Changes to go card fare structure announced today, 16th October 2011

[Fares_Fair]

I'm with you on this one Briz.

IIRC, only 7% of commuters would utilise the discount after 10 trips and this coupled with the 15% fare hikes gives the outcome you calculated.
93% were regular 10 trip commuters who will not get a benefit.
Time will tell.

Minister Palaszczuk, where is the promised review of 6 and 12 month (equivalent) tickets [or go card options] as promised after the boycott of 17 March, 2011?
Has it even been reviewed by the PTAG in the 7 months since the announcement ?

This is just an announcement to offset the huge outcry when fares increase again in January, with no improvements in the level of service.
44% of our sunny coast week day trains are buses (starting after 6:57am).
Our journeys are up 8 minutes longer, and this for the longest distance commuters in the SEQ.
We share a single line track that a government report produced by Engineers says will cause socio-economic problems if works are not completed to Landsborough. (Arup 2007)


The off-peak fares are a technical bonus but are actually offset by the 15% across the board increases.
Again, only time will tell if it actually increases off-peak usage anything more than marginally.
The overall cost of public transport going up in 15% increments will kill off the benefits IMHO.
Again, only time will tell if it is successful.

Obviously, this is the view of a regular 10 trip Sunshine Coast commuter 1 car family of 6 who will suffer with the 15% increases and slower/longer services.
This coupled with the reliability standards of recent months doesn't help to increase patronage.

Trains to the Sunshine Coast are already full from day 1 of the new timetables (this after the gross overcrowding of 6 June to 10 July) which was thankfully corrected by a new train service,
but there is only room for growth in standees on our peak time services. That has to be a concern as well.


Overall and from a network wide perspective, something is better than nothing at all.


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[david]

Sure 15% increases are a fair whack, but if everyone got a direct 15% increase in service, then we'd end up with more wasteful routes like Route 29. BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication. What I mean by this is that everyone indirectly receives their "15%", some just don't realise it.

Plus your 14 trips figure is interesting. Have you considered inflation yet? And what would that comedown to if one were to travel down to the Gold Coast on the weekend?

[ozbob]

As I have stated previously, this outcome is not my preferred option.  However, I am grateful that there has been a change and for some a real benefit.

Please respect each others point of views, disagree by all means but constructively.

The positives as I see them is that it will increase public transport patronage, particularly outside the routine Mon-Fri commute.  I can see a lot of long haul commuters travelling on say a Glider to West End to partake of luncheon on the river during the week as well  ...     This is the risk to me of this sort of structure, it is easily rorted.  It remains to be seen if this occurs in a significant manner.  There is also now a powerful driver for some folks to share an unregistered go card, say someone uses it for 3 days a week, someone else uses for the remainder of the week - they split the savings ...

Feedback I have had from Seniors using the two journey cap has been very positive, once they work out the subtleties of trips vs. journeys ...

It does appear that the authorities are sticking to the projected fare increases.  This obviously is a political risk leading into an election and remains to be seen if the opposition will counter this latest go card fare change.  Many 10 journey a week commuters might not be too impressed but if they think about it for a while, they may well be able to see some benefits for their circumstance.

[somebody]

I can see a lot of long haul commuters travelling on say a Glider to West End to partake of luncheon on the river during the week as well  ...     This is the risk to me of this sort of structure, it is easily rorted.  It remains to be seen if this occurs in a significant manner.  There is also now a powerful driver for some folks to share an unregistered go card, say someone uses it for 3 days a week, someone else uses for the remainder of the week - they split the savings ...

I agree with the first point, but I don't see how the second point applies any differently to weeklies.

This policy seems to be about not appearing to back down rather than any actual benefit.

[ozbob]

... I don't see how the second point applies any differently to weeklies.

Some folks printed their own! And sharing was also practised no doubt.  The go card was launched with the premise that fare evasion would be sorted.

Well it won't.  I cannot see them restricting the free travel after 10 journeys to registered cards, which is really the only way of making it tight with respect to this.

