Redcliffe Peninsula Line [was MBRL (Petrie to Kippa Ring)]

[mufreight]

One could argue that this is the closest we have come to actually seeing the Kippa Ring line come to fruition, in 1994 -6 the then government was purchasing the corridor and had actually carried out some preliminary surveys and design work.
One could argue that that was something more than only promises then do nothing which has been the history of this project for most of the 103 years since it was first promised.

[somebody]

Hopefully it will do more for our services than Salisbury to Kuraby did, and might actually get utilised to improve the system.  I can't say that I've noticed any difference to my local rail service from the S2K upgrade.

I live at Kuraby, and while the shiny new station & high level platforms are nice, the triplication has done  nothing of note for our service frequency, and the all stations actually got about 2 minutes slower in one of the last timetable rewrites.

Despite all this new infrastructure, our off peak service frequency is the same as when I moved to first moved to Runcorn in the 1990s, and the all stations time to the city is 2-3 minutes slower than in those days.

Checking the timetable, it seems that it would have been very tight in peak without the S2K triplication, and probably the Beenleigh trains often couldn't get out of the way of coasties in time (only about a 1 minute gap at Salisbury, by my reckoning).

The triplication wouldn't have been to improve off peak service, but the peak service.  Are you saying that this did not, in fact, occur?

[colinw]

Peak services should have improved for the Gold Coast line (don't know, I don't use them). There certainly was no great change for Beenleigh.

Somewhere at home I have a printed timetable for the Beenleigh line in about 1994 - I should compare it with the current timetable and see what the difference is.

[colinw]

.... and we're off & running.  Early days yet, but some action at last! 

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=71599

I reckon the first day of rail operations to Kippa-Ring in 2016 or so will need to be marked with a big RailBOT get-together / BBQ / party. 

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan

Thursday, September 16, 2010

Survey work to start on $1.15 billion Moreton Bay Rail Link

Survey work on the Moreton Bay Rail link will begin late next month, Transport Minister Rachel Nolan told State Parliament today.

Ms Nolan said the project team for the rail link was now mobilised and from the last week in October there will be workers on the ground carrying out preliminary survey work.

"The Bligh government is doing what no other government has been able to do," Ms Nolan told Parliament today.

"After decades of promises and planning, the Bligh government has worked with the Gillard government and the Moreton Bay Regional Council to make the Moreton Bay rail link reality.

"Last week I discussed it with the Mayor of Moreton Bay, and next week I will meet with the Federal Infrastructure and Transport Minister, and this project will be top of my agenda.

"After decades of inaction, we've got this $1.15 billion project off the ground, we're making it happen, and we're getting on with delivering it through a partnership across three levels of government."

Ms Nolan said Moreton Bay was one of the fastest growing regions in the country with the population set to increase by over 40 per cent in the next 20 years.

"More than half the region's population currently leaves the area every day and 87% use a private vehicle for their journey," Ms Nolan said.

"Preliminary modelling indicates that in 2016, when the Moreton Bay Rail Link opens, it will be used for over 20,000 trips per day.

"This will take pressure off roads like Anzac Avenue, Gympie Road and the Bruce Highway, which means less traffic congestion and fewer carbon emissions."

Ms Nolan said the Moreton Bay Rail Link would slash travel time to the Brisbane CBD for commuters.

"An express train from Kippa-Ring to Brisbane's CBD is expected to take approximately 45 minutes, compared to well over an hour by car in peak-hour traffic," Ms Nolan said.

"We know this is a project the community has been looking forward to for some time and we want to work with the people of Moreton Bay to deliver the best project possible.

"In November we will begin community consultation with a series of open days along the corridor. We want to know the community's views on the project."

Details of these sessions will be available in the coming weeks.

The project team will now continue their work to finalise the design of the project in readiness for a construction start date in 2012 with the first trains to start operations in 2016.

Fast facts about the Moreton Bay Rail Link

·An express train from Kippa-Ring to Brisbane's CBD is expected to take approximately 45 minutes, compared to well over an hour by car in peak-hour traffic.

·More than half the region's population leaves the area every day and 87% use a private vehicle for their journey.

·A new rail link will provide a viable alternative to private vehicle use. Preliminary modelling indicates that in 2016 when the MBRL opens it will be used for over 20,000 trips per day. This will result in a significant decrease in the number of trips per day made by car, and a corresponding reduction in the level of carbon emissions.

