Redcliffe Peninsula Line [was MBRL (Petrie to Kippa Ring)]

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Deputy Premier Jackie Trad says it's impossible to say when Moreton Bay rail line will reopen

ACTING Premier Jackie Trad says it is impossible to say when the Moreton Bay Rail Link will finally reopen following the discovering of major issues with the line's signalling system.

Ms Trad has also distanced herself from the fault, with the line not electrified when she was in charge of the portfolio up until the end of last year.

"When I handed over the Transport Portfolio the line had yet to be electrified," Ms Trad said when asked about the MBRL this morning.

"You can't test the signalling system until the line is electrified. That occurred earlier this year."

Ms Trad said the decision to use a different signalling system to that used in the rest of the network, which was signed off in 2013 under the previous Newman government, was not raised with her after she took office in February 2015.

"That was not raised in the briefings I had in relation to the rollout of the MBRL," Ms Trad said ...

More > http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/deputy-premier-jackie-trad-says-its-impossible-to-say-when-moreton-bay-rail-line-will-reopen/news-story/c55e468baa3ca8e32c73647ba181ca9f

[ozbob]

Queensland!  Beautiful one day, well and truly rooted the next ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Bahahahahahahahahaa.


Ahhhhhhahahahahahaha.


Well. They wanted to leave QR out of the project 

[petey3801]

The trains won't 'fry' if there is a problem with the power supply. There are safeguards against that in both the overhead supply as well as on the trains themselves that will prevent major damage being sustained.

[red dragin]

I heard about the signalling from two different sources.

The second source also mentioned the power issue, and had recently attended the model train show for several days, where I suspect it was a hot topic of discussion.

There is a video of 2x12 cars trains running parallel on the branch through Mango Hill, but speeds where quite low.

The tracks being out of place came from the first source.

[ozbob]

.@jackietrad says she couldn't have known about Moreton Bay Rail Link project's dangerous signalling fault: https://t.co/fPs5RYDE3m #9News

— Nine News Brisbane (@9NewsBrisbane) June 1, 2016

[ozbob]

I heard about the signalling from two different sources.

The second source also mentioned the power issue, and had recently attended the model train show for several days, where I suspect it was a hot topic of discussion.

There is a video of 2x12 cars trains running parallel on the branch through Mango Hill, but speeds where quite low.

The tracks being out of place came from the first source.

The fact they felt the need to run 2 x 12 car sets could indicate not confident ...  or perhaps they were testing signalling ...

I think we might find out tomorrow if there is any reason to be concerned about the power.

It does worry me a little, particularly since QR was not there when the design and construction was done.

I raised the lack of public toilets at stations with Ms Trad early in 2015, and steps were taken to sort that.  The fact that there were none was a sign to me of the cost cutting that went on ...

[ozbob]

The previous administration is at fault here - the Newman Government and his former TMR DG (who got sacked under very odd circumstances) after he and Emerson ' fell out ' ...  they bragged about saving $150 M ....   

[ Brisbanetimes -->  Senior bureaucrat Michael Caltabiano sacked ]

It really annoys me that the NGR trains have been booby-trapped too by those clowns.  Taking a fair bit of work to sort it too. 

[tazzer9]

The trains won't 'fry' if there is a problem with the power supply. There are safeguards against that in both the overhead supply as well as on the trains themselves that will prevent major damage being sustained.

The safeguards aren't perfect. From the supply end who knows if they will actually work if they can't even get the power  through correctly.    From the train end, they are more designed to protect electronics from unwanted voltages, not extreme currents or rapid changes in electrical supply. (phase changes, multiple  unwanted phases)   Many of the on board safeguards are diode based if something bad did happen it will disable train and will be out for a day at a minimum.   Not like a simple fuse.

I expect the real test of the power supply won't be until we hit summer. 

[Arnz]

By what i've been told, it is unlikely that there will be any NGR sets in service this year..

Wow, Not even the waratahs took that long.   Has the government ever considered what would happen if there was a serious act of weather or vandalism that caused the loss of a several units.  Maybe consider bus replacements for the doomben and rosewood line during peak hour when MBRL opens and there are no new trains to run on them.  Maybe use all the ICE's on current peak hour 3 car trains.

Timetable doesn't require any new units though apart from some services going 3-car (the Northgate starters/terminators).

ICEs aren't designed for suburban services (they were originally the Spirit of Capricorn Rockhampton trains prior to the Tilt Train), hence the lower reliability rate and lacks the seating (which is more suited for Intercity services such as Gympie North).  Hence why it's pretty much dedicated to Gympie services only.

