Redcliffe Peninsula Line [was MBRL (Petrie to Kippa Ring)]

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2012/01/moreton-bay-rail-link-also-half-baked.html
Is the MBRL about to join the mediocrity of SE Queensland infrastructure projects?

[O_128]

last quarters getting pretty late though I guess if previous projects are to go buy we could see this open late 2015 early 2016

[ozbob]

A flat junction set up would also mean slowing the freighters ...

It is mind numbing that the authorities would consider building the Petrie junction as flat.  They need to go way and practise building model railway layouts ...


http://railgallery.wongm.com/albums/metro-trains-melbourne/E103_7516.jpg

Burnley flyover, built 1943.  Allows down Glen Waverley trains to cross seamlessly.

[#Metro]

It is mind numbing that the authorities would consider building the Petrie junction as flat.  They need to go way and practise building model railway layouts ...

Cheap and nasty!

They have to focus on QUALITY not COVERAGE.

Cutting a station or two to save $$$ in order to pay for a flyover would be better than crappy service! These things cost $200 million / km easily, PLEASE PLEASE get it done right the first time!

[Stillwater]

I can never understand why the MBRL stops short of the major shopping centre at the Kippa-Ring end.

[O_128]

I can never understand why the MBRL stops short of the major shopping centre at the Kippa-Ring end.

Because that would make sense, They want it to be like the indooroopilly set up of course.

[#Metro]

No problems people can just get a bus in. The feeder bus network will be interesting - grid roads! 

[BrizCommuter]

Having a flat crossing is hardly crappy

It is crappy when you have 18tph running in one direction, and would want run at least a half-decent service in the opposite direction. If an outbound to Kippa-Ring service is delayed, and delays an inbound service from Caboolture, then every following am peak service would get delayed where they merge before Northgate.

Take a flight to London and observe the flat junctions on London Underground's Sub-Surface Lines. It's very messy! 

[Mr X]

If we want off peak shuttles to make a 15 min frequency, it would annoy people going bus -> train -> train just to get to the city. Just saying.

[#Metro]

If we want off peak shuttles to make a 15 min frequency, it would annoy people going bus -> train -> train just to get to the city. Just saying.

A 30 second timed cross platform connection at Petrie where the doors open on one train pax walk across the platform into the train on the opposite side or a 30 minute variable wait for the next Kippa-Ring train?

Which is worse?

[mufreight]

If we want off peak shuttles to make a 15 min frequency, it would annoy people going bus -> train -> train just to get to the city. Just saying.

A 30 second timed cross platform connection at Petrie where the doors open on one train pax walk across the platform into the train on the opposite side or a 30 minute variable wait for the next Kippa-Ring train?

Which is worse?

Have yet after a lifetime of experience using and working with trains to see a 30 second cross platform transfer between trains, two to three minutes might be realistic but a minimum of four to five minutes would appear to be the timetabled average which gives an allowance of about two minutes for late running of the primary service.

[HappyTrainGuy]

@Stillwater. The expense would be too great once property resumptions, bridges for grade seperation and impact on locals because of the additional track for limited benefit along with local road infrastructure constraints.

@Simon, I don't see the MBRL being scrapped considering so many tenders have gone out recently for engineering/consultancy/design and road bridge construction. The most expensive parts I see are the whole Lawnton-Petrie bridge/NCL-MBRL spur and full DDA upgrades to other platforms (So I've heard), the earth/drainage/construction works to get the track elevated 8-10m above the Bruce Highway and the Kippa Ring station/stabling/bus interchange works.

@RTT, Yeah, I've been thinking something very similar might end up being used. If the NWTC/Trouts Road corridor is constructed the 2 tracks on the far left would become the NCL/thru service tracks so to speak. 4 tracks Petrie-Strathpine would be easier than 4 to Northgate which would negate the need for a flyover due to sectorisation with CRR. And wouldn't plans for that flyover have to take into account the tripple and Anzac Ave bridge replacment. I tend to think the Petrie bridge will be built with 3 tracks with the middle track being bi-di for NCL express and Kippa Ring bound services and with the provision of a 4th track to easily be built once the NWTC/Trouts Road/quad to Northgate requires a 4th line along the eastern side of the line in the future. Having said all that it would prevent freight conflicts on FI/AC bound movements.

