The Sunshine Coast Case : Rail duplication Beerburrum to Nambour

[timh]

Is there a known target in terms of passenger / freight capacity they want to achieve?

At the moment, the design of the infrastructure obviously does heavily limit capacity, the passing loops are too short and the awful arrangement at the intermediate stations mean all passenger services must use the up track, which means a shunt movement if trains are arriving at the station at the same time.

But if the loops are longer, and all stations have two platforms, that means more freight, and means the dance of the trains is eliminated then what's the problem?
What tph will that provide versus what is needed?

I think curvature is still an issue. While I don't think Nambour-Bris is worthy of "fast rail" speeds, it needs to be better than it is currently. While the ridiculous shunt moves and long stop times at stations to let trains pass doesn't help, the incredibly slow running speeds north of Landsborough don't help. I'd want 15-30 mins shaved off the current travel time to make it worth using. While huge growth isn't expected in those corridors I think reducing the travel time from over 90 mins to just over an hour is reasonable, and makes it far more competitive to car travel, encouraging patronage.

And so if you were going to realign the track to remove curves, may as well duplicate it while you're at it?  :conf

EDIT: I'll add that I still think rail to Maroochydore is a much higher priority than fast rail to Nambour.

[kram0]

If they even consider making the CAMCOS line to Caloundra/Maroochydore single track, Bailey should be sacked on the spot.

Didn't they think about this same idiotic/dumb arse idea on the Springfield line until such time as they plugged their brain in?

F%^k me I hate politicians and all the BS that comes out of there mouth 

[verbatim9]

Two tracks for sure otherwise the issues and problems that would arise would be tremendous.

[timh]

If they even consider making the CAMCOS line to Caloundra/Maroochydore single track, Bailey should be sacked on the spot.

Yeah that would an absolutely sh%t outcome. I was very shocked when I read that. Bob do you know where that info came from?

No modern day passenger railway line should be built as single track, unless it was servicing some tiny town or something (which Caloundra/Maroochydore definitely are NOT).

[ozbob]

I am not able to disclose the source at this time Tim.

But trust me ...  I am a Captain (Ret'd) 

[ozbob]

^^^

Yo kram0  it was a big battle to get Springfield done as a double track.

It was going to single from Richlands to Springfield Central and the station at Springfield Lakes (now Springfield) was not going to be built either.  We managed to get both in the end but missed out on Ellen Grove station.  2/3 is better than 0/3.

Rail planning in SEQ is a disaster ...

[Gazza]

but missed out on Ellen Grove station.  2/3 is better than 0/3.

Rail planning in SEQ is a disaster ...

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Perth approach of reserving station sites and building infill stations like Aubin Grove when the area gets built out.

As of 2020, Ellen Grove is still largely undeveloped.

[kram0]

^^^

Yo kram0  it was a big battle to get Springfield done as a double track.

It was going to single from Richlands to Springfield Central and the station at Springfield Lakes (now Springfield) was not going to be built either.  We managed to get both in the end but missed out on Ellen Grove station.  2/3 is better than 0/3.

Rail planning in SEQ is a disaster ...

Well keep fighting the fight with the d%^k heads in George Street Bob, we appreciate the efforts.

While we don't know when CAMCOS will be built, (construction should start within 5 years), whenever it is built, they should be reminded of Springfield and it should definitely be 2 tracks.

[Arnz]

An interesting state election result, with Labor making inroads into the traditional LNP heartland of the Sunshine Coast. The ALP appears to have won Pumicestone (Bribie Island and surrounds) and Caloundra, where the influx of young families to the City of Aura may have had a bearing on the outcome. Aura/Caloundra is on the route of the proposed CAMCOS rail corridor. Further north, Nicklin MP Marty Hunt is in strife and may have his seat snatched by the ALP's Rob Skelton. Noosa was won very comfortably by the popular Independent Sandy Bolton (who catches the train from Cooroy when Parliament is sitting).

