Redcliffe Peninsula Line [was MBRL (Petrie to Kippa Ring)]

[HappyTrainGuy]

we better ban the horse and cart too

Well at least that would see an end to horse and carriage road rage.

[ozbob]

we better ban the horse and cart too

Well at least that would see an end to horse and carriage road rage.

That is very funny ... i am sill wiping the tears from my eyes ..  onwards!!

[Arnz]

we better ban the horse and cart too

Well at least that would see an end to horse and carriage road rage.

[BrizCommuter]

...but places like Moorooka, Oxley, Coorparoo and Toombul all should be sites of TOD. So much so that parking should be removed at these stations (and feeders implemented) with TOD put in.

So what about people living in the station's catchment who live too far away to walk?

Removing station car parking would just force "park 'n' riders" to drive all the way into work, adding to road congestion, pollution and trauma and decreasing public transport patronage. This rather defeats the purpose of this anti-car ideology.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I doubt you could get any decent TOD space from a carpark at toombul anyway. It borders a overpass, the only exit road for the apartments/businesses and a railway corridor.

[Jonno]

Yes it an ideology but one based on better ROI, reduced waste of my taxes, increased retail turn over/local economies, reduced obesity, stronger communities, greater pedestrian safety, providing the necessary housing choice, improving affordability, placemaking, reducing road trauma, efficient freight movements and reduced emissions and impact on the environment.  Call it an ideology or just smart planning in 21 century and building the cities people actually want.

Read the writings or tweets of Brett Toderian, Jeff Speck, Jennifer Keesmaat, Richard Florida, Smart Growth USA, Copenhagenize, CEO for Cities, Walkenomics - to name a few- and you will see that this ideology is building stronger, safer and far better cities.

The alternative is to keep doing more of the same as the last 40 years because that has delivered us such great outcomes!!

PS I have never ever said get rid of all cars!  Never will but only ~35% of motor vehicles need to be on the road (such as tradies and last mile freight) and we should get the rest out of their way.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just on what planet are you living mate? SEQ simply doesn't have the population or lifestyle preferences that maximise the use of TODs the further you get out of town. Not everyone wants to live in a cramped apartment next to a railway station. People have families. Families have pets. We like to travel. We like our backyards. We like our large gatherings. We like our privacy. We like our space. I notice you didn't refer to any Spaniards... you know the ones who built empty high rise apartment buildings/TODs and even a billion dollar international airport with a terminal next to its HSR only to have it remain closed with HSR going right past it.

If you want the convenience that you have listed then move closer to Brisbane/Redcliffe etc where these places currently exist. There's a time and place for big TOD developments but the burbs aren't places for them. You might make it a convenience for a few people but you'll be p%ssing off a larger amount and making it inconvenient for them which is only going to hurt in other aspects eg increasing road trauma, increasing PT costs to provide more services to entice people back onto PT, creating problems as they migrate to other locations - Dakabin is a prime example with people avoiding the long PT transit times/traffic/chaos trying to find a parking spot around Petrie during the weekdays but come the weekend its back to its usual ghost ghetto appearance (as soon as MBRL goes up Dakabin will go back to its quiet self).

[Arnz]

Going by that view, you should also force that view on the Americans.. have 90% of Americans live in towers..  Let's see if that's a raging success?

[Gazza]

This is the excuse used by local and State Govt to keep the status quo because they are too afraid to admit the planning and infrastructure since 1970's has been a complete failure.  I
I also believe they are underestimating the general public who know are very aware that things have gone pear shaped and something needs to change. 

Why does the current failure mean we have to go all the way to the other extreme?

It's not like you see Switzerland, Japan, Germany, France, Singapore etc 100% car free?

Just because we support PT doesn't mean we automatically like your ideas either.

[newbris]

I do agree our suburban development seems stuck in a rut...a push towards a more even mix of modes to get people to the station/school etc could be used.

None of the existing modes will be eliminated but I certainly think we need to be careful about saying what people currently won't do when deciding what could be. There are many types of family groups and the willingness of some of those people to do things differently may be (or may not be) bigger than it appears when the options don't exist yet. The cities that are planned differently from us today were often once the same as us until people with a vision spoke up. Not all ideas translate but some might, and others might partially. <Condescension Off>

[Jonno]

I do agree our suburban development seems stuck in a rut...a push towards a more even mix of modes to get people to the station/school etc could be used.

None of the existing modes will be eliminated but I certainly think we need to be careful about saying what people currently won't do when deciding what could be. There are many types of family groups and the willingness of some of those people to do things differently may be (or may not be) bigger than it appears when the options don't exist yet. The cities that are planned differently from us today were often once the same as us until people with a vision spoke up. Not all ideas translate but some might, and others might partially. <Condescension Off>

Nice to see a "non-the sky's falling"response.  Please read the literature especially those talking about "density done well" before making claims of "90% living in apartments", "forcing anyone to do anything" or "better designed neighbourhoods is extreme"!!

