On time running - the facts and fiction

[Fares_Fair]

I checked with Queensland Rail today regarding on time running statistics in light of the Sunshine Coast's particularly poor results over the last 2 and 1/2 months.

There is some confusion over what the current yard stick is.
We have been told a number of differing time frames in our CRG meetings ranging from 2 minutes either way (late or early), to 3 minutes.
Not to mention some comments seen on RBoT here that say 6 minutes if from the Sunshine Coast or Gold Coast.

The Transport Services Contract (TSC) states that the measurement is a percentage of services within 3 minutes 59 seconds of the timetable - and that can be late or early.
There is no mention of the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast lines having differing measuring criteria.

There is also a Force Majeure component where the delay is outside of QR's control - and this can include bad weather, life threatening situations and cars through boom gates etc.
These situations are not included in the results.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Golliwog]

Do speed restrictions due to track work count as Force Majeure?

[somebody]

Do speed restrictions due to track work count as Force Majeure?

Not sure how that can be argued to be out of the control of QR.

[Golliwog]

I don't think it would count, but from a purely operational viewpoint, they have no choice but to follow the reduced speed.

[Fares_Fair]

I checked with Queensland Rail today regarding on time running statistics in light of the Sunshine Coast's particularly poor results over the last 2 and 1/2 months.

There is some confusion over what the current yard stick is.
We have been told a number of differing time frames in our CRG meetings ranging from 2 minutes either way (late or early), to 3 minutes.
Not to mention some comments seen on RBoT here that say 6 minutes if from the Sunshine Coast or Gold Coast.

The Transport Services Contract (TSC) states that the measurement is a percentage of services within 3 minutes 59 seconds of the timetable - and that can be late or early.
There is no mention of the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast lines having differing measuring criteria.

There is also a Force Majeure component where the delay is outside of QR's control - and this can include bad weather, life threatening situations and cars through boom gates etc.
These situations are not included in the results.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

THIS FROM THE LATEST TRANSLINK TRACKER REPORT

Footnote
* Less than four minutes (before or after) the scheduled arrival times on all lines, except Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast where the benchmark is within six minutes.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

I think closing the door one second before the stated departure time is too early.  And I don't think that is too extreme.

[ozbob]

I think closing the door one second before the stated departure time is too early.  And I don't think that is too extreme.

Yes, it is very rare for a train to run early, if they are they are held as a rule.  The standards are just a ruse of sorts ... 

[mufreight]

The cardinal rule for public transport has always been NEVER RUN EARLY and try not to run late.
The figures that Translink quotes for bus ontime performance sharing streets with other traffic is pure fabrication, could be credible for routes that operate entirely on a segregated busway but with the routes used here in Brisbane and normal street running, pure fantasy

[somebody]

I think closing the door one second before the stated departure time is too early.  And I don't think that is too extreme.

Yes, it is very rare for a train to run early, if they are they are held as a rule.  The standards are just a ruse of sorts ... 

I don't think it's as rare as what you are suggesting at all.

[ozbob]

Every time I have been on a train running early on the suburban network it has been held somewhere to bring it back on time, well before the CBD or its ultimate destination.

Cooroy on the 4th October was 2 minute early arrival I recall, rare event!   

[Mozz]

Not that rare on the Ipswich line with the new timetable I have seen it myself on quite a few occasions, luckily have yet to be caught out by it, it must be frustrating for the drivers (outside of peak) to constantly have to go slow and monitor and check they aren't early.

Oxley to Roma Street 1995 20 mins peak and offpeak
Oxley to Roma Street 2011 23 mins peak and offpeak

[ozbob]

Indeed, but it is the guards that monitor the times and timetable.  And give the ROW for the train.

[somebody]

But if a train runs early at any point in the run people who got to the station on time can miss the train.  That is the point IMO.

[petey3801]

But if a train runs early at any point in the run people who got to the station on time can miss the train.  That is the point IMO.

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Regarding closing of the doors, the departure time is (say for 5:50pm) 17:00:00. At the zero second mark, that train can/should/will depart, which means the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world. If someone misses the train because the train departed ON TIME, they are late and should have planned ahead to be at the station at least 2 minutes before departure.

[somebody]

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Not always.  That is what I am saying.

the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world.

Where is it advertised?

CityRail do it the same, apparently, and it is advertised somewhere on their website, but it would be easier to understand if this rule didn't exist and trains didn't start to depart until :00.

[Fares_Fair]

Indeed, but it is the guards that monitor the times and timetable.  And give the ROW for the train.