Nicklin is based on Nambour and the hinterland. So, will we see a scramble from within Labor circles to end the delays and sniping regarding the SCL duplication to Nambour and an acceleration of that project AND maybe even a commitment to Beerwah, Caloundra South and Caloundra (maybe even to Kawana - SCU hospital) links.

There is no doubt that the ALP will work hard to consolidate its inroads into the Sunshine Coast. Voters there will be looking to see some concrete results flowing from their show of faith in Palasczcuk and Co.

Caloundra has been formally declared to the ALP, whereas the recount in Nicklin has officially began due to the close margin.

Despite the start of the recount in Nicklin, it seems however that the ALP has declared victory in Nicklin, confident they have got the seat of Nicklin, despite the close margin

[Gazza]

So why Inland Rail is fine as single track with passing loops, but Beerwah to Nambour must be dual the whole way?

[Fares_Fair]

Comparing a freight only inland (away from population centres) railway track TO a single track shared by freight, long-distance trains and passenger services to Nambour.

I don't really care about Fast Rail to Nambour. There's no money for any of it, anyway.
I do care about getting them a simple, decent, duplicated rail line to improve freight to Cairns and provide collateral advantage to passenger services.

It would be far, far cheaper to just run connecting buses from the populated coastal regions across to the North Coast Line railway.
It would save billions compared to a (replicated) CAMCOS corridor.

[Edit: revised to be courteous]

[ozbob]

The lack of train paths between Nambour and Beerburrum is why the Citytrain passenger frequency is so poor particularly out of peak ( during peak there is a freight curfew of sorts ).  Increasing demands for freight, long distance rail and a better Citytrain service for Nambour is not going to be met by some half baked effort.  For a start it is essential that stage one extend to Landsborough.  I am not talking fast rail just a reasonable service to and from Nambour.  CAMCOS fast rail is going to work how?  Fast trains will not be successful on a corridor - south of Beerwah - that is shared with freight, long distance passenger and Citytrain.   They are in fantasy land.

[ozbob]

Comparing a freight only inland (away from population centres) railway track TO a single track shared by freight, long-distance trains and passenger services to Nambour.

I don't really care about Fast Rail to Nambour. There's no money for any of it, anyway.
I do care about getting them a simple, decent, duplicated rail line to improve freight to Cairns and provide collateral advantage to passenger services.

It would be far, far cheaper to just run connecting buses from the populated coastal regions across to the North Coast Line railway.
It would save billions compared to a (replicated) CAMCOS corridor.

[Edit: revised to be courteous]

"trackless trams"  could be the go for CAMCOS! 

[Arnz]

As said previously, the CAMCOS is still away from the main population centre with the exception of the developing Aura/Caloundra South district, SCUH & Surrounds (Birtinya) and Sunshine Plaza itself.

The CoastConnect Busway using most of the existing 600 corridor (where most of the population is) with bus priority lanes for the SCUH district, perhaps with the busway extended into Caloundra South/Aura and into Beerwah may arguably be cheaper.

[Gazza]

Comparing a freight only inland (away from population centres) railway track TO a single track shared by freight, long-distance trains and passenger services to Nambour.

I don't really care about Fast Rail to Nambour. There's no money for any of it, anyway.
I do care about getting them a simple, decent, duplicated rail line to improve freight to Cairns and provide collateral advantage to passenger services.

It would be far, far cheaper to just run connecting buses from the populated coastal regions across to the North Coast Line railway.
It would save billions compared to a (replicated) CAMCOS corridor.

[Edit: revised to be courteous]

Running buses from the coast to Nambour is not an effective solution (noe that's what you call a half baked)

as we've established the majority of people on the Sunshine Coast live near the ocean.

Only way for those people to get to Brisbane is to muck around for half an hour on a feeder bus.

So absolutely zero prospect of the journey being competitive with a car, because who the hell wants to spend that long getting to Brisbane via PT

Would you accept the reverse situation? Catching a bus to Maroochydore to get on a train?