We can build a better city that has a mix , a wide range, lots of variety, lots of choice, of housing in better urban designed neighbourhoods.  It's not radical or on a different planet. It is actually what a lot if people want but can't find. It is just smart planning and/or leadership!

[Jonno]

I do believe I have been taken out of context I have never claimed that we all need to live in apartments, no backyards, all use public or active transport, be car-free, make people walk kms to train stations etc. I am a strong believer in a mix of housing that allows people to have different homes to suit their stage in life as well as being affordable.Have been an advocate of that for over 20yrs.

Yes I don't think park  n ride are the best use of our taxes and there are better ROI from cycling infrastructure and cross-town services. I am not alone in that. Just because I think this doesn't mean I am looking to make SEQ into Tokyo!

I also strongly believe based on my reading of many studies and papers that we have built a region we cannot afford to maintain and/or service.  The region costs too much to keep it moving/operating and is a key contributor to the current budget problems at all levels of Govt.

We can't keep on doing more of the same!!

[James]

So what about people living in the station's catchment who live too far away to walk?

Removing station car parking would just force "park 'n' riders" to drive all the way into work, adding to road congestion, pollution and trauma and decreasing public transport patronage. This rather defeats the purpose of this anti-car ideology.

They will be able to use alternative City buses and feeder buses to get to their destination - as the density of the area will be (theoretically) higher, the area will be able to support a higher level of service (every 15 mins in peak, for example) and thus will decrease the amount of Park n Ride needed due to a higher availability of PT. Right now, all these stations are parked out because feeder buses are non-existant and services in the surrounding area are poor due to BCC's direct services mantra.

Take Oxley station. 15 minute rail frequency, great! Its feeders are (looking at weekdays):
- 101 - Hourly all day, 6am - 6pm
- 102 - Hourly all day, 6am - 6pm
- 467 - Peak-hour route, 30 min frequency (both ways)
- 468 - off-peak route, Hourly frequency

That is, the best feeder in the area has half-hourly frequency in peak and hourly off-peak! With bus routes and frequency like that, they're not going to succeed, especially given how 101 and 102 are both designed for coverage and as such, will not attract many passengers. And THAT is half the reason Oxley is parked out (the other half being awfully designed suburbs like the Edenbrooke estate in 17 Mile Rocks which just make one want to scream). Put on decent feeders, people will come, and some of the carparks can be replaced with TOD in due course.

Nice to see a "non-the sky's falling"response.  Please read the literature especially those talking about "density done well" before making claims of "90% living in apartments", "forcing anyone to do anything" or "better designed neighbourhoods is extreme"!!

We can build a better city that has a mix , a wide range, lots of variety, lots of choice, of housing in better urban designed neighbourhoods.  It's not radical or on a different planet. It is actually what a lot if people want but can't find. It is just smart planning and/or leadership!

Yes, but the smaller a house gets, the closer one wants to be to everything - its a natural trade-off. Building apartments next to a train station in woop-woop will not magically attract people, and if it does attract people, it will be the kind that we don't want hanging around our rail network.

What society/the market wants will dictate what is built, and the only people who want to live 30km from the CBD are the ones who value their white picket fences, kids playing cricket in the street and room in the backyard for a miniature pony - mostly because to have that amount of land/type of house in Toowong or near Garden City would cost millions of dollars, out of most people's price range.

If there isn't a strong market for TOD apartments 10km from the CBD on 4tph (at somewhere like Corinda) how will there be demand for TOD apartments 30km from the CBD at 2tph? It is better use of land simply to put a few townhouses and locate shops and schools around the area, making the station a 'one stop shop' and thus encouraging people to use PT to the station, as they do not need to go on a milk run to the shops on the bus afterwards.

[#Metro]

A simple index to see how popular places are is to look at the price of a property.
Inner properties are more expensive, outer ones are less expensive.

So history speaks with a single, clear voice. People DO want to live in the city inner suburbs AND are willing to pay for it. The places where the value of property > value of car park will indicate which stations are suitable for development as TOD that will be market-supported.

I would strongly suggest places like Auchenflower (may get a new station building as part of the package), Bowen Hills, Fortitude Valley and PARK ROAD would be very good to investigate further.

[Stillwater]

Planning should not exclude the possibility of TOD developments further out, in the 'burbs.  Look at the transformation around Darra, for instance.  Coopers Plains would seem to be one up-and-coming potential TOD.  More often than not, better transport services can transform a suburban centre and make it a TOD.  Other possible TOD's 'out there' -- Ferny Grove, Petrie.  By and large, Nundah/Toombul is a TOD.  Caboolture is a TOD in the making and could be helped along with some innovative planning by the local council there.

