Ticket price rises 2012 - 2014

[Arnz]

I disagree.

The product is transport.  Why can't you compare one option for delivering that product against another?

So... maglev bus to Gympie North or Coolangatta Ex Adelaide Street Anyone???

Fixed    I know a few readers on here that's regularly reads the SS forums that would know what I mean

On a slight serious note, there is the "bus" option.  It's called Greyhound and it's slower due to the many stops.

[somebody]

But as rail is ramped up it will probably increase passenger trips to point where it is greater than bus as well.  

I'd be surprised if that happened in Brisbane.  Even in Perth which has directed most of its investment at rail has significantly higher usage of buses.  Melbourne and New York do have higher rail usage than bus though.

I disagree.

The product is transport.  Why can't you compare one option for delivering that product against another?

So... rocket bus to Gympie North or Coolangatta Ex Adelaide Street Anyone???

In 1992 (i.e. before the Gold Coast line was built) the rocket bus to Coolangatta wasn't a dumb suggestion.  And it should have been weighed up whether to do this or build the rail line. Perhaps it was.

[dwb]

Simple. BT has no where near as much rollingstock, infrastructure, staff and assets to look after and maintain. Having a fixed permanent route would be a big issue too. Busses can spread out and cover more areas compared to trains which covers more distance along a fixed path. Comparing busses to trains is like comparing apples to oranges.

I disagree.

The product is transport.  Why can't you compare one option for delivering that product against another?

I agree and I certainly think that TL would not be doing anyone a favour by ignoring the cost differentials and not trying to get better utilisation of infrastructure.

I STRONGLY think RBoT should be arguing for fares to be offsetting a proportion of operating expenses only... not capex/infrastructure maintenance if that is true that the QR subsidy includes all and sundry.... otherwise our fares are going to be astronomical if we have to pay the capex on CRR through fares!

[ozbob]

And it would appear there is a plan to phase out paper tickets from 2012?

--> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/planned-fares - no mention of paper

and this statement:

--> http://www.adrianschrinner.com/Newsroom/LatestNews/tabid/67/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/534/State-fare-hikes-cause-public-transport-slump.aspx

The State has also cancelled the daily travel ticket, with paper tickets to be scrapped next year.

Some further advice received that suggests paper might be still around in 2012 ....

[HappyTrainGuy]

The product is transport.  Why can't you compare one option for delivering that product against another?

Because they are two absolutly different modes of transport. Buses stick to roads which are everywhere and fan out over a short distance while trains stick to a fixed path over a much much greater distance. As much as people want trains going everywhere I think thats just a stupid idea. You can either have a train that snakes through the suburbs with a twisty and slow alignment or have a somewhat straight path for higher speeds for people that live futher out. You can't have both. Does anyone else see BT looking after 1000km of electrified track, station power bills to provide lighting and CCTV for passengers, roaming security, a massive room dedicated to CCTV, having track maintainence vehicles, cars and trucks to look after, massive anti vandalism programs, constant on the road crews to quickly respond to track/signal faults, providing services to Gympie-Gold Coast, controlling every train movement (freight, passenger, long service, interstate - XPT), landscaping crews, machines that can lift a 100t train metres off the ground, 24 hours-7 Days a week maintainence programs and the list goes on an on.

[somebody]

The product is transport.  Why can't you compare one option for delivering that product against another?

Because they are two absolutly different modes of transport. Buses stick to roads which are everywhere and fan out over a short distance while trains stick to a fixed path over a much much greater distance. As much as people want trains going everywhere I think thats just a stupid idea. You can either have a train that snakes through the suburbs with a twisty and slow alignment or have a somewhat straight path for higher speeds for people that live futher out. You can't have both. Does anyone else see BT looking after 1000km of electrified track, station power bills to provide lighting and CCTV for passengers, roaming security, a massive room dedicated to CCTV, having track maintainence vehicles, cars and trucks to look after, massive anti vandalism programs, constant on the road crews to quickly respond to track/signal faults, providing services to Gympie-Gold Coast, controlling every train movement (freight, passenger, long service, interstate - XPT), landscaping crews, machines that can lift a 100t train metres off the ground, 24 hours-7 Days a week maintainence programs and the list goes on an on.

