Article: Three consortia shortlisted for Ottawa light rail project

[colinw]

Railway Gazette International -> click here

25 October 2011

CANADA: The City of Ottawa and Infrastructure Ontario announced the three bidders shortlisted for the C$2·1bn Ottawa Light Rail Transit project on October 21.

• Ottawa Transit Partners: Vinci, Acciona, Bombardier Transportation, Aecon Construction;
• Rideau Transit Group: ACS Infrastructure Canada, SNC-Lavalin, Dragados Canada, EllisDon, Veolia Transportation Services;
• Rideau Transit Partners: Bouygues Travaux Publics, Brookfield Financial, Fiera Axium Infrastructure Canada, Parsons Enterprises, Parsons Canada, Colas Rail.

The winner will design, build, finance and maintain a 12·5 km light rail line along the existing bus rapid transit corridor from Tunney's Pasture to Blair Road, with 13 stops and a 3·2 km tunnel under the city centre.

A request for proposals will be issued later this year, with fixed-price bids to be submitted by July 2012. The winning bidder will be selected in late 2012 for work to begin in the first quarter of 2013. Revenue service is scheduled for 2018.

A previous light rail scheme was cancelled in 2006 after a change in the composition of the city council, with Siemens being awarded a C$36·7m settlement as leader of the consortium which had been named preferred bidder. Siemens is not participating this time round, but a spokesman said the company still hopes to supply rolling stock if one of the Rideau consortia wins.

[SurfRail]

Scope sounds very similar to ours, albeit with a big tunnel instead of reserve running and left-in left-out traffic managements.

What are the rough parameters for what they are planning (headways, vehicle length etc)?

[colinw]

Project website: http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/

I LOVE this graphic from their site:


Looks like they are counting on a capacity of 25,000 people per direction, per hour.

Can't find anything about length of vehicles or service frequency, but to carry 25K/hour on each track implies relatively long vehicles quite frequently.

[SurfRail]

Project website: http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/

I LOVE this graphic from their site:


Looks like they are counting on a capacity of 25,000 people per direction, per hour.

Can't find anything about length of vehicles or service frequency, but to carry 25K/hour on each track implies relatively long vehicles quite frequently.

With enough vehicles, GCRT could notionally get up to 18,000 (1 tram per minute, 300 pax), which will not be possible for decades anyway.  Theirs sounds very ambitious - presumably much longer consists.

[colinw]

Given that this is LRT conversion/replacement of an existing busway, I think they have an existing high passenger volume to accomodate. I'd say this project will have to be at the upper end of light rail, bordering on being a small metro.

Their existing dinky diesel LRT system, built for a piddling C$21 million on a lightly used freight line, already manages to carry as many passengers in a day as any normal Brisbane rail line - 12,000 per day. I'd love to see something like it done in Cairns & Townsville, or even through the centre of Toowoomba out to Drayton and the Uni of Southern QLD.

[somebody]

So what effect will this have on buses running through the CBD?

I think they are saying about 10k-20k pph depending on what the average load of their bendy buses are.

[#Metro]

Given that this is LRT conversion/replacement of an existing busway, I think they have an existing high passenger volume to accomodate. I'd say this project will have to be at the upper end of light rail, bordering on being a small metro.

It is about the same as Brisbane... 10 000 pphd I think

[Golliwog]

Given that this is LRT conversion/replacement of an existing busway, I think they have an existing high passenger volume to accomodate. I'd say this project will have to be at the upper end of light rail, bordering on being a small metro.

It is about the same as Brisbane... 10 000 pphd I think

IIRC from my lecture on Friday, Brisbane's busway is close to or at 20,000 pphd during peak? I'll go relisten to it online later tonight and check.

[somebody]

Well it's about 350 buses/hour at the most congested point, so that means an average of about 57 per bus.  Seems plausible.

It is surely less busy in the PM.

[Golliwog]

Ok, re listened to the lecture online. Our guest lecturer stated that we're currently over 16,000pphd on the busway. What I got mixed up was his statement that if you give a busway and a LRT system the same treatment with respect to right of way they can achieve identical capacities. To quote him directly "If you provide the same level of priority, that means traffic priority or having its own corridor like the busway, Light rail and buses score exactly the same capacity, expect buses are about a fifth of the cost to provide. So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get. You could have replaced the entire SEQ bus fleet for the same price as the light rail system."

