Queensland Parliament - Hansard. items of interest

[O_128]

It must be an interim stage 'though. If I don't get my 4TPH base service within the next 10 or so years, I'm going to have a toddler tantrum.  

I am starting to wonder if the culture of rail in this state is terminally broken, and that is the real reason why Governments have opted to ignore rail and build a parallel busway system.

The fact that I haven't gotten 15 min in the last 10 years is why I'm having my tantrum.

Ive spoken to a lot of planners recently and few who were in gov in the early 90s. The reason for the busway was due to the fact that CRR would have been needed in 2002 as it would have been impossible to hook up the EMP line and give it a reasonable frequency. LRT was ignored as no one wanted to commit to another victoria bridge. What is confusing people is why they are still so determined with busways.

[somebody]

The only variation in the present express pattern would be to include Toowong.  I think they could do that now, and still run the same times.

At Springfield on Sunday I was give a summary of points, one of these included the proposed train frequency. !5 minutes at peak, 30 minutes off peak. Clearly there is no intent to do anything with frequency at present.

Whether or not this changes during the forthcoming election campaign would be interesting.  

A change from 15 minute to 20 minute for the few stations that have 15 minute frequency now is inconsequential when one considers the huge gains for the rest of the system to move to a 20 minute pulse.  

Do nothing, and we are stuck with the abysmal frequency for many more years.  Time to realistically examine incremental options.  I have had enough of 15 minutes yelps which clearly the authorities have no intention of moving with.  Now 20 minutes, is a different thing. Hard to defend not doing that ....

I'm disappointed by this.  While we have put forward a plan for 4tph Richlands + 2tph Ipswich express, I must say that I never felt your heart was in it if I may say so.  It's impossible to defend 2tph @ Petrie and Strathpine, but that is what we have.

4. Is 3TPH to Cleveland achievable without infrastructure changes?  I'd hate to see 3TPH to Manly or Lota and Cleveland get shafted with a train every 40 minutes.

It's exceedingly tight.  18 minutes O/B Manly-Cleveland and 21 minutes I/B Cleveland-Manly.  So a 20 minute Cleveland timetable could not be reliable on current infrastructure.  Duplicating Manly-Lota would change things though.

Similarly on the Beenleigh Line, a 20 minute interval would impact on the Gold Coast trains.  Are the latter going to run at 20 or 40 minute frequencies?  If the former, that would only be achievable on david's plan, which doesn't allow for freight and has a negative impact on reliability.  With appropriate crossovers for such a service, it may be possible.

So, with a few infrastructure upgrades, such a plan may be achievable, I guess.  20 minutes Gold Coast would be a superb service (although needs to be sped up).

What is confusing people is why they are still so determined with busways.

I think this is because of the culture within QR.  It is also the reason why I consider Michael Costa a good transport minister.  Cityrail were and still are an embarrassment to Sydney.  Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but it's what I think.

[ozbob]

I think we are all disappointed.  But it is time to rethink strategies.  Clearly 4 tph Richlands and ultimately Springfield is not in their thinking at present.   This has finally convinced me it is time to move on with a new approach.  Seeing it written down like that (the proposed Springfield frequencies) has just confirmed what I already suspected strongly. 

There is a political wild card of course, but based on the past 10 years I am not very confident that they can grasp the need.

Compromise with many things in life is needed. 

[SurfRail]

I think this is because of the culture within QR.  It is also the reason why I consider Michael Costa a good transport minister.  Cityrail were and still are an embarrassment to Sydney.  Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but it's what I think.

Alannah McTiernan was a good transport minister - Michael Costa was the ministerial equivalent of cyanide!

[somebody]

I think this is because of the culture within QR.  It is also the reason why I consider Michael Costa a good transport minister.  Cityrail were and still are an embarrassment to Sydney.  Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but it's what I think.

Alannah McTiernan was a good transport minister - Michael Costa was the ministerial equivalent of cyanide!

The bus improvements in the NW were largely down to Costa weren't they?  Frankly, I have about the same respect for Cityrail as Costa did, and QR are only arguably better.

[SurfRail]

The bus improvements in the NW were largely down to Costa weren't they?  Frankly, I have about the same respect for Cityrail as Costa did, and QR are only arguably better.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/how-costa-drove-transport-off-the-rails/2008/10/14/1223750036907.html

This is Peter Newman's take on it - and it is a pretty mild rebuke compared to others I have seen.

In the same period, we were going gangbusters.  TransLink was delivering service upgrades, reasonable ticketing prices, detailed plans etc and I think there was a lot more of what I will call "hope" that things would be improving imminently.

