The Sunshine Coast Case : Rail duplication Beerburrum to Nambour

[HappyTrainGuy]

Nice.

Is there a long term vision for the maximum train length they want? 1500m?

Guess it depends on passing loops all the way to Cairns....

Unlikely due to the suburban area.

[Fares_Fair]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/queensland-rail_construction-is-now-underway-on-the-extension-activity-6582511086740865024-hjwa

[Fares_Fair]

Nice.

Is there a long term vision for the maximum train length they want? 1500m?

Guess it depends on passing loops all the way to Cairns....

When I met with Warren Truss (then Shadow Minister for Infrastructure and Transport) in April 2013, he said that they wanted to run 1900m freight trains up the north coast line. I told him it wasn't possible, and why (short passing loops). The longer the freight train, the better. We're still a way off from even a 1500m freight train.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Many politicians have been wanting things done but have never actually got anything done either because they don't really care or don't know what they are talking about. Usually its the later. You have passing loops. You have loading facilities. You have signalling. You have track speeds/alignment. And the suburban area. Roma Street had something around a 7-8 minute transit time for 1 1.9km train from a standing start to clear the next signal.

[Fares_Fair]

And interestingly, Cross River Rail will also do absolutely nothing for freight.

[Gazza]

Wont it allow for more Merivale Bridge movements?

[aldonius]

Wont it allow for more Merivale Bridge movements?

That's only really helpful for Northside to/from Port movements, because there's no track amplification south of the tunnel.

[Stillwater]

No start soon for rail duplication north of Beerburrum. Lots of money for commuters forced onto their cars and who use the Bruce Highway to get to Brisbane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0MZAPcP8Oo&feature=youtu.be

[Stillwater]

Story in the Queensland Times of 10 October suggests that the North Coast Connect business case has been delayed until next year.

https://www.qt.com.au/news/highspeed-rail-plan-back-on-the-table-as-southeast/3545384

[achiruel]

^ Shouldn't stop TMR from getting on with duplicating Beeburrum-Landsborough. This really needs to start ASAP!

[ozbob]

Story in the Queensland Times of 10 October suggests that the North Coast Connect business case has been delayed until next year.

https://www.qt.com.au/news/highspeed-rail-plan-back-on-the-table-as-southeast/3545384

That article is a year old ..

[Stillwater]

^Apologies, didn't check date.  The business case is overdue.

[ozbob]

Interview ABC Brisbane Radio - Drive, with host Steve Austin with Jeff Addison RBoT Sunshine Coast spokesperson 15th Oct 2019

Topics: ontime running (northern group) and Sunshine Coast line.

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_ja15oct19.mp3  MP3 11.4MB

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th October 2019

Coming back to bite ...

Good Morning,

For your listening pleasure:

Interview ABC Brisbane Radio - Drive, with host Steve Austin with Jeff Addison RBoT Sunshine Coast spokesperson 15th Oct 2019

Topics: ontime running (northern group) and Sunshine Coast line.

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_ja15oct19.mp3  MP3 11.4MB

You are very welcome.  Queensland Votes 2020.

Where is the TransLink Tracker for Q4 2018/19 ( https://www.publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/translink-division-quarterly-reports )?  Hit a track fault?  There is a deliberate policy of delayed data reporting in Queensland and it is time it was changed to one of prompt data reporting and true transparency.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1184123580100960256

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/SteveMinnikinMP/status/1184256480322523141

[achiruel]

^ LNP are full of promises but did nothing positive for rail last time they were in Government, and a lot of bad things (NGR, RPL signalling).

Yes, ALP haven't been great either. But at least they have done something (Caboolture-Beerburrum). LNP have zero credibility on this issue. ALP have about 1/20.

[kram0]

^ LNP are full of promises but did nothing positive for rail last time they were in Government, and a lot of bad things (NGR, RPL signalling).