[techblitz]

Planning should not exclude the possibility of TOD developments further out, in the 'burbs.  Look at the transformation around Darra, for instance.  Coopers Plains would seem to be one up-and-coming potential TOD.  More often than not, better transport services can transform a suburban centre and make it a TOD.  Other possible TOD's 'out there' -- Ferny Grove, Petrie.  By and large, Nundah/Toombul is a TOD.  Caboolture is a TOD in the making and could be helped along with some innovative planning by the local council there.

Agreed....plenty of opps out in the burbs..and affordability/access to city via train will always produce high demand no matter where it is built....proximity to a major grocery chains will also be a bonus.

Just on toombul...it already has plenty of surrounding apartments....but could do with some larger highrise apartment complexes....which hopefully eventuates....due to its proximity to the airport,skygate and bus/rail <<<< big time opp..


Coopers plains is fast becoming an overcrowded student hotspot and urgently needs apartment development!It has been flagged before by council for overcrowded houses.

i would really like to see pine rd near richlands developed residentially and then a small iga built at progress corner to help walkup patronage to richlands...which is poor at best....unfortunately it looks like there is no interest as a major hardware store is also a top priority.

Darra needs to be looked at bigtime i agree but it looks as though the immediate area is zoned industrial/commercial..which will not help its cause.

I like wynnum central as a t.o.d..specifically for its access to train,bus,beach,shopping and vacant land.

[BrizCommuter]

So what about people living in the station's catchment who live too far away to walk?

Removing station car parking would just force "park 'n' riders" to drive all the way into work, adding to road congestion, pollution and trauma and decreasing public transport patronage. This rather defeats the purpose of this anti-car ideology.

They will be able to use alternative City buses and feeder buses to get to their destination - as the density of the area will be (theoretically) higher, the area will be able to support a higher level of service (every 15 mins in peak, for example) and thus will decrease the amount of Park n Ride needed due to a higher availability of PT. Right now, all these stations are parked out because feeder buses are non-existant and services in the surrounding area are poor due to BCC's direct services mantra.

Take Oxley station. 15 minute rail frequency, great! Its feeders are (looking at weekdays):
- 101 - Hourly all day, 6am - 6pm
- 102 - Hourly all day, 6am - 6pm
- 467 - Peak-hour route, 30 min frequency (both ways)
- 468 - off-peak route, Hourly frequency

That is, the best feeder in the area has half-hourly frequency in peak and hourly off-peak! With bus routes and frequency like that, they're not going to succeed, especially given how 101 and 102 are both designed for coverage and as such, will not attract many passengers. And THAT is half the reason Oxley is parked out (the other half being awfully designed suburbs like the Edenbrooke estate in 17 Mile Rocks which just make one want to scream). Put on decent feeders, people will come, and some of the carparks can be replaced with TOD in due course.

The problem is that a high frequency feeder service to most stations (i.e. less than approx. 1000 passengers per peak period) is financially unviable. Also, why would passengers wait up to 15 mins for a connecting bus vs getting straight into their car? Again, your ideology appears to be overtaking reality.

[Jonno]

If we get the mode split and frequency right then people will voluntarily walk, cycle or catch the cross-town service.  It exists in many cities (no I am not talking Tokyo or New York) so it is reality if we just try!!!

[James]

The problem is that a high frequency feeder service to most stations (i.e. less than approx. 1000 passengers per peak period) is financially unviable. Also, why would passengers wait up to 15 mins for a connecting bus vs getting straight into their car? Again, your ideology appears to be overtaking reality.

It is very much financially viable if done well. HF25 Mt Ommaney to Forest Lake via Oxley and Inala was going to do just that.

Firstly, the bus will be co-ordinated with the train - 5 minute connections, absolute maximum. Core peak on the inner Springfield Line is every 6 minutes in the AM peak, no waiting time. PM peak, if co-ordinated well with the trains, will only result in a wait of a few minutes (ideally the process will be get off train, walk down stairs, walk to bus, get on bus). Thus, the only time where there is any kind of extended wait is at the bus stop on the way to the station at the home - in the end the only way that can be minimised is increasing frequency to every 15 minutes at a minimum.

It is doable, its just apparently everybody is too precious to transfer, and when we do try transfers, the gap between bus and train is either too small or too large, making the connection unattractive, not to mention that BCC lets the bus leave at its scheduled departure time even if the connecting service is running late. Make the bus frequent and people will come! BUZ does just that, all a frequent feeder is is a BUZ or near-BUZ with a forced transfer.

