5KM of a CBD station should be all stops.

[somebody]

Ipswich isn't suburban?

[Mr X]

What IS suburban? Beenleigh/Ferny Grove/Shorncliffe/Cleveland/Doomben/Richlands?

[Arnz]

I'd rather 12 tph between Park Road and Yeerongpilly served by Beenleigh and Gold Coast trains during the peaks to form a metro-like frequency like Bowen Hills-Northgate.  Leave the DG to the freights and XPT during this period.

[ClintonL94]

All lines except Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are suburban lines.

[somebody]

All lines except Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are suburban lines.

So now peak Ipswich trains are stopping at Auchenflower and Toowong because of some arbitrary rule?  Not a fan.

[Mr X]

I wouldn't really class Ipswich or Caboolture as "suburban". Sure, they are urban areas, but not urban areas of Brisbane.

You also need to consider that they are competing against a motorway. Speed is the killer! Shorncliffe, Cleveland and Ferny Grove can be all stops, they only have to race against arterial roads with lower vehicle speeds.

[O_128]

I wouldn't really class Ipswich or Caboolture as "suburban". Sure, they are urban areas, but not urban areas of Brisbane.

Agreed but until we have express link they are. This ties in with my idea for a reduced number of zones, BCC area zone 1, Logan, Ipswich, Moreton zone 2 and Gold coast and sunshine coast zone3, But thats a completely different topic.

[Gazza]

^3 zones would suck. Imagine the price jump if you were going from Logan to uni at Mt Gravatt, a short trip over the boundary 

Agreed but until we have express link they are.

IMO, every move we make should be building towards what is contained in the 2031 plan. Not doing one thing with stopping patterns, then undoing it in the future.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd much perfer more zones for cheaper fares on short trips than split it into 3 main fare zones.

[somebody]

I'd much perfer more zones for cheaper fares on short trips than split it into 3 main fare zones.

Ditto.

[Cam]

I agree with Gazza, HTG & Simon on the number of zones.

[Set in train]

I would prefer no lengthening of trip duration on the Gold Coast line, no ideas of all stops within 5km or anything of the sort.

Gold Coast line already has 4 stations to trudge through off peak before reaching central when inner city. It's always my opinion that Gold Coast trains should stop only at one of the three stations south of the river.

[Arnz]

I would prefer no lengthening of trip duration on the Gold Coast line, no ideas of all stops within 5km or anything of the sort.

Gold Coast line already has 4 stations to trudge through off peak before reaching central when inner city. It's always my opinion that Gold Coast trains should stop only at one of the three stations south of the river.

Loganlea, Coopers Plains, Park Road, South Bank and South Brisbane.  That's 5 in off-peak.  

Peak hour south of the River in Stage 2 may require GC trains to call in at more stops, especially if they want to squeeze in extra GC services to reduce the number of the fully seated trains south of Beenleigh during peak.  Running express for longer legs during peak will eat up capacity for other commuters.  There's no room to squeeze in extra GC services with the current express patterns without making them stop at more inner suburban stops.

[somebody]

I would prefer no lengthening of trip duration on the Gold Coast line, no ideas of all stops within 5km or anything of the sort.

Gold Coast line already has 4 stations to trudge through off peak before reaching central when inner city. It's always my opinion that Gold Coast trains should stop only at one of the three stations south of the river.

It's better than South Brisbane termination, old boy.  Given that Gold Coast is the least busy of the lines, it should be the first in line for this proposal.  Unless pork barrelling will apply.

If they want a faster trip, build CRR.

[somebody]

Poll here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7283.0

[SurfRail]

I'd much perfer more zones for cheaper fares on short trips than split it into 3 main fare zones.

There should be a fixed zone for inner city, ie something like a circle with boundry of Park Rd, Towong, BH. if travelling within this is minimum charge, after that it should be by the km with reducing rate the longer you travel and multiple modal for a single trip. Zones were needed before computers.

regards
Shane

Distance based commuting has its own inequities.  It produces silly outcomes like passengers ending up paying a different fare between Nerang and Surfers between the 740 and 745 just because the 745 happens to be the first bus to arrive (or after hours is the only bus available).