I think we are nearly in the same stretch NSW was in for some years before the ALP was turfed out, as we are now infected with the same sort of penny-pinching malaise.

[somebody]

The bus improvements in the NW were largely down to Costa weren't they?  Frankly, I have about the same respect for Cityrail as Costa did, and QR are only arguably better.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/how-costa-drove-transport-off-the-rails/2008/10/14/1223750036907.html

This is Peter Newman's take on it - and it is a pretty mild rebuke compared to others I have seen.

In the same period, we were going gangbusters.  TransLink was delivering service upgrades, reasonable ticketing prices, detailed plans etc and I think there was a lot more of what I will call "hope" that things would be improving imminently.

I think we are nearly in the same stretch NSW was in for some years before the ALP was turfed out, as we are now infected with the same sort of penny-pinching malaise.

Interesting about the bus patronage figures in NSW.  Is that just STA?  I struggle to believe that bus boardings are flat to negative.

[BrizCommuter]

We need to campaign for 15 minutes, not 20 minutes. 15 minutes is psychologically much more frequent, and is technically possible on much of the inner-suburban network.

Back to trains. BrizCommuter is more concerned about the lack of trains prior to the stage 2 timetables, and the fact that there will be no improvement to train numbers until 2014!

[ozbob]

We need to campaign for 15 minutes, not 20 minutes. 15 minutes is psychologically much more frequent, and is technically possible on much of the inner-suburban network.

Back to trains. BrizCommuter is more concerned about the lack of trains prior to the stage 2 timetables, and the fact that there will be no improvement to train numbers until 2014!

Noted.

[Cam]

express only Chelmer-Sherwood?  Seems little point in bothering

Most commuters from Ipswich will agree that there is no point in bothering with an express service that skips any less stations than the 8 that are currently skipped in peak periods in the new timetable.

[Cam]

We need to campaign for 15 minutes, not 20 minutes. 15 minutes is psychologically much more frequent, and is technically possible on much of the inner-suburban network.

I agree. Why campaign for a poorer off peak service than what Perth currently has? If it can't be done on all lines then 20 minutes is better than 30 minutes. However, the busier lines that have the infrastructure for a 15 minute service should have a 15 minute service ASAP.

Perhaps we need a public transport political party for the 2012 state election. 500 members are needed to register a party. If such a party existed, what electorates should be targeted?

[Gazza]

I think we are all disappointed.  But it is time to rethink strategies.  Clearly 4 tph Richlands and ultimately Springfield is not in their thinking at present.   This has finally convinced me it is time to move on with a new approach.  Seeing it written down like that (the proposed Springfield frequencies) has just confirmed what I already suspected strongly. 

There is a political wild card of course, but based on the past 10 years I am not very confident that they can grasp the need.

Compromise with many things in life is needed. 

But to be fair, the last 10 years were roads roads roads, and I think we are only just getting that out of our system.

[ozbob]

It is a funding issue. Clearly the present Government has no plans for increased out of peak frequency for many years.  Not sure if the opposition would drive increased frequency either should they be in government.  My guess is they would cut services rather than increase.

Hopeless situation all around.  

[O_128]

How do any rail projects get off the ground, surely the cost/benefit analysis at 30min off peak makes no sense. If it was my money I wouldn't be spending that much money for 30min off peak

[#Metro]

How do any rail projects get off the ground, surely the cost/benefit analysis at 30min off peak makes no sense. If it was my money I wouldn't be spending that much money for 30min off peak

Tell me about it! $100 - $200 million dollars per kilometre for rubbish rubbish rubbish!!!
FIX THE FREQUENCY

[ozbob]

Have a look at this timetable for the Glen Waverley line in Melbourne.  A good comparison line to the Shorncliffes and Clevelands of this world in some respects.
--> http://tt.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/tt/TTB/20111025-083046/vic/02GLW%20_ttb_TP.pdf

Note during the weekdays out of peak 15 minute frequency, then in evening a period of 20 minutes, then 30 minutes and so forth.  One way of building frequency of services is to accept that variations in frequency are one way of building improvements.

Look at Frankston --> http://tt.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/tt/TTB/20111025-083046/vic/02GLW%20_ttb_TP.pdf  comparable to Ipswich in a demographic sense in some respects.

10 minute frequency during day early evening then transitions through 15 minutes then 20 minutes.

Not all lines on a system need the same frequency.

So, simply asking for 15 minutes to everywhere is not going anywhere.  Targeting where improvements could be made in a staged manner is far more likely to result in success.

