Article: Hope for north coast rail line to get back on track

[Jonno]

The New South Wales Government is to investigate the cost of returning rail services to the state's north coast and extending the line into Queensland.

The Casino to Murwillumbah line was closed by the Labor government in 2004.

The NSW Minister for the North Coast, Don Page, said the study will be broad in its investigation.

"It will certainly look at the cost but it will do an assessment of the potential possibilities for introducing light rail and other commuter services on the line, obviously patronage and likely revenue streams will be part of that," he said.

He also said the Government recognises the benefit of linking the line with south-east Queensland.

"I think it is important that we are doing an assessment of the potential to extend the Casino to Murwillumbah rail line into Coolangatta to connect with the Queensland rail system," Mr Page said.

The tender to evaluate the costs of restoring and maintaining the line will be advertised in January.

The study is expected to be finished by October next year.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-18/hope-for-north-coast-rail-line-to-get-back-on-track/3680080

[somebody]

Sounds like a waste of money to me.  Sorry.

[Jonno]

Sounds like a waste of money to me.  Sorry.

Remind me to get you to explain that to the family of the next person killed on the roads in Nth NSW because there was no alternative.!!!  What price do you put in a life?

[Stillwater]

At this stage, it is just a study, the cost coming from NSW taxpayers.  Think of it as getting your car looked over for faults and obtaining a quote for repairs.  You become more informed about whether to go ahead with the repairs, or trade in the old bomb for a new car.

No Queensland taxpayer dollars will be spent in the conduct of this study.  No animals will be harmed, the environment is not affected.

This topic has been discussed in these forums from time to time; the study will provide a body of fact to examine the matter, rather than relying on guesswork.  That's got to be worth the cost of the study.

Queenslanders will pay, indirectly, if the NSW government goes ahead with the project and claims IA funding from the federal government

[somebody]

Sounds like a waste of money to me.  Sorry.

Remind me to get you to explain that to the family of the next person killed on the roads in Nth NSW because there was no alternative.!!!  What price do you put in a life?

No freight would be carried on this line.  It's just a few heavily loss making passenger trains.  There is alternative for passengers, like flying.

At this stage, it is just a study, the cost coming from NSW taxpayers. 

I didn't say it was a waste of QLD taxpayers money.

I don't think this needs to be studied to know that its a waste.  Sorry again.

[Gazza]

Sounds like a waste of money to me.  Sorry.

Remind me to get you to explain that to the family of the next person killed on the roads in Nth NSW because there was no alternative.!!!  What price do you put in a life?

I'm all for better rail, but I think it makes the case for rail lose credibility when over the top arguments like saying we need it to save lives.

It's not as if all motorists are kamikaze pilots, especially considering the equivalent stretch of the Pacific is perhaps one of the best engineered stretches of road in the country.

[colinw]

I would be in favour of it re-opening from Casino to Lismore, or even Byron Bay (which used to generate a significant volume of passengers), but beyond Byron Bay to Murwillumbah was and is a dead loss.  Slow & very indirect.

As for an extension to QLD, that is just plain daft. The Murwillumbah Line was a rural developmental line that avoids the heavily populated beach towns where public transport is needed today.  The only places of note it serves are Lismore & Byron Bay, hence my suggestion that it re-open to Lismore (a relatively short re-opening) or potentially Byron Bay.

Any new rail line to the area will be a 3'6" gauge line roughly following the Chinderah Freeway alignment, potentially as far as Ballina.  If that happened to connect with a truncated Murwillumbah branch at Byron Bay then all the better.

But leave the last section of line into Murwillumbah closed, or better still turn it into a very scenic mixed use rail trail.

By the way, is there any truth in the story that one of the tunnels has suffed a cave in? (Can't remember where I heard that, probably a furphy).