How much leakage of the fare box occurs will be difficult to quantify, but I have no doubt they will be alert to the possibility ...

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication.

David - can you explain how BrizCommuter is receiving his 15% through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, let alone >50% fare rises in the last few years? The alleged 4 extra trains per day = less than 8% service improvement since 2008 (which will be >4 years upon implementation).

Whilst BrizCommuter uses his own situation as an example, there are better and worse off commuters in Brisbane. Living 1km to the south from Chez BrizCommuter would result in 0% new services (within 1km) in the last 5 years and no sign of improvement!

The abandonment of introducing 15 min off-peak rail services is a huge disgrace, and those who rely on rail really should be questioning why they are travelling on such a poor value for money transport system!

[Fares_Fair]

Wouldn't it be great if they could trial a 15 minute frequency, network wide just for a day, to see what happens, who uses it and how much it actually costs.
It could be advertised months in advance.

Pipedream I know...

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[colinw]

BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication.

David - can you explain how BrizCommuter is receiving his 15% through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, let alone >50% fare rises in the last few years? The alleged 4 extra trains per day = less than 8% service improvement since 2008 (which will be >4 years upon implementation).

Whilst BrizCommuter uses his own situation as an example, there are better and worse off commuters in Brisbane. Living 1km to the south from Chez BrizCommuter would result in 0% new services (within 1km) in the last 5 years and no sign of improvement!

The abandonment of introducing 15 min off-peak rail services is a huge disgrace, and those who rely on rail really should be questioning why they are travelling on such a poor value for money transport system!

+1.  

Indeed. I'm kind of curious as to where Beenleigh, Cleveland, Ipswich beyond Darra, Caboolture, Shorncliffe, Doomben & Nambour line commuters are getting their 15% worth as well. Yes, I know I got my nice shiny triple line & new stations from Coopers Plains to Kuraby, but that is hardly compensation for a service no more frequent and several minutes slower than it was in the 1990s. (Left out Gold Coast because it is by far the best of the longer distance services, and has actually had some decent investment in the rail line lately).

Not to mention a local bus service - the service I actually use to get to work - which still cuts out just after 7PM and goes hourly through the day including right through end of school hours.

Unless the goal is to give an extra 15% aggravation?  Maybe that's it?

Now, I don't mind this announcement, and it reinstates something that is effectively like the old weekly. I think we can put that whole "structure" thing to bed now - this'll do, and focus on the more important issues of service frequency and base fare levels.

But please don't go telling me how we're getting our 15% worth for the fare rises, because for many commuters that is simply not true. All we are getting is 15% compounding price hikes for the same old services, or even services slightly inferior to what they once were.

[Fares_Fair]

BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication.

David - can you explain how BrizCommuter is receiving his 15% through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, let alone >50% fare rises in the last few years? The alleged 4 extra trains per day = less than 8% service improvement since 2008 (which will be >4 years upon implementation).

Whilst BrizCommuter uses his own situation as an example, there are better and worse off commuters in Brisbane. Living 1km to the south from Chez BrizCommuter would result in 0% new services (within 1km) in the last 5 years and no sign of improvement!

The abandonment of introducing 15 min off-peak rail services is a huge disgrace, and those who rely on rail really should be questioning why they are travelling on such a poor value for money transport system!

+1.  

Indeed. I'm kind of curious as to where Beenleigh, Cleveland, Ipswich beyond Darra, Caboolture, Shorncliffe, Doomben & Nambour line commuters are getting their 15% worth as well. Yes, I know I got my nice shiny triple line & new stations from Coopers Plains to Kuraby, but that is hardly compensation for a service no more frequent and several minutes slower than it was in the 1990s. (Left out Gold Coast because it is by far the best of the longer distance services, and has actually had some decent investment in the rail line lately).

Not to mention a local bus service - the service I actually use to get to work - which still cuts out just after 7PM and goes hourly through the day including right through end of school hours.