In addtion to my previous post, it would be completely possible to have buses replacing the entire QR rail system.  Might be unattractive, might require more infrastructure, but on the other hand you might get an operator that knows how to increase frequency above half hourly.  Ipswich Motorway is also faster than the train off peak.

You see places like Bogota and Curitiba doing such things.  Personally, I think that policy has gone in the wrong direction, but that doesn't mean you can't compare one policy with another.

Singly unconvinced.

[Arnz]

In addtion to my previous post, it would be completely possible to have buses replacing the entire QR rail system.  Might be unattractive, might require more infrastructure, but on the other hand you might get an operator that knows how to increase frequency above half hourly.  Ipswich Motorway is also faster than the train off peak.

So what's going to happen to the freight in that scenario?  Have trucks carrying freight and spitting out diesel fuel operate inbetween the buses?

[somebody]

In addtion to my previous post, it would be completely possible to have buses replacing the entire QR rail system.  Might be unattractive, might require more infrastructure, but on the other hand you might get an operator that knows how to increase frequency above half hourly.  Ipswich Motorway is also faster than the train off peak.

So what's going to happen to the freight in that scenario?  Have trucks carrying freight and spitting out diesel fuel operate inbetween the buses?

Yes.

Unless there is a freight only railway.

I did say that I think the policies on Bogota and Curitiba are going in the wrong direction.

[Arnz]

Which speaking of that out of left field fantasy idea of trucks and buses replacing rail, your suggestion should apply to the whole Australian rail network, rather than just Qld

[HappyTrainGuy]

Have you been travelling on the late night Ferny Grove train haha. How would you compare long distance Maglev trains to long distance steam trains? How about flying to Melbourne compared to driving. Might aswell buy a couple massive cargo jumbos instead of a few truks on our highways. Does the 130/140 deserve its own busway along Mains road?

[somebody]

Which speaking of that out of left field fantasy idea of trucks and buses replacing rail, your suggestion should apply to the whole Australian rail network, rather than just Qld

It wasn't a serious suggestion, but a hypothetical for the sake of the argument, to try and prove the point that I was originally making that, in fact, you can compare bus transit to rail transit.

[#Metro]

In addtion to my previous post, it would be completely possible to have buses replacing the entire QR rail system. Might be unattractive, might require more infrastructure, but on the other hand you might get an operator that knows how to increase frequency above half hourly.  Ipswich Motorway is also faster than the train off peak.

You see places like Bogota and Curitiba doing such things.  Personally, I think that policy has gone in the wrong direction, but that doesn't mean you can't compare one policy with another.

Singly unconvinced.

What the?

Why are we comparing this?

[ozbob]

Have a look at the business case for MBRL.  Rail was the choice because it was the cost effective solution (here the infrastructure costs were properly costed).  Buses are buses, trains are trains.  The problem with Brisbane is that buses are trying to be made train like with the resultant mediocrity, not only for the bus network but for the train network.

It is always about mode fit for purpose, slowly that revelation may be dawning in the right places.

[somebody]

Have a look at the business case for MBRL.  Rail was the choice because it was the cost effective solution (here the infrastructure costs were properly costed).  Buses are buses, trains are trains.  The problem with Brisbane is that buses are trying to be made train like with the resultant mediocrity, not only for the bus network but for the train network.

It is always about mode fit for purpose, slowly that revelation may be dawning in the right places.

Which is further debunking of the comment that you cannot compare bus v train.

MBRL as heavy rail certainly makes sense to me.  Mostly because otherwise you have to have feeder services which aren't well liked by pax.  The limitation to that argument is that you may well still need feeders to the train stations on the MBRL.  Just shorter distance ones, and you are still increasing the rail walk up patronage.

[#Metro]

The busways will never replace the train system; its a zero utility hypothetical to go down that path that will never happen in the real world.
So why bother even discussing it?

[dwb]

To get back on topic...

and this statement:

--> http://www.adrianschrinner.com/Newsroom/LatestNews/tabid/67/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/534/State-fare-hikes-cause-public-transport-slump.aspx

Gee that is some good spin doctoring.

