Mt Ommaney buses

[somebody]

I've noticed that weekday daytimes, the 460 and 454 depart QSBS B1 2 minutes apart.  Heading inbound @Sinnamon Park the 460 is 8 minutes behind the 454 if it is on time.

Surely these could be retimed to give a 15 minute daytime service to Sinnamon Park, Mt Ommaney shops and Jamboree stops.

Going further, couldn't the Jindalee Place and Jumbuck stops be moved around the corner and have the 454 run along Yallambee Rd and 453 stick to Arrabri Ave instead of using Yallambee Rd as per TT's suggestion of a while back.  While slightly slower for the 454 people in the week, it's a hell of a lot better than the 450 on weekends.  I would presume if this operating pattern were adopted the 453 could extend to Sumner Park to remove the need for the 460 there.  I guess still an issue with Sinnamon Park which would then only be served by the 106 and 103 services.

I still think that the plan I advanced here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5480.0 or something similar is the go.

[david]

Re-timing the 453/454/460 would be absolutely fantastic! At the moment, they all leave Mt Ommaney Shopping Centre within 10 minutes of each other, leaving a 20 minute gap. This could be a very good measure if a Centenary BUZ cannot be supported (in terms of patronage) at the moment.

In terms of Sinnamon Park, an increase in the frequency of the feeder services (103/106/468) could potentially handle the loss of services at the Sinnamon Park express stop.

And I don't think the extension of the 453 to Sumner Park is necessary. The stop has been permanently moved to Dandenong Rd in recent weeks due to the Sumners Road upgrade. Under the assumption that the 460 is to be permanently deleted, the Jamboree Heights stop is located very close by, and should be able to handle those passengers.

Being a local, I have many great ideas about how to restructure the routes in this area, none of which I can ever imagine coming to fruition.

[somebody]

Then what do you think of my red and green BUZ route plan to replace the 450/453/454/460 in the linked thread?  There have been other threads on this, but I can't find them.

[david]

I think this may be the thread you are looking for -> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4448.0

I do like your plan for the Green BUZ route. However, I do have one small reservation in the routing through Milton Rd. To be honest, there are any real destinations along Milton Road, hence why the Rockets use it. I just feel that to make a BUZ worthwhile, it needs to run along Moggill Rd/Coro Drive in order to capture those going to Indooroopilly/Toowong.

As for the Red BUZ route, I like that too. There is a need for a good service from the Centenary suburbs to UQ. I would actually prefer the route be identical to the 450 route, as that would capture a larger market and provide a better service, albeit a slower service.

What would your plans be for the rockets (455/456), the City Precincts (457/458/459) and the 452 feeder?

[somebody]

I don't think there needs to be additional service on the Moggil Rd+Coro.  There is plenty already.  I think adding a BUZ service along Milton Rd is a positive.  Currently people at the western end of Milton Rd languish with only the infrequent 470.  My main idea though is to have the bus go as near as possible to the way one would drive the route if you could turn right at Petrie Tce from Milton Rd.

My original idea in the thread you linked had some people needing to do a double interchange to reach UQ.  I think sending the red route to UQ is an upgrade to this.  It means people on the red route need to interchange to reach the CBD, best done at Jindalee, but if both are BUZes then it doesn't seem too onerous.  I wonder if reaching UQ via Lambert Rd and Carawa St is more achievable than what I had in my West Brisbane revamp which was via Carmody Rd?

As for the peak services, I'd have the 456 follow the red route from Mt Ommaney to the freeway rather than wind like it and the 453 currently do, and in the AM continue after QSBS B to Margaret St.  It's less easy to see what to do with the 455.  Green route people already have a fast route to the CBD full time though.  Perhaps continue the 455 along Sumners Rd like the Red route and then go via Dandenong Rd and the freeway from the Sinnamon Park roundabout to Margaret St via Milton Rd & QSBS.  Other options for the 455 are Riverhills Rd and the current route.  In the PM, the 455 & 456 rockets are probably best off becoming Charlotte St starts.  Anything is better than the current system there.  These changes abolish the need for the 457, 458 and 459.

I'm not a fan of your 450 to UQ plan.  Seems to be an excessive reluctance to have an interchange there.

As for the 452, I don't see the need for it in my plan.  The green route connects to Darra, so why bother?

[david]

I don't think there needs to be additional service on the Moggil Rd+Coro.  There is plenty already.  I think adding a BUZ service along Milton Rd is a positive.  Currently people at the western end of Milton Rd languish with only the infrequent 470.  My main idea though is to have the bus go as near as possible to the way one would drive the route if you could turn right at Petrie Tce from Milton Rd.

What do you think about still serving Indooroopilly and Toowong, but diverting the BUZ down Jephson Rd to travel down Milton Rd? Would it add too much travel time? I honestly think that if you live in the Riverhills area and you're travelling purely to the City, you should be going out to Darra Station. But we all know how obsessed Brisbane is with single-seat journeys, so I think people should need to pay (in terms of time) for this convenience.

