Changes to go card fare structure announced today, 16th October 2011

[Stillwater]

It would be disappointing, and an expression of disrespect for voters if the Opposition went to the polls without a comprehensive transport policy, or one that was full of vague statements such as 'Queenslanders deserve better piblic transport and an LNP Government will deliver' or 'we will make using public transport easier'.  What where, when and how will it be funded?  The LNP can't hope to sail to the election on a campaign of negativity towards the current government.  Bring on the LNP transport policy (it is a 'discussion paper' at present).  When will the discussion become commitment?  Hopefully before, not after, the election.

[johnnigh]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

[ozbob]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

Yes, but there is the opportunity to vary ones travel habits to perhaps include an odd lunch time trip from KGSBS to Roma St, as part of an active transport/public transport lunch break?

A Gympie North commuter (and there are some) could save $40 by doing two additional zone one journeys early in the week ...

[ozbob]

612 ABC Brisbane Breakfast with Spencer Howson click here!

Rail Back on Track welcomes new ticket incentives

17 October 2011 , 8:57 AM by Spencer Howson |

Changes to Go Card ticket prices were announced yesterday including you take 10 journeys, you get to travel free for the rest of the week.

Robert Dow is from Rail Back on Track:

[Derwan]

I think the CM article sums it up quite well with this statement:

only 3.6 per cent of the 2 million card holders benefit.

Those 3.6% will simply benefit a bit more.  96.4% either won't benefit, or might make the occasional weekend get-away for nothing (if everyone in the family does the 10 journeys).

It would have been better for them to reduce the number of journeys before the 50% discount kicks in, rather than increasing the discount.

[ozbob]

I agree Derwan that there are better options, none-the-less come January, there will be a rapid escalation in those doing more than 10 journeys on the go card no doubt ...   

[somebody]

20% vs 3.6% apparent contradiction is resolved thus:
16.4% of Go Card users do exactly 10 journeys/week.  Thus will not get a benefit unless they do more trips.

[dwb]

I understand the journey counters are now not reset if a user has a fixed fare.  I will seek confirmation of that again.

Ahhh good, thanks for that Bob

[dwb]

Reality ...

Mr Emerson said the LNP could not promise to reduce or cap fares because of Queensland's growing debt.

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

Hmmm ....

Yep, and that's it. No promises, no nothing from LNP!

[dwb]

It is better in one sense, but not necessarily easier than a paper weekly, which in large part is probably what people are referring to.

Maybe not easier to understand, but I'd say just as easy, if not easier to use than a paper weekly. No need to go get a specific weekly ticket, or specify zones you're going to need, just touch and go.

Yes, but you do have to tag a lot more which is a bit of an inconvenience compared to paper... not saying we shouldn't do it, but just acknowledging this fact.

[dwb]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

Too many assumptions in this for me to take it seriously. Are you really suggesting that those who choose to live the coast lifestyle and work in Brisbane are all worse off?? Come on, talk about naive.

[dwb]

I think the CM article sums it up quite well with this statement:

only 3.6 per cent of the 2 million card holders benefit.

Those 3.6% will simply benefit a bit more.  96.4% either won't benefit, or might make the occasional weekend get-away for nothing (if everyone in the family does the 10 journeys).

It would have been better for them to reduce the number of journeys before the 50% discount kicks in, rather than increasing the discount.

20% vs 3.6% apparent contradiction is resolved thus:
16.4% of Go Card users do exactly 10 journeys/week.  Thus will not get a benefit unless they do more trips.

I agree Derwan that there are better options, none-the-less come January, there will be a rapid escalation in those doing more than 10 journeys on the go card no doubt ...   

I think Bob is getting closest, but really the main impediment to commuters using the network on the weekend is any real need - why would most bother when the services are so infrequent (many hourly on the weekend, especially SUnday) with short operation hours (start late-finish early), don't go to weekend destinations (the CBD isn't really the major weekend destination) and when they're not travelling alone.