Secondly, there is a little problem with the car - parking. Residents of 17 Mile Rocks are not Harry Potter, they cannot wave a wand and apparate/summon their car! They have to park their car - and with these places becoming parked out, the time saved by driving is being eroded. There is also the issue of cars spending all day in the hot sun, where cars are subject to the elements (hot car, birds going to the toilet, people who can't park and dint your car, and especially summer storms). There are also the associated on-road costs - a family living in the area surrounding Oxley may be able to reduce from two cars to one permanently if the feeder buses were adequate (i.e. not stopping at 6pm!). I know in Moggill this has happened to a great extent due to the introduction of the BUZ. Not exactly the same thing, but similar concept - provide a decent bus service and people will use it!

And finally - there is no proof that feeder buses won't work in Brisbane because a proper feeder service has never been adequately trialled and run. Most of the feeders are half-baked with poor span, routing and frequency and are often duplicated by City-bound services. The only real strong examples of transferring on the network are Uni students from bus/rail to buses to UQ, and that's hardly a good example.

Of course its unviable to provide a bus coming every 10 minutes to a very-low density pocket of suburbia in Burpengary or Greenbank, but in the 'regular' Brisbane suburbs it is very much a viable idea.

[BrizCommuter]

The problem is that a high frequency feeder service to most stations (i.e. less than approx. 1000 passengers per peak period) is financially unviable. Also, why would passengers wait up to 15 mins for a connecting bus vs getting straight into their car? Again, your ideology appears to be overtaking reality.

It is very much financially viable if done well. HF25 Mt Ommaney to Forest Lake via Oxley and Inala was going to do just that.

Yes, and it probably would have worked well, but serves a large public transport blackhole - i.e a catchment of more than 1000 pax per station. Same goes for potential feeders into Mitchelton and Enoggera from Northern Suburbs. However, much of Brisbane is not suitable for high frequency feeders - for example a 15 min feeder from Upper Kedron to Ferny Grove/Keperra probably could not be justified.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Alot of routes shouldn't be 15 mins. Even those that are already 15 minutes. But for the biggest benefit when it comes to frequency and routes would come from a proper and fully integrated network which outside the ticketing system we just simply do not have established in the Brisbane/outer Brisbane area. I will even say right now the 357/359 should not be 15 minutes on the existing network (I have said here before for very exact same reason for why the Caboolture railway line shouldn't have services increased - not enough feeder services). Nor should that frequency be from 4am-3am like the current buz hour standard seems to be ( ). That's p%ssing money away. Same with the 330 and 340. There are indeed times where they are worthy of a bus every 15 minutes but on the existing network resources are overused, running hours with that amount of resources is are being under utilized, its putting added costs into a over utilised corridor where services could be increased in other areas. It would be far better to cut services and start running routes between key points and interchanges. Something that was really achieved in the network review for the northside. Some areas were poorly handled but those were areas that could be improved on under consultation. Take Carseldine. Some really big expansion going on yet it only has 2 extra bus services both running in peak direction only. Construction of the Norris Road extension has begun so that could really open up the area for feeder design wise with Bracken Ridge now having a fast and direct link to a Railway station.

[Old Northern Road]

You can never build park and rides which are big enough to serve everyone. Despite the tens of millions they've spent expanding the car parks on the Caboolture line they are all completely full by around 7am and the same will be true of the MBRL stations. I guarantee that decent feeder buses would be extremely popular if they existed in Moreton Bay.

It's not the size of the car parks of these new stations which concern me but the lack of bus interchanges like you see on the Springfield line stations.

[Old Northern Road]

Yes, but the smaller a house gets, the closer one wants to be to everything - its a natural trade-off. Building apartments next to a train station in woop-woop will not magically attract people, and if it does attract people, it will be the kind that we don't want hanging around our rail network.

What society/the market wants will dictate what is built, and the only people who want to live 30km from the CBD are the ones who value their white picket fences, kids playing cricket in the street and room in the backyard for a miniature pony - mostly because to have that amount of land/type of house in Toowong or near Garden City would cost millions of dollars, out of most people's price range.

If there isn't a strong market for TOD apartments 10km from the CBD on 4tph (at somewhere like Corinda) how will there be demand for TOD apartments 30km from the CBD at 2tph? It is better use of land simply to put a few townhouses and locate shops and schools around the area, making the station a 'one stop shop' and thus encouraging people to use PT to the station, as they do not need to go on a milk run to the shops on the bus afterwards.

Public Transport is not something that should only be available for the very rich. It makes no sense to force poor people to live in the middle of nowhere in places like Warner or Caboolture West where they have absolutely no chance of ever escaping poverty. Anyway this development seems to include quite a decent amount of medium density housing and there are already apartments and townhouses being built around Kippa-Ring, Kallangur and Mango Hill. Lawnton has quite a large number of apartments around it as well.

[James]

Public Transport is not something that should only be available for the very rich. It makes no sense to force poor people to live in the middle of nowhere in places like Warner or Caboolture West where they have absolutely no chance of ever escaping poverty. Anyway this development seems to include quite a decent amount of medium density housing and there are already apartments and townhouses being built around Kippa-Ring, Kallangur and Mango Hill. Lawnton has quite a large number of apartments around it as well.