What does ROW stand for ?
You'd think after almost 12 years train travel I would know by now.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

right of way

[Fares_Fair]

right of way

Thanks ozbob.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[petey3801]

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Not always.  That is what I am saying.

the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world.

Where is it advertised?

CityRail do it the same, apparently, and it is advertised somewhere on their website, but it would be easier to understand if this rule didn't exist and trains didn't start to depart until :00.

If they leave before the time (c'mon, xx:xx:55 or 59 or something is just bull$#it nitpicking...) then that is wrong and shouldn't happen. Anyone who misses a train because it left EARLY (more than 10-15 seconds...) has every right to make a complaint.

As for advertised... I take back the clearly part.. It used to be advertised, however a quick search on the QR site didn't turn much up. Either way, if you arrive at the station at xx:01:59 and expect to get the xx:01:00 train, you've got no right to complain. Get to the station at least 2mins early and you won't miss the train. Simple.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Not always.  That is what I am saying.

the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world.

Where is it advertised?

CityRail do it the same, apparently, and it is advertised somewhere on their website, but it would be easier to understand if this rule didn't exist and trains didn't start to depart until :00.

If they leave before the time (c'mon, xx:xx:55 or 59 or something is just bull$#it nitpicking...) then that is wrong and shouldn't happen. Anyone who misses a train because it left EARLY (more than 10-15 seconds...) has every right to make a complaint.

As for advertised... I take back the clearly part.. It used to be advertised, however a quick search on the QR site didn't turn much up. Either way, if you arrive at the station at xx:01:59 and expect to get the xx:01:00 train, you've got no right to complain. Get to the station at least 2mins early and you won't miss the train. Simple.

Yeah, QR always stated that passengers should arrive and purchase tickets before the 2 minute scheduled departure time.

[somebody]

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Not always.  That is what I am saying.

the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world.

Where is it advertised?

CityRail do it the same, apparently, and it is advertised somewhere on their website, but it would be easier to understand if this rule didn't exist and trains didn't start to depart until :00.

If they leave before the time (c'mon, xx:xx:55 or 59 or something is just bull$#it nitpicking...) then that is wrong and shouldn't happen. Anyone who misses a train because it left EARLY (more than 10-15 seconds...) has every right to make a complaint.

As for advertised... I take back the clearly part.. It used to be advertised, however a quick search on the QR site didn't turn much up. Either way, if you arrive at the station at xx:01:59 and expect to get the xx:01:00 train, you've got no right to complain. Get to the station at least 2mins early and you won't miss the train. Simple.

The majority of times I see a train depart early are Bowen Hills terminators, departing early at Roma St, Central or even South Brisbane, or the last few trains of the night O/B which all gain on the timetable and usually don't wait for it until I get off at least.  Every now and then you'll see a train depart early at more important locations, but perhaps QR have cracked down on this lately.  Usually by a minute or two is what I'm talking about.

[petey3801]

Hence the reason the guards hold the train at the station until the train is ontime!!

Not always.  That is what I am saying.

the doors will start closing up to 20 seconds before (so the train can reliably depart on-time). This is clearly advertised by QR and most, if not all, railways around the country/world.

Where is it advertised?

CityRail do it the same, apparently, and it is advertised somewhere on their website, but it would be easier to understand if this rule didn't exist and trains didn't start to depart until :00.

If they leave before the time (c'mon, xx:xx:55 or 59 or something is just bull$#it nitpicking...) then that is wrong and shouldn't happen. Anyone who misses a train because it left EARLY (more than 10-15 seconds...) has every right to make a complaint.

As for advertised... I take back the clearly part.. It used to be advertised, however a quick search on the QR site didn't turn much up. Either way, if you arrive at the station at xx:01:59 and expect to get the xx:01:00 train, you've got no right to complain. Get to the station at least 2mins early and you won't miss the train. Simple.

The majority of times I see a train depart early are Bowen Hills terminators, departing early at Roma St, Central or even South Brisbane, or the last few trains of the night O/B which all gain on the timetable and usually don't wait for it until I get off at least.  Every now and then you'll see a train depart early at more important locations, but perhaps QR have cracked down on this lately.  Usually by a minute or two is what I'm talking about.

Bowen Hills/Roma Street terminators do run early through the City, but this is due to there being a number of other services able to be used to travel through the City and is not forbidden, for one reason or another. As for Bowen Hills terminators running early Park Road/South Bank/South Bris, this is up to Control. Every now and then in Peak, Control will advise one of these trains to run early in order to keep out of a through trains' way or something of the sort.

[Fares_Fair]

I checked with Queensland Rail today regarding on time running statistics in light of the Sunshine Coast's particularly poor results over the last 2 and 1/2 months.