Unless the goal is to give an extra 15% aggravation?  Maybe that's it?

Now, I don't mind this announcement, and it reinstates something that is effectively like the old weekly. But please don't go telling me how we're getting our 15% worth for the fare rises, because for many commuters that is simply not true. All we are getting is 15% compounding price hikes for the same old services, or even services slightly inferior to what they once were.

+1 = 2 

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Cam]

But please don't go telling me how we're getting our 15% worth for the fare rises, because for many commuters that is simply not true. All we are getting is 15% compounding price hikes for the same old services, or even services slightly inferior to what they once were.

You've pretty much summed it up for most commuters. Did Perth commuters suffer 15% compounding price hikes for several years in a row before the 15 minute off peak service frequency was introduced?

[Arnz]

Wouldn't it be great if they could trial a 15 minute frequency, network wide just for a day, to see what happens, who uses it and how much it actually costs.
It could be advertised months in advance.

Pipedream I know...

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

There are also the costs in setting it up, checking which buses can be used, paying schedulers for sorting out work schedules for that day and/or period, and probably the extra units needed.

[david]

BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication.

David - can you explain how BrizCommuter is receiving his 15% through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, let alone >50% fare rises in the last few years? The alleged 4 extra trains per day = less than 8% service improvement since 2008 (which will be >4 years upon implementation).

You don't know this yet. No timetables have been released. Let's not be too pessimistic.

And I see that you have correlated fares with service levels, rather than infrastructure. In that case, fair enough. I was merely trying to point out that infrastructure (such as the new trains, new buses, etc) were part of the 15% increase (because infrastructure does not just pop up for free), but if we are looking purely at a 15% service increase, then no. The only places I would daresay have a 15% service increase are those areas serviced by BUZ routes, CityCat, and any train station with new 15 minute frequencies. But like I said, if everyone in SE QLD were to have a service increase of 15%, we would have waste like Route 29 running around.

Mind you, I am highly supportive of the Ferny Grove line receiving 15 minute off-peak frequencies. There's nothing stopping it, seeing as it's a purely suburban line. If it does happen, I suspect that 3-car trains will be turning up to a station near you BrizCommuter!

[somebody]

BrizCommuter - you are receiving your "15%" through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication.

David - can you explain how BrizCommuter is receiving his 15% through the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, let alone >50% fare rises in the last few years? The alleged 4 extra trains per day = less than 8% service improvement since 2008 (which will be >4 years upon implementation).

Perhaps by lobbying strongly for duplication as opposed to service improvements?

Show me the troll!

[BrizCommuter]

Mind you, I am highly supportive of the Ferny Grove line receiving 15 minute off-peak frequencies. There's nothing stopping it, seeing as it's a purely suburban line. If it does happen, I suspect that 3-car trains will be turning up to a station near you BrizCommuter!

15-min off-peak on Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Ferny Grove Lines are not happening in 2012 according to BrizCommuter's sources, and possibly not even until the end of this decade according to one QR source. Petrie maybe in 2016.

BrizCommuter would of course love to be proved wrong for 2012, but the evidence is currently massively stacked against it.

The draft timetables will be out in a few weeks.

[Golliwog]

What I don't get it the people commenting on the BT article whining about "bring back my weekly ticket." Can someone please explain how this free after 10 trips in 1 week isn't a weekly ticket?

[Gazza]

Because people are dumb and want to do things they've always been done, even when the equivalent is actually better in this case!

[SurfRail]

What I don't get it the people commenting on the BT article whining about "bring back my weekly ticket." Can someone please explain how this free after 10 trips in 1 week isn't a weekly ticket?

It isn't a weekly ticket - because it can offer considerably better value than a weekly ever did (ignoring the price differentials due to fare increases).

I think the public has a right to have a say.  I also think most members of the public confuse that with an entitlement to dictate government policy in a way that favours them personally to the bureaucrats collecting their opinions.  In other words - a failure to understand that public comment guides policy, not formulates it, and that the government should not be obliged to drop its proposed measures because Mrs Coulthard from down the road doesn't like something.  