I didn't say that PT was only for the rich. But apartments 30km from the CBD are worth less than houses 30km from the CBD. This should be kept in mind, as if a glut of apartments is built, apartments in the area will become devalued and thus, you will get undesirable people moving into the area. This is NOT what we want happening, especially close to train stations (which we are trying to promote as being safe, not suburban ghettos like some stations are currently).

There is a difference between affordable housing and dirt cheap housing.

Yes, and it probably would have worked well, but serves a large public transport blackhole - i.e a catchment of more than 1000 pax per station. Same goes for potential feeders into Mitchelton and Enoggera from Northern Suburbs. However, much of Brisbane is not suitable for high frequency feeders - for example a 15 min feeder from Upper Kedron to Ferny Grove/Keperra probably could not be justified.

Of course, short feeders like this would not sustain 15-minute frequency off-peak, but in peak it should happen. It should also be looked at whether the route could be extended, or that changes could be made such that the route is lengthened and made so it could support such frequencies.

Ferny Grove is not a place where I support removing the Park n Ride. It is far enough away that Park n Ride is of good use (especially given its proximity to Samford), and the road layout in the area is not great. Oxley could benefit greatly through an improved 467/468 and improved frequency. Same for the 101/102/103. Half-hourly would be adequate for now (with 15 minute peak frequency), and this would decrease Park n Ride demand, freeing up space for further TOD.

Darra, identical. SE busway stations, similar concept could be applied there. I would also say in Wynnum/Manly instead of putting a BUZ down Wynnum Road (and locking in a bus-centric future), set up a FUZ (feeder BUZ) which goes from Cannon Hill station to one of the Wynnum stations. Eventually when 15 minute frequency goes to Manly, this can be a 'dual action' feeder, feeding pax to rail and key centres in both directions. Toombul, same thing - turn the 306/322 and other buses up there into feeders into Toombul rail/Toombul bus station. Even without 15 minute frequency, a lot of the northside's bus routes can be turned into feeders and thus, Park n Ride at some stations redeveloped into TOD.

Yes, not everybody deserves a FUZ at this point, but there are a lot of places demanding a 30-minute feeder route with 6am - 8/9pm span - very acceptable and far better than the current network.

[#Metro]

Different cities are different. In some cities, poor people DO live in the inner areas and that's the problem areas, the middle class live further away from the centre. My view is simple, if the car park is full, start charging like Perth does. Feeder buses are nice, but not applicable everywhere. During peak hour, the bus fleet is used to the max, so any additional services during peak require the purchasing of a brand new bus (~ $1 million each).

You can quickly see that there is no escape from financial reality. Bicycles on the other hand are cheap and easy, not everyone can ride but then again, not everyone can drive and we don't go around designing places like cars don't exist. Bicycles have a great untapped potential IMHO because they also provide instant frequency and directional change at will, like a car. As a feeder mode they're faster than walking and have a wider range (a few km) as well.

I can't say I agree with the whole "ghettos" comment, I'm not aware of any "ghettos" in Brisbane, and I'm sure that developers who rely on image and presentation to entice people to buy do go to long lengths to ensure they don't turn that way anyway.

It'S all a numbers game when it comes to PT. More services in one area means less service hours in another one, given any constant level of funding. There is no escape from this.

[minbrisbane]

You can never build park and rides which are big enough to serve everyone. Despite the tens of millions they've spent expanding the car parks on the Caboolture line they are all completely full by around 7am and the same will be true of the MBRL stations. I guarantee that decent feeder buses would be extremely popular if they existed in Moreton Bay.

There are.  668 began it's life as a peak-only feeder from Deception Bay to and from Narangba Station.  Now it runs all day.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Zillmere seems to be a bit of a ghetto at night or at least that's where a lot of the trouble makers live

[James]

Different cities are different. In some cities, poor people DO live in the inner areas and that's the problem areas, the middle class live further away from the centre. My view is simple, if the car park is full, start charging like Perth does. Feeder buses are nice, but not applicable everywhere. During peak hour, the bus fleet is used to the max, so any additional services during peak require the purchasing of a brand new bus (~ $1 million each).

You can quickly see that there is no escape from financial reality. Bicycles on the other hand are cheap and easy, not everyone can ride but then again, not everyone can drive and we don't go around designing places like cars don't exist. Bicycles have a great untapped potential IMHO because they also provide instant frequency and directional change at will, like a car. As a feeder mode they're faster than walking and have a wider range (a few km) as well.

I can't say I agree with the whole "ghettos" comment, I'm not aware of any "ghettos" in Brisbane, and I'm sure that developers who rely on image and presentation to entice people to buy do go to long lengths to ensure they don't turn that way anyway.

