Dwell times in new timetable

[HappyTrainGuy]

What about timing trains to meet each other at level crossings? ie Geebung, Sunshine and Carseldine are very well timed together (Just check out morning peak as everything flows very nicely with trains all meeting up with each other). In the previous timetable it wasn't uncommon to see buses stuck in a traffic jam waiting for the traffic to even out because of some boomgates. Without a doubt trains could be sped up if it didn't mean that they have to take traffic flows into account too.

[somebody]

Certainly, maybe a thread with scans of old timetables would be useful.

Here is BrizCommuter's word on the slowdown.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/11/queensland-rail-now-18-slower.html

For the Ipswich bound TT, more than half the slow down occurred in the last timetable.  The April 2010 timetable took 53 minutes to reach Ipswich from Central, and there was a 1 minute dwell at Roma St, so 50 minutes Roma St->Ipswich.  So 4 minutes of fat was added in the 15 years from 1995 to 2010, and 5 minutes in the 8 months from October 2010 to June 2011.  Reliability of the October 2010 timetable could have been poor at Ipswich.  The Central->Corinda section contained the entire slow down vs the 1995 timetable.  There were a couple of timing differences beyond here though.

I can definitely say that the reliability of the old timetable was mediocre at Indooroopilly inbound.  Usual was for trains from Ipswich to be two minutes late.  That never annoyed me though - usually they would get back to time by Central. Fortunately, the new timetable has sped up the Roma St->Central time by 1 minute, and kept the same timings Indooroopilly->Roma St.  The October 2010 timetable had an inbound time of 54 minutes vs 58 minutes for the June 2011 timetable, so this slow down is slightly less.

[Fares_Fair]

Can we have the old timetables centralised somewhere on the forum. It would be good to get a graph of each line and times over at least 3 time points. Say '80s, mid 90's and 00's and today if possible.

We can them make a graph.

I second the motion, they would make for great news stories too.
A graph for each timetable would be awesome.
I know someone who specialises in graphs ...  

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

FWIW, the slow down between the 1995 Ipswich timetable and Oct 2010 timetable inbound is:
1 minute Goodna -> Gailes
1 minute Sherwood -> Graceville
1 minute Taringa -> Toowong
1 minute Roma St -> Central

The slow down between Oct 2010 and June 2011 inbound is:
1 minute East Ipswich -> Booval
1 minute Riverview -> Redbank
1 minute Redbank -> Goodna
1 minute Wacol -> Darra
1 minute Graceville -> Chelmer
-1 minute Roma St -> Central

The bizarre part about this is slowing down from the second stop of the run.  That is very unlikely to improve reliability.  Also the slow downs on either side of Redbank.

It is very welcome removing the 1 minute of fat from Roma St to Central though.  That was a bit of an affront to rail users IMO.

Current timetable has:
Outbound Riverview -> Dinmore is 1 minute slower than inbound.  Inbound Goodna -> Gailes is 1 minute slower than outbound.
Inbound Wacol -> Darra is 1 minute slower than outbound.  Outbound Wacol -> Gailes 1 minute slower than inbound.
It's reasonable to assume that the reason for these differences is to have the fat occurring later in the trip and therefore increase the probability of getting back to time.

So I was bored.

[somebody]

Here are graphs of the slow down on the Ipswich Line:

Between the peaks:


Peak:


Is that useful?

I didn't include the Oct 2010 timetable in the peak trips as they seemed to be badly suffering from a bunching effect, due to the low track capacity beyond Corinda and an inhomogenous timetable.

[ozbob]

Excellent!  Tells the story ...

[colinw]

Very clearly shows that expresses today are no faster than the all stations was in the 1990s.

And that we've gone from the fastest express timing the line has had (in the 2006 timetable) to the slowest (in the current timetable).

Not good!

Does anyone have one of those "all lines" timetable books from the late '80s on hand?

[Fares_Fair]

Great work, Simon. 
Well done.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[colinw]

OT: Fares Fare, your new profile pic gives me the distinct impression that commuting by rail drives Sunny Coast commuters to drink!

[somebody]

It should also be noted that Robina->Central in the July 2007 timetable was 71 minutes off peak.  In the June 2011 timetable it is now 76 minutes.  85.35km, making 11 intermediate stops. 72km/h down to 67km/h

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

Not sure how to graph this one as the software doesn't allow for missing points.

[O_128]

It should also be noted that Robina->Central in the July 2007 timetable was 71 minutes off peak.  In the June 2011 timetable it is now 75 minutes.  85.35km, making 11 intermediate stops. 72km/h down to 68km/h

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

Not sure how to graph this one as the software doesn't allow for missing points.

wasn't the new triplication all realigned as well?

