Station staff - cutbacks?

[ozbob]

[SurfRail]

That's one thing I don't like about GoCard. Melbourne accepts whatever you throw into the machine in cash. Go Card wants neat increments of $10, $20, $30 and is too fussy. Melbourne allows you to dump whatever coins into the machine and have that credited. What can't it be the same here?

Actually I much prefer it our way.  It means fewer delays at ticketing counters and machines.  A friend of mine works at stations on the Upfield line and routinely has to deal with people who hand over huge amounts of change.

What's wrong with just being required to put $10 on?  Should be the minimum in my view.

[Golliwog]

staff at stations are alsohandy when you need to top up your go-card with coins. To open up the toilets for a quick in&out when they are locked (yes sometimes you will see locked toilets when there are staff present)

Certain outer suburban stations which have a consistent record of hooliganism need to be staffed/ monitored by security.

Some off the top of my head would be: ferny grove,wynnum central,mitchelton,sandgate,,manly,goodna,redbank,morayfield,caboolture,petrie,toombul,cleveland,ipswich,woodridge,loganlea,helensvale,Strathpine,zillmere,beenleigh.

Majority of which are near major shopping centres,bus stations or cbd precints.

Hey, just because when I went past FG station at around 8:30pm on Sunday night and there were 3 police vehicles in the Samford Rd side bus bay, doesn't mean we have a hooligan problem. Oh wait.....

RE: toilet access. It's all good, I've got a swipe tag for the bike locker area which also gets me into the 2 showers at FG which both also double as disabled access toilets.

[minbrisbane]

That's one thing I don't like about GoCard. Melbourne accepts whatever you throw into the machine in cash. Go Card wants neat increments of $10, $20, $30 and is too fussy. Melbourne allows you to dump whatever coins into the machine and have that credited. What can't it be the same here?

I like the idea.  I'd be happy to put my wallet's  loose change to good use on the gocard. 

Only thing is, you'd potentially have people with wheelbarrows of change causing longer queues at fare machines.

[nathandavid88]

RE: toilet access. It's all good, I've got a swipe tag for the bike locker area which also gets me into the 2 showers at FG which both also double as disabled access toilets.

Actually, this is possibly a good solution to the toilet issue – allowing passengers to sign up for access to the toilets in the same way that you can sign up for bike lockers. Newer/refurbished stations would ideally have swipe card (or Go Card) access, but for older stations like Holmview, access could be provided just as a physical key for the toilet door. For 90% of people, they would likely be travelling to stations that are manned (City Stations or large regional hubs) so they would just need access to their suburban station.

That's one thing I don't like about GoCard. Melbourne accepts whatever you throw into the machine in cash. Go Card wants neat increments of $10, $20, $30 and is too fussy. Melbourne allows you to dump whatever coins into the machine and have that credited. What can't it be the same here?

Actually I much prefer it our way.  It means fewer delays at ticketing counters and machines.  A friend of mine works at stations on the Upfield line and routinely has to deal with people who hand over huge amounts of change.

What's wrong with just being required to put $10 on?  Should be the minimum in my view.

I agree that notes are all that should be allowed. Coins lead to unnecessary hassles and slows everything down, especially at bus stations with only one machine (like mine!) If people have too much change, take it to the bank! That said, I would argue that $5 should be the minimum rather than $10. For someone using a concession card during off peak, their fare could be as little as $1.32, meaning that $5 could be all the money they need on their Go Card for the day.

[techblitz]

Not everyone has notes on them when they need to top-up
they may have adcidentailly used them at the shops etc. Luckily gocard customers can simply purchase a paper ticket if they run out of notes. just imagine this scenario if there weren't any paper tickets sold at unstaffed rail stations.

[Gazza]

Not everyone has notes on them when they need to top-up
they may have adcidentailly used them at the shops etc. Luckily gocard customers can simply purchase a paper ticket if they run out of notes. just imagine this scenario if there weren't any paper tickets sold at unstaffed rail stations.

Serious question,  but who doesn't own an eftpos card to pay that way?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Some might not want to use their cards that way. I've always preferred to use cash rather than debit and credit cards.

[SurfRail]

Not everyone has notes on them when they need to top-up
they may have adcidentailly used them at the shops etc. Luckily gocard customers can simply purchase a paper ticket if they run out of notes. just imagine this scenario if there weren't any paper tickets sold at unstaffed rail stations.