It'S all a numbers game when it comes to PT. More services in one area means less service hours in another one, given any constant level of funding. There is no escape from this.

As has been shown in a lot of places, there is air running even in the frequent network and high-performing P-rockets like the 130/140/150/200/330/340 series - a lot of them can be converted to feeders with a net gain in bus availability. Having new feeders may not necessarily mean we need to order more buses.

The issue is, most people DO have cars, and those people are currently Park n Riding. While bicycles take less space, bicycles also require physical exertion, which in a hot climate, will very quickly make for a smelly train - especially if not provided with end-of-trip facilities (i.e. riding a bike in 'heavy' clothes - long pants, long-sleeved shirts etc.). This is the reason why I do not walk to Uni, even though it is a walkable distance (around 2km) - by the time I get there, I'm a sweaty mess in summer (that being said, I do not dawdle). It is not fun!

My ghettos comment referred to public perception (e.g. HTG's comment regarding Zillmere) of some railway stations being undesirable places to be around at night. If the station is designed well and it and its surroundings well lit, it can become attractive enough to repel the 'derelict' kind of image. But right now, the rail network has a very downtrodden feel to it - and when people don't feel safe, they will not use the service full stop. This is in fact an argument I have heard from some people as to why they do not want to be fed to railway stations, buses are perceived to be safer than trains due to the driver being able to hear/see an attack, robbery etc.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I feel safe at a lot of the stations around the network. Its the directly surrounding areas that I really hate which is what attracts those type of antisocial people to lurk around the outskirts of the station or leads them to the stations. All the stations are always fully lit up while the surrounding walkways on council property have 1-2 footpath lights and a couple long spaced out street lights. Which is also another reason why park and rides are also popular at stations when it comes to traveling later in the afternoon/evening. Take Dakabin. Car park (station property) fully lit. Station platform fully lit. Drop off area fully lit. Public walkways/pathways to nearby housing unlit. Trees/bushland type environment around the unlit pathway. Roads unlit/long spaced lighting. You just have to ride the network at night to see the darkness surrounding before arriving at the station with lights from the Gabba. The best example I can give is flying into Brisbane at night. You can spot the stations in an instant. Its easy because they are well lit up with darkness surrounding the area.

[#Metro]

While bicycles take less space, bicycles also require physical exertion, which in a hot climate, will very quickly make for a smelly train - especially if not provided with end-of-trip facilities (i.e. riding a bike in 'heavy' clothes - long pants, long-sleeved shirts etc.).

Sure, but the role of bicycle is under-emphasised I think. Exercise is a good thing! It doesn't have to appeal to EVERYONE for it to grow mode share. Cars have disadvantages too - it has to be filled up with petrol ($$$) and finding (and paying) for a car park is a pain, for example. Bicycles don't.

[STB]

While bicycles take less space, bicycles also require physical exertion, which in a hot climate, will very quickly make for a smelly train - especially if not provided with end-of-trip facilities (i.e. riding a bike in 'heavy' clothes - long pants, long-sleeved shirts etc.).

Sure, but the role of bicycle is under-emphasised I think. Exercise is a good thing! It doesn't have to appeal to EVERYONE for it to grow mode share. Cars have disadvantages too - it has to be filled up with petrol ($$$) and finding (and paying) for a car park is a pain, for example. Bicycles don't.

Just to pipe in.  I'm sure most people here can agree that there are genuine positives and genuine negatives for public transport, genuine positives and genuine negatives for cars, and genuine positives and genuine negatives for active transport (be it walking, riding a bike etc).  The key thing is that there has to be a balance and it has to be managed well, hence why you'll never see me say 'Oh roads should be all cut in turn of putting on public transport for every car user, and every car user has to be using public transport', that is just bonkers and ideology that can never work, and you'd have to have some sort of mental condition to think that it could work.

In saying that though, can and should public transport uptake be higher - of course it can!  I think public transport though needs a complete makeover, and the politics needs to be taken out of public transport planning.  Authorities and politicians (in particular), including us, need to accept that public transport isn't going to suit everybody, and there will always be losers in any service change, no matter how sexy it looks. 

In terms of the makeover, it needs to be more consumer focused, with higher frequencies depending on the density you are servicing, and the locations you are servicing, through to the fares and the fare structure (more choice in the type of fares I think will empower people and make them feel that public transport isn't a last resort), and heck, advertise public transport, show people that, yes, there is a bus outside your door, that may be able to take you where you want to go.  If people are hesitant, see if there's someone in the family who is prepared to go with a family member on a bus or a train and let them experience it for themselves what it is like.  And make sure you have staff there to deal with any issues that arise, quickly and efficiently, and is highly knowledgeable and has strong communication skills, with a management who is there to back them up, rather than dictate what they should say and at what time (Queensland Rail I'm looking at you in particular, especially in the past year).

