Cross River Rail (CRR) - Is it really required or is there an alternative ?

[Fares_Fair]

Cross River Rail (CRR) - Is it really required or is there an alternative ?

The report below is part of my overall assessment of the North Coast Line.
Does the statement mentioned and highlighted in bold say that the CRR may not be required if 1500m freight trains are accommodated on the NCL?
I assume it refers only to freight and not passenger sevices which is what the CRR is all about?


Point 10.
Inner City Rail Capacity Study - Stage 3 Freight Analysis (2008),
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/af53e52d-d3ef-4e57-a3c6-cb2d650cef2c/pdf_icrcs_stage_3_technical_pre_feasibility_appendix_b.pdf


This report produced for Queensland Transport by SYSTEMWIDE, states in Chapter 9;
Conclusion  p25,
"From an inner city perspective, the best course of action for the future of freight is to increase the North coast intermodal train consist lengths to 1500m. Doing so will alleviate the need to upgrade the inner city, and will allow the current (desired) freight distribution to be maintained with operational viability. If 1500m trains cannot be accommodated, the freight services should be spread apart ...

This will avoid infrastructure upgrades to the inner city under medium growth, and only requires a fifth track around Roma West junction under high growth to ensure a robust operation.
 
The freight curfew should remain, as running freight services during the peak hour can only be achieved by extensive additional infrastructure, or by removing passenger services causing unacceptable overloading."

The North Coast Line (NCL) is limited by the length of the smallest loop, currently 682 m.
(i.e. no freight train longer than 670 metres can be currently accommodated.

What are the professional views or otherwise on this report. I assume it means freight improvements only through the city?

[SurfRail]

It means there would be little to no need for the dedicated freight track between Milton and Northgate they identified, and really only has any impact on the Caboolture-Ipswich sector (ie "main") lines.  CRR is very much an issue for "Sector 2".

There are of course cheaper options, like the Park Road to Bowen Hills amplification (including Merivale Bridge duplication) and additional approach tracks from Yeerongpilly - but these do not generate the same economic benefit as CRR.

[somebody]

There are of course cheaper options, like the Park Road to Bowen Hills amplification (including Merivale Bridge duplication) and additional approach tracks from Yeerongpilly - but these do not generate the same economic benefit as CRR.

Would Merivale bridge duplication be cheaper by the time you amplify Roma St-Bowen Hills?

[SurfRail]

There are of course cheaper options, like the Park Road to Bowen Hills amplification (including Merivale Bridge duplication) and additional approach tracks from Yeerongpilly - but these do not generate the same economic benefit as CRR.

Would Merivale bridge duplication be cheaper by the time you amplify Roma St-Bowen Hills?

It was costed at $4bn wasn't it?  Or was that just the Park Road to Roma Street stretch?

Either way, the opportunities you get with Cross River Rail just don't happen with that plan - no new stations, even more pressure on Central and Roma Street, no faster journeys, no possible Alderley and Trouts Road link, no impetus for redevelopment, no high-capacity PT for Gabba events etc.

[O_128]

There are of course cheaper options, like the Park Road to Bowen Hills amplification (including Merivale Bridge duplication) and additional approach tracks from Yeerongpilly - but these do not generate the same economic benefit as CRR.

Would Merivale bridge duplication be cheaper by the time you amplify Roma St-Bowen Hills?

It was costed at $4bn wasn't it?  Or was that just the Park Road to Roma Street stretch?

Either way, the opportunities you get with Cross River Rail just don't happen with that plan - no new stations, even more pressure on Central and Roma Street, no faster journeys, no possible Alderley and Trouts Road link, no impetus for redevelopment, no high-capacity PT for Gabba events etc.

I agree the 8 billion for CRR will kick start the gabba and boggo road, the gabba will become a second CBD, The gabba will get proper PT facilities for gamedays, the city finally gets a station inside of it.

I would like to see a Bowen hills- roma st west septuplication as well however.

