Beenleigh line station spacing

[O_128]

If trains have to stop all stations to loganlea at least close holmview,

[SurfRail]

I would suggest:

- Close Holmview and run better bus services into Beenleigh.
- Amalgamate Salisbury and Rocklea.
- Close Dutton Park and get people to use the busway.
- Realign the blasted Trinder Park stretch!

[Arnz]

Don't the GC services usually dwell 4 minutes or so at South Bank in the morning peak anyway?  I'm sure a couple of extra stops to GC services in peak periods  to maximise capacity on the Beenleigh line won't effect the travel time that much (at most 3-4 minutes extra). 

Like us dwellers up north complained about extra "fat" on Caboolture and Sunshine Coast expresses in peak, I'm fairly sure the same planners may tell the GCers to "suck it up" as well by using the reasoning that "we'll be leaving 3k+ extra passengers behind by 'chewing' up track capacity" if we don't stop at extra stations between Kuraby and Beenleigh.

[somebody]

I would suggest:

- Close Holmview and run better bus services into Beenleigh.
- Amalgamate Salisbury and Rocklea.
- Close Dutton Park and get people to use the busway.
- Realign the blasted Trinder Park stretch!

Dutton Park isn't near the busway.  Do you mean the stop near the Eleanor Schonell bridge?  Still a further walk for quite a few.

I think Salisbury+Rocklea amalgamation isn't likely, although I would say a Beaudesert Rd station has some merit.  Coopers Plains-Salisbury is already a 2km gap.  Not sure about Holmview.

[colinw]

I would love to cull some stations on the Beenleigh line, although alas the S2K project locked in the tight spacing from Kuraby to Coopers Plains.

Ideally (IMHO):

- Rocklea & Salisbury combined to a station just south of the old Nyanda (opens up curve easing at Salisbury).
- Fruitgrove & Runcorn combined to a single station about midway between the two (but removes a potentially useful interchange with the 150).
- Can't really see doing anything useful from there to Coopers, although I would like to have a single station instead of Sunnybank & Banoon.
- There  are too many stations between Yeerongpilly & Park Road, but can't see removing one being viable as all are reasonably used. CRR fixes the problem anyway (assuming it ever happens).

Further out, as SurfRail says the Trinder Park curves are a big problem, as are the curves through Kingston (but harder to correct), and arguably there is one too many stations between Bethania & Beenleigh.

[O_128]

^ homview is 1km from beenleigh, cull it.

[Golliwog]

^ homview is 1km from beenleigh, cull it.

Haha, just thinking about that logic being applied to the Ferny Grove line 

[Mr X]

Dutton Park isn't near the busway.  Do you mean the stop near the Eleanor Schonell bridge?  Still a further walk for quite a few.

Agreed!
Just because it has the same name =/= it's in the same location. It's a 10 min walk away, past two sets of slow lights, too. If you closed DP, people would have to take the 196 to Fairfield for Beenleigh trains and the 196 to the city.

[O_128]

^ homview is 1km from beenleigh, cull it.

Haha, just thinking about that logic being applied to the Ferny Grove line 

difference is there is nothing around holmview and 95% of people would use beenleigh for express trains.

[somebody]

Thread split off.

[Gazza]

Agree with much of the above.
I dunno why there has to be this notion that station being there = good and untouchable.
It is ok for a network to "Grow up" and get rid of stations that were perhaps relevant for the steam era, or existed for an industry that was once adjacent, but no longer is. Its been done in the past, there are a couple on the Beenleigh line as it is, such as the one between South Bank and Park Rd, and that one near Sailsbury!

PS, a arguing a station justifies its existence to "relieve carparking from xxxxxx" is not a good enough reason. It's stupid to be delaying passengers all day long, just for the convenience of a handful of people who parked there in the morning.  Expand the car park (If that is worth pursuing at all) at the other station instead, even if it means building up.

Nor is it a good enough argument that "People nearby would find it useful". You know, a station halfway between Corinda and Oxley would be useful to some, after all, its near the swimming pool, would allow kids to walk easily to the high school, has an old folks home nearby so mobility for them, and there is a pocket of medium density housing.
Yet its a silly idea to suggest this isn't it?

So why do the same in reverse, and maintain redundant stations for the sake of it? Obviously, if a station is holding its own then don't touch it.