·Traffic forecasting suggests the rail link will help reduce traffic congestion along Anzac Avenue, the Bruce Highway, and arterial roads such as Gympie Road and the Gateway Motorway – every full train on the new line will take about 600 cars off the road and reduce carbon emissions.

[O_128]

Ehh until i see construction i wont believe it, so many surveys have been done

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> First steps towards Petrie rail line

[colinw]

Ehh until i see construction i wont believe it, so many surveys have been done

Your caution is understandable, however I think the momentum toward actually building the thing is gathering and will soon be unstoppable.

When I see earthworks I'll be sure.

On the other hand, if it fails to materialise, add me to the list of p*ssed off voters waiting with baseball bat in hand at the next elections, State & Federal.

[#Metro]

"The Bligh government is doing what no other government has been able to do," Ms Nolan told Parliament today.

"After decades of promises and planning, the Bligh government has worked with the Gillard government and the Moreton Bay Regional Council to make the Moreton Bay rail link reality.

So, the Cost-Benefit analysis was wrong?
I'm starting to feel like the Cost-Benefit can be calculated to whatever the people want it to mean!!! First it was urgent with immediate construction, and then it was not urgent with a CBA less than 1, and now it is back...

Love the rail link, not happy at how the CBA seems so lacking in rigour and reproducibility.

[colinw]

Moreton Bay Rail Link preliminary evaluation report, dated July 29.  Click here..

[#Metro]

What is "ATC"??

[ozbob]

Average Total Cost I think.




In table 30 good to see reductions in environmental and accidents costs included.

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan
16/09/2010

Survey work to start on $1.15 billion Moreton Bay Rail Link

Survey work on the Moreton Bay Rail link will begin late next month, Transport Minister Rachel Nolan told State Parliament today.

Ms Nolan said the project team for the rail link was now mobilised and from the last week in October there will be workers on the ground carrying out preliminary survey work.

"The Bligh government is doing what no other government has been able to do," Ms Nolan told Parliament today.

"After decades of promises and planning, the Bligh government has worked with the Gillard government and the Moreton Bay Regional Council to make the Moreton Bay rail link reality.

"Last week I discussed it with the Mayor of Moreton Bay, and next week I will meet with the Federal Infrastructure and Transport Minister, and this project will be top of my agenda.

"After decades of inaction, we've got this $1.15 billion project off the ground, we're making it happen, and we're getting on with delivering it through a partnership across three levels of government."

Ms Nolan said Moreton Bay was one of the fastest growing regions in the country with the population set to increase by over 40 per cent in the next 20 years.

"More than half the region's population currently leaves the area every day and 87% use a private vehicle for their journey," Ms Nolan said.

"Preliminary modelling indicates that in 2016, when the Moreton Bay Rail Link opens, it will be used for over 20,000 trips per day.

"This will take pressure off roads like Anzac Avenue, Gympie Road and the Bruce Highway, which means less traffic congestion and fewer carbon emissions."

Ms Nolan said the Moreton Bay Rail Link would slash travel time to the Brisbane CBD for commuters.

"An express train from Kippa-Ring to Brisbane's CBD is expected to take approximately 45 minutes, compared to well over an hour by car in peak-hour traffic," Ms Nolan said.

"We know this is a project the community has been looking forward to for some time and we want to work with the people of Moreton Bay to deliver the best project possible.

"In November we will begin community consultation with a series of open days along the corridor. We want to know the community's views on the project."

Details of these sessions will be available in the coming weeks.

The project team will now continue their work to finalise the design of the project in readiness for a construction start date in 2012 with the first trains to start operations in 2016.

Fast facts about the Moreton Bay Rail Link

·An express train from Kippa-Ring to Brisbane's CBD is expected to take approximately 45 minutes, compared to well over an hour by car in peak-hour traffic.

·More than half the region's population leaves the area every day and 87% use a private vehicle for their journey.

·A new rail link will provide a viable alternative to private vehicle use. Preliminary modelling indicates that in 2016 when the MBRL opens it will be used for over 20,000 trips per day. This will result in a significant decrease in the number of trips per day made by car, and a corresponding reduction in the level of carbon emissions.