[Stillwater]

Interesting to see Ms Trad running from the MBRL woes at a million miles an hour.  Smarter to show unity and solidarity in such circumstances, not have Ministers (and Acting Premier at that) letting Hinchliffe hang out to dry.  This problem will require $$$ to fix and state government should wear the cost.  Not too late to make a hasty adjustment to the state budget.  The shoe is on the other foot ... we should all be donning red lip gloss and shouting SHOW US THE MONEY, JACKIE!

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Jackie Trad rejects Queensland rail blunder blame

Queensland's deputy premier says she could not have known about a major rail project's dangerous signalling fault when she was in charge of it.

Jackie Trad, who was also the state's transport minister until December last year, said only recent testing picked up the signalling flaw in the $988 million Moreton Bay Rail Link project.

A faulty signalling system will lead to a costly blowout and delayed opening for the Moreton Bay rail line to Brisbane. 7 News Queensland

"When I handed over the transport portfolio, the line had yet to be electrified," Ms Trad said on Wednesday.

"You can't test the signalling system until the line is electrified."

The flaw, which meant the signalling system couldn't keep up with peak rail traffic and could have caused crashes, has caused the project to be delayed while Queensland Rail addresses the issue.

An independent audit investigation is also underway to find out what went wrong.

The project was supposed to open in mid-2016.

Ms Trad, who is currently acting as premier while Annastacia Palaszczuk is on a US trade mission, said Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe did the right thing by ordering the investigation.

She also said she had confidence "without doubt" in transport director-general Neil Scales.

Ms Trad said it was not raised with her in briefings that the signalling system installed for the project was different to the rest of southeast Queensland's rail network.

[tazzer9]

Timetable doesn't require any new units though apart from some services going 3-car (the Northgate starters/terminators).

Of course you don't need new units if you just sacrifice 6 car services on other lines.
The northgate starter/terminators are in addition to the current timetable.  The units used there won't be recovered from the units gained from the trains skipping northgate-bowen hills on the kippa-ring/caboolture/sunny coast tracks.
The new services on kippa ring will be taking out a few.

There is probably going to be small improvements to the ipswich/springfield lines which will cost some  unless they somehow find an more efficient way of using trains during peak.
My short term solution is have the rosewood shuttle in peak be replaced with 2000 class railcars.  That frees up 1 unit to be used on the ferny grove line.

In the end, the lack of 6 car services in peak will drive people away from using PT. 

[ozbob]

Too many passengers on the Rosewood line these days for 2000 rail motors, even if we had enough.

I don't see why Rosewood should be whacked, and in any case a number of peak services that run through to Brisbane originate at Rosewood.

It has always be planned to start the new timetables with the existing fleet.  Not a big deal. 

[Derwan]

Many are saying that if QR was involved from the start, this wouldn't have happened.  I guess this raises two important questions:

• If QR had been involved from the start, would they have chosen the Ansaldo STS MacroLock signalling system?
• If so, would they have identified the potential issues prior to the system being switched on and tested?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Many are saying that if QR was involved from the start, this wouldn't have happened.  I guess this raises two important questions:

• If QR had been involved from the start, would they have chosen the Ansaldo STS MacroLock signalling system?
• If so, would they have identified the potential issues prior to the system being switched on and tested?

Going by the past history over the last 15 years the answer to number one is a big no. That then leads to number two being addressed.

[ozbob]

Many are saying that if QR was involved from the start, this wouldn't have happened.  I guess this raises two important questions:

• If QR had been involved from the start, would they have chosen the Ansaldo STS MacroLock signalling system?
• If so, would they have identified the potential issues prior to the system being switched on and tested?

Probably not because all the recent expertise and experience (which had gone well) was with the present system. 

Eg. Caboolture to Beerburrum, Corinda to Darra, Darra to Richlands, Richlands to Springfield Central, and of course numerous upgrades around the system.

I think the signal system selection reflects cost containment politics by a former DG and a lack of expertise once QR shunted.

Remember around the time Emerson thought the Cleveland Solution was the go too!   

[red dragin]

Timetable doesn't require any new units though apart from some services going 3-car (the Northgate starters/terminators).

Of course you don't need new units if you just sacrifice 6 car services on other lines.
The northgate starter/terminators are in addition to the current timetable.  The units used there won't be recovered from the units gained from the trains skipping northgate-bowen hills on the kippa-ring/caboolture/sunny coast tracks.
The new services on kippa ring will be taking out a few.