Most people couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag, but it doesn't stop them from thinking that they can, or from having an opinion on what colour the bag should be.

[Golliwog]

Exactly. I just don't get how people can't see how good a deal they can get from this. And Translink has something to gain from this to. As they said, only 20% of people using the go card currently get up to or over the 10 trip per week threshold. I certainly know I would give serious thought to using PT much more now out of peak than I did previously.

[Cam]

The CityGlider, as well as other services along Adelaide St, will become very popular at lunchtime on Mondays, Tuesdays & Wednesdays  next year for one stop trips - particularly for those who commute a considerable distance to work. A one zone trip at lunchtime on Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday would provide a free trip home on Thursday as well as to & from work on Friday.

[dwb]

I kind of like this. It's not exactly the easiest thing to understand, but it is effectively a weekly ticket. I think this is a definite improvement. Once people starting using PT on weekends for travel other than commuting, I think you might just see an increase in travel earlier in the week once they start seeing where else they can use it to get the discount earlier.

Yes, it is effectively a weekly ticket. And they never worked to really incentivise PT either... except for a few people.

Bad decision on behalf of Translink

ed to correct quote codes

[dwb]

Seriously, I cannot believe that anyone can question that fare hikes are reducing patronage!  It's one of the main things that people I talk to whinge about re: PT.

Surely it is the inefficiency of the system that is limiting patronage, not fares, at least in not in peak.

[somebody]

Seriously, I cannot believe that anyone can question that fare hikes are reducing patronage!  It's one of the main things that people I talk to whinge about re: PT.

Surely it is the inefficiency of the system that is limiting patronage, not fares, at least in not in peak.

It's both.

Fares are limiting patronage in peak as well as off peak of course.

[dwb]

The demographic that does the most journeys per week are uni students, so it is a win for them. Some of my former students were easily into journey number ten on a Wednesday.  They would be smiling a little now ...

This idea of free after 10 journeys has actually been around a while, it was nearly introduced  early this year informed sources tell me.   Modelling is available so why not?

Considering the tight budget positions, it is good that something has been done. In time I am sure the 20% who do more then ten journeys will increase ...

Yes this is great for full time students... the ones who don't suffer an errant tag on/off issue that denies them the count to free travel just like atm with 50% frequent user discount

[dwb]

Yeah I mean I'm not really getting the negativity surrounding this. In effect, it will mean a lot of free weekend travel for many, which pretty much trumps the $3 deal they have in Melbourne.

Except um the major problem with the network on the weekend is that it is CBD focussed and runs at extremely poor frequencies... if you want to improve PT for people for leisure/community etc, then first just improve weekend timetables please... especially as if you had a proper offpeak discount (like 50%) then you'd be getting that on the weekend anyway... cos it's offpeak and always has been.

[Gazza]

The CityGlider, as well as other services along Adelaide St, will become very popular at lunchtime on Mondays, Tuesdays & Wednesdays  next year for one stop trips - particularly for those who commute a considerable distance to work. A one zone trip at lunchtime on Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday would provide a free trip home on Thursday as well as to & from work on Friday.

Win for PT because all of a sudden it has all these extra trips inflating the figures...Its just like those drivers who push the count button for all pax to help boost the numbers, but on a larger scale 

[dwb]

we would have waste like Route 29 running around.

What exactly is so wasteful about route 29??

[dwb]

What I don't get it the people commenting on the BT article whining about "bring back my weekly ticket." Can someone please explain how this free after 10 trips in 1 week isn't a weekly ticket?

It is better in one sense, but not necessarily easier than a paper weekly, which in large part is probably what people are referring to.

[Golliwog]

It is better in one sense, but not necessarily easier than a paper weekly, which in large part is probably what people are referring to.

Maybe not easier to understand, but I'd say just as easy, if not easier to use than a paper weekly. No need to go get a specific weekly ticket, or specify zones you're going to need, just touch and go.