The Redcliffe/Kippa Ring area already operates very good feeder routes (better than Brisbane IMHO) and there isn't even a train station there yet. I think heavy rail any futher is just not needed considering the amount of routes they currently flood the area with without duplicating what the rail line does. The Kippa Ring area already has 4 clock/anit clockwise local loop routes operating each on a 30 minute frequency. When Kippa Ring goes through simply extend all routes a few hundred metres to the railway station and extend the 693/694 along Anzac Ave and BAM! 15 min frequency between the railway station-Kippa Ring Shops-Hopsital-Redcliffe Shops/Redcliffe Jetty.
http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/services-and-timetables/timetables/111128-693,694,696,697.pdf

@0128, Except this won't be like Indooroopilly. Kippa Ring Station has been designated as dedicated major interchange/petential TOD hub which means local bus routes feeding it along with the local Kippa Ring feeder services being extended and terminate at the station instead of the shopping centre.

TransLink suggests that Kallangur, Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road East and Rothwell will be classified as "Local Standard Stations" and Kippa-Ring a "District Multi-modal Station" in accordance with TransLink's Public transport stop and station hierarchy principles. "Local Standard Stations" primarily cater for the transport needs of the immediate community, with a limited interchanging role. "District Multi-modal Stations" are considered to be significant patronage attractors serving larger catchment areas, and provide a high level interchanging role.

@HBU, Who said it had to be Kippa Ring getting the shuttles Caboolture could easily be culled during the day/night and operate as a 3 car shuttle making it 4tph to Kippa Ring. Since Springfield-Richlands extension is estimated to finish around the same time maybe Springfield-Kippa Ring could be 4tph with 2tph exp Ipswich-Caboolture (Which is really more plausable and easier to acheive since Nambour trains operate all stations City to Northgate now in my books. Just send each exp (Caboolture/Nambour) train a couple minutes ahead of the Kippa Ring services and it won't catch the previous all stopper before the Lawnton cross leaving the middle track open for freight/traveltrain/Nambour-Gympie services).

[O_128]

Out of curiosity should RBOT start pushing for quadding lawnton to petrie or at least the bridge built to accommodate 2 tracks so we don't get stuck again in 20 years?

[ozbob]

Out of curiosity should RBOT start pushing for quadding lawnton to petrie or at least the bridge built to accommodate 2 tracks so we don't get stuck again in 20 years?

I think the bridge will be built with a future expansion in mind ...

meanwhile



Chicago, reputed to be busiest the rail junction in the world once.

[somebody]

If the tracks remain 3 tracks to Petrie station, you have NCL Nth bound track KR traffic crossing the south bound NCL traffic only. But this configuration would have more benefit.
          --------------------
-----<    NCL Plat    Nth to Cab
   \      >-------------------
-----<
    /    >------------
-----<   Kippa Plat   Off to KR
          -------------

That would have the Kippa Ring bound conflicting with the Caboolture to Roma St trains.  It also doesn't allow for Petrie terminators starters unless there is something not plotted.

[ozbob]

I am confident that Petrie will not be a flat junction.  Queensland Rail certainly don't want that, and most folks I talk to agree.

It is time to move forwards and not try to continually  justify sloppy outcomes on a nebulous cost basis.  Not doing it right will only lead to massive expenditure to fix it later.  Get it right from the outset.  

Flat junctions will force speed restrictions on through trains, be they freight or passenger.  It is time our railway network actually looked to best practise elsewhere and started to future proof the network.

[#Metro]

This is not the Singapore MRT with 2min turnaround time. Not ideal, but not end of world either and a good set of cross overs will make the different to what Doomben and Cleveland have no and something alot better.

QUALITY. There is NO substitute for it!

Core Frequent Network needs DECENT infrastructure to run frequently. Not rubbish!

Let's not spend billions of dollars and then botch it to save what is, in the grand scheme of things, ~ 3% of the total project cost.
Simplicity allows high capacity and frequency and much easier timetabling. It means that the system can start running decent services
that people actually want to catch.

No more rubbish please!

As for shuttles, I think they are a valid consideration. There is only so much cash and *IF* that means run 30 minutes direct or run 15 minutes (possibly more) using a shuttle I would take the frequency of the shuttle and run with it. If it is good enough for people on the Sheppard-Yonge line in Toronto and lots of other places, I don't see what is THAT special about Kippa Ring that people cannot walk across a platform.