·Traffic forecasting suggests the rail link will help reduce traffic congestion along Anzac Avenue, the Bruce Highway, and arterial roads such as Gympie Road and the Gateway Motorway - every full train on the new line will take about 600 cars off the road and reduce carbon emissions.

==============================================================

[Dean Quick]

I reckon the first day of rail operations to Kippa-Ring in 2016 or so will need to be marked with a big RailBOT get-together / BBQ / party. 

I'm with you colinw!!!

[Stillwater]

So, we are only just sending the surveyors out on the Petrie-Kippa Ring project!

There is an incentive within government to UNDERESTIMATE the cost of a project, partly because public servants want to will it into being.  (The same when you and I convince ourselves we can almost afford that new luxury car.)  Underestimation of the project cost leads to a higher benefit-cost ratio, making it easier to justify, raising its priority in the hierarchy of projects and, thereby, seemingly making it more attractive to fund.  Politicians commit to the funds stated to do the job, invariably to be told later that the cost will be more.  The public hold them to the commitment.  There begins a scramble to reallocate funds from other projects, often pushing works not yet funded further out in the construction agenda -- robbing Peter to pay Paul.  Where another level of government is involved (and especially if it is of a different political persuasion), the call from the state is 'we can't finish this project, or we can only build half of what we promised because the other level of government won't commit to the full cost.'  Or we get a statement like: "The state government today completed the first half of the Petrie to Kippa Ring project, saying it represented the downpayment in its plan to extend the line eventually to Kippa Ring.  I am not resiling from the full project as our objective, the Minister said, even though half has been built in the first stage."  ... Or words along those lines.

Meanwhile, the original and false benefit-cost ratio continues to be used as justification for the project, despite the fact that the costs have escalated since the calculation was first made, making it redundant.

From the state government's own documentation ... some sobering words:

- due to the number of years before construction is expected to begin (on Petrie-Kippa Ring)and the long duration of the implementation phase, there is a risk that prices will increase beyond expected escalation rates (i.e. costs will go up beyond budget).
- there is a risk that the expected patronage levels may not be achieved (benefits go down, resulting in lower BCR)
- there is a risk of constraints within the Brisbane inner city rail capacity delaying or limiting new services along the Moreton Bay Rail Line (i.e. there may be unforseen consequences for the system as a whole).

Also, in talking about growth, commuters etc in the Moreton Bay council area, the Minister's statements no doubt include population expansion and traffic growth outside the Petrie-Kippa Ring corridor (i.e. Caboolture Line).  Therefore, while welcoming the Moreton Bay Line and willing it into being, we need to also hope that government planners have been realistic and dilligent in their costings and assumptions.

[BribieG]

As a former Peninsularite The idea of extending a line to Kippa Ring has always struck me as no real value to anyone living in the lower half of the Peninsula. I did a whole degree at QUT by train whilst living at Clontarf and intimately familiar with the Shorncliffe Line. Look at it this way, you and I both live at Margate for example. You head off to park n ride at Kippa Ring, by the time you get there I'm well on the way to my park n ride at North Boondall and I'm definitely on board and trucking while you are still on your way to Petrie.

So you get to Petrie (and is there any guarantee that there would be direct Central -> Kippa Ring services except peak hour, maybe just a back and forth shuttle forcing you to change at Petrie???) - I'm probably going to be somewhere like Northgate, and by the time you actually get to Northgate I'm walking down the Queen Street Mall. Really doesn't add up for me, the idea of having to do a dog leg to within 20 minutes of Caboolture, for heavens sake, to get to the City. On the other hand a shorter spur to Northlakes and even Rothwell would be well patronised I'm sure.

[Golliwog]

A valid point I'm sure, but you're also making the assumption that everyone who lives on the penisula is travelling to Brisbane to work/study. I'm sure that yes there is probably a large group that do this, but equally I'm sure theres a large group that may work elsewhere, say at Petrie or Caboolture.

[somebody]

As a former Peninsularite The idea of extending a line to Kippa Ring has always struck me as no real value to anyone living in the lower half of the Peninsula.

Yes.  But a number live on the upper half.

[colinw]

As a former Peninsularite The idea of extending a line to Kippa Ring has always struck me as no real value to anyone living in the lower half of the Peninsula.

Yes.  But a number live on the upper half.