Current figures have the max LRT (and therefore busway) capacity up at around 20,000 and he does point out that even those figures are changing as technology advances.

[SurfRail]

Ok, re listened to the lecture online. Our guest lecturer stated that we're currently over 16,000pphd on the busway. What I got mixed up was his statement that if you give a busway and a LRT system the same treatment with respect to right of way they can achieve identical capacities. To quote him directly "If you provide the same level of priority, that means traffic priority or having its own corridor like the busway, Light rail and buses score exactly the same capacity, expect buses are about a fifth of the cost to provide. So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get. You could have replaced the entire SEQ bus fleet for the same price as the light rail system."

Current figures have the max LRT (and therefore busway) capacity up at around 20,000 and he does point out that even those figures are changing as technology advances.

His figures are way wrong.  There is no BRT system in this country with op-ex or cap-ex significantly cheaper than light rail.

[Golliwog]

I was aware he also had a bit of a bias being from MRCagney who are transport consultants that were involved with the original SE Busway. Not sure what he was basing his figures on.

[#Metro]

So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get. You could have replaced the entire SEQ bus fleet for the same price as the light rail system

What garbage! The capital costs per km of the GC LRT system are cheaper than ANY section of busway ever constructed in Queensland.
Secondly, a BRT system would not get the ultimate capacity of the LRT system in that corridor without grade separation (and grade separation is unacceptable in that corridor).

And if you want to have really really high volume-- get a metro?! Its not LRT but who cares!?!

[O_128]

So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get. You could have replaced the entire SEQ bus fleet for the same price as the light rail system

What garbage! The capital costs per km of the GC LRT system are cheaper than ANY section of busway ever constructed in Queensland.
Secondly, a BRT system would not get the ultimate capacity of the LRT system in that corridor without grade separation (and grade separation is unacceptable in that corridor).

And if you want to have really really high volume-- get a metro?! Its not LRT but who cares!?!

Agreed 1 billion for 13km of track is impressive look at the eastern busway. Considering the LRT involves massive roadworks, new bridges, stations we are getting bang for buck.

[#Metro]

The problem with the presentation of BRT is that it is a mish mash / montage that makes you think:

1. You can have high capacity just like Bogota
2. For next to no cost without roadworks etc like BUZ on the street

The general rule of thumb is this: Costs and capacity scale with the class of right of way, irrespective of mode

Class C is for crapola capacity, cost reduction and congestion
Class B is for better capacity, bigger costs and better service
Class A is for the highest capacity, highest costs and best service

[Golliwog]

So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get. You could have replaced the entire SEQ bus fleet for the same price as the light rail system

What garbage! The capital costs per km of the GC LRT system are cheaper than ANY section of busway ever constructed in Queensland.
Secondly, a BRT system would not get the ultimate capacity of the LRT system in that corridor without grade separation (and grade separation is unacceptable in that corridor).

And if you want to have really really high volume-- get a metro?! Its not LRT but who cares!?!

So you're ignoring the other part of the quote where he pointed out that if you afford each system (BRT or LRT) the same degree of grade seperation, you can achieve the same capacity?

Also, not entirely sure if comparing LRT on the GC with buway in Brisbane is a valid comparison. Also, doing a simple Capital Cost/km calculation is BS. It misses differences in terms of extra infrastructure provided that has nothing to do with the PT itself, land costs, structures (tunnels/bridges), stations and others.

[ozbob]

So you're ignoring the other part of the quote where he pointed out that if you afford each system (BRT or LRT) the same degree of grade seperation, you can achieve the same capacity?

Not so, light rail can easily be scaled up to 5 6 cars etc.  There is a physical limit to bus in terms of numbers, even when bi artics used. 

It is a sobering thought to remember that the relatively small Brisbane tram network was carrying more passenger trips at its peak than the entire bus and rail network today. 

[Golliwog]

The limit for buses are you tlaking in terms of numbers of buses per hour, or people per bus?

His main point for that was that while light rail can carry many more people per vehicle, its very limited in terms of overtaking and so has a lower max frequency. Buses on the other hand can easily overtake at stations if theres no passengers wanting to get on/off one bus but are there for another route, so you can put many more buses through per hour. That was his explanation for where the extra capacity for buses came from.