Just have to progressively modify the machines to dispense go cards.

I don't have an issue with people using coinage, just being able to pay in non-integers (eg $5.40 or $3.60 instead of just $5).  It's easier to work with whole numbers, and that will generally encourage notes and gold pieces rather than silver shrapnel.

I would prefer $10 be the minimum for adult go cards with $5 the minimum for concessions.

[Gazza]

Some might not want to use their cards that way. I've always preferred to use cash rather than debit and credit cards.

But seriously, why do we have to design ticketing systems based around peoples petty little likes and dislikes. Person X might accidentally spend their  note so we have to cater to them and their pocketfuls of coins, and person Y doesn't like using their bank card and person Z can't organise their money to ensure they have a spare $10 for a minimum too up level.

P A T H E T I C !

And people complain about the nanny state. Pretty clear why we need one!

[techblitz]

Some might not want to use their cards that way. I've always preferred to use cash rather than debit and credit cards.

+1 HTG and surfrail

vending machines arent rocket science. They can be adjusted to make sure someone doesn't put in 5.00 in 5 cent pieces etc. they can also spit back money if their coins slots have maxed out. with card skimming on the increase I know of a few people that don't trust eftpos machines.

If they ever do away with the paper tickets at rail stations and still refuse to accept coins as a top-up method on thier machines....would this not leave a loophole?...where fare avoiding passengers can hop on a train and if asked why they haven't paid for a ticket....they can simply say `I don't have an eftpos card sorry or notes...but I do have coins but your machine doesn't accept them?

[#Metro]

I don't understand what the big deal is. In Melbourne you just walk up to a machine, dump whatever you have got in your pockets into the slot and that gets credited. Why so fussy Brisbane?

[techblitz]

I don't understand what the big deal is. In Melbourne you just walk up to a machine, dump whatever you have got in your pockets into the slot and that gets credited. Why so fussy Brisbane?

perhaps the armaguard or (whoever empties them) costs are too expensive...who knows. The less shrapnel in the machines then the less visits needed Its the only thing I can put it down to.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Some might not want to use their cards that way. I've always preferred to use cash rather than debit and credit cards.

But seriously, why do we have to design ticketing systems based around peoples petty little likes and dislikes. Person X might accidentally spend their  note so we have to cater to them and their pocketfuls of coins, and person Y doesn't like using their bank card and person Z can't organise their money to ensure they have a spare $10 for a minimum too up level.

P A T H E T I C !

And people complain about the nanny state. Pretty clear why we need one!

Hahaha. Ideally I'd like to see coins, cash and credit/debit cards in use at all avms with no top up minimum. It's a public top up service so it should cater for the greater demand of people using public transport. If people hate waiting because someone is topping up with coins then they should use another top up service - which is where a greater rollout of topping up comes in handy ie shops, servos etc - or switch to automatic top ups. If and when they go prepaid and they still want to rollout onboard top ups on buses which I think is a stupid idea should be cash only minus a fee for onboard top ups ($5 top up. $4.80 put on card. $0.20 surcharge).

[#Metro]

perhaps the armaguard or (whoever empties them) costs are too expensive...who knows. The less shrapnel in the machines then the less visits needed Its the only thing I can put it down to.

Given that Armaguard still needs to visit the machine anyway to pick up the cash and coins from existing purchases and the van is more than big enough, I'm not sure this is a reason.

[Gazza]

perhaps the armaguard or (whoever empties them) costs are too expensive...who knows. The less shrapnel in the machines then the less visits needed Its the only thing I can put it down to.

Given that Armaguard still needs to visit the machine anyway to pick up the cash and coins from existing purchases and the van is more than big enough, I'm not sure this is a reason.

No, it's an actual problem: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/cash-clogged-myki-machines-have-commuters-fuming/story-e6frf7kx-1226630712251

The issue is how often you have to schedule cash pick ups, and the fact that the coin bins can become too full.

If people hate waiting because someone is topping up with coins then they should use another top up service - which is where a greater rollout of topping up comes in handy ie shops, servos etc - or switch to automatic top ups.

No, the burden should be on luddites to get their life in order and stop being sooks that their card might be skimmed or they can't organise their spending to keep a $10 note free (Brotip: put the $10 in the GoCard sleeve so it's there when you need it)

[HappyTrainGuy]

Then make a bigger machine for the higher populated areas/install more that one telephone sized AVM. Its bloody stupid that the cultural centre which is the major hub with nearly every route in Brisbane passing through only has 2 AVMs. Of course they are going to fill up quicker in that case.