[Cam]

It is a funding issue. Clearly the present Government has no plans for increased out of peak frequency for many years.  Not sure if the opposition would drive increased frequency either should they be in government.  My guess is they would cut services rather than increase.

Hopeless situation all around.  

You have confirmed my thoughts that a public transport political party is required now. The Greens aren't campaigning on improved off peak frequencies. It seems that they are more interested in other issues.

ozbob, you already do a great job with the media. A political party with a few candidates in key electorates which would have very little chance of winning a seat but would bring further media focus & the attention of the other parties on the issues we know need to be addressed. Being a candidate costs $250 & if you win 4% of the vote you are reimbursed for your expenses including the $250 fee.

[Cam]

Not all lines on a system need the same frequency.

So, simply asking for 15 minutes to everywhere is not going anywhere.  Targeting where improvements could be made in a staged manner is far more likely to result in success.

This attitude may bring the quickest improvement considering the poor state of the QLD budget & the lack of interest from the major political parties.

[ozbob]

It is a possibility Cam.  I am not in a position to really take it on, but I others might.  If Queensland had an upper house, getting someone up as Public Transport candidate would be really achievable.  The way the Queensland state setup is though, basically a single issue party is not going to have a chance.  I prefer to stay out of the political process, remain apolitical and use the processes that are available.  I am sure we can generate a lot of interest in this coming election campaign.

[#Metro]

You have confirmed my thoughts that a public transport political party is required now. The Greens aren't campaigning on improved off peak frequencies. It seems that they are more interested in other issues.

ozbob, you already do a great job with the media. A political party with a few candidates in key electorates which would have very little chance of winning a seat but would bring further media focus & the attention of the other parties on the issues we know need to be addressed. Being a candidate costs $250 & if you win 4% of the vote you are reimbursed for your expenses including the $250 fee.

I'd like to be apolitical.

I think 20 minutes might be a possibility too, though it is still not great frequency at all.

[#Metro]

Hi Frequency Friday~! 

[Cam]

It is a possibility Cam.  I am not in a position to really take it on, but I others might.  If Queensland had an upper house, getting someone up as Public Transport candidate would be really achievable.  The way the Queensland state setup is though, basically a single issue party is not going to have a chance.  I prefer to stay out of the political process, remain apolitical and use the processes that are available.  I am sure we can generate a lot of interest in this coming election campaign.

There are numerous issues that would receive the attention that they deserve if QLD had an upper house. Many of you know my personal favourite issue apart from public transport that would have been addressed by now if QLD had an upper house.

ozbob, I understand your preference to "remain apolitical and use the processes that are available". Regardless of which political party you prefer, it is a shame that electorates on the Sunshine Coast are already safe LNP seats - apart from Nicklin held by independant Peter Wellington. There is little incentive for the ALP or the LNP to improve services there.

I think that the marginal ALP seats of Ferny Grove & Yeerongpilly are ripe for a public transport candidate.

In Yeerongpilly, there is a 30 minute off peak rail frequency & most of the voters miss out on the benefits of CRR if it goes ahead. There are a high number of public transport users & the Green vote was 16% at the last election.

In Ferny Grove, there is also a poor off peak rail frequency & there are significant parking problems at Ferny Grove. No party is considering extending the line to Samford.

There are probably other electorates where a public transport candidate may do reasonably well i.e. receive 5+% of the primary vote

[O_128]

Best we can hope for is a similar set up to federal, neither party winning and the greens gaining a few seats. As Julia said "there will be no carbon tax" so policies can change with the right influences.

[somebody]

Most commuters from Ipswich will agree that there is no point in bothering with an express service that skips any less stations than the 8 that are currently skipped in peak periods in the new timetable.

Missing Toowong off peak?  I think you should reconsider that one.  The UQ-Indro bus service is mediocre at those times, it would be far better to serve Toowong, also for the Regatta & RE.

Have a look at this timetable for the Glen Waverley line in Melbourne.  A good comparison line to the Shorncliffes and Clevelands of this world in some respects.
--> http://tt.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/tt/TTB/20111025-083046/vic/02GLW%20_ttb_TP.pdf

Note during the weekdays out of peak 15 minute frequency, then in evening a period of 20 minutes, then 30 minutes and so forth.  One way of building frequency of services is to accept that variations in frequency are one way of building improvements.

Look at Frankston --> http://tt.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/tt/TTB/20111025-083046/vic/02GLW%20_ttb_TP.pdf  comparable to Ipswich in a demographic sense in some respects.

10 minute frequency during day early evening then transitions through 15 minutes then 20 minutes.