[paulg]

I think it would be great to see services return to this line, but the costs are substantial. The last major report that was undertaken found that a number of the bridges need replacement and the yearly subsidy required would be in the order of $5 million a year for 16 services a day (see table on page 9 of the exec summary of the report linked below).
http://www.toot.org.au/dmdocuments/FeasStudyDr12.pdf
Only about half the NPV of required investment was recovered in external benefits (according to whatever assumptions were used in that particular report).

The TOOT group has a good summary of the reports done to date:
http://www.toot.org.au/content/blogsection/10/55/

Cheers, Paul

[#Metro]

Turn it into a busway!!! Send all the coaches down it!

[Arnz]

Turn it into a busway!!! Send all the maglev buses down it!

Fixed it for ya 

[#Metro]

They don't like the service because the frequency and operating hours are rubbish. Well, why not just put more buses on and make it strategic.
I know byron bay has buses but would I use them? Hell no. Where is the bus stop? Ticketing? visibility? Doesn't exist...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Turn it into a busway!!! Send all the maglev buses down it!

Fixed it for ya 

+1 haha

[SurfRail]

They don't like the service because the frequency and operating hours are rubbish. Well, why not just put more buses on and make it strategic.
I know byron bay has buses but would I use them? Hell no. Where is the bus stop? Ticketing? visibility? Doesn't exist...

The state of the average passenger to Byron Bay would discourage me from sharing a vehicle with them more than anything else. 

No more rail for rail's sake.  This line is an exercise in futility and pork-barrelling.  They should work with our government to get the Coolangatta terminus design right to allow future extension south for real and productive passenger rail, not some fairy-land once per day pensioner shuttle to Sydney which would no doubt arrive at 11pm like it used to do.

[ghostryder]

Simon
Spoken like a person living in a major city not from someone living or had lived in a rural area. I live in part of the Northern Area of NSW mentioned, and here is where i ask you what if i want to go to Lismore or Byron Bay or Newcastle or Port Macquarie from Ballina Byron Bay Casino Grafton or Coffs Harbour or vice verse how does flying become the easier option. Most of these places may have an airport but not all of them have a direct air service linking them and if they do expect to pay an arm and a leg and maybe a kidney for the run. See all these airports may have air services but they link direct to Sydney with some having limited services to Brisbane, So say from Coffs Harbour to Newcastle means either flying to Brisbane (Not cheap limited seats and services.) then fly from Brisbane to Newcastle or the other is fly to Sydney then fly back to Newcastle. Not a cheap option i know i looked its dearer than the bus and the train. Also Simon not every one likes to fly or can fly for various reasons. This study that closed the line may have contained some very dodgy figures, the line is in Nationals territory and closed by a Labor Government. This study may show the figures were right all along or they were wrong. Only time will tell.

scott

[Gazza]

If they can't fly, what about greyhound?

[colinw]

Thing is, there's still a service.  It runs on rubber tyres, and hooks into the rail at Casino.  Nobody has lost their link to Sydney, Brisbane, Newcastle or anywhere else.  The main line service still runs, but the slow & pointless trundle up a very indirect branch line is gone.

Campaigning for re-opening of the M'bah line, particularly the bit beyond Byron Bay, is like campaigning to re-open the Brisbane Valley line to Esk & Toogoolawah. A nice, scenic, slow branch line that the foamers can wet their pants over, but the actual paying passengers are just as well off on the road.

And, yes, I shed a tear or two in my beer over both the Brisbane Valley branch and the Murwillumbah Branch.  Two of my great railfanning regrets is that I never got to do the Murwillumbah line in daylight, or the section of the Brisbane Valley line beyond Toogoolawah. I made it to Toogoolawah, but the last tour the Yarraman ran the year before I moved to Brisbane.

[ozbob]

Second last train to Yarraman, I think it was about 1986 or thereabouts.

At Yarraman



On the branch line ..



Photographs R Dow circa 1986

[Otto]

Question.
Last train to Toogoolawah.. When was it, and was it steam or diesel hauled..?