There is probably going to be small improvements to the ipswich/springfield lines which will cost some  unless they somehow find an more efficient way of using trains during peak.
My short term solution is have the rosewood shuttle in peak be replaced with 2000 class railcars.  That frees up 1 unit to be used on the ferny grove line.

In the end, the lack of 6 car services in peak will drive people away from using PT.

Someone explained that the new timetable eliminates the rolling stabling yard that occurs in the counter peak direction which frees up trains. I couldn't comprehend how it works exactly but I believe them.

[tazzer9]

The new stabling yard at kippa ring does partially help in efficiency of units in peak, but its really just reduces empty running early in the morning. 
I also wish they would also extend the Springfield line 200m just so they can stable two units and it would have the same positive effect for the rolling stabling yard that occurs on the western line..

[Stillwater]

The State Government has placed the Department of Transport and Main Roads (not QR) in charge as the preferred agency for delivering the Landsborough-Nambour rail line upgrade.  The potential costs have been stripped out of this project, with duplication not now proposed, in favour of 'upgrade' (realignment and passing loops).

http://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/assessments-and-approvals/landsborough-to-nambour-railway.html

[HappyTrainGuy]

The new stabling yard at kippa ring does partially help in efficiency of units in peak, but its really just reduces empty running early in the morning. 
I also wish they would also extend the Springfield line 200m just so they can stable two units and it would have the same positive effect for the rolling stabling yard that occurs on the western line..

You are forgetting the trains that currently use Petrie-Zillmere/Geebung as a temporary stabling yard for before doing their morning peak run. Remember in morning peak hour trains currently wrong road from caboolture thru Petrie while the island platform has 2 trains waiting to form Petrie-Roma Street services. Which also I might add is the reason why there are no direct Roma Street-Nambour services in the morning. There's no way to get a train through when the next 4 signals have 4 out of service trains waiting.

[Stillwater]

It is absolutely extraordinary that the Acting Premier, Ms Trad, should say she has no idea when the signalling problem on the MBRL will be fixed.  A billion dollar investment lies idle, useless.  And the state leader (acting) has no clue, has not been briefed on a way forward?    It shows a department (TMR) in freefall, unable to get a handle on the issues ... and a pass-the-parcel mentality between TMR and QR.  Ms Trad and Mr Hinchliffe should call a joint media conference and spell out the steps to be taken - at the very least. Saying 'I don't know' is unforgivable.  Mr Hinchliffe has said he will appoint an independent investigator to find out what went wrong, but that is separate from assembling a team to fix the problem (which I assume has happened).  A timetable should be set, then you pull in whatever resources needed (including from the private sector) to ensure the deadline is met.  That is what leaders, albeit acting, do.

[trail]

So I've heard that two of the current issues are:

* overhead supply can only supply enough power for two trains on the branch at once (11kv supply instead of the usual 33kv - there is no Energex 33kv on the peninsula)
* signalling can only handle one train in each direction, and still doesn't work with the rest of the network.

Anyone heard similar?

About the first point. If you look on Google Earth where the feeder stations are for this project, there is one at Rothwell station. Right next to this is an Energex sub which looks to have a 110/132kV feed. So you are kinda right, there is no 33kV on the peninsula, but this feeder station is barely on the peninsula.

[red dragin]

So I've heard that two of the current issues are:

* overhead supply can only supply enough power for two trains on the branch at once (11kv supply instead of the usual 33kv - there is no Energex 33kv on the peninsula)
* signalling can only handle one train in each direction, and still doesn't work with the rest of the network.

Anyone heard similar?

About the first point. If you look on Google Earth where the feeder stations are for this project, there is one at Rothwell station. Right next to this is an Energex sub which looks to have a 110/132kV feed. So you are kinda right, there is no 33kV on the peninsula, but this feeder station is barely on the peninsula.

Just going by what the person you could call if you wanted say, power for a railway line,  told me. 

[ozbob]

So I've heard that two of the current issues are:

* overhead supply can only supply enough power for two trains on the branch at once (11kv supply instead of the usual 33kv - there is no Energex 33kv on the peninsula)
* signalling can only handle one train in each direction, and still doesn't work with the rest of the network.

Anyone heard similar?

About the first point. If you look on Google Earth where the feeder stations are for this project, there is one at Rothwell station. Right next to this is an Energex sub which looks to have a 110/132kV feed. So you are kinda right, there is no 33kV on the peninsula, but this feeder station is barely on the peninsula.

Is that correct 110/132 kV ?

I checked seems correct ie. 110/132kV.