Yes, ALP haven't been great either. But at least they have done something (Caboolture-Beerburrum). LNP have zero credibility on this issue. ALP have about 1/20.

So if the ALP are 1/20 and the LNP 0/20 as your stating, it would not take much for the LNP to catch up or overtake.

Also, if you aggregated that score over the time each party has been in power and had the ability to do something, clearly it demonstrates Labor give less f%&ks than the LNP.

[Stillwater]

We all seem to be accepting that the SCL Upgrade depends on a political outcome, when that is fundamentally wrong.  As a state, we have not moved on much from the Bjelke-Petersen days when old Joh was quite open about these things ... "if you want your new [hospital] [school] [railway line], remember to vote for [Jim] [Bill] [Frank], your National Party candidate."

This project stacks up however you look at it ... and it has been examined 16 or so times in various forms, every which-way, redesigned, rescoped and rescheduled to avoid having to bite the bullet and just building it.

We might as well all rock up to the polling booth and place a token in the jar indicating the local project we want built, forget BCRs and business cases.

[Fares_Fair]

Regarding rail achievements under the Blue team during their short term from March 2012 to January 2015, compared to Red team who have been in power for 25 of the past 30 years, as at 7 December 2019.
These facts speak for themselves.
When the Blue team were in power I had a number of public stoushes with them over rail issues, including with Tim Nicholls MP over political blackmail and Premier Campbell Newman over Sunshine Coast rail duplication priorities as well as Scott Emerson MP over toilets on trains.
That said.

BLUE TEAM: Sunshine Coast had 359 services/week in January 2015, receiving an extra 10 trains/week in 2014.
RED TEAM: Sunshine Coast has 320 services/week today. Our services have been cut under the present govt.

BLUE TEAM: Sunshine Coast promised 150 extra services/week.
RED TEAM: Sunshine Coast promised 45 extra trains/week for 2016. NOT delivered to this day and NO commitment to any extra services for us.

BLUE TEAM: Sunshine Coast promised toilets on all peak services by Scott Emerson MP, in 2014 (after my meticulous records and a public campaign that led to a SC Daily story). Delivered.
RED TEAM: Sunshine Coast not delivered any improvements in total service levels.

BLUE TEAM: Sunshine Coast promised #2tracks rail duplication in 50% / 50% funding split with the Federal Govt should they win power on 31 October 2020.
RED TEAM: Sunshine Coast promised #2tracks rail duplication with 20% state govt funding, leaving us 30% short of the full cost. Still squabbling over funding split, yet were paying 100% in 2009 when they stopped the works.

I concur with SW, It should never be political, it should be about need. It should be about a Premier governing for all as she has stated in the past - but clearly that hasn't been the case.
If that was the case we would have had our rail duplication completed some 7 years ago by Red team. (Promised in 2006 by Paul Lucas MP, to be completed by 2012).

[Gazza]

But stuff like toilets on trains is pretty small beer compared the big one, getting cross River Rail started.

Re the number of services...how is that calculated?

The current government eliminated shuttles, Which is pretty bloody good .

And built Woombye stabling.

[Fares_Fair]

But stuff like toilets on trains is pretty small beer compared the big one, getting cross River Rail started.

Re the number of services...how is that calculated?

The current government eliminated shuttles, Which is pretty bloody good .

And built Woombye stabling.

Hi Gazza,

Any long distance commuter or child or the elderly may disagree about the importance of on-board amenities.

Agree, Cross River Rail is huge. It will also have some huge issues that I am not at liberty to discuss here as yet. That said, a second river crossing is needed and welcomed.

How is it calculated? From the publicly available timetables. I have counted them all since January 2014, when we got the 2 new trains. Published all here on the Forum. Anyone is free to check.

They did build Woombye Stabling, finished in 2016 and it still sits vacant of the trains it was specifically designed to hold. The NGR's

[HappyTrainGuy]

The lnp duplication was reliant on cashflow from privatising about $40 billion worth of other state assets.  So not really a win there.