When my Dad used to come up from Sydney, He would only catch the XPT to/from Murbah... Never could understand why he would never take the XPT to Brisbane...

[ghostryder]

Yes there are buses but, not many bus services link between neighbouring towns. Premier and Greyhound offer services to and from Brisbane, Premier run overnight services between Sydney and Brisbane and selected services to Lismore and Greyhound offer morning and afternoon departures between Sydney and Brisbane. I realize that parts of the line are probably going to need serious rebuilding to improve operations, maybe they coudl repair and operate what sections they can and have feeder buses meet the trains, running railcars would serve a decent purpose if they opted to. Problem is if you cant access a plane a car a bus there is a train the area could use the added option, shame its had to become a political football.

scott

[colinw]

Last train to Toogoolawah.. When was it, and was it steam or diesel hauled..?

December 17, 1988, a steam hauled ARHS excursion.  The section beyond Toogoolawah was booked out of use shortly thereafter, due to track damage. Official closure didn't occur until 1993 or thereabouts.

I moved to Brisbane in early 1989.  Missed the last tour by a matter of weeks, but did manage to get to Toogoolawah on the very last train to run on the branch.

[colinw]

Yes there are buses but, not many bus services link between neighbouring towns. Premier and Greyhound offer services to and from Brisbane, Premier run overnight services between Sydney and Brisbane and selected services to Lismore and Greyhound offer morning and afternoon departures between Sydney and Brisbane. I realize that parts of the line are probably going to need serious rebuilding to improve operations, maybe they coudl repair and operate what sections they can and have feeder buses meet the trains, running railcars would serve a decent purpose if they opted to. Problem is if you cant access a plane a car a bus there is a train the area could use the added option, shame its had to become a political football.

scott

I really cannot see a full re-opening to Murwillumbah happening. Beyond Byron bay the line is simply too slow, indirect and in the wrong place to serve the local population effectively.  As I stated earlier in this thread, I think a re-opening to Lismore has significant merit, and would not be opposed to it going right through to Byron.  IMHO Byron to M'bah is best turned into a mixed use recreational trail, the future of rail in the Tweed is 3'6" under 25KV wires.

Rest assured I do not say "NO" to rail for the Northern Rivers, just "NO" to resurrection of the Murwillumbah line as it was.

[Gazza]

I realize that parts of the line are probably going to need serious rebuilding to improve operations, maybe they coudl repair and operate what sections they can and have feeder buses meet the trains, running railcars would serve a decent purpose if they opted to. Problem is if you cant access a plane a car a bus there is a train the area could use the added option, shame its had to become a political football.

scott

You're making it sound as if the way the Buses are is the way they will always be. Eg some people cant access a bus aparently, so thats the way it will always be.
The cost of getting more coaches and offering more frequent departures and better coverage, would be cheaper than fixing up the line and running trains, for the same benefit.

The 'option' of a train isn't needed if coach services were ramped up to offer the same level of mobility.

[#Metro]

BUSWAY!!!

[colinw]

BUSWAY!!!

Mixed use recreational trail, plus enhanced local bus services in the Northern Rivers, with the ultimate goal of a southwards extension of the 3'6" into Northern NSW.

Put it another way. How many people does a fully loaded XPT carry?  A few hundred?  How many trains a day is the NSW Government going to run on the line?  One a day like before?

Are we seriously going to reopen over 100km of infrastructure intensive branchline (9 tunnels, many bridges) to carry a few hundred people a day?  Is anyone here actually surprised it closed once the freight traffic was gone?  The wonder is that the other once a day passenger only section in NSW - Tamworth to Armidale - manages to hang on.

To justify rail we would need to have passenger flows measured in thousands per day, enough to justify several trains a day or more.

That level of demand is simply NOT going to arise on the original Murwillumbah line, but could well occur on a southern extension of the QR Gold Coast line to the coastal centres like Kingscliffe, Potsville, etc.