[#Metro]

The issue is how often you have to schedule cash pick ups, and the fact that the coin bins can become too full.

I think it is time we got rid of all silver coins to be honest. Almost all machines now reject 5c coins and some 10c as well.

[techblitz]

But commuters said many people would not know they could challenge a fine in those circumstances.

"Our concern really is that not everyone who gets fined in circumstances where they shouldn't be necessarily knows that they can appeal it and that such an appeal is likely to be successful," Public Transport Users Association president Tony Morton said.

He said a lot of people still used cash and a commuter being unable to use coins and notes at a machine was "a failure of the system".

booyah! Already happening it seems with predicted issues of fare evasion. When it comes to vending machines...people will always prefer putting thier loose change in them...whether it be a coke machine,lolly or a ticket machine.

[#Metro]

booyah! Already happening it seems with predicted issues of fare evasion. When it comes to vending machines...people will always prefer putting thier loose change in them...whether it be a coke machine,lolly or a ticket machine.

Woolies doesn't make you pay in $5 and $10 increments. In fact I can't imagine any store that does business that way. Scaring customers away seems like a bad idea to me. I'd rather the problem be solved by removing all silver coins from circulation.

[Gazza]

booyah! Already happening it seems with predicted issues of fare evasion. When it comes to vending machines...people will always prefer putting thier loose change in them...whether it be a coke machine,lolly or a ticket machine.

Woolies doesn't make you pay in $5 and $10 increments. In fact I can't imagine any store that does business that way. Scaring customers away seems like a bad idea to me. I'd rather the problem be solved by removing all silver coins from circulation.

Yeah but woolies has staff there on hand all day to do cash drops and empty the self checkouts, plus they have those tubes where they can put change in and suck it up to the cash office. Not comparable.

[Golliwog]

My opinion is legal tender is legal tender. You can't not accept coins because you don't want them. By all means, have a reasonable limit as techblitz suggests, but not accepting it is going to far. Doesn't QR run safe boxes on some trains each day to collect money from their stations?

[HappyTrainGuy]

My opinion is legal tender is legal tender. You can't not accept coins because you don't want them. By all means, have a reasonable limit as techblitz suggests, but not accepting it is going to far. Doesn't QR run safe boxes on some trains each day to collect money from their stations?

Little from column a and a little from column b.

[SurfRail]

My opinion is legal tender is legal tender. You can't not accept coins because you don't want them. By all means, have a reasonable limit as techblitz suggests, but not accepting it is going to far. Doesn't QR run safe boxes on some trains each day to collect money from their stations?

Putting my lawyer's hat on, "legal tender" really doesn't have too many consequences as a legal concept in daily life.  The only 2 I can think of off hand are:

1. A payee can refuse to accept payment for something if you are tendering a huge collection of coins which exceeds the permissible limits in the Currency Act.  Under section 16(1)(b), the maximum you can pay in silver coinage is $5 tops before it ceases to be legal tender.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1965120/s16.html

2. If you are given legal tender in satisfaction of a debt and you refuse to accept it, you might lose certain privileges against the payer (eg an ability to sue them later for the same debt).

Neither of these 2 principles stops any person from saying that as a matter of contract they will only accept payment by a certain method.  For instance, the REIQ standard land contracts all require payment on settlement to be in the form of bank cheques.  Turning up with a suitcase full of money would be a breach of the contract, even though technically there is no limit on the number of notes you can tender for payment before it ceases to be legal tender (see section 36 of the Reserve Bank Act - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/rba1959130/s36.html).

TransLink saying that they will only accept notes would be no different, although in my view that is unnecessary - it is enough to say that go card is the only ticketing option and can only be topped up in fixed increments.

[ozbob]

Thanks for that clarification and comment SurfRail ..

[nathandavid88]

with card skimming on the increase I know of a few people that don't trust eftpos machines.

Going off topic slightly, did Translink go and upgrade all the Go Card Machines? I use a chipped Visa Debit card when recharging without cash and the machine I use originally required me to swipe my card (ie. push it in and pull it out) at the start of the transaction, but more recently it has started requiring me to insert and leave my card in while performing a transaction – like when using an EPTPOS machine with chip reader. While it's a good idea, it took me a week of thinking the EFTPOS part of the machine was broken to notice the change. 