[Fares_Fair]

Yes, the 2015 promise of $532 million for #2tracks was to come out of long term asset leases (not sales) expected to earn the state $37.6 billion. Of that about $8.6 billion was to be set aside for infrastructure projects.

If we were to calculate which party has privatised more assets I think you may be somewhat surprised at the answer. Ports, water and rail freight were all privatised under red team.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I know. Not all rail assets were sold. Aurizon has a 92 year lease left on the railway infrastructure. Crazy that QR owns it outright but has to pay fees to aurizon to run QR trains on it.

Also wombye/Elimbah stabling was a part of the ngr project to reduce dead running for peak services but due to issues with the ngrs their intended use and the lines they operate has changed eg exclusively on the Gold Coast line and the majority of Redcliffe-Springfield services with emus/smu200/smu220 being put on Ferny Grove-Beenleigh services - which has meant the dead running and the limited paths in use remain the same. If ngrs were designed and built correctly wombye would be in use today similar to how Elimbah now forms some morning peak services out of caboolture.

[Gazza]

But stuff like toilets on trains is pretty small beer compared the big one, getting cross River Rail started.

Re the number of services...how is that calculated?

The current government eliminated shuttles, Which is pretty bloody good .

And built Woombye stabling.

Hi Gazza,

Any long distance commuter or child or the elderly may disagree about the importance of on-board amenities.

Agree, Cross River Rail is huge. It will also have some huge issues that I am not at liberty to discuss here as yet. That said, a second river crossing is needed and welcomed.

How is it calculated? From the publicly available timetables. I have counted them all since January 2014, when we got the 2 new trains. Published all here on the Forum. Anyone is free to check.

They did build Woombye Stabling, finished in 2016 and it still sits vacant of the trains it was specifically designed to hold. The NGR's

I never said toilets aren't important, just that a rail operator managing to merely doing their job and provide toilets is not on the same level of government achievement as a multi billion dollar investment.

Also, for the timetable, these are the numbers ive gotten:

-The number of rail services in 2019 is higher
234 a week versus 243 today.

-All those services run a consistent timetable, except for the Gympielander
-Shuttles were eliminated
-Timetables are now clockface

The number of rail buses has reduced, so if you were a fan of them the SC is worse off, but in terms of the actual RAIL operation, i think 2019 is better.

[#Metro]

I never said toilets aren't important, just that a rail operator managing to merely doing their job and provide toilets is not on the same level of government achievement as a multi billion dollar investment.

This is a good justification for not paying bonuses to Queensland Rail at all, unless there has been something on the level of a natural disaster or similar that warrants it.

[achiruel]

I never said toilets aren't important, just that a rail operator managing to merely doing their job and provide toilets is not on the same level of government achievement as a multi billion dollar investment.

This is a good justification for not paying bonuses to Queensland Rail at all, unless there has been something on the level of a natural disaster or similar that warrants it.

Considering the NGR procurement was largely taken out of QR's hands, maybe it should rather be a reason to not pay bonuses to DTMR staff involved in the decision-making process.

[ozbob]

[Fares_Fair]

Hi Gazza,

I note your points about the number of trains overall.
Are 11 trains better than 55 less bus services (think frequency). My figures.
I see that our overall transport services have been reduced by 44/week since Jan 2014, on my figures.

There are more rail buses than you have allowed for in your figures and that is partly because the timetable from 2014 had an error on the second page where a number of the rail buses were not highlighted (emphasized) in pale green.

We had 130 rail buses in 2014 (including the 4 short run 'Landsborough to Beerwah' buses). We had 234 trains/week. Total services 364.
We have 75 rail buses in 2019. We have 245 trains/week. Total services 320.

Our total services reduction is 44 less/week, a not insignificant figure for one of the fast growth regions in SEQ.
Weekend services (numbers) also have not changed in the last 5 years.