Indeed.  This lame "it doesn't go where I want it" argument can be used to object to building any piece of infrastructure.

The fact is that the P-KR line will provide a rail service into one of the most populous parts of SEQ that doesn't yet have rail service.

I live on the southside, and the line will do absolutely nothing for me personally, but I am an enthusiastic supporter of its construction.

[Emmie]

I'm a supporter of the new line too, because the land is already there, and it will connect two major population centres, Redcliffe and Caboolture, which have been amalgamated in a single council, so there's now increased movement between the two areas as well.

But I also have considerable sympathy for BribieG's perspective. Redcliffe is quite a long way north, and it makes sense to spread the load, with many people from the southern end of the peninsula continuing to use the Shorncliffe line, especially now that they've duplicated the bridge (and failed to build the railway line they should have built across at the time - grrr!) 

[BribieG]

That's really the argumet I was making, that a P-KR line would only be serving part of the Redcliffe Area so the usefullness of the line could be diluted. However I do take the point that it would provide a 'transverse' section of the spider web which, at the moment, only caters for 'radial' city -> suburb travel.

[somebody]

That's really the argumet I was making, that a P-KR line would only be serving part of the Redcliffe Area so the usefullness of the line could be diluted. However I do take the point that it would provide a 'transverse' section of the spider web which, at the moment, only caters for 'radial' city -> suburb travel.

I do not really think there is any way a train line is crossing along the Houghton Hwy alignment.

[#Metro]

I do not really think there is any way a train line is crossing along the Houghton Hwy alignment.

It might technically be possible, but AIUI there is a T2 lane on that bridge already, so why not just run frequent feeder buses to Sandgate station and interchange then?

If access from the street to Kippa Ring Rail is required, then put on FUZ buses to feed Kippa Ring Station.

[Golliwog]

I think the feeders to Kippa Ring and to the Shorncliffe line should be the same route, just have a train station at each end. Run it frequently and let the commuters decide which station they need to use. None of this "You live in this part, so you only want to go to this station"

[mufreight]

Thank you Golliwog, a ray of enlightened sunshine and logic in a field thus far submerged in cow pats.

I think the feeders to Kippa Ring and to the Shorncliffe line should be the same route, just have a train station at each end. Run it frequently and let the commuters decide which station they need to use. None of this "You live in this part, so you only want to go to this station"

The logic of your suggestion far outweighs the less than practical or affordable espousals of most on this thread.
Yes the ideal solution would be the construction of a new loop line connecting Kippa Ring with the existing Sandgate line possibly in the vicinity of North Boondal then paralleling the Deagon Deviation the Houghton Highway and Elizabeth Street to connect with the line at Kippa Ring but even this would only be a compromise as such a line while providing a more direct service to Kippa Ring would not service directly Redcliffe, Margate or Woody Point and the costs of the resumptions needed to construct such a line both financially and politically are such that it is doubtful that any Government would contemplate such a line.
This is obviously a Bertie Bus    option which can readily provide both a direct Sandgate to Kippa Ring service and a more indirect service running through Redcliffe Margate and Woody Point acting as a feeder to both rail services.
Again thanks Golliwog for some practical constructive logic.      

[#Metro]

The good thing about the area is the road layout- a grid. Excellent for direct bus services.

[ozbob]

Received this correspondence:

As you are no doubt aware, renewed planning is now underway on the Moreton Bay Rail Link, with public consultation on the draft alignment and environmental assessment starting on 15 November 2010 through to 25 February 2011.

The project involves the construction of 12.6 km of dual-track rail line between Petrie and Kippa-Ring, including six new stations at Kallangur, Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road, Rothwell and Kippa-Ring. The $1.15 billion project is funded by all three levels of government- $742 million from the Australian Government, $300 million (plus land) from the Queensland Government and $105 million from Moreton Bay Regional Council.

We are also hosting community information days at the following dates and locations:

Saturday 20 November, 10am - 3pm at the The Lakes College, North Lakes
Saturday 27 November, 10am - 3pm at the John Oxley Reserve Community Hall, Murrumba Downs
Saturday 4 December, 10am - 3pm at the Redcliffe Library, Redcliffe

More information can be found on our project website - www.tmr.qld.gov.au/moretonbayrail

[colinw]

Huh?  Was the consultation (& possibly some of the assessment) not already done for this line years ago?