Learn from mistakes!

[somebody]

Flat junctions will force speed restrictions on through trains, be they freight or passenger.  It is time our railway network actually looked to best practise elsewhere and started to future proof the network.

If the Caboolture line gets the straight through path, I don't see why this part is necessary.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep, Gold Coast points are rated at 80kph just prior/after the stations past Beenleigh.

[ozbob]

 I have been informed by those who know, actual railway experts (those in professional employ in the rail industry which helps form my non-expert opinion) that a flat junction will impose speed restrictions particularly on freighters because of the stopping distances required, and the frequent conflicts caused.

Briz is correct.  A flat junction will be real crappy.

We will leave it for now, and see what comes out of the melting pot.

[somebody]

I have been informed by those who know, actual railway experts (those in professional employ in the rail industry which helps form my non-expert opinion) that a flat junction will impose speed restrictions particularly on freighters because of the stopping distances required, and the frequent conflicts caused.

Briz is correct.  A flat junction will be real crappy.

We will leave it for now, and see what comes out of the melting pot.

Good point.  It's not just about the maximum permissible speed.

[mufreight]

To those proposing a flat junction where the MBRL divirges from the NCL at Petrie wake up, once again without any experience in train operation other than sitting on a train as a passenger you are proposing another half baked solution that will cost millions to rectify when known predicted traffic flows at this point due to other project such as the NCL duplication to Nambour and CAMCOS are brought on line.
Must be from the same school of thought as the LNP advisers who suggested 7 car train sets, not constructing CRR and instead building a Metro system with an eventual cost of better than double the cost of CRR and not resolying the problems of existing heavy rail train paths through the CBD.

[somebody]

Hi Simon,
The forward/back slashes are an extra set of cross overs. Is this better? If I knew how to use the arabic symbols on this keyboard it would be better!

            ---------------------- 1
N-<---<    NCL Plat    Nth to Cab
     \      ---------------------- 2
B---->-<
      /     >--------------------  3
S--<---<   Kippa Plat   Off to KR
              --------------------  4

No it isn't.  It's the same as the one I already mentioned has limitations.

[mufreight]

Try working on the basis of a minimum of four platforms and four tracks as far as Lawnton with a flyover at Petrie to enable services to the MBRL to cross over the NCL without a flat junction.
Be mindful of the fact that it will be many years before there is any track amplification between Petrie and Cabolture.
Sorry to tell you rtt but you have as much idea about the infrastructure needed to opertate rail services as I have of open heart surgery, a hint you might like to look at your ideas  not just 50 m either end of the platform at the location you are considering but perhaps more like 20 km or further each end of the location and the flow on effects.

[BrizCommuter]

Having a flat crossing is hardly crappy

It is crappy when you have 18tph running in one direction, and would want run at least a half-decent service in the opposite direction. If an outbound to Kippa-Ring service is delayed, and delays an inbound service from Caboolture, then every following am peak service would get delayed where they merge before Northgate.

Take a flight to London and observe the flat junctions on London Underground's Sub-Surface Lines. It's very messy!  

Agree not perfect, but everyone has to live within their means. Someone suggested the govt shoudl play with HO trains to learn what to do, how many build fly overs on their train sets to offset a set of points?

But my thinking is this using your example. If a south bound main line is a bit late or a Nth bound kippa, then when the Kippa train gets to Petrie it can wait the 60-90sec (ok a bit longer if freight). It then has only 6 stops until terminus, for which running a few min late is not end of world or impact on other services such as being late into city. At the terminus there is usually a fat make up time for reverse departure. This is not the Singapore MRT with 2min turnaround time. Not ideal, but not end of world either and a good set of cross overs will make the different to what Doomben and Cleveland have no and something alot better.

Regards
Shane

So you are suggesting that it's OK to runs trains late due to mediocre new infrastructure? Maybe you should get a job as an ALP party advisor?

Edit - just to add that the conflicting moves would affect:
Caboolture to Brisbane services - delays would cause knock on delays to following inbound trains at the Northgate merge.
Brisbane to Kippa-Ring services - delays could cause another conflict at Kippa-Ring's scissors crossover and decrease turnaround time.