[Golliwog]

we would have waste like Route 29 running around.

What exactly is so wasteful about route 29??

I must admit I've never seen it carry any massive load, though I do see the point of a Gabba-UQ route, even if just to reduce dead running.

[Gazza]

Plus if you had a Z1-3 Weekly, you cant go to the GC on that without a fare adjustment (Could we even do that here?)

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

State Government hopes free travel loyalty plan will take sting from 15 pc fare hike

State Government hopes free travel loyalty plan will take sting from 15 pc fare hike

by: Koren Helbig and Robyn Ironside

A SURVEY showing the affordability of public transport is at a three-year low has prompted the State Government to announce free travel for go card holders who make more than 10 journeys a week.

Currently go card carriers get a 50 per cent discount after 10 trips, but only 3.6 per cent of the 2 million card holders benefit.

Yesterday's announcement by Acting Premier Andrew Fraser came after Friday's release of the latest customer satisfaction survey by Translink for the April-June quarter.

It showed two out of five commuters believed it was cheaper to drive and park than catch a train, bus or ferry as the affordability rating for train travel sank to 54 per cent.

Commuter advocacy group Back on Track said it was "irrefutable evidence of why a fare restructure was needed" in southeast Queensland.

"Longer-distance rail commuters are really hurting with the loss of the weekly and monthly tickets," said Robert Dow from Back on Track.

The survey showed patronage was down 1.7 million trips from April to June, and fines for fare evaders hit a new record with transit officers catching an average 90 a day.

Fares have risen more than 30 per cent in two years and are scheduled to rise 15 per cent a year until 2014.

Mr Fraser yesterday said the hikes were necessary to improve the system but insisted the 10-journey cap would reward "Translink's most loyal customers" while encouraging more to use the system.

His office said about 8 per cent of the 430,000 regular go card users took more than 10 trips a week, with another 23 per cent taking eight to 10 weekly trips.

Offering free travel from January next year was expected to cost $7 million annually.

"We need to remember that we're running these trains and buses anyway and there are spare seats so we're happy for those regular commuters to get the benefit of using those seats," Mr Fraser said.

But Opposition transport spokesman Scott Emerson said the cap would not benefit average Monday to Friday commuters, with less than one in 10 of the two million go card holders likely to qualify.

Mr Emerson said the LNP could not promise to reduce or cap fares because of Queensland's growing debt.

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

[ozbob]

Plus if you had a Z1-3 Weekly, you cant go to the GC on that without a fare adjustment (Could we even do that here?)

Yes Gazza, with the old paper periodical tickets, one could purchase an extension ticket (single or daily) say zone 3 to 23 if one wanted.  I often did it.  At the time I don't think this was well or widely known.

[ozbob]

The demographic that does the most journeys per week are uni students, so it is a win for them. Some of my former students were easily into journey number ten on a Wednesday.  They would be smiling a little now ...

This idea of free after 10 journeys has actually been around a while, it was nearly introduced  early this year informed sources tell me.   Modelling is available so why not?

Considering the tight budget positions, it is good that something has been done. In time I am sure the 20% who do more then ten journeys will increase ...

Yes this is great for full time students... the ones who don't suffer an errant tag on/off issue that denies them the count to free travel just like atm with 50% frequent user discount

I understand the journey counters are now not reset if a user has a fixed fare.  I will seek confirmation of that again.

[ozbob]

Reality ...

Mr Emerson said the LNP could not promise to reduce or cap fares because of Queensland's growing debt.

"We will review the fares when we can get the debt and the interest bill under control," Mr Emerson said.

Hmmm ....