The cost of re-opening the line & subsidizing it for a few years would be better off put into much improved local bus links in the Northern Rivers, and maybe extending the Casino XPT to Brisbane as well if it can be done without disrupting the afternoon peak.

[#Metro]

Buses can handle a steeper gradient nicely, can be guided and use existing roads/freeways where required- so the infrastructure can be non-continuous. There would need to be some kind of network planning and pulse sequence as it is a rural area.

[Stillwater]

It doesn't have a romantic ring: "All aboarrd for Pottsville!"  

It was the prospect of replacing and maintaining numerous bridges between Casino and Murwillumbah that doomed that line, plus track maintenance that became too expensive.

The YouTube video of the line:



The Infrastructure Australia submission:

http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/public_submissions/published/files/145_peterwestheimer_SUB.pdf

[colinw]

Last train to Toogoolawah.. When was it, and was it steam or diesel hauled..?

December 17, 1988, a steam hauled ARHS excursion.  The section beyond Toogoolawah was booked out of use shortly thereafter, due to track damage. Official closure didn't occur until 1993 or thereabouts.

I moved to Brisbane in early 1989.  Missed the last tour by a matter of weeks, but did manage to get to Toogoolawah on the very last train to run on the branch.

Otto,

I'm mixed up! What I have quoted above is the last train to YARRAMAN, in 1988. You asked for Toogoolawah.

The last train to Toogoolawah, which I was on, was some time in the 2nd half of 1991.  It was meant to be steam (C17), but was hauled by a 1720 class diesel due to a total fire ban.  I know it was 2nd half of 1991, because I lived in Ipswich from July '91 to January '92, and the last train to Toogoolawah was while I lived in Ipswich. I boarded it at Ebbw Vale.

[ghostryder]

Gazza
I know of several bus companies that focus attention on school runs first then think about the general public, Outside school time many offer reduced services. Over the years there were more bus services but events like that at Clybucca and Government crack downs insurance rises and the bad PR from these accidents took there toll. There is a need for better PT but its a case of not many or game to put up incase it fails.

Colin
I think giving up the corridor to other uses would be a waste, Keep it for transport for the future, besides IIRC it still needs an act of parliament to close the line, its currently services suspended.
I dont think the line in its full current form would be worth returning to service. But i think there is a percentage of it that would be useable but would still need some repair work. In regards to frequency that is controlled by the political masters in Sydney. If there was a political will more trains could and would be bought and a better service run. The lines death warrant was signed long ago, reducing the budget for its upkeep and how freight was to be handled on the line was the biggest cut to the line. Michael Costa did plenty of hatchet jobs on  many things under his authority as a minsiter.

scott

[colinw]

I think giving up the corridor to other uses would be a waste, Keep it for transport for the future, besides IIRC it still needs an act of parliament to close the line, its currently services suspended.
I dont think the line in its full current form would be worth returning to service. But i think there is a percentage of it that would be useable but would still need some repair work. In regards to frequency that is controlled by the political masters in Sydney. If there was a political will more trains could and would be bought and a better service run. The lines death warrant was signed long ago, reducing the budget for its upkeep and how freight was to be handled on the line was the biggest cut to the line. Michael Costa did plenty of hatchet jobs on  many things under his authority as a minsiter.

scott

Hi Scott,

I actually have some empathy for the Northern Rivers, both my parents being from there (Kyogle & Lismore respectively, grandparents in Ballina).  There's a family connection to the line as well, a great great uncle (or something like that) was one of the contractors who built a section of the line, around Sexton's Hill I believe.  My uncle has some old black & white construction photos of the line handed down through the generations - should scan them & post them.

Agree about keeping the corridor, hence the suggestion that it be "rail banked" as a recreational rail trail.  In any case, I hope to see a stub of the line resurrected at least as far as Lismore, it is mainly the M'bah end I think is a dead loss.

As for Costa, enough said.  Although QLD Deputy Premier Andrew Fraser somewhat reminds me of him, and has presided over similarly horrible outcomes.