[#Metro]

So you're ignoring the other part of the quote where he pointed out that if you afford each system (BRT or LRT) the same degree of grade seperation, you can achieve the same capacity?

Also, not entirely sure if comparing LRT on the GC with buway in Brisbane is a valid comparison. Also, doing a simple Capital Cost/km calculation is BS. It misses differences in terms of extra infrastructure provided that has nothing to do with the PT itself, land costs, structures (tunnels/bridges), stations and others.

If you want to have a purely theoretical comparison that doesn't and cannot exist in the real world, as this guest lecturer thinks out aloud (i.e. implying a Gold Coast Class A busway) then its not helpful.

Car rapid transit (CRT) can carry 40 000 pphd, equal to a metro if you want it to, just build it with 20 lanes in either direction and voila!

As I said earlier: Costs and capacity scale with the CLASS of ROW, and not as much with the actual vehicle used. LRT can be scaled up, but at that point you may as well install a metro.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/401_Basketweave_Crop.jpg

[Golliwog]

No, he wasn't implying a Class A ROW busway on the GC. As his quote says, the same ROW as what they're building the light rail with.

I would but the lecture up but it's over 100mB for the decent quality version and I'm fairly sure there's potential copy right issues.

[somebody]

There is a physical limit to bus in terms of numbers, even when bi artics used. 

While bus can handle lower capacity per vehicle, a higher number of vehicles is able to be used.  bi-artics aren't really the solution IMO.  If you have that many people on a given run, then rail modes would generally come out better.

[SurfRail]

No, he wasn't implying a Class A ROW busway on the GC. As his quote says, the same ROW as what they're building the light rail with.

I would but the lecture up but it's over 100mB for the decent quality version and I'm fairly sure there's potential copy right issues.

TransLink established reasonably early on that BRT wasn't going to work as well, with vehicles bunching up, double-heading needed, higher operating costs to pay the drivers/mechanics/fuel bills and comparable outlay to building the light rail right of way anyway (including it taking up more road space than tracks would).  Why even bother compromising?

[#Metro]

If you provide the same level of priority, that means traffic priority or having its own corridor like the busway, Light rail and buses score exactly the same capacity, expect buses are about a fifth of the cost to provide. So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get.

He IS implying that bus would have been a better option. Bus could handle the load but only up to 2016 or something like that. Beyond that you need grade separation, something unacceptable in that corridor.

[Golliwog]

If you provide the same level of priority, that means traffic priority or having its own corridor like the busway, Light rail and buses score exactly the same capacity, expect buses are about a fifth of the cost to provide. So, if I ever sound negative about the Gold Coast Light Rail, it's not because it won't be a good light rail system, it's just really expensive for what you're going to get.

He IS implying that bus would have been a better option. Bus could handle the load but only up to 2016 or something like that. Beyond that you need grade separation, something unacceptable in that corridor.

I expect it all depends on how you model it, what assumptions you make, as well as how much detail you go down to. I also expect from the way he talked about it, he may have only been comparing capex and not operating costs. I'm only quoting him, I don't know the details.

Where are you getting the 2016 bus date from?

[#Metro]

It was in one of the GCLRT reports

The problem with selling of BRT is selective quoting. People think you can get something like bogota happening here on a shoestring.

Not going to happen.

[SurfRail]

It was in one of the GCLRT reports

The problem with selling of BRT is selective quoting. People think you can get something like bogota happening here on a shoestring.

Not going to happen.

Bogota is more or less the only bus system that works as well as it does - with a developing country's wages and working conditions.  Out here, there would be no cost advantage in using buses for those volumes (45,000 pphd I believe).  Their system looks nothing like the SEB though, and certainly couldn't be done on the Coast without ripping out a LOT more land.

[somebody]

It was in one of the GCLRT reports

The problem with selling of BRT is selective quoting. People think you can get something like bogota happening here on a shoestring.

Not going to happen.

Bogota is more or less the only bus system that works as well as it does - with a developing country's wages and working conditions.  Out here, there would be no cost advantage in using buses for those volumes (45,000 pphd I believe).  Their system looks nothing like the SEB though, and certainly couldn't be done on the Coast without ripping out a LOT more land.

I would say the Bogota TransMilenio system is one of clearly mode unfit for purpose.  If you are running on a busway and fanning out that would be one thing, but in Bogota they have a defined route for the express busway services and feeders.