[somebody]

It was costed at $4bn wasn't it?  Or was that just the Park Road to Roma Street stretch?

I don't think I saw that one.

[Stillwater]

So, if existing track was altered to accommodate 1500m freight trains, thus doing away with the need for a dedicated freight track between Northgate and Milton, could the notional savings in not having a Northgate-Milton freight track be split -- some to the cost of 1500m passing loops, where required (strategically placed so as to allow precision passenger rail crossovers up Nambour way) and the rest to be pocketed as a saving to be applied to the cost of a 'bare bones' CRR, now thought to be around the $5 billion mark.  That $5 billion figure now makes sense because of the $4 billion cost of duplicating the Merivale Bridge.  The $1 billion 'extra' buys a link via the 'gabba.  Sensible.

[SurfRail]

I would like to see a Bowen hills- roma st west septuplication as well however.

Presume you mean "sextup-" as "septup-" would give you 7 – being nitpicky, I know.  

With Cross River Rail and Trouts Road, your 3 track-pair platform configuration at Roma Street could look nice and legible like this:

4 - Manly/Cleveland
5 - Tennyson via South Bris/Springfield
6 - Ferny Grove
7 - Airport/Doomben

8 - Redbank/Ipswich
9 - Shorncliffe/Strathpine

"11" - CRR south (1st platform face) – Kuraby/Flagstone
"12" - CRR south (2nd platform face) - Gold Coast/Beenleigh
"13" - CRR north (1st platform face) - Kippa-Ring/Petrie
"15" - CRR north (2nd platform face) - Sunshine Coast/Caboolture

Obviously there are flat junction conflicts still, but the alternative is trying to squeeze all Ipswich corridor trains onto a single platform face at both Central and Roma Street, which does not sound fun.

[somebody]

Obviously there are flat junction conflicts still, but the alternative is trying to squeeze all Ipswich corridor trains onto a single platform face at both Central and Roma Street, which does not sound fun.

Not only is the concept of all via Darra trains on a single platform not fun, it would significantly reduce the benefit which CRR would offer, what ever way you turn it.

[SteelPan]

CRR happens - or the entire SE Qld urban rail network grinds to a standstill - with no chance of future growth!
Mind you, I also support the long-term development of Newman's subway plan! 

[Stillwater]

FF, for the government's objective of Sunshine Coast-Brisbane travel by rail in about an hour requires the following elements to be in place, it would seem:

Cross River Rail, then tunnel to about Windsor, the North-West Transport Corridor (Trouts Road corridor) between Strathpine and Alderley, track augmentation to Caboolture, duplication between Beerburrum and Landsborough and then CAMCOS to Calountra initially, but finally from there to Maroochydore.  Additional rolling stock will be needed (IMU trains with potential maximum speeds of 160 km/hr).

All up, that's about $17 billion, and probably $21 billion when work starts, $24 billion when work finishes.

[ozbob]

All up, that's about $17 billion, and probably $21 billion when work starts, $24 billion when work finishes.

Let's run a chook raffle .... 

[BrizCommuter]

FF, for the government's objective of Sunshine Coast-Brisbane travel by rail in about an hour requires the following elements to be in place, it would seem:

Cross River Rail, then tunnel to about Windsor, the North-West Transport Corridor (Trouts Road corridor) between Strathpine and Alderley, track augmentation to Caboolture, duplication between Beerburrum and Landsborough and then CAMCOS to Calountra initially, but finally from there to Maroochydore.  Additional rolling stock will be needed (IMU trains with potential maximum speeds of 160 km/hr).

All up, that's about $17 billion, and probably $21 billion when work starts, $24 billion when work finishes.

The North-West Transport corridor is unlikely to use parts of the Ferny Grove Line. The plans are for it be tunnelled and join with CRR opposite Victoria Park, or tunnelled to Roma Street with it's own platforms. Of course, with CRR being required first, this is all pie in the sky anyway.