[ozbob]

Media release 17 October 2011

SEQ: Go!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has welcomed the changes to the go card fare structure announced by the acting Premier and Minister for Transport (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The authorities have indicated that they intend to stick to the planned fare increases of 15% per annum till 2014 (2). "

"The fare structure changes announced yesterday do allow citizens to use public transport in a smarter way, and in so doing save money directly in fares and in broader costs by choosing to use public transport more often even in the face of the planned fare increases.  To support these fare changes better train service frequency out of peak is needed generally, and some review of bus routes, particularly weekends will also be needed to support the changed fare structure.  This way, the broader economic benefits of increased public transport utilisation will be realised."

"The go card changes mean once the tenth journey in the Monday to Sunday week is achieved on a go card travel then becomes free.  It is important that users understand a journey is a travel leg on a go card that is separated by an hour break.  A journey can actually consist of multiple trips  if transfers are achieved within an hour (3).

"Full time university students, 'learner earners' , do multiple daily journeys as a rule.  The free fares after 10 journeys in the week  will be of significant benefit to them.  An outcome we are grateful for. Others will find that if they now start to plan to change their travel habits in light of the fare structure changes we are certain they can optimise their go card use, personally reduce overall travel expenditure, and contribute positively to broader community economic benefits in assisting to lower road trauma costs, assisting in congestion reduction and better environmental outcomes for all."

"We believe this is not the 'end of the line' with respect to go card fare enhancements. Not all will be happy with these initial changes, but as we have suggested it is now possible to reduce one's travel costs by being smarter and using the new fare structure for maximum benefit for all."

References:

1. http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=77134

2. http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/planned-fares

3. http://backontrack.org/docs/go/smart_go_user_v1.pdf page 6

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

But Opposition transport spokesman Scott Emerson said the cap would not benefit average Monday to Friday commuters, with less than one in 10 of the two million go card holders likely to qualify.

Mr Emerson doesn't seem to realise that's what a discount is supposed to do! Anything more than that and its a price reduction!

$ 7 million dollars annually is equal to 2 - 3 BUZ routes. Personally I don't think this will do much to change PT usage or have much external benefit on health/environment or PT usage. Its the weekend...

Really underlines the importance of using the $$$ to establish the Core Frequent Network- that can be used anytime and effectively reduces the time cost of travel (the waiting time component) which has the same effect as reducing the ticket price by a significant amount.

[ButFli]

The demographic that does the most journeys per week are uni students, so it is a win for them. Some of my former students were easily into journey number ten on a Wednesday.  They would be smiling a little now ...

This idea of free after 10 journeys has actually been around a while, it was nearly introduced  early this year informed sources tell me.   Modelling is available so why not?

Considering the tight budget positions, it is good that something has been done. In time I am sure the 20% who do more then ten journeys will increase ...

Yes this is great for full time students... the ones who don't suffer an errant tag on/off issue that denies them the count to free travel just like atm with 50% frequent user discount

I understand the journey counters are now not reset if a user has a fixed fare.  I will seek confirmation of that again.

It's true. The count is not reset by a penalty fare. It's just the trip that you didn't tag off for that isn't counted.

[somebody]

So what happens if you get a fixed fare in the new system?  Does it count toward the 10 trips?  What if you've already made 10 trips - are you still able to get a fixed fare.

I can back up ButFli.

[somebody]

But Opposition transport spokesman Scott Emerson said the cap would not benefit average Monday to Friday commuters, with less than one in 10 of the two million go card holders likely to qualify.

Mr Emerson doesn't seem to realise that's what a discount is supposed to do! Anything more than that and its a price reduction!

$ 7 million dollars annually is equal to 2 - 3 BUZ routes. Personally I don't think this will do much to change PT usage or have much external benefit on health/environment or PT usage. Its the weekend...

Really underlines the importance of using the $$$ to establish the Core Frequent Network- that can be used anytime and effectively reduces the time cost of travel (the waiting time component) which has the same effect as reducing the ticket price by a significant amount.

What do you expect from an opposition though?

[ozbob]

Interviews 4BC, 612 ABC Brisbane, MMM, QUT News on this morning already. Lot of interest.  I have focussed on the positives and the need for frequency improvements as well of course ...  

QUT News is stoked of course ...