The way I see it, Nambour and Landsborough only get their current patronage levels under duress.....if you want to catch a train to the Sunshine Coast proper you are forced to get off at those stations and Interchange because there's no alternative.

If there were train stations at Caloundra, Kawana and Maroochydore, then you slash journey times and put the Transport close to your customers.
There is also less pressure on Nambour and Landsborough stations because now there is no need for anyone to make a long feeder journey except Coolum and Noosa, and nobody from the coastal suburbs are driving to those car parks.

So if Landsborough, Nambour have less pressure on them , then there is less need to add capacity.

Thus There is no reason you couldn't provide a 30 min frequency shuttle from Beerwah to Nambour on a track with better passing loops plus improved freight.

V line does it.

It is undeniable that my approach would result in a greater increase in public transport usage on the Sunshine Coast, would still allow for a 50% in freight, and would likely cost Less because Greenfield construction on a reserved corridor is cheaper than possessions in an existing one.

[Gazza]

The lack of train paths between Nambour and Beerburrum is why the Citytrain passenger frequency is so poor particularly out of peak ( during peak there is a freight curfew of sorts ).  Increasing demands for freight, long distance rail and a better Citytrain service for Nambour is not going to be met by some half baked effort.  For a start it is essential that stage one extend to Landsborough.  I am not talking fast rail just a reasonable service to and from Nambour.  CAMCOS fast rail is going to work how?  Fast trains will not be successful on a corridor - south of Beerwah - that is shared with freight, long distance passenger and Citytrain.   They are in fantasy land.

Bob
I dont think South of Beerwah would be "fast rail" but once the duplication and CRR open the journey time to the city will be only be about an hour, which is still a worthwhile basis for hooking on camcos.....The Journey to Maroochydore will only be 90 minutes total, compared to over 2h now..... A respectable proposition.

(I am assuming the 40km of line from Beerwah to Maroochydore could be done in 30 mins given it will be modern)

the reality is once the duplication reaches Beerwah The single track gauntlet now becomes only six stations long.

These stations currently only receive 90 minute frequency,

so even a shuttle running clockface hourly  is a worthwhile service for villages of this size, and again, no difference of what you get on VLine or the Blue Mountains line off peak.

It is an interesting thought process that a Greenfield line on a reserved corridor is considered foam, when the government has opened two such lines in the past decade.

But a complex realignment of an existing line through a national park potentially costing $3b is something the government will jump at

Why is there so much emphasis on providing service improvements to Nambour instead of Maroochydore?

[Fares_Fair]

Because Freight is shared with passengers.

The gauntlet extends to Gympie North, some 14 stations.

How much do you reckon the 40km of rail from Beerwah to Maroochydore should cost?
The 12.6km MBRL cost $1 billion (including 6 new stations). Opened in 2016.

[Gazza]

Because Freight is shared with passengers.

The gauntlet extends to Gympie North, some 14 stations.

How much do you reckon the 40km of rail from Beerwah to Maroochydore should cost?

Actually, the single track goes all the way to Cairns, not Gympie North.

But most trains terminate at Nambour, so managing freight and passenger north of there is less of a problem.

What level of service are we anticipating north of Beerwah?
Freight and passengers can share single track....The current platform and passing loop set up is crap at the moment, but that doesn't mean an improved configuration wouldn't work.

In terms of the costs.
The Yanchep Rail extension in Perth is under construction right now, $530m for 14.5km.

So i would estimate 40km of camcos could be done for under $2b.
But even a first stage to Caloundra would have immense benefits in terms of bringing rail to the people and that would be under $1b.

[ozbob]

The priority for me is to get the double track through to Landsborough as has always been the plan for stage one until recently. This would allow much better frequency to Landsborough with a better options for Nambour.
I am not confident that CAMCOS will happen anytime soon if at all. The costs are significant. The cost of doing the double to Landsborough is very small in relative terms.