[somebody]

And to who it may concern, back off on the personal attacks. If you don't like it, don't read it!

Concur.

[BrizCommuter]

@ Brizcommuter, No just the impact of late running is not going to see Citytrain in melt down.

"Brisbane to Kippa-Ring services - delays could cause another conflict at Kippa-Ring's scissors crossover and decrease turnaround time", Bloody oath, even with a 10min timetable this is extremely unlikley and again simple, I would have thought you hold the late running imbound to ensure the outbound is on time, just like Citytrain seems to do now at places like Airport.

In theory, the Kippa-Ring service would be held at the crossovers home signal, but the reality is often different. The slightest of outbound delay from Kippa-Ring will have a knock on effect in the am peak when services merge north of Northgate.

@Mufreight, So the whole expanded 20 year plan for northern line operations will collapse without a flyover at Petrie? Then how will it survive with Shorncliff, Airport and Doomben, the later which has a horrible cross over, then immediately on south side you have equally as bad Cleveland junction and then of course you have Bowen Hills and Roma St for freights and empty train movements, the list goes on. Forget about CRR as a mediation for any of these as it won't exist when KR is open and likely longer. None of these are great, but if you want to build one fly-over, Petrie is the last one you would waste your time with. You obviously failed to read an earlier post where I questioned that the real cross over for KR trains onto the main could actually be much further south, so yes looking further south, but didn't say that was all.

The flat junctions for the Airport and Doomben Lines are on the suburbans which will have segregated operations to the mains that serve the North Coast Line. Thus the pinch points for North Coast services between Caboolture and the CBD will be Petrie, between Virginia and Northgate, and at Mayne.

Anyway, lets have a look at these junctions during expected am peak operations in 2016:
Petrie - 18 crossing 4
Airport Junction - 4 crossing 4
Eagle Junction - 8 crossing 2
It's quite obvious that Petrie is the problem!
By the way, Transport for London just built a grade-seperated junction on the East London Line for 8 crossing 8.

[somebody]

Sydney are building a double flyover at Glenfield for similar numbers of crossings to the East London line.  I think they learned about reducing conflicts between the East Hills-Glenfield project and the Kingsgrove quad, done with the Airport line I believe.

Also, my understanding is that the Lidcombe conflict is to be removed by a new operational methodology made possible with the new turnback. 

Shame about the North Strathfield bound flyover - doesn't remove enough of the conflicts in the area.  Perhaps the CBD enhancement will solve these issues.  Regents Park, Cabramatta, Sutherland, Sydenham will all remain sites of conflicting moves.  And the odd one at Hornsby.  Sydenham will probably be removed when they finally sextup Erskenville-Sydenham.  Not sure if Hurstville-Wolli Creek is conflict free.

[#Metro]

Anyway, lets have a look at these junctions during expected am peak operations in 2016:
Petrie - 18 crossing 4
Airport Junction - 4 crossing 4
Eagle Junction - 8 crossing 2
It's quite obvious that Petrie is the problem!
By the way, Transport for London just built a grade-seperated junction on the East London Line for 8 crossing 8.

What does this mean? I don't understand what this means/terminology/jargon at all? 18 crossing 4 ?

[BrizCommuter]

Anyway, lets have a look at these junctions during expected am peak operations in 2016:
Petrie - 18 crossing 4
Airport Junction - 4 crossing 4
Eagle Junction - 8 crossing 2
It's quite obvious that Petrie is the problem!
By the way, Transport for London just built a grade-seperated junction on the East London Line for 8 crossing 8.

What does this mean? I don't understand what this means/terminology/jargon at all? 18 crossing 4 ?

At flat junctions, there will be x train movements in one direction across the junction, and y movements in the other direction crossing the junction. Thus x crossing y. Non-conflicting moves (i.e those that do not cross another track) are not counted.

[ozbob]

From Couriermail Quest click here!

Moreton Bay Rail Link remains on track

Moreton Bay Rail Link remains on track

    by: Jamie-Leigh Carter, Pine Rivers Press
    From: Quest Newspapers
    January 18, 2012 11:47AM

Moreton Bay Rail Link sceptics have been told to start believing as the first step toward the 12.6km project was taken today.