There is some confusion over what the current yard stick is.
We have been told a number of differing time frames in our CRG meetings ranging from 2 minutes either way (late or early), to 3 minutes.
Not to mention some comments seen on RBoT here that say 6 minutes if from the Sunshine Coast or Gold Coast.

The Transport Services Contract (TSC) states that the measurement is a percentage of services within 3 minutes 59 seconds of the timetable - and that can be late or early.
There is no mention of the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast lines having differing measuring criteria.

There is also a Force Majeure component where the delay is outside of QR's control - and this can include bad weather, life threatening situations and cars through boom gates etc.
These situations are not included in the results.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

THIS FROM THE LATEST TRANSLINK TRACKER REPORT

Footnote
* Less than four minutes (before or after) the scheduled arrival times on all lines, except Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast where the benchmark is within six minutes.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Does anyone know why there is a difference between what the Transport Services Contract states for on time performance and what Translink show in their Tracker Q4 report ?
i.e. The contract states within 3 minutes and 59 seconds for services but Translink state the additional 6 minutes for Gold and Sunshine Coast services, this is not covered by the contract.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Golliwog]

As a case in point, I had a City service depart Ferny Grove 1 minute early on me the other morning. I had touched on 2 minutes early and noticed my balance was very low so turned around to quickly head over to the ticket machine to top up when the guard blew the whistle so I ran for the train, the guard saw me, and closed the doors when I was a few metres away.

As an aside, petey3801, does QR have any policy about where on a platform a 3 car train stops? Because I've noticed that at FG they tend to stop as close to the city end as possible, which also contributed to me missing that train above.

[SurfRail]

There is an article in this month's Railway Digest about RailCorp's timekeeping system, which it appears may now be the most reliable system in Australia.

How is AEST actually monitored and followed by QR?

[petey3801]

3-car trains have a black with white dot stopping mark on all platforms. However, as they tend to be moved from time to time, at non-terminus stations it is sometimes difficult to remember where they are all located. They generally seem to be gravitating towards the 6-car marks on a lot of stations. Can't remember where it is at Ferny, but i'm pretty sure it is around half-way.

[somebody]

3-car trains have a black with white dot stopping mark on all platforms. However, as they tend to be moved from time to time, at non-terminus stations it is sometimes difficult to remember where they are all located. They generally seem to be gravitating towards the 6-car marks on a lot of stations. Can't remember where it is at Ferny, but i'm pretty sure it is around half-way.

I think that there should be a better way of handling the case where the rear 3 cars are locked on a 6 car unit.  Obviously, I/B at Sherwood you still need to stop on the 6 car mark, so perhaps a different colour 3 car stopping dot on those stations?

[HappyTrainGuy]

A little extra walking isn't going to kill you. You also have to remember that the disabled gathering area has to match up to roughly to the guards area  

[Fares_Fair]

A little extra walking isn't going to kill you. You also have to remember that the disabled gathering area has to match up to roughly to the guards area  

he had to run ... 

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Golliwog]

Haha, I have no issue with the extra distance itself or running, just that the train was leaving early and if had been at the FG end of the platform I would have made it, even if the guard still chose to ignore me.

[somebody]

A little extra walking isn't going to kill you. You also have to remember that the disabled gathering area has to match up to roughly to the guards area  

Perhaps not but it is annoying when a train pulls in and you suddenly discover that the rear 3 cars are locked, then you have to hurry to the front 3 cars.  It would be helpful if people could at least be forewarned.  General announcements like "rear 3 cars may be locked on some services" don't cut the mustard.

[Fares_Fair]

A little extra walking isn't going to kill you. You also have to remember that the disabled gathering area has to match up to roughly to the guards area  

Perhaps not but it is annoying when a train pulls in and you suddenly discover that the rear 3 cars are locked, then you have to hurry to the front 3 cars.  It would be helpful if people could at least be forewarned.  General announcements like "rear 3 cars may be locked on some services" don't cut the mustard.

It would be imperative given the circumstances described by 'golden feet' Golli. 

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Then people shouldn't stand at the far ends of platforms in the middle of the night even after hearing that the rear carriages may be locked as is the case at Central. Case in point a couple weeks ago at Central I overheard someone yelling on their phone that it was the fourth time this week that his train had the rear closed off. So the next night I went for a little walk and guess where he sat.... the very far end of the platform. If you don't get the hint after experiencing it 4 pervious times or after several announcements that trains may have the rear closed for something they've been doing since the 80's then boo hoo tough luck.

Its also interesting to note that since Translink took over they got rid of the train and platform descriptions in timetables (drawing of a 3 and 6 car train, telling that the rear may be closed off after 6pm and to board the train from the front of the service).