People bang on about how successful Perth has been at growing from a low base to fast approaching Brisbane's patronage...Well, part of the success is that stations are a good 3-4km apart on average (Though this drops off in areas of higher density), which keeps trains travelling fast (Subsequently reducing running costs), is more popular with pax (Eg it wins more pax to have a faster train, then a slower one with more walkup due to more stations, in low density situations), and simplifies the feeder bus network, since it is built around fewer, but stronger nodes. Transperth have said this themselves.

I think a good strategy would be to amalgamate stations when it comes time to fully upgrade them. The new station can be built with straight platforms etc.

[somebody]

I agree with what you are saying, Gazza.  One of the prime candidates for station closure in SEQ would be Gailes - far better trade than anything on the Beenleigh line.

Closing stations like Dutton Park should be combined with ramping up of bus services, and I didn't see anything about that in the above.

Similarly merging Salisbury and Rocklea would probably cost around $50m and see perhaps a small benefit.  Feeder services would be quite annoying this close to the CBD, and I wouldn't think running more buses near train lines would be supported.  Running more services on existing lines would cost a fraction of that and see a big improvement.  Surely this is the priority, and where I am coming from.  Similarly station closures would attract a lot of opposition.

[ozbob]

Have you been to Gailes? 

I don't think it will closing for a while yet.  The fact is if it wasn't there a lot of people would not be able to catch a train at present.  There are real issues for commuters accessing public transport due to very poor feeder services and limited parking all along the line.

If parking was tripled at Goodna and/or Wacol it might be a possibility, but that would take anywhere up to 3-5 years hence, which by that time the whole dynamic around Gailes would have probably changed in any case.  When Springfield opens, that might reduce pressure on Goodna/Gailes/Wacol and could allow a rationalisation.


Moorooka is one station that post CRR could go as well.  This would lead to some savings in rebuilding and facilitate Clapham stabling.

But as Simon as suggested, local opposition would be fierce and the local pollies would be very protective.

[somebody]

Have you been to Gailes? 

I don't think it will closing for a while yet.  The fact is if it wasn't there a lot of people would not be able to catch a train at present.  There are real issues for commuters accessing public transport due to very poor feeder services and limited parking all along the line.

If parking was tripled at Goodna and/or Wacol it might be a possibility, but that would take anywhere up to 3-5 years hence, which by that time the whole dynamic around Gailes would have probably changed in any case.  When Springfield opens, that might reduce pressure on Goodna/Gailes/Wacol and could allow a rationalisation.


Moorooka is one station that post CRR could go as well.  This would lead to some savings in rebuilding and facilitate Clapham stabling.

But as Simon as suggested, local opposition would be fierce and the local pollies would be very protective.

In the sense of getting off a train there, no I haven't been to Gailes.

The issues you are referring to could be resolved with improved feeder services.  Gailes has approximately 0 walk up patronage.  It seems that it is only there to serve the car park which isn't even very large.  This is also inferred in the stats.  I agree with you though that it won't be closing for a while yet, and if the Redbank triple goes through presumably it won't be served by Ipswich trains in peak anyway, which removes much of the incentive for closure.  There is similarly low incentive for closure of Holmview as its the last station not served by the Gold Coast trains so few people are getting a benefit of a faster trip.

I'd be pretty surprised if Moorooka went as that station is pretty well loaded in spite of being accessible only from one side of tracks and also fairly close to Yeerongpilly and Rocklea.

[somebody]

Closing stations like Dutton Park should be combined with ramping up of bus services, and I didn't see anything about that in the above.

This could actually be done with no additional frequencies weekday daytimes.  Return the 105 to Annerley Rd, consolidate 112, 116, 105 on either Adelaide St or Alice St (I prefer the former), and coordinate the timetable for a 15 minute frequency off peak.  Similar in peak but you only have the 112 and 116 to work with.  This would require extended operating hours and extra evening and weekend trips on all of those routes though.

[mufreight]

Have you been to Gailes? 

I don't think it will closing for a while yet.  The fact is if it wasn't there a lot of people would not be able to catch a train at present.  There are real issues for commuters accessing public transport due to very poor feeder services and limited parking all along the line.

If parking was tripled at Goodna and/or Wacol it might be a possibility, but that would take anywhere up to 3-5 years hence, which by that time the whole dynamic around Gailes would have probably changed in any case.  When Springfield opens, that might reduce pressure on Goodna/Gailes/Wacol and could allow a rationalisation.


Moorooka is one station that post CRR could go as well.  This would lead to some savings in rebuilding and facilitate Clapham stabling.