At 10am on Wednesday, the State Government opened the tender process for two road-over-rail bridges at Kinsellas Rd, Mango Hill, and another connecting Goodfellows and Dohles Rocks roads at Kallangur.

Federal Infrastructure and Transport Minister Anthony Albanese was in North Lakes this morning with State Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk and Moreton Bay Regional Council to reassure residents the project was happening and it would be completed by 2016.

``The Moreton Bay Rail Link, first mooted more than a century ago in 1895, will ultimately stretch 12.6km connecting the Redcliffe peninsula to Petrie via six new stations at Kallangur, Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill (North Lakes), Kinsellas Rd, Rothwell and Kippa-Ring,'' Mr Albanese said.

``The Moreton Bay Rail Link is being built with funding from the Federal Government ($742 million), the State Government ($300 million plus land) and the Moreton Bay Regional Council ($105 million).''

Ms Palaszczuk said construction of the bridges was vital to the smooth delivery of the rail link project and would ensure hazardous level crossings were not created along the route of the new rail line.

The tenders announced today are for the design and construction of the Dohles Rocks Rd realignment, the construction of a new bridge between School Rd and Russell St, a new bridge along Goodfellows Rd.

Goodfellows Rd will also be realigned so it connects with Dohles Rocks Rd at Russell St.

The bridge at Kinsellas Rd East has already been designed and the tender is open for the construction.

Tenders close on Friday, February 3.

Construction of the rail component of the project, including the new stations, is scheduled to start in 2013 for completion by 2016.

[#Metro]

^^^ Accountability means acknowledging your part in things.

Stuff like the busways and rail extensions ARE things the ALP has delivered. Although the frequency to boot might not also be delivered.

Is there a plan for 15 minute service to Kippa Ring too??? (LOL)

[Arnz]

Liked how Courier Mail-Quest used a picture of Beerburrum Station as a "impression" of the Moreton Bay stations..  

[ozbob]

Report on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio (Steve Austin) in response to a listeners query about MBRL.    LNP supports MBRL, funds already allocated.

[mufreight]

Report on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio (Steve Austin) in response to a listeners query about MBRL.    LNP supports MBRL, funds already allocated.

Unfortunately unless CRR is built the MBRL will never be able to be used effectively even IF Newman completes the project.

[#Metro]

Unfortunately unless CRR is built the MBRL will never be able to be used effectively even IF Newman completes the project.

Can you explain how this is the case Mufreight?

[SurfRail]

Report on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio (Steve Austin) in response to a listeners query about MBRL.    LNP supports MBRL, funds already allocated.

Unfortunately unless CRR is built the MBRL will never be able to be used effectively even IF Newman completes the project.

I think the real issue is Trouts Road. 

The existing network can support MBRL - CRR and Trouts Rd will just add value to it by providing more capacity and a faster trip (more direct route and the possibility of permanent expresses which you can't really do with the current set-up).  Even CRR without Trouts Rd doesn't change a lot because you still have to compete for space between Albion and Eagle Junction in particular.

[Fares_Fair]

Report on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio (Steve Austin) in response to a listeners query about MBRL.    LNP supports MBRL, funds already allocated.

Unfortunately unless CRR is built the MBRL will never be able to be used effectively even IF Newman completes the project.

I think the real issue is Trouts Road.  

The existing network can support MBRL - CRR and Trouts Rd will just add value to it by providing more capacity and a faster trip (more direct route and the possibility of permanent expresses which you can't really do with the current set-up).  Even CRR without Trouts Rd doesn't change a lot because you still have to compete for space between Albion and Eagle Junction in particular.

Agree.  

[mufreight]

The provision of a fifth bi-directional running line between the northern end of the old Mayne yard (Albion) and Eagle Junction resolves the capacity problems for the Lawnton to Bowen Hill section at minimum cost with the immediate choke point then becoming Lawnton to Petrie.

[somebody]

The provision of a fifth bi-directional running line between the northern end of the old Mayne yard (Albion) and Eagle Junction resolves the capacity problems for the Lawnton to Bowen Hill section at minimum cost with the immediate choke point then becoming Lawnton to Petrie.

This idea ranks well behind the 5th track near Milton.  In fact, it's hard to see when/why this one is required.  It also needs additional crossovers beyond the airport junction so that the capacity can be used at all, which if not grade separated add a conflicting move.