[SurfRail]

^ Yes, they did this to upgrade payment security a few months back.

[longboi]

The coin issue: Gazza is correct. Chubb are usually flat out as it is emptying AVVMs under the current system.
All it takes is a few people to empty out their change jar and the coin box is full. Would you rather provide the ability for a few to dump all their unwanted change or the ability for many to pay with coins in standard increments?

Perhaps it's possible to use those coins as change (however I have a feeling the coins provided for change and the coins retained from payment are completely separate) but it's bad enough when the AVVM spits out the 'jackpot' when receiving change as it is. Imagine silver coins being added into that mix.

[Derwan]

I'm reading these posts, scratching my head.  I haven't been near an AVVM for several years and yet I catch public transport at least 4 days a week.

Here I am thinking that people are so behind the times because they still manually top up their cards at AVVMs - only to read that some people are even further behind the times and want to insert cash into a machine instead of a card!!

Are these the same people who want to go into a bank and fill in a withdrawal form to get their cash?  Perhaps they would prefer to receive an envelope with their weekly pay in cash instead of it being deposited into a bank account?

With regards to staff at stations, they are essentially glorified cleaners.  They don't have much else to do during the day.

[techblitz]

I'm reading these posts, scratching my head.  I haven't been near an AVVM for several years and yet I catch public transport at least 4 days a week.

Here I am thinking that people are so behind the times because they still manually top up their cards at AVVMs - only to read that some people are even further behind the times and want to insert cash into a machine instead of a card!!

Are these the same people who want to go into a bank and fill in a withdrawal form to get their cash?  Perhaps they would prefer to receive an envelope with their weekly pay in cash instead of it being deposited into a bank account?

With regards to staff at stations, they are essentially glorified cleaners.  They don't have much else to do during the day.

some people prefer to stay old fashioned derwan and gazza...get over yourselves plz..... whats wrong with people wanting to use bank tellers instead of atms? You gonna take a stab at people who prefer to go to regional centers by train/bus instead of flying? Im glad at being a glorified `sook` as gazza states it...and use cash & coins whenever I can....and travel by train to support regional rail instead of using the `latest` trend of flying cheaply to regional areas just because everyone else does it.

[SurfRail]

I'm reading these posts, scratching my head.  I haven't been near an AVVM for several years and yet I catch public transport at least 4 days a week.

Here I am thinking that people are so behind the times because they still manually top up their cards at AVVMs - only to read that some people are even further behind the times and want to insert cash into a machine instead of a card!!

Are these the same people who want to go into a bank and fill in a withdrawal form to get their cash?  Perhaps they would prefer to receive an envelope with their weekly pay in cash instead of it being deposited into a bank account?

With regards to staff at stations, they are essentially glorified cleaners.  They don't have much else to do during the day.

I only use AVVMs to top up my card.  I try to avoid direct debits of any kind because they can cause unscheduled and disruptive payments out of my account when it needs to be in credit (and I refuse to own a credit card).

The only fault I find with the AVVMs is that for some idiotic reason it is not possible to use EFTPOS to put more than $100 on at a time, when I generally need to put on at least $150 given my travels (which means either 2 EFTPOS transactions or remember to collect $150 in notes first).

[Derwan]

some people prefer to stay old fashioned derwan and gazza...get over yourselves plz..... whats wrong with people wanting to use bank tellers instead of atms? You gonna take a stab at people who prefer to go to regional centers by train/bus instead of flying? Im glad at being a glorified `sook` as gazza states it...and use cash & coins whenever I can....and travel by train to support regional rail instead of using the `latest` trend of flying cheaply to regional areas just because everyone else does it.

There's nothing wrong with it, but we shouldn't have to design (and pay for) systems to cater for the few who refuse to keep up with the times.  Yes - we need to cater for those who genuinely cannot use the technology - such as the disabled and elderly - but everyone else should be able to comprehend and use simple cashless transactions.

My mum is 75 and handles EFTPOS just fine - albeit a bit slower than the younger generation.

[Fares_Fair]

I'm reading these posts, scratching my head.  I haven't been near an AVVM for several years and yet I catch public transport at least 4 days a week.

Here I am thinking that people are so behind the times because they still manually top up their cards at AVVMs - only to read that some people are even further behind the times and want to insert cash into a machine instead of a card!!