Personally, I think a turn up and go frequency on all major corridors needs to happen that head to major centres, with local buses that support that network running at least hourly, 7 days a week, higher the closer to the city you are and other major destinations.  And buses need to compliment rail (and vice versa), rather than directly compete with each other.

Of course, what I've said is easier said than done, but I'm optimistic.

[Golliwog]

The problem is that a high frequency feeder service to most stations (i.e. less than approx. 1000 passengers per peak period) is financially unviable. Also, why would passengers wait up to 15 mins for a connecting bus vs getting straight into their car? Again, your ideology appears to be overtaking reality.

It is very much financially viable if done well. HF25 Mt Ommaney to Forest Lake via Oxley and Inala was going to do just that.

Yes, and it probably would have worked well, but serves a large public transport blackhole - i.e a catchment of more than 1000 pax per station. Same goes for potential feeders into Mitchelton and Enoggera from Northern Suburbs. However, much of Brisbane is not suitable for high frequency feeders - for example a 15 min feeder from Upper Kedron to Ferny Grove/Keperra probably could not be justified.

Probably true. Having a look at the timetable, Upper Kedron gets a roughly 20 minute (some gaps 30, some 15) peak frequency from the 367 which then drops to hourly in the off-peak. I'd still argue that their poor off-peak patronage that they used to justify cutting from the previous 30 minutes to hourly was more due to the loop service that ran during that period rather than the route itself. I'd like to have seen what happened to patronage if they had kept the frequency in the offpeak when they removed the loop.

[techblitz]

Agreed briz....no amount of bus frequency can save upper kedron...too low density,i notice a lot of tradies in upper kedron.It would be interesting to know how many are driving to FG station from upper kedron....due to the location of coles and woolies,sporting facilities....i suspect a lot. Add to the fact that samford rd,waterworks rds still flow relatively freely at peak.....just adds to the incentive to drive.

@rtt
Good post.

Just on feeders....the 460 seems to be doing very well at peak with standing loads from richlands...which cements the fact that a route NEEDS to go direct from richlands to forest lake without mucking around through any other suburbs to keep its timesaving features in place. I think BT have made the right decision in this respect....forest lake being the main patronage generator.. The connection times are pretty good as well. Due to limited traffic holdup across all services..the ontime reliability is pretty good between forest lake and richlands.

[Golliwog]

My view is it's not the lack of density that's killing Upper Kedron, rather the road layouts. Too many culdesacs with the only through streets being far to twisty and have added traffic calming for good measure. Makes any bus route that strays off the main roads to try and gain a bit of extra patronage struggle.

[SurfRail]

Just on feeders....the 460 seems to be doing very well at peak with standing loads from richlands...which cements the fact that a route NEEDS to go direct from richlands to forest lake without mucking around through any other suburbs to keep its timesaving features in place. I think BT have made the right decision in this respect....forest lake being the main patronage generator.. The connection times are pretty good as well. Due to limited traffic holdup across all services..the ontime reliability is pretty good between forest lake and richlands.

That's what the 465 was.  Again - TransLink and BT put on trial new paradigm services in Brisbane like the 369 and 465 which work virtually everywhere else (eg cross-town routes in Melbourne, rail feeder routes in Perth, Adelaide, the Gold Coast) and then cock it up by leaving competing routes in place which go direct to town without a transfer (375 for the former, 460 and 461 for the latter).  It's stupid.

[Jonno]

Great debate and good all-round transport discussion. Yes we can do way better than we are at the moment including feeder/cross-town services and better trunk routes. No not all trips will be by public transport but it can play a far greater role as can cycling and walking.  The last 2 can play a far far greater role than they do today. Yes we can develop far better compact, mixed use neighbourhoods with a wider range of housing. No every house does not have to be an apartment.

Better urban and land-use design can significantly improve our transport mix

[HappyTrainGuy]

It'S all a numbers game when it comes to PT. More services in one area means less service hours in another one, given any constant level of funding. There is no escape from this.

Unless you live along the magical 340 buz  or Gympie Road corridor.

You can never build park and rides which are big enough to serve everyone. Despite the tens of millions they've spent expanding the car parks on the Caboolture line they are all completely full by around 7am and the same will be true of the MBRL stations. I guarantee that decent feeder buses would be extremely popular if they existed in Moreton Bay.

It's not the size of the car parks of these new stations which concern me but the lack of bus interchanges like you see on the Springfield line stations.