If the govt really wanted to encourage more people to use PT on the weekend, then they should start with the timetables and routes (operation hours, destinations, frequency), then they should look at family fares - go card really needs to do something with this. In the past I've suggested a family account, with multiple cards, but perhaps that is more complicated than it really needs to be?

BUT.. one thing those numbers really do indicate, is that a good wack of commuters (office workers who HAVE little choice than to get PT during the week) choose NOT to use it on the weekend. I'm sticking with my researches outcome and that is that people are making that choice not based solely on cost, and more on convenience, reliability, frequency, and speed.

[johnnigh]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

Too many assumptions in this for me to take it seriously. Are you really suggesting that those who choose to live the coast lifestyle and work in Brisbane are all worse off?? Come on, talk about naive.

No, not naive, dwb, 'coast lifestyle' CBD commuters or not, they're mainly out beyond Darra, beyond North Gate, beyond Coopers Plains, because that's the rent or mortgage they can afford. Griffith University's urban planning unit's long term interest in this issue - the vulnerability of the outer suburban to increases in costs of access to jobs and services (Jago Dobson's VIPER work) - clearly shows that households have to trade off access for affordable housing. Suggest you do some reading...

[Golliwog]

Mr Emerson really doesn't seem to understand that this change to the FUD isn't about giving people a benefit for keeping on doing what they're doing. It's trying to convince people to use PT for more than just the daily commute. I also find his "less than 1 in 10 go card holders likely to qualify" a bit missleading. It makes it sound like theres some kind of criteria they have to meet (like Centrelink or something), whereas it really just comes down to how often you travel in a week. I understand thats what he's alluding to, but it comes off the wrong way.

[Fares_Fair]

The Government needs to encourage off peak usage and I can understand that.
The better utilisation of a current off-peak service is a positive for the network.

It will be interesting to see the results after January 2 as to whether it has an impact.

My questions to the Hon Annastacia Palaszczuk MP, Minister for Transport and Multicultural Affairs:
1.   "Where is the review of 6 and 12 month tickets as promised after the train boycott of 17 March, 2011?"
2.   "Has it been reviewed by the PTAG in the 7 months since your announcement?"


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Gazza]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

Well, if they are already doing their 10 work journeys, no problem!

If they are doing less than this then they should be doing some local trips to the shops on the Coast/Ipswich/Wherever they live etc ,if they really want to call themselves a frequent user.

[Golliwog]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

But how is that any different to a weekly/monthly/annual ticket? The only difference is that in this case the free travel can be to anywhere rather than within the zones given on a weekly ticket.

[Derwan]

But how is that any different to a weekly/monthly/annual ticket? The only difference is that in this case the free travel can be to anywhere rather than within the zones given on a weekly ticket.

With the old tickets, you used to pay as follows:

Weekly:  8 journeys (not 10)
Monthly: 32 journeys (i.e. 4 x weeklies, which means you potentially save the cost of another few days.)

[somebody]

But how is that any different to a weekly/monthly/annual ticket? The only difference is that in this case the free travel can be to anywhere rather than within the zones given on a weekly ticket.

With the old tickets, you used to pay as follows:

Weekly:  8 journeys (not 10)
Monthly: 32 journeys (i.e. 4 x weeklies, which means you potentially save the cost of another few days.)

I for one am very much in favour of this aspect of the fare policy.  Also the bit where out of usual zone trips aren't a pain is a positive.

[ozbob]

@dwb et al

Advice received, official:

The weekly journey count doesn't re-set with a fixed fare journey. However fixed fare is not included as a journey.

Source: TransLink

Thanks for the confirmation TransLink!   

[Fares_Fair]

To Robert Dow, Spokesman for Rail Back on Track,

Good story in the Courier-Mail today.
Thank you.