[Fares_Fair]

OT: Fares Fare, your new profile pic gives me the distinct impression that commuting by rail drives Sunny Coast commuters to drink!

OTR Cw   LOL ... didn't think of that angle.
but sadly for some it does, I have heard them say as much.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[colinw]

It should also be noted that Robina->Central in the July 2007 timetable was 71 minutes off peak.  In the June 2011 timetable it is now 75 minutes.  85.35km, making 11 intermediate stops. 72km/h down to 68km/h

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

Not sure how to graph this one as the software doesn't allow for missing points.

wasn't the new triplication all realigned as well?

Not really.  One curve between Fruitgrove & Runcorn was raised from an 80 board to a 100 board, but I suspect this was a case of better track geometry (superelevation so the train banks through the curve) rather than realignment.  The really slow curve at Sunnybank remains as bad as ever. No way to fix it without moving the station (or merging it with Banoon) and doing a lot of earthmoving!

[somebody]

Here's the Gold Coast 2007 vs 2011:



I think it clearly shows that the option to remove crossing delay has not been proceeded with after the duplications.

[somebody]

Here's Ferny Grove, again showing a clear link to new infrastructure and slower services:



And Beenleigh showing the same thing:



It seems that the Gold Coast line slowed down markedly between the July 2007 timetable and the March 2008 timetable.  That was when S2K opened, I believe.

[colinw]

Here's Ferny Grove, again showing a clear link to new infrastructure and slower services:

Oh dear!!!

This quote comes from was is probably the definitive history of the old QR, "Triumph of Narrow Gauge" by John Kerr (Boolarong Publications, 1990, ISBN 0 86439 102 1.). Discussing the electrification from Darra to Ferny Grove, Chapter 19, on page 213:

The largest single contract was let to Walkers-ASEA Pty Ltd for the construction of 13 three-car electric multiple units to operate the electrified line between Darra and Ferny Grove. Each three-car set comprised two motorized cars and one trailer, each car being 23 metres long. The trailer at one end and the motorize car at the other each had driving controls to enable operation in either direction. Acceleration exceeding 2.7 kilometres per hour per second and braking performance of 3.6 km/h per second enabled all-stops services to reach Ferny Grove in 25 minutes compared to 33 for diesel trains. ..."

Looks like we're nearly back where we started before the wires went up in '79!

May as well be running 2000 class railcars and SX sets with beautiful English Electric 1620s.  Or for really short dwells at stations, crossbench swingdoor Evans Cars.  Ok, I'm foaming now.

[colinw]

Simon, thanks for confirming what I thought was the case about the services from Beenleigh.  For most of the time I've lived here in Kuraby, it was 35 minutes to Roma St or 38 to Central. Not any more.

Your Beenleigh Line plot also clearly shows the effect of station spacing. Compare the time to get to Kuraby (22km), with the time from Kuraby to Beenleigh (41km). Yet the midpoint of the line (distance wise) is about Fruitgrove.  Time to cull some useless stations ...

[BrizCommuter]

Very interesting and somewhat concerning plots. Good work Simon!

[somebody]

Updated Ferny Grove and Beenleigh to include 1995 inbound trips.  I don't have the outbound timetables except for Ipswich.

[ozbob]

PDF doc of the charts --> here!

[Gazza]

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

The thing that ruins it is from Beenleigh in on the old allignment.

Mandurah averages 84 km/h..Quite good actually.

Its 49.4 km Beenleigh - Varsity in 35 minutes, and the average speed is also 84km/h.
This is the one section of line that actually matches Mandurah in terms of station spacing etc.

See, this is why I think the SEB would have been better as heavy rail. Even with all the current busway stops, it would have still been faster than using the old Beenleigh alignment for GC trains, and on the plus side, things like the Kuraby Triple (And the Kingston triple) would never have been needed.

[O_128]

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

The thing that ruins it is from Beenleigh in on the old allignment.

Mandurah averages 84 km/h..Quite good actually.

Its 49.4 km Beenleigh - Varsity in 35 minutes, and the average speed is also 84km/h.
This is the one section of line that actually matches Mandurah in terms of station spacing etc.

See, this is why I think the SEB would have been better as heavy rail. Even with all the current busway stops, it would have still been faster than using the old Beenleigh alignment for GC trains, and on the plus side, things like the Kuraby Triple (And the Kingston triple) would never have been needed.

SEB should have been heavy rail with the GC line tagged onto that. BUT then all those stations would be dealing with the crap 30 min frequency 

[somebody]

^ Yes, the GC line is reasonably good on the new bit.

Shorncliffe inbound was 31 minutes in the 1995 timetable, now 34-36 minutes.
Cleveland inbound was 51 minutes in the 1995 timetable, 64 minutes.