But as Simon as suggested, local opposition would be fierce and the local pollies would be very protective.

In the sense of getting off a train there, no I haven't been to Gailes.

The issues you are referring to could be resolved with improved feeder services.  Gailes has approximately 0 walk up patronage.  It seems that it is only there to serve the car park which isn't even very large.  This is also inferred in the stats.  I agree with you though that it won't be closing for a while yet, and if the Redbank triple goes through presumably it won't be served by Ipswich trains in peak anyway, which removes much of the incentive for closure.  There is similarly low incentive for closure of Holmview as its the last station not served by the Gold Coast trains so few people are getting a benefit of a faster trip.

I'd be pretty surprised if Moorooka went as that station is pretty well loaded in spite of being accessible only from one side of tracks and also fairly close to Yeerongpilly and Rocklea.

Sorry Simon but Gailes has a considerable walk up patronage not only of those resident in the immediate area but also workers in the Wacol Industrial estate and some workers from the Wolston Memtal Health facility.   

[somebody]

Wolston Park is ages away and about as close to Wacol.  I don't see that one.  There may be the odd trip to the Industrial estate. 

2009 survey showed 93 peak inbound boardings and 30 peak inbound alightings.  You believe that justifies the station (unless you think it's increased), but I'm not convinced.

[Gazza]

If parking was tripled at Goodna and/or Wacol it might be a possibility,

Triple the amount of people park at Gailes compared Goodna!?!?

but that would take anywhere up to 3-5 years hence, which by that time the whole dynamic around Gailes would have probably changed in any case.

I think in 3-5 years it will still be a golf course and a concrete manufacturer occupying the main radius around the station.

Sorry Simon but Gailes has a considerable walk up patronage not only of those resident in the immediate area but also workers in the Wacol Industrial estate and some workers from the Wolston Memtal Health facility.

Well, all stations would have some walk up patronage with respect to those people at the industrial estate (Remember my outlandish suggestion of a station halfway between Corinda and Oxley?)
The question is weather its enough to warrant having the stations.

But you're wrong about there being a significant walk from residents, because its a 1200m walk from the station to the very top corner of the residential area (The residential area bounded by the Ipswich and Logan Motorways)
Do you even look at urban form when making your statements?

Also, for the Wolston Asylum, its a 1480m walk from Gailes to the front gate, which is also not that walk able.

[somebody]

(Remember my outlandish suggestion of a station halfway between Corinda and Oxley?)

That's not that outlandish, although I'd hate for it to happen.  It would make PT more attractive for a few, but would also be expensive - not just a matter of adding side platforms.

I must say that I am most impressed that Gloucester St station (between South Bank and Park Rd) was closed.  That was a very positive move which would have had a bit of opposition.  Something I can only see Sir Joh getting done.

[Golliwog]

^ homview is 1km from beenleigh, cull it.

Haha, just thinking about that logic being applied to the Ferny Grove line 

difference is there is nothing around holmview and 95% of people would use beenleigh for express trains.

The express bit is about the only difference between that and the Ferny Grove line. I think stations like Oxford Park and Grovely could be closed if work was done to improve the bus links in those areas. But seeing as both those stations were only recently done up, I doubt it would happen. That said, I don't think the FG should be optimised for speed. It isn't that slow anyway, rather work on increasing the potential of each station, making the potential for walk up and interchange much easier. Also work on increasing density around the stations. Though there are so many things that limit this on the FG line. The Keperra Gold course cuts of a lot of Ferny Hills and Arana Hills, and this is continued on by the Kedron Brook in to about Alderley, with the only roads that cross it being the majors that are congested and usually indirect.

[#Metro]

I think removal of stations, although desirable from a speed perspective, would have obvious problems.
The beenleigh and Ipswich lines are slow slow slow because the trains stop absolutely everywhere and it takes forever to get where you want.

Of course no-one want's their station to get the chop for the overall benefit.

Things to improve journey times on Beenleigh and Ipswich lines:

1. Look at the stations and spacings. I'm not sure when these stations came into effect but they're likely built a long time ago
when the city was different. Should Dutton Park station be removed? The answer will be- how much time would it save? What would the cost be?

2. Frequency. Boosting the frequency can easily save 15 minutes on a round trip or up to 30 minutes overall in the worst case scenario and improve interchange opportunities.


3. Running patterns. The Beenleigh and Ipswich line can be broken up into two tiers. Where would be draw the line on that?
City to Rocklea? City to Sunnybank? That would save more time.