[Stillwater]

Agreed BC, thanks for the clarification.  So long as the Queensland Government continues to point to the 'pie in the sky' option, it distracts them and others away from the more doable project to improve Sunshine Coast line services, which is duplication to Nambour.  It serves tilt train/Sunlander, passenger rail and freight rail.  (The North Coast Line transports 11 million tonnes of goods each year.)  Lets say $4 billion for Beerburrum-Nambour duplication.  Big money, but reasonable outcomes.  CRR still needed quickly though.

[somebody]

The North-West Transport corridor is unlikely to use parts of the Ferny Grove Line. The plans are for it be tunnelled and join with CRR opposite Victoria Park, or tunnelled to Roma Street with it's own platforms. Of course, with CRR being required first, this is all pie in the sky anyway.

Let's hope that CRR considers the NW requirements then?  I'm not sure that connection to the FG line has been ruled out at all.  Much can change and there is no guarantee about the NW project proceeding in our lifetimes.

[mufreight]

Agreed BC, thanks for the clarification.  So long as the Queensland Government continues to point to the 'pie in the sky' option, it distracts them and others away from the more doable project to improve Sunshine Coast line services, which is duplication to Nambour.  It serves tilt train/Sunlander, passenger rail and freight rail.  (The North Coast Line transports 11 million tonnes of goods each year.)  Lets say $4 billion for Beerburrum-Nambour duplication.  Big money, but reasonable outcomes.  CRR still needed quickly though.

Without CRR there is no capacity for additional passenger services to or from the north (Sunshine Coast) through the CBD
Without track amplification between Petrie and Northgate the line between Petrie and Northgate will not have sufficent capacity to cope with the KippaRing line services
Without the duplication of the NCL from Beerburrum to Nambour that line lacks the capacity for any expansion of services and there is no capacity for CAMCOS.
The obvious sequence of infrastructure upgrades is CRR first then realignment and duplication of Beerburrum to Nambour then as a precursor to the construction of KippaRing track amplification of Petrie to Northgate.
The linchpin for increased and improved passenger rail services is without question CRR.
Attempting to further delay this project with a box of band aids will cost more over time with any other projects such as NCL track amplifications and KippaRing being underutilised until the additional core capacity that CRR will provide becomes avaliable.
OzBob has suggested a chook raffle to raise funds, from some of the posts relating to this thread and their content there are obviously enough headless chooks running around that we could raffle off.

[somebody]

Without track amplification between Petrie and Northgate the line between Petrie and Northgate will not have sufficent capacity to cope with the KippaRing line services

Well, that seems to be happening.  I presume there will be a reduction in Caboolture line services.

[BrizCommuter]

Without track amplification between Petrie and Northgate the line between Petrie and Northgate will not have sufficent capacity to cope with the KippaRing line services

Well, that seems to be happening.  I presume there will be a reduction in Caboolture line services.

I would assume that peak Kippa-Ring services will be an extension of Petrie services. The am peak will have 18tph, 9tph Caboolture/Sunshine Coast, 9tph Petrie/Kippa-Ring, same allocation as at present. The big if, is can these services run express between Northgate and Bowen Hills prior to CRR to allow for extra passenger capacity for patronage growth? Probably not.

[somebody]

That's probably more likely, but I view it as a mediocre option.

[mufreight]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

[somebody]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

Which is why it is necessary to remove at least the Nundah and Toombul pax from the Caboolture line.  Preferably Albion & Wooloowin also.

[BrizCommuter]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

Which is why it is necessary to remove at least the Nundah and Toombul pax from the Caboolture line.  Preferably Albion & Wooloowin also.

...and there lies the problem. 21tph reduced to 4tph at Nundah and Toombul? Don't think that would go down too well!

[somebody]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

Which is why it is necessary to remove at least the Nundah and Toombul pax from the Caboolture line.  Preferably Albion & Wooloowin also.

...and there lies the problem. 21tph reduced to 4tph at Nundah and Toombul? Don't think that would go down too well!