Missed this post earlier. Its not that the stations lack interchanges with the buses but the bus network has never really had a proper up to date revamp. Even getting from point A to point B can be a major hassle with a big majority of the buses being scenic tours. You have the 325/335 offering locals fast trips to the local Westfield to connect to batshitcrazy Gympie Road corridor with 3 buz routes to the city and both go to railway stations at Geebung, Carseldine, Boondall and Sandgate along with going to the local shops (Chermside/Taigum) but they only make an hourly appearance. And the proper loop routes for the area are run on a frequency worse than the Nambour line between morning peak and arvo peak only. The Redcliffe network is already in the final stages of having its whole network designed as pretty much a feeder service. Redcliffe by far has the best designed rail feeder network and there's not even a railway line in sight. The reason for the park and rides on the Caboolture line expanding are due to the failing bus network around them. Many people that live along the MBRL already drive to stations closer to Brisbane. Bald Hills (One set of traffic lights and boom 100kph road back to the North Lakes/Murrumba Downs turn off) and Petrie being the most popular. Dakabin is followed shortly behind. Strathpine, Bray Park and Lawnton has exploded because there are trains every 7 or so minutes yet there's only a bus every 60 minutes. That's not to mention the poor afternoon running hours. Sunshine (despite being in the middle of an industrial estate, Geebung, Zillmere, Carseldine, Narangba, Burpengary and Morayfield are in the exact same boat. Housing, businesses and shopping centres has expanded like crazy and yet the bus network (either in its design, running hours or frequency) is still trailing behind. Narangba and Burpengary only recently had the 7pm final request only service added as a full time service.

Quite a shame really.

[James]

That's what the 465 was.  Again - TransLink and BT put on trial new paradigm services in Brisbane like the 369 and 465 which work virtually everywhere else (eg cross-town routes in Melbourne, rail feeder routes in Perth, Adelaide, the Gold Coast) and then cock it up by leaving competing routes in place which go direct to town without a transfer (375 for the former, 460 and 461 for the latter).  It's stupid.

With due credit to BCC, some 460 services do start at Richlands in the PM peak. The running of the 465 in competition with the 460 was totally daft and devoid of logic, especially off-peak as it provided no meaningful frequency increase due to the way it was timetabled/the fact it was hourly. However, why the 460 goes beyond Mt Ommaney is beyond me, especially when the 454 generally comes just a few minutes after.

I know of people who live in Forest Lake and go to Indooroopilly, and they actually do use 460 + train in preference to 460 to Indooroopilly. Especially in the west, the buses through Indooroopilly are known for being notoriously unreliable (some run 5-10 minutes late, some don't turn up, and often 5 turn up at once and fill the stop with fumes). I think the review went a step too far when it removed the Forest Lake - Centenary suburbs (specifically Mt Ommaney) connection. Its why in my own review I kept it - otherwise to get from Forest Lake to Mt Ommaney by PT would be a trip which would require two transfers and be a lot slower than at present. But the route should not continue to Indro, yet alone the CBD.

Also just noticed that the 460 has suffered service cuts on Sunday - quite noticeable ones too. It had 30 minute frequency for a portion of the day - now cut. Saturday has also received cuts, I can see. The bus review engulfs another suburb?

[Old Northern Road]

Look at the satillite photo of Shorncliffe, small suburban station on a penisula where you would think most of the  houses are within walking distance and you would think no one drives there from other areas, like say Beenleigh. But how many cars are on the street around the station? How many use that station in peak? Can you justify more buses than current?

People from Redcliffe who can't get a park at Sandgate drive to Shorncliffe.

(Comment, Leipzig, old former East German city suffering on going population decline has basically dying high density inner city outside CBD (old soviet era blocks), but thriving outer suburban in low density housing. The tram networks are often reduced to single line, often in average condition and even running along one side of the road as you approach the historic terminus, then off the road to modern dedicated ROW, higher speed, dual track with P'n'ride stations.)

Are you talking about the same Leipzig which has recently built its own CRR? Not bad for a city with about the same population as the Gold Coast. Park and Rides are only found in the outer parts of German cities and they are usually a lot smaller than the ones you find here. The ones I saw seemed to be pretty empty as well.

We can do alot more to reduce the overall collective driven distance each day in Brisbane by commuters than throw money down the drain at rolling out local buses where demand is simply not there. The car parks probably do more good than bad as they encourage the use of the train.

There is a huge demand for feeder buses at many stations.

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Petrie to be the first hub of activity as the $1 billion Moreton Bay Rail Link begins construction

THE Moreton Bay Rail Link will begin major construction around the Petrie area from this month.

The works come after representatives from the Moreton Bay Regional Council, Federal Government and State Government turned the first sod on the project at Mango Hill in December.

Work on the project set to take place in January includes:

- Investigation of underground services for detailed design work on Dohles Rocks Rd.

- Clearing the rail corridor from Petrie to Kallangur.

- Continued construction of a turnout facility near Muller Lane.

- New tracks and materials delivered to Petrie station in preparation of construction starting.

The project site office will be established at the former Amcor Mill in Petrie with a community information centre for the public to view project information and talk to the project team, to be completed early this year.