[Gazza]

But heavily increasing service levels to Landsborough might be a stranded investment in the context of a new network.

If camcos exists, then Beerwah becomes Darra, and Landsborough becomes Wacol if you catch my drift.

people will abandon Landsborough because they will drive to Beerwah to take advantage of the double frequency, or they will use one of the brand new camcos stations.

Of course Landsborough would still see some increase service, but it would be hourly, which is pretty good for a low density country town, and much better than the current timetable

[ozbob]

A double to Landsborough is never going to be a stranded investment it will be a great help in reducing congestion on the line.

When do you think CAMCOS will be operational?

There are a lot of competing projects.

[Gazza]

No doubt there are competing projects.
And yes I know we wish the government built more, but in the time I've lived in Qld I've witnessed the following:

-Springfield Line
-Redcliffe Line
-3 Stages of G link
-CRR
-Various odd and sods in terms of duplications.

Which isn't dire and does demonstrate the government is progressively expanding the reach of the network.

I think we could see a first stage of CAMCOS by 2027.
Some clues:
-Earlier train service plans for CRR (The one that used yellow graphics if someone wants to dig it up) referenced Caloundra:



-Duplicating to Beerwah suggests they want to do enough to act as enabling project and spend no more, so clearly they are fiddling with budgets to free up funds.
-Changing pollyticks on the Sunshine Coast, particularly since the electorates Labor have won are in the catchment of the line?




In a future rail system, there is always going to be a drop in frequency north of Beerwah due to the branching effect.

The double track south of Beerwah will do more heavy lifting than the track north. That's a fact of life.

Perhaps stranded investment is the wrong term, and it would help a bit, but it won't be a game changer....Duplicating to Beerwah will allow a whole new line to be built, potentially being used at 4TPH. But the segment to Landsborough will basically just introduce a bit of extra flexibility, but wont be a full step increase in capacity because its still only going to be used say 2tph at most for pax, freight, and some peak hour specials.

[Arnz]

One competing project is the SCRC's mass transit project, where the alignment largely follows along the coast line and most of the existing Route 600 bus route.  There were two options identified, either as light rail or busway (similar to a former state government's CoastConnect busway.

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/Planning-and-Projects/Major-Regional-Projects/Sunshine-Coast-Mass-Transit-Project

Keep in mind, CAMCOS is argely seen as a intercity line that's still largely away from the coastal population with the exception of Aura, Birtinya (SCUH medical and employment district) and Sunshine Plaza/the 'new" Maroochydore CBD district.  Local PT travel along the CAMCOS corridor will not be as big as the PT trips along the coastline.

[Gazza]

Yes definitely, its like trying to compare Gold Coast heavy Rail and light rail, they both perform different roles.

Aura alone will be triple the size of Nambour. It needs rail.

[Gazza]

It would be far, far cheaper to just run connecting buses from the populated coastal regions across to the North Coast Line railway.
It would save billions compared to a (replicated) CAMCOS corridor.

Oh man, I cant believe the doublethink here.

We all agree the Sunshine Coast line is crap because you often have to catch a railbus instead of a train.

So then why turn around and say buses are fine for the majority because they are cheap.

Literally nobody wants to jump on a bus for 20km having already spent over an hour on the train!

Imagine if someone said this:

It would be far, far cheaper to just make the north coast railway freight only and run passenger buses parallel to the the North Coast Line railway.
It would save billions compared to a duplicated line from Landsborough to Nambour.

Seems like the only sunshine coast residents who deserve proximity to rail are the ones who live in the hills 

[Arnz]

CAMCOS to Caloundra/Aura only would likely depend on how the developers are willing to contribute, on top of the new Labor member for Caloundra and his government are willing to work at least 2 levels of government (Im sure the state would prefer funding from all 3 government levels).