Just another quick thought - I would like to see the Green BUZ routed through Riverhills Road and the Red BUZ take on Horizon Drive in an attempt to emulate the trunk-and-feeder model. I will post up maps when I get time to.

My original idea in the thread you linked had some people needing to do a double interchange to reach UQ.  I think sending the red route to UQ is an upgrade to this.  It means people on the red route need to interchange to reach the CBD, best done at Jindalee, but if both are BUZes then it doesn't seem too onerous.  I wonder if reaching UQ via Lambert Rd and Carawa St is more achievable than what I had in my West Brisbane revamp which was via Carmody Rd?

I don't think buses can travel on Carawa St. It's too bumpy and narrow and Brisbane Transport would need to provide vomit bags. But routing down Carmody Rd would provide a faster service. That depends though, because if you were to remove the 428 (as per your original plan) you would need to route it down Hawken Drive to replace the lost service.

As for the rockets, I need to take a closer look at the bus stop arrangements in the City. Generally though, I would love to get my hands on passenger numbers in order to really knuckle down which routing is best.

[somebody]

Yes, I think Moggill Rd + Jephson St would add far too much to travel time.  Probably around 15 minutes compared to just sticking to the freeway.  There might be a need for a peak time route along the green route to the Centenary Bridge and then UQ though.

I don't think you can expect people to travel backwards to then have to put up with an interchange at Darra.  That would be far too slow and people will just drive instead.

Your Riverhills Rd plan is interesting.  I guess people are able to use the green route to Darra and interchange.  Wouldn't sending the red route along Riverhills Rd make more sense though?

I don't think buses can travel on Carawa St. It's too bumpy and narrow and Brisbane Transport would need to provide vomit bags. But routing down Carmody Rd would provide a faster service. That depends though, because if you were to remove the 428 (as per your original plan) you would need to route it down Hawken Drive to replace the lost service.

As for the rockets, I need to take a closer look at the bus stop arrangements in the City. Generally though, I would love to get my hands on passenger numbers in order to really knuckle down which routing is best.

411 can provide the service along Hawken Dr to UQ.  If Carawa St is out, then that does leave Carmody Rd.

[Golliwog]

I don't know the route numbers but buses did used to run down Carmody. Apparently due to the hills on it, buses would semi-regularly be caught speeding through the dips to make it back up the next hill without slowing to a crawl.

If the red route went to UQ, would it be terminating there, or just going to the CBD via UQ?

[somebody]

If the red route went to UQ, would it be terminating there, or just going to the CBD via UQ?

Terminating.  If you are heading to the CBD it would make much more sense to interchange at Indooroopilly.

[Golliwog]

If the red route went to UQ, would it be terminating there, or just going to the CBD via UQ?

Terminating.  If you are heading to the CBD it would make much more sense to interchange at Indooroopilly.

True, but what about passengers that could be picked up between Indro-UQ?

[somebody]

The ones that can presently use 411 and 412 buses you mean?

[Golliwog]

Yeah those ones. If you're adding in a HF route, this would obviously be more attractive to a commuter than the 411 which has a frequency during peak that varies from 18 to 20 minutes, so they would likely want to use it to get to either Indro or UQ and change to CBD bound buses at either of those two. I don't see why you would have 2 HF routes terminating at UQ when they could easily be combined to give the passengers making the combined journey a simpler trip. Yes having a longer route would give rise to the greater chance of late running from traffic etc, but I hardly see that as a good reason.

[Gazza]

^Agreed, plus "late running" becomes a bit of an archaic thing to worry about on HF routes. Headway maintenance, and what users actually experience on the ground is more important IMO.

[somebody]

So this CBD extension from UQ would then parallel the 412 or replace it?  If the latter, don't you think that the reduction in reliability would be a problem for the current 412 users?

[Golliwog]

So this CBD extension from UQ would then parallel the 412 or replace it?  If the latter, don't you think that the reduction in reliability would be a problem for the current 412 users?

Replace. I don't think there would be that much of a reduction in reliability as delays due to traffic are usually factored into the timetable. As Gazza said, it's really the headway that is the important thing. A bus from St Lucia to the CBD between 7am and 8am is going to take roughly the same amount of time. It doesn't matter to them if the bus they catch is running late as long as there's still a bus every 5-10 minutes.

[Gazza]

don't you think that the reduction in reliability would be a problem for the current 412 users?

No, because that route is the mother of all TUAGs. I don't think anybody would consult a timetable prior to boarding that route....Plus there are PIDs at the stops which kind of keep people placated that a bus is coming soon.

[somebody]

It's only every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes in the peak direction.  I'd put my hand up for consulting a timetable for that kind of service.