They would need to get over it, I'm afraid.  The overall system cannot sustain pandering to these minority interests.

Bring back Sir Joh!

[SurfRail]

They would need to get over it, I'm afraid.  The overall system cannot sustain pandering to these minority interests.

Bring back Sir Joh!

I'd be pretty cheesed orf if I was living considerably closer to the city in an efficient apartment of the sort springing up adjacent to these 2 stationd than somebody living in a detached house at Burpengary, yet the person at Burpengary has an easier time travelling to the CBD.  Sends entirely the wrong message in planning terms.

I expect you will need to have 3 separate patterns - Kippa-Ring and Caboolture expresses and Petrie all-stoppers, with 9 car sets for stations north of Petrie and maybe 10 minute headways on each service, which will leave some space left for the Sunshine Coast.  You can immediately see the problems with this once those services are full.

Possible problem here is Kippa-Ring, which I believe is not being designed to accommodate 9-car services - however the Caboolture line stations north of and including Petrie could be lengthened easily enough.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Until you get to the busiest station of them all only to find out that 9 cars might not be all that easy to fit into Central.

[Mr X]

They would need to get over it, I'm afraid.  The overall system cannot sustain pandering to these minority interests.

Bring back Sir Joh!

Easy for you to say; you don't live there.

Cutting services sounds all fine and dandy, but in real life you gotta think of the actual people who use the service!

[somebody]

4tph clockface all stops (vs express BH-EJ) would be a far better service than currently at Dutton Park-Yeronga, and also better than what any review is likely to generate at those locations, due to the via Merivale Bridge alignment.  The current timetable still has peak gaps of 6-9 minutes.  Sorry to Toombul and Nundah.

They would need to get over it, I'm afraid.  The overall system cannot sustain pandering to these minority interests.

Bring back Sir Joh!

Easy for you to say; you don't live there.

Cutting services sounds all fine and dandy, but in real life you gotta think of the actual people who use the service!

I disagree.  You have to think of the effect on the overall system.

[mufreight]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

Which is why it is necessary to remove at least the Nundah and Toombul pax from the Caboolture line.  Preferably Albion & Wooloowin also.

Obviously there are some who are deficent in simple mathamatics X numbers of passengers require Y number of trains, once the track capacity is reached the number of services that can be operated is also reached as is the limit of the numbers of passengers that can be moved.
The object of the exercise is to improve service levels not buy bandaids by reducing levels of service.
Now when do we start the chook raffle.

[somebody]

Time to give some thought to the numbers of commuters who would utilise these services based on the Transport Department projections when KippaRing is brought into service and you are proposing armpit sniffer Bombay express standard services.
Obviously time for a chook raffle to make use of some of the headless chooks on site.

Which is why it is necessary to remove at least the Nundah and Toombul pax from the Caboolture line.  Preferably Albion & Wooloowin also.

Obviously there are some who are deficent in simple mathamatics X numbers of passengers require Y number of trains, once the track capacity is reached the number of services that can be operated is also reached as is the limit of the numbers of passengers that can be moved.
The object of the exercise is to improve service levels not buy bandaids by reducing levels of service.
Now when do we start the chook raffle.

Might I suggest a chill pill?

If you are going to post such things, I think it is incumbent on you to actually specify how many passengers you are suggesting will be using the service.

[somebody]

Here are the forecasts I asked mufreight to provide, in case anyone else is interested:

Table 7 – 2016 Daily Boardings and Alightings per station
Boardings : Alightings
9606 : 10752
Table 8 – 2031 Daily Boardings and Alightings per station
Boardings : Alightings
16042 : 19130

Compared to approx 11k peak Boardings Virginia and a lesser number of peak alightings from the 2009 QR survey

Source: http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/3944d5ab-d3e0-4fcf-b1f1-3a343068cc6c/mbrlpe%20report.pdf Which lists: MBRL project (based on BSTM MM model) as the source.