HR to Aura/Caloundra has at least a slim chance in the medium term.  Beyond Caloundra, very little to almost no chance as strongly hinted by the P&R upgrade at Landsborough.  Better chance of the "Route 69 Maglev Bus to Caboolture" occurring before any Heavy Rail beyond Caloundra/Aura is considered.

[ozbob]

^

Yo Arnz,  slim chance indeed.  Stage one is going ahead, it would be very stupid to not go back to the original intention and do the double all the way to Landsborough.  That at least gives a fighting chance to the Sunny Coast line, rather than just suffer mediocrity to 2037 and beyond.
This stuff was started in 2009 and then stopped because of political petulance.

Figure 6.12 from the CRR Business Case is good in that it highlights the fantasy that document must have been.  We have never seen the full business case, it is withheld, but I can guess it must have been very poor for IA to reject it.

[timh]

CAMCOS to Caloundra/Aura only would likely depend on how the developers are willing to contribute

Allowance for the CAMCOS rail line is at the very least included in the Aura masterplan. How much developers are willing to contribute is still a question to be considered but at least the development allows for it to go ahead.
See: https://www.stockland.com.au/~/media/residential/qld/aura/masterplan/39457_aura_masterplan_r03_july2020.ashx

Beyond Caloundra, very little to almost no chance as strongly hinted by the P&R upgrade at Landsborough. 

There is still a very clear reserved land corridor, and the rail line and station in Maroochydore CBD is included in its masterplan, and was the subject of a TMR report in 2009. I know obviously this doesn't guarantee its construction, but having a very expensive reserved land corridor at least means you'd think they're holding onto it for something.
See: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiOtMqRnf7sAhWuzzgGHYD9BdoQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmr.qld.gov.au%2F~%2Fmedia%2FProjects%2FM%2FMaroochydore%2520Station%2520Corridor%2520Study%2Freport%2FPdf_maroochy_station_find_rec_report_complete.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1WGnAXYAqG6rK3y_BuJmuu

One competing project is the SCRC's mass transit project, where the alignment largely follows along the coast line and most of the existing Route 600 bus route.  There were two options identified, either as light rail or busway (similar to a former state government's CoastConnect busway.
https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/Planning-and-Projects/Major-Regional-Projects/Sunshine-Coast-Mass-Transit-Project

Yes definitely, its like trying to compare Gold Coast heavy Rail and light rail, they both perform different roles.

Yeah the Sunshine Coast light rail definitely has a completely different purpose, much as Gazza said. I don't consider them to be "competing" in any sense except funding. They both should be built, and the construction of one does not fulfill the purpose of the other. They also both have very distinctly separate alignments

In terms of the costs.
The Yanchep Rail extension in Perth is under construction right now, $530m for 14.5km.

So i would estimate 40km of camcos could be done for under $2b.
But even a first stage to Caloundra would have immense benefits in terms of bringing rail to the people and that would be under $1b.

I agree the section to Caloundra might be able to done for close to $1b, but the section beyond that I very much doubt would be $2b, and I don't consider the Yanchep extension to be a fair comparison. The land between Butler and Yanchep is mostly verrrrry flat, on easy terrain, and can probably be run at-grade on the surface for the bulk of the alignment with very few viaducts (except for the few sections at Yanchep and Eglington where the alignment crosses roads).
The CAMCOS alignment between Caloundra and Maroochydore however has much more hilly terrain, with at least 2 river crossings and far more rail-over-road sections (especially tricky where the alignment mirrors the Sunshine Motorway and needs to go over all the highway on/off ramps) The amount of viaducts/bridges in that alone would drastically increase the cost compared to the Yanchep extension.