TT Issued      20-Jan-14            TT Issued       29-Jul-19      
                      Train   Bus                               Train   Bus   
Outbound   Mon-Thur   80   52         Outbound   Mon-Thur   80   32   
           Fri           20   13                    Fri           20   8   
           Sat           11                       Sat           11      
           Sun           12                       Sun           12      
Inbound   Mon-Thur   68   52         Inbound   Mon-Thur   76   28   
           Fri           17   13                    Fri           20   7   
           Sat           14                       Sat           14      
           Sun           12                       Sun           12      
                              
Weekly             234   130                              245   75   
                              
TOTAL WEEKLY SERVICES      364         TOTAL WEEKLY SERVICES         320   

Apology, I tidy the edit of the table up in modify mode but it changes when it gets published.

[Gazza]

Those short run ones are f%cking useless though.... didn't they literally just chase a train and arrive like 15 mins after it?

If we are counting "services" I don't see how something like that is worth the same as an express train all the way to the cbd

Here's the real litmus test, would passengers prefer the old timetable or the new one overall?

[achiruel]

Those short run ones are f%cking useless though.... didn't they literally just chase a train and arrive like 15 mins after it?

If we are counting "services" I don't see how something like that is worth the same as an express train all the way to the cbd

Here's the real litmus test, would passengers prefer the old timetable or the new one overall?

I could be wrong, I thought the short run buses' main purpose in life was to deliver passengers to the zoo, maybe they even did a slight deviation to get there?

[Gazza]

Then is that even a rail service?

Its like counting the TX7 on the Gold Coast as a Gold Coast Line service

[Fares_Fair]

They are ALL on our train timetable.
Our service levels are abysmal for our region.
No question.

[Fares_Fair]

Watching an interesting special on the queensland railways on @SBS .
Secrets of the railway on SBS One HD.
Military use and the Pacific War of WW2.

[Gazza]

They are ALL on our train timetable.
Our service levels are abysmal for our region.
No question.

Ok but as a passenger what do you prefer, the old timetable or the new?

[Stillwater]

It is astonishing that, as advocate Jeff Addison reveals, the benefits of job creation (temporary and permanent) have not been factored into the business case for SCL duplication, yet were assessed for the CRR business case justification. 

[#Metro]

It is astonishing that, as advocate Jeff Addison reveals, the benefits of job creation (temporary and permanent) have not been factored into the business case for SCL duplication, yet were assessed for the CRR business case justification.

If they are linked to the project works, they are a cost not a benefit.

[ozbob]

https://buildingqueensland.qld.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Building-Queensland-Business-Case-LR.pdf

Page 4.

Cross River Rail is an economical and efficient
transit solution. With a benefit cost ratio (BCR)
of 1.41, for every $1 of total expenditure Cross
River Rail is expected to return $1.41 of benefits.
The benefits of the project exceed costs by $1.9
billion in net present value terms. This does not
take into account $1.2 billion (present value) of
wider economic benefits, such as greater density
of economic activity, reduced transport cost
for business or more people participating in the
workforce. Cross River Rail is expected to generate
about 1,500 jobs a year during construction and
500 jobs a year during its operation.

CRR see jobs as a ' benefit '.

Not enough red cordial being drunk  ...

[#Metro]

Cross River Rail is expected to generate
about 1,500 jobs a year during construction and
500 jobs a year during its operation.

It is not a benefit. The claim of 500 jobs per year also needs more detail and scrutiny. Are these direct or indirect?

The fact that they include that sentence above in the same paragraph as a discussion about benefits does not make it a benefit.

I think about it this way:  If the number of jobs required to construct Cross River Rail were doubled, would the costs of the project go up or down?

If the project's costs are going up, then it is definitely a cost...

I'm surprised spin like this made it into a BQ report like that ... it is supposed to have a measure of independence.

The job benefits may come about in another way, e.g transporting people to a place of work that they couldn't otherwise get to, but IMHO

that is already captured in the valuation of time calculations.