Public transport must be fast and frequent if people are to choose it over their cars and the system is to be well run. At the moment, it is a shambles. It takes too much time to wait and too long to get where you want to go.

Density around stations will help but won't help the speed or the frequency- the service must be attractive and have benefits to use. Simply placing lots of people around a rotten apple cart is going to increase the numbers of people buying rotten apples, but only marginally when compared to placing people around an apple cart that actually sells quality product.

[somebody]

1. Look at the stations and spacings. I'm not sure when these stations came into effect but they're likely built a long time ago
when the city was different. Should Dutton Park station be removed? The answer will be- how much time would it save? What would the cost be?

If the original plan for a CRR portal north of Fairfield had been implemented, then absolutely.

[mufreight]

If parking was tripled at Goodna and/or Wacol it might be a possibility,

Triple the amount of people park at Gailes compared Goodna!?!?

but that would take anywhere up to 3-5 years hence, which by that time the whole dynamic around Gailes would have probably changed in any case.

I think in 3-5 years it will still be a golf course and a concrete manufacturer occupying the main radius around the station.

Sorry Simon but Gailes has a considerable walk up patronage not only of those resident in the immediate area but also workers in the Wacol Industrial estate and some workers from the Wolston Memtal Health facility.

Well, all stations would have some walk up patronage with respect to those people at the industrial estate (Remember my outlandish suggestion of a station halfway between Corinda and Oxley?)
The question is weather its enough to warrant having the stations.

But you're wrong about there being a significant walk from residents, because its a 1200m walk from the station to the very top corner of the residential area (The residential area bounded by the Ipswich and Logan Motorways)
Do you even look at urban form when making your statements?

Also, for the Wolston Asylum, its a 1480m walk from Gailes to the front gate, which is also not that walk able.

Most walk up through the golf course to the Park, as for the numbers boarding and disembarking at Gailes Translink also claimed that the average numbers of passengers using the 505 bus service was according to their figures 2 passengers yet it was proven by more than one independent daily count to be better than 7 passengers per trip average on that service, so much for the credibility of any figures given by Translink.

[somebody]

My understanding is that the counts are a QR responsibility.  FWIW.

[Stillwater]

Dutton Park Station serves people accessing the Princess Alexandra Hospital - Brisbane's second biggest hospital - from all over the city and South-East.  It should stay.

[somebody]

Dutton Park Station serves people accessing the Princess Alexandra Hospital - Brisbane's second biggest hospital - from all over the city and South-East.  It should stay.

This function is provided by the busway to UQ now though.  Perhaps there are some parts of the hospital which Dutton Park is closer to.

Of course, for Beenleigh line users it my be easier to use Dutton Park.

I also think it should stay, just not be served by trains passing stations beyond Coopers Plains.

[Golliwog]

If the bike/pathway that runs along next to the busway at the PA continued and went under the railway and connected to Park Rd then thats only a 600m walk which would be doable, though perhaps not by the elderley/sick.

[somebody]

Sorry to go off topic again, but Bindha and 9 morning peak inbound boardings and 12 morning peak inbound alightings would be another candidate, as would Beerburrum at 12 and 4.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Beerburrum just underwent a massive station upgrade. So it must be closing soon given the history of other stations/lines getting done up and shut down

[O_128]

I would say shut down wynnum station, no one uses it though its just been upgraded.

[somebody]

I would say shut down wynnum station, no one uses it though its just been upgraded.

182 and 26.

Dutton Park is 162 and 230.
Rocklea is 102 and 65.
Holmview is 65 and 12 BTW.

[HappyTrainGuy]

From my observations Dutton Park does tend to get more passengers outside of peak times (Tend to get off at Southbank-City).

[Stillwater]

Re suggestion about shutting down Beerburrum Station, please refer to the Caboolture-Landsborough Upgrade Working Paper supporting the rationale for the Beerburrum Station and its location.

Here's an extract: "Reference to the Draft Caloundra Plan indicates that Caloundra City Council intends to permit urban development to the south of the current Beerburrum town centre, excluding an area of 'constrained land not intended for development'. Future development in this area would increase the potential catchment area for a relocated station site."

http://www.arup.com.au/clrs/report_stage3/Draft%20Stage%203%20Chapter%2015.pdf

RailBOT cannot argue simultaneously that the State Government should provide transport infrastructure ahead of development (ie at Caloundra South and Springfield) and criticise government when it does provide transport infrastructure supporting future development.