I am sure I have heard somewhere that QR actually progressed as far as detailed design on P-KR at least once.

[Golliwog]

Yeah, I've heard that too. And I've seen some of the designs. I think maybe they are re-doing it because the designs I saw was for a multi-modal corridor involving a 4 lanes road with buslanes as well, at least for part of it anyway. I forget whether those designs were dual track for the whole length either, we weren't really shown the full design, just snippets from here and there.

[Jonno]

I know that many think (and I agree) that if we tinker with the route now it puts the project at risk BUT... i cannot help but look at North Lakes Shopping centre and the adjoining colleges/other development and wonder if we are missing an opportunity to place a station adjacent to this commercial district.  Locating the station to the south just encourage people to say it is not close enough to where I want to go and requires a bus transfer. I know frequency can minimie this but it has an impact and should not be the solution for key stations rather more as a cross-town linkages.

[colinw]

Decent feeder bus, or a single station spur line, would fix that.

We shouldn't be afraid of single station spurs to major trip generators.  Japan in particular do it a lot.

[somebody]

Interesting idea with the single station spur.  I'm afraid though.  I'd think that would only work out if there would otherwise be Petrie terminators, which you could just extend.  It's probably not happening as there is no reserved corridor for it.

[Golliwog]

IIRC the Transport department wanted to change the route so that it went via the shopping center instead of the preserved route, but the developers were against it.

[Jonno]

IIRC the Transport department wanted to change the route so that it went via the shopping center instead of the preserved route, but the developers were against it.

Time to rethink that discussion now.  Plenty of car parkng space to put a station.

[Golliwog]

But have houses been built where the corridor would have to run to put the station at the shops?

[colinw]

Looks doable, but more expensive than just building the reserved corridor :-

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.244138,153.019316&z=16&t=h&nmd=20100907

You would have to come off the current corridor somewhere near the houses in Camarsh Drive, then cross Anzac Ave to run on the northern side of Anzac Ave and cross the Bruce hwy on a flyover (?).  Station at the southern end of the shopping centre, then back across Anzac Ave again to rejoin the existing corridor around Halpine Way?

Where is the North Lakes station currently proposed to go - at end of Halpine Way where it meets Freshwater Creek Road?

Google Maps shows the railway already!!!
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-27.247934,153.024938&spn=0.008527,0.022423&z=16

[#Metro]

I think a slight bend to take in North Lakes Westfield might be possible. Some sections might have to be Perth style though.
We build flyovers and flyunders and other grade-separations for busways all the time, so it should be possible for a rail line IMHO.

Average station spacing is about 1.8 kilometers- comments?

Any TOD opportunities?

[#Metro]

IMHO there should also be a short, non-grade separated busway from the station to the Shopping Centre.
The proposed placement of the station is just outside the walking catchment of the nearby shopping centre.
Extending the line to the Shopping Centre would be expensive, so busway might be the solution here.

[somebody]

Average station spacing is about 1.8 kilometers- comments?

Probably not too bad as it is near the far terminus of the line.

[Jonno]

I think a slight bend to take in North Lakes Westfield might be possible. Some sections might have to be Perth style though.
We build flyovers and flyunders and other grade-separations for busways all the time, so it should be possible for a rail line IMHO.

Average station spacing is about 1.8 kilometers- comments?

Any TOD opportunities?

Each station should be a TOD site with the Westfield location being a Mixed Use District Centre.  It was when we worked on the Mango Hill proposal.  It is such a shame to see a Westfield surrounded by car park in the spot.  What a waste.  Put in the station and then demand will force the subdivision of the car parking into commerical and residential sites.

An option culd be to keep it to the southern side of Anzac Avenue as there is not a lot of development along that route till it returns to the current alignment.  Existing alignment could then be sold as infill development sites for the section not used.

[ozbob]

Mayor Sutherland was on 612 ABC Brisbane radio this morning.  A further 10 properties look like being resumed.  Small price for the gain.  It is a pity the media doesn't beat up the residential property resumptions for roads as they do for rail. For example the Darra residents pushed out for the Ipswich Highway car shrine.  All a bit pathetic actually.  I guess we will see the usual hysterical beat ups courtesy of the so called 'balanced media outlets' in our fair town ..