All that being said though, despite the cost, my position is still that rail to Caloundra should be priority 1, followed by duplication to Landsborough (i'm with you on that Bob), followed by staged duplication and realignment to Nambour (not fast rail tho) concurrent with staged extensions to CAMCOS (likely staged to Warana (1), Maroochydore CBD (2), MCY airport (3))

[Gazza]

The bit of Camcos around Maroochydore in fact already has slots built into the off ramps to permit rail:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-26.6678915,153.0837412,3a,29y,77.86h,93.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smFVEkN7lK70tFCGxWPdYrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Agree its north of Kawana that would cost a bit more due to the River Crossing, but i think there's a bit of swings and roundabouts.
In short, Yanchep is $36m per km,
Maroochy at 2b would be $57m per km so i was already thinking it would cost a little more anyway.

Springfield has a fair bit of rail over road and that was a pretty good value project too.

Even a mixed solution, eg HR to Kawana and LR Kawana to Maroochy could be a good solution.

There needs to be a better acknowledgement by RBoT of the realities of the Sunshine Coast.
Once upon a time having only rail to Nambour would have been adequate, that really was the centre.
But in the past 20 years, the population of the coastal suburbs exploded in an entirely car dependent manner.
Have a look at the weekend traffic jams on the Bruce.
It's safe to say all those people are not headed to Landsborough! So why pretend that better rail to Landsborough only will solve these regional problems?

We do not yet have the infrastructure in the right place.

[Arnz]

The bit of Camcos around Maroochydore in fact already has slots built into the off ramps to permit rail:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-26.6678915,153.0837412,3a,29y,77.86h,93.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smFVEkN7lK70tFCGxWPdYrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That could easily be used as a busway as an alternate as well.  Or both if in the very longer term if HR ends up at Maroochydore only.

Despite Caloundra being picked up by Labor and Nicklin possibly going back to "left wing" through the Labor party.  It's a high chance that CAMCOS beyond Caloundra in the "new Redcliffe", along with jokes on Transport forums as the "Maglev Bus to Caboolture" attached to 'long promised' lines such as this (and the Melbourne Airport line as another example).

Caloundra was really mentioned plenty of times over the years could be argued due to Labor believing that they could eventually pick up the seat.

[ozbob]

The point doing of the duplication to Landsborough is put the Sunshine Coast line in a better position in terms improved frequency.

Landsborough is a key interchange and that fact has been recognised with the planned upgrades to the bus interchange PnR etc. Is that a stranded investment too?  ( https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/mccormack/media-release/have-your-say-sunshine-coast-rail-upgrade )

CAMCOS would obviously benefit by having a dual railway to connect into, but makes no sense to me to only do the double north of Beerwah.  There is an immediate need for the Sunshine Coast line to be improved, and it is a project in hand.  Do it right.

[Gazza]

I think the park and ride expansion is absolutely a stranded investment, the extra spaces would be more future proof if built at Beerwah
The bus interchange depends how gold plated it is.

And again, the only reason it is a major bus hub is because of a lack of camcos.
I
You build camcos, you eliminate demand for EW bus routes, you then eliminate the need for as much bus layover capacity.

Its really no different to what happened to Nerang.
It used to be the main way youd connect with 740 HF buses to Surfers. Has a huge bus interchange.

As soon as stage 2 light rail opened, 740 patronage nosedived, and patronage at Helensvale exploded because people preferred the light rail connection more than the bus.
It was a successful transport project because you were actually giving people what they wanted.

Now that huge Nerang interchange is only really fully utilised during Footy matches at Carrara.

If we took this approach on the coast, we'd see the same change in travel behaviour. Who would continue to catch a bus to landsborough when you could catch one to Caloundra rail station instead.

Even with increased services, i think patronage at Landsborough will grow slowly because its fundamentally a poorly located Station for the majority of the population base.

As a final point, if we want to increase frequency in the short term with the first part of the duplication, why not run 2tph to Beerwah, then 1tph continuing onto Nambour?
That's a good improvement.

Im just trying to unpack the TMR thought process but by my reckoning, shortening the duplication to Beerwah north saved about 4km of track ($120m) and deferred one LX removal ($150m)

$270m is not a bad down payment for commencement of camcos, if this is the strategy:

[Arnz]

I think the park and ride expansion is absolutely a stranded investment, the extra spaces would be more future proof if built at Beerwah
The bus interchange depends how gold plated it is.