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[ozbob]

 

[dwb]

Yes, it's a gimmick, but one that has benefits, more for some than for others. In proportion terms, the greatest beneficiaries are one zone commuters who only have to spend 10 x 1 zone fares to get the freebies. Consider the commuters from the Coasts or Ipswich & beyond who have to spend 10 x up to 15 zone fares to get a freebie. And these tend to be the least well off, naturally. So the mighty minds of our transport planners have again seen it best to advantage themselves and their neighbours. LOL

Too many assumptions in this for me to take it seriously. Are you really suggesting that those who choose to live the coast lifestyle and work in Brisbane are all worse off?? Come on, talk about naive.

No, not naive, dwb, 'coast lifestyle' CBD commuters or not, they're mainly out beyond Darra, beyond North Gate, beyond Coopers Plains, because that's the rent or mortgage they can afford. Griffith University's urban planning unit's long term interest in this issue - the vulnerability of the outer suburban to increases in costs of access to jobs and services (Jago Dobson's VIPER work) - clearly shows that households have to trade off access for affordable housing. Suggest you do some reading...

I'm aware of VIPER... the "vulnerability" to increases in cost in transport is to a large extent driven by distance (ie bigger fuel change impact cost), lack of PT (low density sprawl) and mortgage risk... ie lots of (currently) cashed up bogans live their coastie lifestyle with huge mortgages and as AFAIKI the recommendations of the study are more about dealing with single use land use planning, sprawl and lack of PT coverage, rather than simply saying people who live further from the centre are all poorer and should be given more heavily subsidised access to PT than they already do.

[dwb]

@dwb et al

Advice received, official:

The weekly journey count doesn't re-set with a fixed fare journey. However fixed fare is not included as a journey.

Source: TransLink

Thanks for the confirmation TransLink!   

Thanks Bob, good to know, I'm much happier now that I know this

[dwb]

But how is that any different to a weekly/monthly/annual ticket? The only difference is that in this case the free travel can be to anywhere rather than within the zones given on a weekly ticket.

No, paper weekly tickets were also valid from whatever day you purchased them, not a fixed Monday to Sunday routine.

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

[somebody]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

I think that is tough luck.  <sarcasm> Isn't it unfair to commute to work 9 days in a row and have to pay for every one of them? </sarcasm>

[ozbob]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

Yes, been thinking along those lines as well.  Might be able to raise it at the PTAG.  Been a few blog comments pointing out this issue as well.

[dwb]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

I think that is tough luck.  <sarcasm> Isn't it unfair to commute to work 9 days in a row and have to pay for every one of them? </sarcasm>

I don't think sarcasm is an appropriate response to an inequal distribution of benefit. There are many who do not fit the M-F 9-5 commuter stereotype and it is about time that TL started to acknowledge those other people full stop.

[Golliwog]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

Yes, been thinking along those lines as well.  Might be able to raise it at the PTAG.  Been a few blog comments pointing out this issue as well.

I agree about the reset day being a bit dodgey. I sent an online feedback suggestion to Translink last night, and got this response this morning:

Hello _______

Thank you for contacting TransLink with your suggestion for the go card frequent user discount.

Whilst I cannot say at this stage that your suggestion will definitely be implemented, I can say that your comment has been noted and passed to our Ticketing and Fares Policy Team for their future consideration.
_______, thank you for taking the time to provide us with your idea.


Kind regards
Steve
TransLink Customer Support

[dwb]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

Yes, been thinking along those lines as well.  Might be able to raise it at the PTAG.  Been a few blog comments pointing out this issue as well.

I agree about the reset day being a bit dodgey. I sent an online feedback suggestion to Translink last night, and got this response this morning:

Hello _______

Thank you for contacting TransLink with your suggestion for the go card frequent user discount.

Whilst I cannot say at this stage that your suggestion will definitely be implemented, I can say that your comment has been noted and passed to our Ticketing and Fares Policy Team for their future consideration.
_______, thank you for taking the time to provide us with your idea.


Kind regards
Steve
TransLink Customer Support

Excellent Golli, I might send them an email too

Ed... just emailed this:
I would like to suggest that when Translink implements the new 10-then-free rule on Go card that customers be able to set their own 7 day week... that is, for instance if my shift work weekly routine begins on a Wednesday and finishes on a Tuesday, that I should be able to set my 7 day period as such to gain the same benefit of free journeys after my tenth as do standard Monday to Friday 9-5 commuters.