Are these the same people who want to go into a bank and fill in a withdrawal form to get their cash?  Perhaps they would prefer to receive an envelope with their weekly pay in cash instead of it being deposited into a bank account?

With regards to staff at stations, they are essentially glorified cleaners.  They don't have much else to do during the day.

I only use AVVMs to top up my card.  I try to avoid direct debits of any kind because they can cause unscheduled and disruptive payments out of my account when it needs to be in credit (and I refuse to own a credit card).

The only fault I find with the AVVMs is that for some idiotic reason it is not possible to use EFTPOS to put more than $100 on at a time, when I generally need to put on at least $150 given my travels (which means either 2 EFTPOS transactions or remember to collect $150 in notes first).

I put on $200 every week and a half - and make very good use of the station master to ensure a swift transaction.

[Fares_Fair]

I'm kinda with Old Northern Road on this one. Some stations are little more than a bus stop with steel rails...Does anyone advocate that bus stops be fully staffed and with a ticket seller?

Perth manages to get by without all the bells and whilsles on many lines...Look ma, no ticket office!

Holmview is only staffed during morning peak hour. The same with many stations around the network.

Still a bit of a waste of money at stations like that. I doubt the wages of the staff would even cover the ticket sales revenue.

To be fair, bus stops have considerable passing traffic that make them more exposed to public view and thus potentially safer.
An exception to this of course is the tragedy of young Daniel Morcombe at Kiel Mountain Road, Woombye in December 2003.

[techblitz]

My view of staff at rail stations and their importance:

1. there to keep the station clean and presentable
2. collect/give any office mail/correspondence/info posters etc via passing trains
3. notify passengers waiting on platform of any delays/short notice platform changes
4. report any avvm,gocard terminal issues.
5. report any safety issues (crossing gate strikes etc) and general observation on loiterers
6. sell tickets through the windows

LAST but not least (& biggest importance imo) is travel/transfer advice for passengers and good old general customer service with a smiling face.

[#Metro]

My view is that labour is a large cost - tens of thousands of dollars per year. Staff should only be present were required, elsewhere there should not be staff.

1. there to keep the station clean and presentable

Can be done by mobile cleaning teams, at busy stations OK, but quieter stations it is not necessary.

2. collect/give any office mail/correspondence/info posters etc via passing trains

Can be done by roving teams

3. notify passengers waiting on platform of any delays/short notice platform changes

Can be done remotely

4. report any avvm,gocard terminal issues.

Can be done by passengers themselves

5. report any safety issues (crossing gate strikes etc) and general observation on loiterers

Can be done remotely (c.f. busway operations)

6. sell tickets through the windows

Move to a 100% electronic ticketing environment.

[Old Northern Road]

Interesting is it not?  Melbourne had staffed stations, similar to Queensland with the major important to last services etc.  They removed the staff.  Lost complete control of the situation.  Staff are now back during the day and now PSOs at night. PSOs are actually low level police and armed. Cost of the PSOs  setup is around $200 million plus the wages etc.  Staff are back on the stations.  In fact last time I was in Melbourne there were two staff at Murrumbeena, equivalent to say Sherwood ...

Staff will go.  There will be the subsequent issues and beat ups.  Eventually they will be forced to step up guards and dogs and what not. Present mob just see it as cost saving.

Stupid policy and polyticks  ...

The thing that is also rather amazing in Melbourne is that EVERY station is getting PSOs.  This is the end result of removing staff. 

Murrumbeena gets nearly 3000 boardings per day which would make it a lot busier than Sherwood. Probably about as busy as Darra or Oxley and they are both manned throughout the entire day. Murrumbeena is only meant to be manned during the morning peak. On the same line you have Hallam which is nearly as busy yet is completely unmanned. If Hallam was in QR land it would probably have 50 people working there.

[ozbob]

As Sherwood is to the Ipswich line, as Murrumbeena is to the Dandenong/Pakenham line .. just simply highlighting the relative similarities ..

Staff are only there for the mornings, I have been there often during the afternoon evening no station staff.  Ticket office windows were walled off years ago ..

Hallam is past Dandenong ...  Dandenong is similar to Ipswich in some respects ...

[Gazza]

(and I refuse to own a credit card)

Don't own a Visa Debit?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Debit and credit cards are two different types of card. Debit you own. Credit you don't. Which is what I think he was referring too.