And again, the only reason it is a major bus hub is because of a lack of camcos.
I
You build camcos, you eliminate demand for EW bus routes, you then eliminate the need for as much bus layover capacity.

The question is will they even build CAMCOS?  History over the past decades suggests that won't be the case.

There may be slim chance with Heavy Rail to Caloundra with the Aura development and the developers chipping in for Transport solutions (such as the Bells Creek Arterial Road), and chances may had slightly increased with the Labor member for Caloundra just sworn in, but beyond Caloundra will still remain in the "foamers"/"Maglev Bus to Caboolture" territory for the foreseeable future considering the counter actions such as the P&R upgrades on the NCL.

Nicklin is a seat out to watch considering the recount had just started.  The Labor candidate there would more lilkely put his case for duplication beyond Landsborough ahead of CAMCOS beyond Caloundra, as that is his seat.

[Gazza]

Why is it a slim chance? The main things that stopped heavy rail expansion in SEQ has been lack of CRR and lack of Duplication.
Both of these things are being resolved.

The Richlands extension happened fairly quickly after the Darra triple.

If camcos is an unlikely proposition, then wouldn't a full Nambour duplication be equally unlikely? What's the difference?

[Arnz]

True for expansion elsewhere, but as stated previously in the past, duplication + CAMCOS to Aura/Caloundra (only) technically could've been possible without CRR. 

It would've been a very simple extension of most Caboolture terminators to Caloundra (the exceptions beings the peak Caboolture short-runners and the late evening services that are required to be stowed in CAB or Elimbah yards) and terminating all Nambour and Gympie services at Beerwah thus to not take up extra slots.  That bit is all moot now.

Saying that, CAMCOS has taken over Redcliffe as the new political football.   The Route 69 Maglev Bus to Caboolture has a better chance than CAMCOS going beyond Caloundra.

Beyond Caloundra is extremely unlikely considering the decades of LNP heartland north of Caloundra, and even in the few years we had a LNP government, they basically did nothing for the coast apart from the short period the 600 had all-day frequencies of every 12 minutes.

[JimmyP]

Even if CAMCOS only went to Caloundra as a stage 1 with a decent transport option to Maroochy and further north for a while, it would still be a hell of a lot closer to the main Sunny Coast population areas than the current NCL. While duplication to Landsborough should definitely be happening, CAMCOS is most certainly better bang for buck in a passenger rail sense.

[Gazza]

True for expansion elsewhere, but as stated previously in the past, duplication + CAMCOS to Aura/Caloundra (only) technically could've been possible without CRR. 

It would've been a very simple extension of most Caboolture terminators to Caloundra (the exceptions beings the peak Caboolture short-runners and the late evening services that are required to be stowed in CAB or Elimbah yards) and terminating all Nambour and Gympie services at Beerwah thus to not take up extra slots.  That bit is all moot now.

Saying that, CAMCOS has taken over Redcliffe as the new political football.   The Route 69 Maglev Bus to Caboolture has a better chance than CAMCOS going beyond Caloundra.

Beyond Caloundra is extremely unlikely considering the decades of LNP heartland north of Caloundra, and even in the few years we had a LNP government, they basically did nothing for the coast apart from the short period the 600 had all-day frequencies of every 12 minutes.

Ok youve made the maglev bus joke enough times now.

Theoretically the Coolangatta extension would have been possible without CRR too but clearly the thought process was getting the CRR hurdle out of the way.

The Gold Coast was solid LNP yet that hasn't prevented the light rail build out. They're even doing it to a seat where the MP is outright hostile to it.

I fully understand that things like Redcliffe were a political football for many years, as was CRR under the LNP, but the fact is redcliffe got built, among other projects finally happening in quicker succession seems to suggest we are out of that rut.