[Fares_Fair]

This has generated lots of comment and questions.

I received an email asking the following (and clearly planning a strategy under the new go card fare rules):

On hearing this the other day my first thought was that the free-trips after the 10 in the week would not benefit commuters and I could not think of who could utilise them (I hadn't thought of uni students as an example). I'd tried to find out more on what constitutes the 10 trips – do they have to be of similar size or can a run from Central to Roma Street be considered a trip. I haven't been able to find anything on the Translink website which clears it up. If so, I would see that there will be people doing lunchtime journeys or short trips to other stations just to rack up the 10 and then have the benefit of the free trips afterwards.

I do not see this as a benefit to the 93% of majority regular users even though it is touted as such.
For long haul commuters we spend enough of our time on the train as it is and the last thing we want to do on a weekend is spend more time on slower trains.


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[dwb]

This has generated lots of comment and questions.

I received an email asking the following (and clearly planning a strategy under the new go card fare rules):

On hearing this the other day my first thought was that the free-trips after the 10 in the week would not benefit commuters and I could not think of who could utilise them (I hadn't thought of uni students as an example). I'd tried to find out more on what constitutes the 10 trips – do they have to be of similar size or can a run from Central to Roma Street be considered a trip. I haven't been able to find anything on the Translink website which clears it up. If so, I would see that there will be people doing lunchtime journeys or short trips to other stations just to rack up the 10 and then have the benefit of the free trips afterwards.

Translink does need to educate people better the difference between a trip and a journey... one problem is their media releases often seem to misuse the word trip for journey

However, if you read the transfer rules, then it does explain that a journey is made up of multiple trips and when a transfer occurs. After 10 journeys you get the free... just as now after ten journeys (not trips) you get the frequent user discount. It is a little bit of semantics, and translink could make it clearer, still it is not that hard people!

[Fares_Fair]

Perhaps we should argue the case for translink to let you set your default week commencement day on the online environment so that shift workers and 9 day fortnight people like Brizcommuter talks about can benefit too?!

Yes, been thinking along those lines as well.  Might be able to raise it at the PTAG.  Been a few blog comments pointing out this issue as well.

I agree about the reset day being a bit dodgey. I sent an online feedback suggestion to Translink last night, and got this response this morning:

Hello _______

Thank you for contacting TransLink with your suggestion for the go card frequent user discount.

Whilst I cannot say at this stage that your suggestion will definitely be implemented, I can say that your comment has been noted and passed to our Ticketing and Fares Policy Team for their future consideration.
_______, thank you for taking the time to provide us with your idea.


Kind regards
Steve
TransLink Customer Support

Excellent Golli, I might send them an email too

Ed... just emailed this:
I would like to suggest that when Translink implements the new 10-then-free rule on Go card that customers be able to set their own 7 day week... that is, for instance if my shift work weekly routine begins on a Wednesday and finishes on a Tuesday, that I should be able to set my 7 day period as such to gain the same benefit of free journeys after my tenth as do standard Monday to Friday 9-5 commuters.

Even if this could be done (and I don't like it's chances given the apparent inflexibility of the go card to do anything else) like season tickets e.g.
Wouldn't you be forever changing your week day starting point, and losing out on the inbetween days when you have to reset for a full week ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Golliwog]

I would have thought for most shift workers it would be a similar routine as your standard office worker, except its not 9-5 M-F. So you would change it once so it starts when you need it. Casual staff who many have it changing frequently week to week may have issues still, but they would more than likely have issues under the current set up anyway.

[somebody]

There are many who do not fit the M-F 9-5 commuter stereotype and it is about time that TL started to acknowledge those other people full stop.

I think they do so more than any other authority in the country.  Witness Melbourne and Perth evening train frequency reductions, and in Sydney bus service reduces dramatically after 9pm.  Similarly off peak discounts aren't available in SYD/MEL/PER except on the Sydney train only return tickets, and the going Metcard (I think V/Line might have it though).