Not all lines on a system need the same frequency.

So, simply asking for 15 minutes to everywhere is not going anywhere.  Targeting where improvements could be made in a staged manner is far more likely to result in success.

It never ceases to amaze me that in Australia we think that frequencies should drop off to 20 minutes or worse weekends and evenings.  What is needed with PT is for people to be able to rely on it, and 30 minute frequencies do not instil confidence in the service.  20 minutes is marginal.  There needs to be the feeling that at any time you can use the service, and I would say that BUZ has pretty much proven that point.

Although I don't disagree entirely with what you are saying.  30 minute frequency is fine for the Gold Coast, but not OK for Ferny Grove or Richlands.

[SteelPan]

Stop questioning the WORLD CLASS Management of this WORLD CLASS State - it's all WORLD CLASS.   We're all MOVING FORWARD and as ex-Premier, Peter Beattie said "We're building tomorrows infrastructure today!   

[Gazza]

also for the Regatta & RE.

Yeah there's pubs near every train station.

[Mr X]

Stop questioning the WORLD CLASS Management of this WORLD CLASS State - it's all WORLD CLASS.   We're all MOVING FORWARD and as ex-Premier, Peter Beattie said "We're building tomorrows infrastructure today!   

We're having european style metro systems, delivered using ground breaking technology, saving you a total of 11 mins a week! 

[#Metro]

Building Yesterday's infrastructure tomorrow....   

That sounds closer to the mark...

[Mr X]

* in "2026"

[HappyTrainGuy]

With an eco shovel and axe.

[O_128]

Building Yesterday's infrastructure tomorrow....   

That sounds closer to the mark...

You should submit that as the new queensland slogan 

[#Metro]

You should submit that as the new queensland slogan

No, PERFECT for the Sunshine Coast Line.

Where else but Queensland? In the beautiful brochure one day, postponed and unfunded the next.

[Stillwater]

QUEENSLAND: Making Do With Yesterday's Infrastructure Today.  Why waste money when something built in 1880 ain't broke yet?

[Fares_Fair]

Building Yesterday's infrastructure tomorrow....   

That sounds closer to the mark...

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[#Metro]

Connecting SEQ 1880

LOL

[Fares_Fair]

Forward to the past

Disconnecting SEQ today

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Everyone has something to complain about and their never happy with what they have. Whinge whinge whinge. Boo hoo hoo. People want express trains from their station. People want trains every 15 mins on every single line all day long.

With all due respect, rail systems suck up a huge amount of cash.  Having them expected to provide a service only at peak times isn't a good use of the money which is ploughed in to rail.

[Fares_Fair]

Imagine how many would make use of 15 minute frequency services where no timeatable was required.
A sign (PID) at every station that says there are train services every 15 minutes.
It'd absolutely be a boon.

That would be a true rail revolution.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Cam]

Most commuters from Ipswich will agree that there is no point in bothering with an express service that skips any less stations than the 8 that are currently skipped in peak periods in the new timetable.

Missing Toowong off peak?  I think you should reconsider that one.  The UQ-Indro bus service is mediocre at those times, it would be far better to serve Toowong, also for the Regatta & RE.

The main reason I stated the above is that the current express services that skip 8 stations take as long as the all stations services did in the 1995 timetable between Ipswich & Central. Why bother with an off peak express service that is slower than the all stations services were in the late 90's?

If there were all stations services to/from Redbank off peak, then Wacol & Gailes could be skipped by off peak express services from Ipswich & beyond. It is clear to me that the vast majority of users of these two stations are from surrounding suburbs. Many bypass Goodna station on the way to Gailes or Wacol because later in the morning peak or after it, they can park much closer to Gailes or Wacol stations than Goodna. Many of those from the Centenary suburbs who drive to Wacol, do so because of the slow commute times on bus services inbound in the morning peak due to the lack of a bus/transit lane on the heavily congested Western Freeway.

I think that most rail users from Ipswich would be happy with an off peak express service that stopped at Toowong provided it skipped 8+ stations. I think that if Redbank all station services are introduced in peak times in the future, then there should be 2 peak express stopping patterns - 1 including Toowong.

[somebody]

That would mean missing Milton off peak IMO.  I don't support that.  All counter peak trains should serve Milton, and having a different stopping pattern just to save a minute or so seems a tad dopey.

Looking forward to the return of Redbank starters, I think the only change to the Ipswich peak trains would be to miss the 3 stations: Gailes, Wacol and Goodna.  Springfield trains will also run express, on the same pattern: Darra/Indro/Milton.