It's really no different to interstate. For example growing up in Victoria it was a major headache to even lobby to get the pissy little South Morang extension built. One term in opposition, and now vic has metro tunnels and mernda extensions and skyrails coming out of their ears.

Why would they even be building CRR if there wasn't an ambition to begin growing the network?

[Arnz]

True for expansion elsewhere, but as stated previously in the past, duplication + CAMCOS to Aura/Caloundra (only) technically could've been possible without CRR. 

It would've been a very simple extension of most Caboolture terminators to Caloundra (the exceptions beings the peak Caboolture short-runners and the late evening services that are required to be stowed in CAB or Elimbah yards) and terminating all Nambour and Gympie services at Beerwah thus to not take up extra slots.  That bit is all moot now.

Saying that, CAMCOS has taken over Redcliffe as the new political football.   The Route 69 Maglev Bus to Caboolture has a better chance than CAMCOS going beyond Caloundra.

Beyond Caloundra is extremely unlikely considering the decades of LNP heartland north of Caloundra, and even in the few years we had a LNP government, they basically did nothing for the coast apart from the short period the 600 had all-day frequencies of every 12 minutes.

Ok youve made the maglev bus joke enough times now.

Theoretically the Coolangatta extension would have been possible without CRR too but clearly the thought process was getting the CRR hurdle out of the way.

The Gold Coast was solid LNP yet that hasn't prevented the light rail build out. They're even doing it to a seat where the MP is outright hostile to it.

I fully understand that things like Redcliffe were a political football for many years, as was CRR under the LNP, but the fact is redcliffe got built, among other projects finally happening in quicker succession seems to suggest we are out of that rut.

It's really no different to interstate. For example growing up in Victoria it was a major headache to even lobby to get the pissy little South Morang extension built. One term in opposition, and now vic has metro tunnels and mernda extensions and skyrails coming out of their ears.

Why would they even be building CRR if there wasn't an ambition to begin growing the network?

Considering most references of CAMCOS + CRR refer only to Caloundra with minimal to no reference to Maroochydore (with the exception of the currrent SEQ High Speed Rail proposal) suggests that the Political Football (in regards to Transport - both Road and Rail) will continue on the Sunshine Coast for the most part (apart from some areas) for the foreseeable future.

The SCRC could be argued to be doing more for internal transport on the SC than the State Government with the ongoing Transit Corridor studies (Light Rail and Busway).  The current state government could really be credited for the Bruce Highway + related road upgrades (e.g Bells Creek Arterial) with virtually minimal to no improvements to active or PT in the region.

For the most part that the GC has the attractions, being the 2nd most populous region in SEQ and lobbyists to help with the infrastructure.

[ozbob]

There is this document " 10 Year SEQ Rail Network Strategy ".

This strategy was done in 2018 by SYSTRA Scott Lister in consultation with TMR, and was concerned with the development of a 10 year demand driven strategy to optimise the benefits of the rail network in SEQ ( https://www.systra.com.au/en-projet/10-year-seq-rail-network-strategy ).

I tried to get a copy administratively but was advised that it had been to Cabinet for consideration, so it was 'Cabinet in confidence' and not able to be released.  No point then RTI either.

The real plans would be in that document.  My guess is CAMCOS would not be in it.  Pity it is hidden.

The only rail projects that seem to be 'live' at the moment in SEQ apart from CRR/ETCS are B2N  https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/beerburrum-to-nambour-rail-upgrade which still talks about " The full scope of the business case for B2N includes a duplication of the North Coast Line between Beerburrum and Landsborough stations ..."

and  Kuraby - Beenleigh > IA https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/map/gold-coast-rail-line-and-station-improvements

They are struggling to remove LXs, don't know where the $$$ will come from for CAMCOS, Salisbury - Beaudesert, Springfield ext, Cleveland line amplifications and new trains.   

[Fares_Fair]

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