The issues appears to be only 11kV distribution substations, no 33kV.

[ozbob]

Rail uses 25kV, so there is a step up from 11kV - this is less efficient than say step down from 33kV to 25kV.

It it is worth noting again that the Ipswich/Rosewood issues were effectively only solved when the 33kV feed at Karrabin was done

[Stillwater]

Mr Hinchliffe is to be commended for his public disclosure re the MBRL.  It is the appropriate thing to do when there is a stuff-up of this kind.  Mr Hinchliffe on Monday said: "To determine what's gone wrong, I will be appointing an investigator to undertake an independent audit into the project"  – how the signalling system was selected and the costs associated with it.  The audit should also come up with a fix.

That is in regard to the signalling system.  If, as people seem to be suggesting here, there are issues with the powering of the line, who will investigate those?  Another investigator?  What seems to be needed is a project-wide audit.  And that may not be a job for one person, but a panel of maybe three, each with complementary skill sets – a top-notch project administrator/engineer, a signals expert and a senior public servant, possibly from another state, but certainly from not within TMR.  Maybe someone from the rail safety section of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau.

But that is only half the job.  Quite apart from the woes of this project specifically, a further and separate investigation is required into the culture within TMR that relegates QR to being a subsidiary player on a major RAIL project.  Is there too much of a 'roads culture' in the upper echelons of TMR? People down the chain, on the rail side of things, knew of the problems long before they were made public.  Why did the culture within the organisation not allow these people to provide their input earlier, and do so feeling comfortable that they were not 'ratting', but bringing to light serious safety concerns? These would appear to be ongoing.

We know also that Translink has been reigned in under the TMR structure, and neutered.  The culture and systemic organisation issues need closer scrutiny separate from the MBRL fiasco and other emerging problems having to do with it.

[tazzer9]

I don't believe a government appointed investigation is needed for the power issues.  Its a stuff up, but its something that just needs to be fixed, not a witch hunt to find out whjo is to blame.   
The investigation for the signalling system is needed as its a major critical safety component.  There are no excuses for a signalling stuff up.  Something going wrong here is highly likely to cause death and serious injury.

[mufreight]

It would seem that in light of this sadly failed experiment in cost cutting by the previous government that there should be a return to the old proven effective system of there being a Queensland Railways entirely independent of any other department that is then entirely responsible for all rail related matters and directly accountable to a Railways Minister.
If that were to be the case with QR having its own construction branch while the initial cost may have been slightly higher there is no doubt that we would not be seeing the present failure due to a considerable extent to the incompetence and lack of oversight by TMR as a consequence of excluding QR from the construction team so that the contract could be awarded to the "mates" of the then government.
There should be a full inquiry into the awarding of the contract and the actual project and those responsible should be held financially responsible for rectifying this flawed system with a further financial penalty for the delay in bringing this line into service. 

[Stillwater]

We should not overlook the fact that Transport and Main Roads is split between two ministers.  It is never a good fit when one department has two ministers (masters).  Maybe one of the problems with the MBRL fiasco is the administrative structure of government itself.  The answer would be a reshuffle of portfolio responsibilities, perhaps along these lines:

Jackie Trad - Minister for Trade and Investment and Minister for State Development
Stirling Hinchliffe - Leader of the House, Minister for Commonwealth Games, Minister for Transport Main Roads, Safety and Ports
Dr Lyneham - Minister for Natural Resources and Mines, Energy, Biofuels and Water Supply
Mark Bailey - Minister for QR/TransLink, Non-Motorised Transport, Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning (Dept. of Urban and Regional Planning, Infrastructure and Local Government).

Let Transport and Main Roads sit alone, responsible for major road projects, bridges, potholes, vehicle regos, school bus administration and all things cars and trucks (truck regulations, driving hours, innovative signalling etc. BUT remove QR, TransLink/Q-Connect, and active transport (bicycles and walking) and placing those functions with Infrastructure, Planning and Local Government.  The department may need a new name ... Department of Urban and Regional Planning, Infrastructure and Local Government.

When you think about it, the public will be looking for a substantial response from government.  Stripping TMR of some of its function would be an appropriate censure, and will allow them to get on with what they do best.

Things such as railway stations, railway lines, bicycle paths to stations and in railway corridors, TODs around transit nodes, 'place-making', 'people places' where trains, light rail, plazas and shopping centres all come together and rightly belong in that part of the state bureaucracy where urban planning takes place and where liaison occurs with local councils.