Nothing wrong with the current zonal system.  The problem arises from the flagfall attributed to short trips and the limited off-peak discount.

[somebody]

Well, the zone system does have limitations for trips on the GCL for example, and through town trips which get an effective discount.  I think these limitations aren't that important though.  I'd echo SurfRail's comments as being the main limitations.

[Gazza]

If you were gonna do distance based fares, then the distance charged for could be point to point over the whole final 'journey', calculated 'as the crow flies', via gps co-ordinates of stops.

It would not be like a taxi, where the distance in that case actually depends on the path traced by the vehicle.

[SurfRail]

If you were gonna do distance based fares, then the distance charged for could be point to point over the whole final 'journey', calculated 'as the crow flies', via gps co-ordinates of stops.

It would not be like a taxi, where the distance in that case actually depends on the path traced by the vehicle.

That's what fare zones do already, much more simply and predictably.

[#Metro]

I'm pretty happy with the fare zone system as it is. Apart from that little Ekka anomaly of course!

[Gazza]

But now in Qld, if I understand correctly, its zonal but if you buy a ticket to mid way in zone and you go one station longer, still in zone you are F'ed if you get caught. Even though price is same. Or has this now changed?

I have no knowledge of the 'old' system.

But now it works exactly like Melbourne and Perth. The ticket covers access to any stop within the zone. Its not like Sydney where you nominate a specific station.

Eg if you had a zone 1-3 ticket, coming from the CBD you could go as far as Darra, or as near as Sherwood.
After doing your train trip to say Sherwood, you could jump on the Great Circle Line and go to Salisbury, and you'd still be right. You could even then jump on another train and go to Coopers Plains, and you'd still be right.
Point is, its all within zone 3.

See http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/maps/100104_inner-brisbane-zones.jpg
and http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/maps/110829-busway-and-train-network.jpg

That's what fare zones do already, much more simply and predictably.

Kinda, except when going cross town. Then circular zones become a bit 'wierd'....Nothing critical or anything though.

[SurfRail]

Every system has its draw backs, but point to point as crow flys is what I meant. Much better than if you go to next station its same price but go back one station and its significantly cheaper. Also current zone system as I understand it is a mix of both, bad parts of each.

So what about stations that are only a few hundred metres apart like the Shorncliffe line outbound from Boondall?  Where do you draw the line?

The advantage of zones is that the line has already been drawn.  I can know exactly in advance how much my fare will be and plan accordingly to ensure I have credit on my card.   23 zones seems perfectly reasonable for a region the size of SEQ, and where most trips only occur within 2 zones anyway.

When I grew up in Sydney if I bought a ticket from Gosford to say Hornsby, the ticket had say Normanhurst on main and Wharoonga on Nth Shore line and started from say Hawesberry River. ie one ticket for the entire zone no matter which station you asked for and you could get off where you like up to the limit of the zone. But now in Qld, if I understand correctly, its zonal but if you buy a ticket to mid way in zone and you go one station longer, still in zone you are F'ed if you get caught. Even though price is same. Or has this now changed?

I'm not sure how long ago you are going back, but that has never been the case under the TransLink ticketing system since July 2004. 

Sydney's ticketing system is not a good example of anything.  It is so convoluted with its absurd distance restrictions that you can get fined for travelling the "wrong" way to a destination on a single fare, and where the ticket machines need separate buttons for every stop!

[Gazza]

The advantage of zones is that the line has already been drawn.  I can know exactly in advance how much my fare will be and plan accordingly to ensure I have credit on my card

Can see what you mean, but at the same time you never know how much a phonecall costs until you make it.

Apps/The website could have a fare calculator.

This is all academic anyway. TT already hit the nail on the head 

[#Metro]

Sydney's ticketing system is not a good example of anything.  It is so convoluted with its absurd distance restrictions that you can get fined for travelling the "wrong" way to a destination on a single fare, and where the ticket machines need separate buttons for every stop!

Sydney is a fantastic example of HOW NOT TO OPERATE PUBLIC TRANSPORT
In fact, that should be the title of a book!

I could have a book... big colour photos. haha.

How absurd to have multiple buttons for tickets when there are ~ 300 stations on the network!