While there are a lot of things to pick fault with Translink over, I do not think it is productive to say that they should be doing even more than they are on an area where they are already doing well.

I do not see this as a benefit to the 93% of majority regular users even though it is touted as such.
For long haul commuters we spend enough of our time on the train as it is and the last thing we want to do on a weekend is spend more time on slower trains.

I don't have a problem with it.  Trying to encourage more people to use PT off peak is a GOOD THING.

I would like to suggest that when Translink implements the new 10-then-free rule on Go card that customers be able to set their own 7 day week... that is, for instance if my shift work weekly routine begins on a Wednesday and finishes on a Tuesday, that I should be able to set my 7 day period as such to gain the same benefit of free journeys after my tenth as do standard Monday to Friday 9-5 commuters.

Think man.  Who wouldn't set the week start to Friday or Saturday?  That means a higher proportion of the 10 trips would include the off peak discount.  Only people not travelling off peak wouldn't do it.

[Fares_Fair]

I do not see this as a benefit to the 93% of majority regular users even though it is touted as such.
For long haul commuters we spend enough of our time on the train as it is and the last thing we want to do on a weekend is spend more time on slower trains.

I don't have a problem with it.  Trying to encourage more people to use PT off peak is a GOOD THING.

I agree, regarding off peak use encouragement, just pointing out the obvious for long slow haul commuters.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[dwb]

Think man.  Who wouldn't set the week start to Friday or Saturday?  That means a higher proportion of the 10 trips would include the off peak discount.  Only people not travelling off peak wouldn't do it.

Um, you'd 1) have to actually make trips on the weekend first and 2) it's only 20% cheaper, which really is a drop in the bucket.

[somebody]

Think man.  Who wouldn't set the week start to Friday or Saturday?  That means a higher proportion of the 10 trips would include the off peak discount.  Only people not travelling off peak wouldn't do it.

Um, you'd 1) have to actually make trips on the weekend first and 2) it's only 20% cheaper, which really is a drop in the bucket.

If we aren't worried about the 20% then why are we bothering?

You are assuming that people aren't travelling less zones on weekends though.  I suppose sometimes you might travel more zones on a weekend.

Just have one rule for everyone.  I don't see a reason to add confusion here.

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

So they won't do anything different?  (From the courier mail)

[colinw]

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

So they won't do anything different?  (From the courier mail)

Hmm, fare increases that have been patronage drop and subsidies increase aren't going to do anything about that debt, are they?  Keep going down this path and it can only lead to out of control subsidies followed by service cuts.

The last 15% rise crossed some kind of threshold where people started leaving the system, as evidenced by stagnation of growth and now even drops in patronage.  Anyone want to guess what the next 15% rise might do, and whether services like Doomben & Rosewood, or marginal bus runs like my own 554 route stand much of a chance of surviving with this combination of fares & service frequency?

Something has to give eventually. Sooner or later this or another Government is going to lose its appetite to keep pumping in ever more subsidy into a system that is going backwards in cost recovery. Anyone prepared to bet that they will go for cheaper fares & more frequent services rather than service cuts?

[dwb]

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

So they won't do anything different?  (From the courier mail)

Hmm, fare increases that have been patronage drop and subsidies increase aren't going to do anything about that debt, are they?  Keep going down this path and it can only lead to out of control subsidies followed by service cuts.

The last 15% rise crossed some kind of threshold where people started leaving the system, as evidenced by stagnation of growth and now even drops in patronage.  Anyone want to guess what the next 15% rise might do, and whether services like Doomben & Rosewood, or marginal bus runs like my own 554 route stand much of a chance of surviving with this combination of fares & service frequency?

Something has to give eventually. Sooner or later this or another Government is going to lose its appetite to keep pumping in ever more subsidy into a system that is going backwards in cost recovery. Anyone prepared to bet that they will go for cheaper fares & more frequent services rather than service cuts?

Still to be proven patronage a) actually dropped and b) that this was related to fare increases.