"Public transport should be treated as a public service and using it as a way to raise money to pay down general debt will only force more people back into their cars."

Paying down general debt... bare faced lie! Oh and who's paying for all those buses you're delivering BCC??

And I do think it is highly likely the flood impacted on patronage for much of the year - how many businesses were affected? went out of business? how much money got redirected and/or cut from budgets? Everyone says Brisbane is dead quiet, and when it is quiet people travel less.

Besides, imagine that if half of Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast passengers used to buy monthly, 3/6/12month tickets - and they were put in the system as 11 or more trips to calculate the number of overall trips, and yet only 8 or 9 per week were actually happening... doesn't mean the drop in growth is as big as the opposition is making out, and to solely blame fares as the result in people taking less trips while the heat has most definitely come out of the economy is ludicrous.

[colinw]

And I do think it is highly likely the flood impacted on patronage for much of the year - how many businesses were affected? went out of business? how much money got redirected and/or cut from budgets? Everyone says Brisbane is dead quiet, and when it is quiet people travel less.

I don't know if it is flood related, but subjectively the Beenleigh line trains seem to me to be much quieter than they were a year ago.

It used to be quite common to encounter crowding on weekend services from about Yeronga inwards. Haven't seen that at all this year.

As to the cause: I'd say that the fare rises haven't helped but I think the general downturn of the economy and some local effects from flooding have to be taken into consideration.

On the other hand, my local bus route has been getting much busier this year, but I put that down to ramp-up of a relatively new service.

I also don't think it is particularly helpful to try and compare pre- Go Card stats with current stats. Simply no way to be sure if trips were being counted on the same basis (and number of trips on dailies & periodicals would have to be an estimate).

[somebody]

The busways will never replace the train system; its a zero utility hypothetical to go down that path that will never happen in the real world.
So why bother even discussing it?

Because of the absurd (IMO) comment that you cannot compare bus v train services.

[dwb]

I also don't think it is particularly helpful to try and compare pre- Go Card stats with current stats. Simply no way to be sure if trips were being counted on the same basis (and number of trips on dailies & periodicals would have to be an estimate).

Agree ColinW. Another factor to think about is all those duplicate button presses that BT drivers never should have done but used to do for Go card customers.

[somebody]

I also don't think it is particularly helpful to try and compare pre- Go Card stats with current stats. Simply no way to be sure if trips were being counted on the same basis (and number of trips on dailies & periodicals would have to be an estimate).

It would be OK to compare the QR passenger surveys though as they don't depend on ticketing data.

[colinw]

I also don't think it is particularly helpful to try and compare pre- Go Card stats with current stats. Simply no way to be sure if trips were being counted on the same basis (and number of trips on dailies & periodicals would have to be an estimate).

Agree ColinW. Another factor to think about is all those duplicate button presses that BT drivers never should have done but used to do for Go card customers.

I sometimes see that on Logan City buses - driver pressing a "count" button for every Go Card tag on.  Some sort of load survey?

[dwb]

I sometimes see that on Logan City buses - driver pressing a "count" button for every Go Card tag on.  Some sort of load survey?

Otto might be able to help but AFAIK this is an error. Go card is to work that out itself. The only time the button should be pressed is a paper ticket holder boarding the bus.

[Golliwog]

My understanding is the count button is only meant to be used to add on the paper ticket holders to the passenger count on the bus. And that yes this is meant to be a form of load survey. Not very accurate though when you have drivers speed pressing the count button for everyone at some stops (as I have witnessed on BT buses through Boggo Rd).

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter has been told by a driver that there is a full bus button (and not the one that changes the destination).

[dwb]

BrizCommuter has been told by a driver that there is a full bus button (and not the one that changes the destination).

]

Dwb finds it odd how BrizCommuter refers to himself in third person.

Further, why would a driver need to press a "full bus button" more than once?? AFAIK the bus full numbers (at least by BT) are calculated by when drivers use the radio to communicate with the depot that they are full and how many passengers are waiting at the stop.