The trouble is that we don't have a forecast for the patronage in the busiest 1 hour.  Nor do we know how long the peak in the survey lasts for AFAIK.  I would assume that a sizeable portion of the daily patronage for the K-R line occurs in the busiest 90 minutes, and would further suggest that a busiest one hour patronage of about 6k pax in 2016 is pretty reasonable.  Add about 2k for Eagle Junction and Northgate pax and 8k for Virginia-Nambour pax.

Seems an average of 800 people per service, which isn't completely comfortable, but far from an "armpit sniffer".  I feel this estimate is very much on the high side.  Increasing temporal spreading from present would be a way of reducing this crowding.

The fact remains it is likely to happen this way (Kippa-Ring before CRR), and it is no good simply saying that it can't be done.  We need to work out how to make the best of the situation.  Or at least the planners do.

[mufreight]

That works out to 16000 pax over a 0ne hour period, 20 trains with an 800pax load or one train every three minutes, effectively about two trains per hour more than the practical capacity of the Petrie - Lawnton bottleneck.

[somebody]

Timetable shows 20tph (9 trains) I/B from 7:21am to 7:45am @ Petrie.

[mufreight]

Timetable shows 20tph (9 trains) I/B from 7:21am to 7:45am @ Petrie.

Theory says that a train every three minutes is possible,
The reality is that in practice only 18 trains per hour is sustainable and reliable.

[somebody]

I think that level of reliability will need to be accepted post Kippa-Ring.  If it's acceptable now, it doesn't make sense to say that it won't be acceptable in the future.

[O_128]

I think that level of reliability will need to be accepted post Kippa-Ring.  If it's acceptable now, it doesn't make sense to say that it won't be acceptable in the future.

Line is being triplicated as part of MBRL right?, i think RBOT needs to push that the bridge is capable for 4 tracks in the future. Should we push for triplication to caboolture as well?

[SurfRail]

4 from Petrie to Northgate should be pursued so you can reliably separate express from stopping traffic in this stretch to allow counter-peak express, and to avoid lots of facing moves at Petrie once Kippa-Ring is built.  

There should be enough room to do most of this stretch without big resumptions of private land except in the really tight spots (eg Geebung and Zillmere stations).  Fortunately, most of the property fronting the railway around this stretch is commercial or vacant and could likely bear the loss without any significant hardship.

I would even suggest the same as far as Kuraby, although long term the line needs to be straightened with extreme prejudice (eg station and tunnel under Pinelands Road and close Sunnybank/Altandi).  And of course, get 4 electric tracks Corinda to Darra too.

[SurfRail]

Corinda to Darra looks reasonably straight on a map.  Is it actually speed restricted?

Clarified my comment above - the track layout, not the alignment.

[mufreight]

I think that level of reliability will need to be accepted post Kippa-Ring.  If it's acceptable now, it doesn't make sense to say that it won't be acceptable in the future.

Line is being triplicated as part of MBRL right?, i think RBOT needs to push that the bridge is capable for 4 tracks in the future. Should we push for triplication to caboolture as well?

Some on RBoT have been pushing for any new bridge to be double track which gives the possibility of four tracks to Petrie to Lawnton as an initial step with a staged construction of the fourth line back to Northgate to provide the capacity that will be needed in the foreseeable future with KippaRing and the increased traffic both passenger and freight on the line north of Petrie even without CAMCOS

[somebody]

If you could quad the bit from Northgate to Lawnton, it wouldn't make sense to not go over the river.  Is there much chance of that?  I'd also prefer an up-up-down-down arrangement with a couple of flyovers rather than up-down-up-down, although I am open to counter arguments.

[O_128]

If you could quad the bit from Northgate to Lawnton, it wouldn't make sense to not go over the river.  Is there much chance of that?  I'd also prefer an up-up-down-down arrangement with a couple of flyovers rather than up-down-up-down, although I am open to counter arguments.

It didn't make sense to not triplicate to petrie but they didn't. So should RBOT push for quadding from lawnton to petrie and from petrie to the MbRL split.