[SurfRail]

Then people shouldn't stand at the far ends of platforms in the middle of the night even after hearing that the rear carriages may be locked as is the case at Central. Case in point a couple weeks ago at Central I overheard someone yelling on their phone that it was the fourth time this week that his train had the rear closed off. So the next night I went for a little walk and guess where he sat.... the very far end of the platform. If you don't get the hint after experiencing it 4 pervious times or after several announcements that trains may have the rear closed for something they've been doing since the 80's then boo hoo tough luck.

Its also interesting to note that since Translink took over they got rid of the train and platform descriptions in timetables (drawing of a 3 and 6 car train, telling that the rear may be closed off after 6pm and to board the train from the front of the service).

This would be a lot easier with DOO, as you would have the same stopping mark for every service.

[somebody]

Then people shouldn't stand at the far ends of platforms in the middle of the night even after hearing that the rear carriages may be locked

Perhaps not but don't you think that the current arrangements aren't working very well, and resulting in longer dwell times?

SurfRail, how's DOO an issue?  The guard doesn't move at present so if 3 cars stop at a different point then presumably the wheelchair point is also different.

[SurfRail]

SurfRail, how's DOO an issue?  The guard doesn't move at present so if 3 cars stop at a different point then presumably the wheelchair point is also different.

At present in QRLand, the wheelchair boarding point is at the middle of the platform.  This is always where the guard is meant to be, but the location can variy because the 3 car stopping mark is usually not where the 6 car mark is.

With DOO, you would only ever have one stopping mark on any platform - at the end closest to the train's destination.  This is where you would always be guaranteed of having boarding assistance and an open carriage as it is where the front 3 cars would always arrive, whether it was a 3 or 6 car consist, or a 6 car consist with the rear 3 closed off.  Thus, your PWD facilities would always be at the end of the platform, as in Melbourne.

At Greenwood Station in Perth for instance, they have signs specifically telling people to move down the outbound platform to the Clarkson end, as that is where even 2-car A-sets pull up - even though notionally it might be "better" for the train to pull up at the southern end of the platform where the concourse and only exit is located. 

It makes it simple and idiotproof, and in particular for Perth, avoids drivers pulling up short when they have a longer consist (given you can have 2, 3, 4 or 6 cars).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Nope, I don't see how a 3 car train running at night presents a forced longer dwell time. If that was the case the 11.22pm Caboolture-Roma Street train to Virginia would be scheduled for running faster than the 7.43am Caboolture-Roma Street train to Virginia. One is in the middle of peak hour and the other one is at close to midnight yet both are on a 43 minute timetable from Caboolture-Virginia.

Yep. Lets let Queensland Rail bring up DOO again to see how well Queensland operates when every single train driver in Queensland going on strike similar to the early 90's which was the last time IIRC where no trains in QLD were ran for an entire day. Abeit today it wouldn't be as devestating with QRN/PNQ still operating freight trains but it would be a giant f**** you to South East Queensland and millions of passengers/drivers/families/schools/workers and anyone venturing outside of their home.

[somebody]

Is the 3 car point displaced from the 6 car point by the distance between the 6th and 7th vestibules on a 6 car train?  If it isn't these problems still exist with or without DOO.

Nope, I don't see how a 3 car train running at night presents a forced longer dwell time. If that was the case the 11.22pm Caboolture-Roma Street train to Virginia would be scheduled for running faster than the 7.43am Caboolture-Roma Street train to Virginia. One is in the middle of peak hour and the other one is at close to midnight yet both are on a 43 minute timetable from Caboolture-Virginia.

Well no doubt the longer dwell time is not noticed as otherwise the timetable would be far too fat when the rear 3 cars are locked.

It seems very noticeable to me that the trains need to wait longer than normal when people need to move forward to get on them.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You might be delayed what? 20 seconds.... during a time when trains aren't heavily used, dwell times are naturally shorter and train performance is better.

[SurfRail]

Yep. Lets let Queensland Rail bring up DOO again to see how well Queensland operates when every single train driver in Queensland going on strike similar to the early 90's which was the last time IIRC where no trains in QLD were ran for an entire day. Abeit today it wouldn't be as devestating with QRN/PNQ still operating freight trains but it would be a giant f**** you to South East Queensland and millions of passengers/drivers/families/schools/workers and anyone venturing outside of their home.

Yawn.  Other cities somehow seem to survive.  What's so special about QR traincrew?

I'd rather be inconvenienced a few days than have to pay the salaries of a second crewperson on every train when clearly they are not required.  Get them driving!