[SurfRail]

BrizCommuter has been told by a driver that there is a full bus button (and not the one that changes the destination).

]

Dwb finds it odd how BrizCommuter refers to himself in third person.

Further, why would a driver need to press a "full bus button" more than once?? AFAIK the bus full numbers (at least by BT) are calculated by when drivers use the radio to communicate with the depot that they are full and how many passengers are waiting at the stop.

BT has a Motorola digital radio system, so I expect it does have that functionality.

[STB]

I sometimes see that on Logan City buses - driver pressing a "count" button for every Go Card tag on.  Some sort of load survey?

Otto might be able to help but AFAIK this is an error. Go card is to work that out itself. The only time the button should be pressed is a paper ticket holder boarding the bus.

This is definately an error on the driver's part and can give false ticketing figures as you are effectively doubling up on the pax count for the trip.  Innocent error due to driver training or is there something more sinister perhaps with LCBS attempting to pull more route KMs by saying to TL that they have an overload problem?

[somebody]

I sometimes see that on Logan City buses - driver pressing a "count" button for every Go Card tag on.  Some sort of load survey?

Otto might be able to help but AFAIK this is an error. Go card is to work that out itself. The only time the button should be pressed is a paper ticket holder boarding the bus.

This is definately an error on the driver's part and can give false ticketing figures as you are effectively doubling up on the pax count for the trip.  Innocent error due to driver training or is there something more sinister perhaps with LCBS attempting to pull more route KMs by saying to TL that they have an overload problem?

Let's assume innocent error given there is no evidence of anything else.

[Golliwog]

Well I just went through my inbox and found where I sent off a feedback form to TL about the one I noticed back in March. I gave them the route number, where it was and also the bus number. When they replied they informed me they would be passing the information onto BT for their attention, and that if it was found the driver was doing it incorrectly, they would recieve additional training. All we as a passenger can do really, and that was really all I was hoping for.

I think Translink might also have some physical data to compare it with now as well. The 3rd year Civil students at UQ have twice this semester done their own passenger counts on the 109 and 412, and recieved free use of those buses from Translnk to do so, so I assume Translink would get a copy of the data. Accuracy of the physical count may be an issue, but they did have an assignment to do on it so they shouldn't have fudged it.

[ozbob]

And it would appear there is a plan to phase out paper tickets from 2012?

--> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/planned-fares - no mention of paper

and this statement:

--> http://www.adrianschrinner.com/Newsroom/LatestNews/tabid/67/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/534/State-fare-hikes-cause-public-transport-slump.aspx

The State has also cancelled the daily travel ticket, with paper tickets to be scrapped next year.

Some further advice received that suggests paper might be still around in 2012 ....

From the Couriermail click here!

Omission of cost of paper tickets from Translink's website sparks concerns with consumer groups that go card will be only option

Omission of cost of paper tickets from Translink's website sparks concerns with consumer groups that go card will be only option

   by: Robyn Ironside, Transport Reporter
   From: The Courier-Mail
   October 05, 2011 2:00AM

THE omission of the cost of paper tickets from Translink's website has sparked concerns they are about to be scrapped.

Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said he was of the understanding that paper tickets - which cost 30 per cent more than go card fares - would not be around next year, forcing passengers to use go cards.

A table of scheduled fare increases on the Translink website for 2012-14 includes only go card prices, and makes no mention of paper tickets.

Translink also recently announced the roll-out of pre-paid go cards on ferries and CityCats.

A Translink spokesman said paper tickets were reviewed at the end of last year and a decision was made to retain them, but since then, the go card take-up rate had increased from 44 per cent to over 80 per cent.

Cr Quirk said he understood Translink had made the decision to get rid of paper tickets at the start of next year.

"There are obviously operational advantages to having a paperless ticket system in relation to the speed of bus movements at stops, but the reality is I don't believe the go card system is one that's absolutely consumer friendly," he said.

"It would be ludicrous to do without paper-based tickets until there's an ease of which people can get a go card."

Commuter advocate Robert Dow from Back on Track said he would want to see a lot of improvements in the current system before paper tickets were abolished.