Putting BCC to one side, I know of several councils that say TMR is a 'law unto itself'.  Local councils have a relationship to the state government through the Planning and Local Government portfolio.  this may be a better fit for QR, where QR operatives would find like-minded thinkers.  Regional councils would be able to 'plug in' at a state level with the state agency they are used to when it comes to rail station access, redevelopment (Toowoomba, Rockhampton and so on).

The above reshuffle would give Jackie Trad strategic overview of key areas of Trade and Investment and State Development, which seem to go together, while Energy, Biofuels and Water Supply seem a better fit with Natural Resources.

[Derwan]

Let Transport and Main Roads sit alone, responsible for major road projects, bridges, potholes, vehicle regos, school bus administration and all things cars and trucks (truck regulations, driving hours, innovative signalling etc. BUT remove QR, TransLink/Q-Connect, and active transport (bicycles and walking) and placing those functions with Infrastructure, Planning and Local Government.  The department may need a new name ... Department of Urban and Regional Planning, Infrastructure and Local Government.

The thing is that we DO need an integrated approach when it comes to road and rail infrastructure (and public/private transport).  We need to look at transport as whole - rather than distinct and disparate forms of transport and infrastructure requirements.  In that respect it's a good idea to have one overarching administration.  The problem is that all key players need to be involved - and when it comes to the actual building of the infrastructure, there needs to be even more involvement/participation.

There were some good things that came out of the coordinated approach to MBRL - such as the road improvements that have occurred as part of the project.  However, things such as the laying of the tracks and installing the OH's and signalling system should have been lead by QR.

Another example is the major development between Caboolture and the Sunshine Coast.  Rather than just looking at road infrastructure, there needs to be that coordinated approach that looks at road, rail and public transport requirements.  Could we need a rail line one day?  If so, preserve the corridor now.  Will buses be able to negotiate the streets?  Where will they need to go (e.g. current/future rail line)?  Do we (or will we in the future) need dedicated lanes/corridors for buses?  Unfortunately we've always had a haphazard approach when it comes to transport infrastructure that results major pain down the track when we try to fix it.

[tazzer9]

The road improvements have been some of the biggest disasters of the project.   Many of the road works still aren't finished.   Dholes rocks road upgrade might be finished sometime next year. 

[SurfRail]

I think one of our bigger problems is that we still have a concept of "Main Roads" to begin with.  If you have an entire bureaucracy devoted to roads, what do you expect would happen?

[tazzer9]

I think one of our bigger problems is that we still have a concept of "Main Roads" to begin with.  If you have an entire bureaucracy devoted to roads, what do you expect would happen?

What's even worse is that there aren't many roads that are even under the state governments control.  Most are either the federal government or local councils responsibility.

[Derwan]

The road improvements have been some of the biggest disasters of the project.   Many of the road works still aren't finished.   Dholes rocks road upgrade might be finished sometime next year.

My comment related to the fact that they're being done in conjunction with the rail project - not how well they're going - which sounds about as well as the signalling system.

[ozbob]

Been advised that there is dedicated 33KV feed to the branch - that's a relief 

[Stillwater]

Five years ago, absolutely, Main Roads and Transport, would belong together, but the caravan has moved on.  Society is pumping for 'clever cities', 'smart cities', TOD's, integrated light rail, blocks of units, malls, parks, gardens, transit hubs, shopping centres over railway stations etc.  The 'Main Roads' thinking says the solution is a freeway, or a traffic tunnel when much smarter solutions are required.  The more sensitive thinking about future-proofing our cities is across town where urban warrior bureaucrats sit, liaising with local councils, looking at integrated planning, urban design etc.  QR should go join them.  Main Roads thinking is engineering focussed, dealing with manipulating bitumen, steel, concrete and reinforcing rods.  On MBRL, its gung-ho thinking was that 'we can do better' and 'let's slap up an engineering marvel and have the QR boys and girls come along and deal with the operational stuff afterwards'.  Ironically, the Director-General comes from a rail public transport background, but his senior management team probably is top heavy with road people, and he would have been spending the past 12 months (1) fighting to keep his job during the D-G job review process and (2) getting his head around roads and stuff to do with roads, less focussed on the rail side of things.  Internal corporate culture should be addressed at the same time as practical solutions are found for the MBRL signalling, power and, now, roads connectivity mess.

[red dragin]

Been advised that there is dedicated 33KV feed to the branch - that's a relief 

Someone must have caved in and paid for it.

[tazzer9]

How many months will it take for the new 33KV line to be installed?

[nathandavid88]

^^ I'm assuming it already has been installed.