[colinw]

Dutton Park Station serves people accessing the Princess Alexandra Hospital - Brisbane's second biggest hospital - from all over the city and South-East.  It should stay.

This function is provided by the busway to UQ now though.  Perhaps there are some parts of the hospital which Dutton Park is closer to.

From my observations while my sister was in the PA, Dutton Park is still considerably busier than the PAH busway station. On the usage levels I observed (admittedly over 6 months ago now), the PAH busway station barely justifies its existence whereas Dutton Park Rail has a fairly steady rate of usage even offpeak.

That's the problem with rationalising stations in Brisbane. It will be very hard to find any station that does not have a moderate level of use. The closure, 30+ years ago, of Gloucester St was a special case - there's no way you would fit a 6 car length station where it was sited. And the main user base was school kids going to St Laurences, so very little electoral impact from its closure as Vulture St is nearly as convenient.

[colinw]

I would say shut down wynnum station, no one uses it though its just been upgraded.

I used to live at Wynnum, and actually used it to commute to work for quite a while. It was moderately busy in peak, never offpeak.

IMHO 3 stations for the suburb is excessive.

[Stillwater]

Wynnum Station should not be closed.  Rather, the possibilities for integrating the station with the surrounding area should be explored; and that's what's proposed.

http://www.wynnummanly.com.au/pdf/OpeningPresentationWendyMorris3.pdf

http://www.propertyoz.com.au/Article/Resource.aspx?media=654

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=41784

[O_128]

Wynnum Station should not be closed.  Rather, the possibilities for integrating the station with the surrounding area should be explored; and that's what's proposed.

http://www.wynnummanly.com.au/pdf/OpeningPresentationWendyMorris3.pdf

http://www.propertyoz.com.au/Article/Resource.aspx?media=654

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=41784

Thats wynum central, wynnum is about 800m away

[somebody]

Re suggestion about shutting down Beerburrum Station, please refer to the Caboolture-Landsborough Upgrade Working Paper supporting the rationale for the Beerburrum Station and its location.

Here's an extract: "Reference to the Draft Caloundra Plan indicates that Caloundra City Council intends to permit urban development to the south of the current Beerburrum town centre, excluding an area of 'constrained land not intended for development'. Future development in this area would increase the potential catchment area for a relocated station site."

http://www.arup.com.au/clrs/report_stage3/Draft%20Stage%203%20Chapter%2015.pdf

RailBOT cannot argue simultaneously that the State Government should provide transport infrastructure ahead of development (ie at Caloundra South and Springfield) and criticise government when it does provide transport infrastructure supporting future development.

Take the point on that one.  If there is substantial development planned there then the station will justifiy its existence.

Dutton Park Station serves people accessing the Princess Alexandra Hospital - Brisbane's second biggest hospital - from all over the city and South-East.  It should stay.

This function is provided by the busway to UQ now though.  Perhaps there are some parts of the hospital which Dutton Park is closer to.

From my observations while my sister was in the PA, Dutton Park is still considerably busier than the PAH busway station. On the usage levels I observed (admittedly over 6 months ago now), the PAH busway station barely justifies its existence whereas Dutton Park Rail has a fairly steady rate of usage even offpeak.

That's the problem with rationalising stations in Brisbane. It will be very hard to find any station that does not have a moderate level of use. The closure, 30+ years ago, of Gloucester St was a special case - there's no way you would fit a 6 car length station where it was sited. And the main user base was school kids going to St Laurences, so very little electoral impact from its closure as Vulture St is nearly as convenient.

I'd estimate two to three boardings or alightings there for the average bus.  But the frequency is comparatively high.

[mufreight]

My understanding is that the counts are a QR responsibility.  FWIW.

I think you will find that the that the figures given in the Translink report are the Translink figures, many of those leaving the train there would be traveling on paper tickets and as such would not be counted by Translink as using Gailes, plus the highly suspect Translink figures make anything eminating from Translink less than credible, particularly statistics.

[somebody]

My understanding is that the counts are a QR responsibility.  FWIW.

I think you will find that the that the figures given in the Translink report are the Translink figures, many of those leaving the train there would be traveling on paper tickets and as such would not be counted by Translink as using Gailes, plus the highly suspect Translink figures make anything eminating from Translink less than credible, particularly statistics.

I was quoting from the 2009 passenger load survey.