"We think the price of go cards should be reduced to reflect the real cost, which is about $1, and the refund process should be expedited," Mr Dow said.

The Translink spokesman said single-trip paper tickets would continue to be available, although the "go card was the best ticketing option".

"We continue to look at ways to encourage go card uptake, such as additional places to purchase go cards," he said.

"Current go card take up is at more than 80 per cent of weekday trips, more than any other public transport network in Australia."

He said the omission of paper ticket prices from the Translink's scheduled fare increases was simply an oversight.

"It is important that customers always have access to an alternative ticketing product, which will continue to be single-trip paper tickets," he said.

Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said he was of the understanding that paper tickets - which cost 30 per cent more than go card fares - would not be around next year, forcing passengers to use go cards ...

Vs.

... He said the omission of paper ticket prices from the Translink's scheduled fare increases was simply an oversight ...

  huh??

[ozbob]

An oversight?  Gee, now that is starting to strain it a bit I think .. lol

Look forward to seeing the paper prices, another good look heading into an election ...   :conf

[SurfRail]

Just smacks of incompetence, like almost every offering from them recently.

About to experience Sydney again for a few days.  I can't believe I used to laugh at how dysfunctional their transport system was/is - at least the trains and buses are actually there.

[somebody]

I for one had little doubt it would happen this way.  It's a continuation of the reactive policy making, which seems to be the way it is done here.  Can anyone tell me it wasn't always this way?

Just smacks of incompetence, like almost every offering from them recently.

About to experience Sydney again for a few days.  I can't believe I used to laugh at how dysfunctional their transport system was/is - at least the trains and buses are actually there.

What annoys you most about Sydney's system?

[SurfRail]

What annoys you most about Sydney's system?[/quote]

- 131500 is not as good as 131230 or our website, at least when I last used it
- Ticketing system is still fubar, although Myzone and the recent inclusion of trams have effectively solved that for my visiting purposes.
- Trains are filthy, although not as bad as Melbourne.
- Buses are a lot more ancient than up here (which is objectively a bad thing, but I quite enjoy riding on 25+ year old O305s, the sound of them is something I just associate with Sydney)
- Realtime systems on the bus network non-existent, very limited or ancient/non-functional.

Plenty of things they do better, like network maps, bus destination boards, interior bus configuration, CBD stop locations, building interchanges properly (eg Chatswood, Parramatta), use of bus lanes in the CBD, buses feed rail more, rail infrastructure upgrades actually put to use (eg Cronulla duplication), cheaper short-distance trips, better late night services generally etc.

[somebody]

Disagree with points 1 and 4.

Re: point 5.  Realtime bus systems here are a joke here anyway, so I don't see how that's a point of difference.

Fully agree with point 2.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter has been told by a driver that there is a full bus button (and not the one that changes the destination).

]

Dwb finds it odd how BrizCommuter refers to himself in third person.

Further, why would a driver need to press a "full bus button" more than once?? AFAIK the bus full numbers (at least by BT) are calculated by when drivers use the radio to communicate with the depot that they are full and how many passengers are waiting at the stop.

Point 1 - Because BrizCommuter can.
Pount 2 - Destination displays and fare console thingy are two separate systems, thus different buttons are required. ?? the button on the fare console thingy replaced having to call the depot or control. Can Otto confirm?

[Gazza]

BT buses have 3 'devices'.

-The silver one for tickets.
-The black one which is has a keypad, for radio calls, and for dialing in codes for things such as overfull buses etc
-The overhead one, which controls the desto.

Fixed  Bus Propeller head  I know a few readers on here that's regularly reads the SS forums that would know what I mean Wink

8 min maglev bus WPH-Wynyard.

[Mr X]

Isn't it 21 min  :conf

[AnonymouslyBad]

So... rocket bus to Gympie North or Coolangatta Ex Adelaide Street Anyone???

Would probably be quicker than the train...

[colinw]

But would it be as comfortable?  Last week I had occasion to use the train between Sydney & Wollongong. One way was a bus substitution, the other way was by train. Even 'though the bus was slightly faster, I preferred the train because it was much more comfortable.