[Gazza]

But its Uni students though...

[Golliwog]

But its Uni students though...

+1. Fairly laid back when it comes to timing.

It's only every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes in the peak direction.  I'd put my hand up for consulting a timetable for that kind of service.

It depends though. If you take it to also be replacing the 427/428(/432?) which run between Indro and UQ, those are better than 15 minutes off-peak  (Sort of, its not even) so you would at least be matching those frequencies. 412 does also run every 5 minutes in the counter peak direction, which is probably also why uni students are fairly lax with the timetable.

[david]

I think this discussion just goes to show the need for an entire Brisbane West region review. You can't change services in the Mt Ommaney area without affecting somewhere as far away as UQ!

Talking of which, I quite like the turn-up-and-go model that they have for the 402/412 at the moment. The only tweak I would make is to turn the 402 into a non-stop feeder between Toowong and UQ. Some may argue that this is better suited to the 412, but the 412 doesn't exist purely for UQ students/staff - th 402 does.

Combining a Riverhills/Mt Ommaney to UQ BUZ service with the 412 BUZ is an interesting proposal. I probably wouldn't do it as a one-seat journey though, in an attempt to encourage transfers with what are high-frequency services. But if it saves TransLink paying for extra buses, because of reduced layover time, then why not?

[somebody]

But its Uni students though...

+1. Fairly laid back when it comes to timing.

There are people using the 412 besides Uni students!

[Golliwog]

But its Uni students though...

+1. Fairly laid back when it comes to timing.

There are people using the 412 besides Uni students!

This is true, but even with a 15 minutes frequency I can't see them using a timetable other than to find out at what minute in each 15 minutes the bus is meant to leave, and even then only once or twice.

[Mr X]

But its Uni students though...

+2!

Each time I have gone to uni via the city, I take the 412 over the 109 mainly to avoid the annoying walk from UQ Lakes. I sit at the Adelaide St terminus and wait for the first 412 to come, don't bother looking at the timetable.
Going to Toowong is even better, with the 402 and the 412, you can use common stops at both UQ and Toowong and know you won't miss a bus! You'd be surprised how many uni students arrive at that Toowong stop in a 10min timeframe, even on weekends.
.
(btw, what is a TUAG?)

[Gazza]

TUAG = Turn up and go.

Thing is.
I mean I guess people might read a timetable if they are going on the 412 from UQ to a destination between and Toowong and the CBD.

But both the UQ-Toowong and Toowong-CBD legs have overlapping routes that really do negate the need for a timetable.

[Golliwog]

You take the 412 over the 109 in the city? I usually go the 109 as it doesn't get caught up in traffic. Though I suppose it depends where on campus you're going to. I'm in the Hawken building which is closer to Chancellors Place than UQ Lakes, but choose the lakes, even before I started transfering at Park Rd.

[somebody]

I'd hate for the overall positives of the plan I was suggesting to be made more difficult to implement by attaching a poison pill like attaching the 412 onto the end of the red route.

You still are only thinking of the Uni students.  People do actually live along Sir Fred Schonell Dr and also go to places besides UQ, and these people wouldn't want their reliability to be reduced!

[Golliwog]

I'd hate for the overall positives of the plan I was suggesting to be made more difficult to implement by attaching a poison pill like attaching the 412 onto the end of the red route.

You still are only thinking of the Uni students.  People do actually live along Sir Fred Schonell Dr and also go to places besides UQ, and these people wouldn't want their reliability to be reduced!

But I still think these people aren't overly concerned about the reliability in terms of "Did the 7.15 service turn up at 7.15, or was it running late?" but about reliability in terms of "is there a bus roughly every x minutes?"

[somebody]

I'd hate for the overall positives of the plan I was suggesting to be made more difficult to implement by attaching a poison pill like attaching the 412 onto the end of the red route.

You still are only thinking of the Uni students.  People do actually live along Sir Fred Schonell Dr and also go to places besides UQ, and these people wouldn't want their reliability to be reduced!

But I still think these people aren't overly concerned about the reliability in terms of "Did the 7.15 service turn up at 7.15, or was it running late?" but about reliability in terms of "is there a bus roughly every x minutes?"

Traffic congestion can easily cause bunching which increases the actual headway above the theoretical headway.

[Golliwog]

Just something to add to this, but in terms of operations, if you had two high frequency routes terminating at Chancellors Place (the 412 does terminate at Hawken Village, but practically the same) then there could be potential benefits in combing the two routes to reduce the time a bus is out of service between runs. You also potentially increase the profitability of the route if you can design the route so that the bus will fill up and empty a number of times along its length, which is something I can see happening if you had a route running CBD-UQ-Indro-Mt Ommaney

[Set in train]

Any closer to a BUZ for Centenary suburbs?

Due to the distance out of town, a 5am start is necessary to connect with services in town for early starters.