The only slow down since 1995 which doesn't exceed 10% is Shorncliffe and only for selected services, and some slow downs equal or exceed 20%.

It's also annoying that the slope Robina-Varsity Lakes is not flatter than Beenleigh-Robina, as the station spacing is roughly half.

[somebody]

Added Mar 2008 to the Gold Coast TT.

Airtrain has stayed about the same.

[ozbob]

PDF doc of the charts --> here!

Updated  PDF doc of the charts --> here!

[Set in train]

It should also be noted that Robina->Central in the July 2007 timetable was 71 minutes off peak.  In the June 2011 timetable it is now 76 minutes.  85.35km, making 11 intermediate stops. 72km/h down to 67km/h

Compare that to the Mandurah line which is 70.1km, making 9 intermediate stops in 50 minutes.  84km/h

Helensvale is roughly the same distance as Mandurah, 68.2 km.

It is this adding of time that discourages me from using rail over road. Have a look at the 1996 timetables and I'm sure the travel time to Helensvale would've been much faster.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It is this adding of time that discourages me from using rail over road. Have a look at the 1996 timetables and I'm sure the travel time to Helensvale would've been much faster.

Ehhh... Depends on how you look at it. Today their faster than the 96 timetable but their also slower in other parts. 1996 had them doing Beenleigh-Helensvale in 20 mins compared to 21 mins in 2007 and 19 minutes in 2011. 1996 had them doing Central-Beenleigh in 37-40 minutes*, 43 minutes in 2007 and 46 minutes in 2011. 96 also saw Gold Coast trains doing Central-Helensvale 64 minutes* (That got down to 60mins for some services) compared to 2007 doing the same trip in 64 mins and 65 min in 11. All the added fat is stored nice and plump somewhere in the Beenleigh line.

* = Gold Coast trains ran express South Brisbane to Beenleigh in 1996. GC trains also didn't run to a clock face all day. Track speeds have also increased across the whole line between the two timetables due to improvments, signaling, station removal on curves, alignment, work on the Trinder Park curve etc.

edit: added a bit that I missed.

[Set in train]

It is this adding of time that discourages me from using rail over road. Have a look at the 1996 timetables and I'm sure the travel time to Helensvale would've been much faster.

Ehhh... Depends on how you look at it. Today their faster than the 96 timetable but their also slower in other parts. 1996 had them doing Beenleigh-Helensvale in 20 mins compared to 21 mins in 2007 and 19 minutes in 2011. 1996 had them doing Central-Beenleigh in 37-40 minutes*, 43 minutes in 2007 and 46 minutes in 2011. 96 also saw Gold Coast trains doing Central-Helensvale 64 minutes* (That got down to 60mins for some services) compared to 2007 doing the same trip in 64 mins. All the added fat is stored nice and plump somewhere in the Beenleigh line.

* = Gold Coast trains ran express South Brisbane to Beenleigh in 1996. GC trains also didn't run to a clock face all day. Track speeds have also increased across the line between the two timetables due to improvments, signaling, station removal on curves, alignment, work on the Trinder Park curve etc.

Thank you for your historical knowledge HappyTrainGuy, I find it fascinating. Great to be better informed reading your numbers.

So 60mins for example was possible from Helensvale to Central, but has changed since.

Very speedy between South Brisbane to Beenleigh as you mentioned from 1996. I understand Airtrain's impact, but it again raises the contrast that these expresses stop at 4 stations out of Central, when northern line expresses stop at only 2.

Sorry if my comments look pedantic, but for the daily commuters, I'm sure they would see the calcuation of how much time is lost in extra travel over a year.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The northern line is alot faster than the Beenleigh line due to its better alignment and station spacing. Between Northgate-Caboolture there's about 3-4 major places where the train has to take a curve below 100kph with the slowest leg being Northgate-Bowen Hills. 60 minutes was acheived when both lines went to an hourly service resulting in the Gold Coast train having a clear path all the way from Bowen Hills IIRC. The Beenleigh trains have added an extra 4 minutes to make the trip 1h2min compared to 96 doing the run in 58 mins and 54 mins in 95 respectivley. Problem with todays Gold Coast trains is that some services can end up riding the yellows behind the Beenleigh all stopper. Without the extra stops every Gold Coast expess would be shadowing double yellows/yellows/reds for a good chunk of the trip.

[somebody]

Heading O/B, the Beenleigh train is 7 minutes behind the Gold Coast train.  If that were tightened up, the issue you are referring to wouldn't apply.  Also if the Beenleigh train had its timetable tightened it would remove that issue.

[Golliwog]

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1323054368
Minor changes to train services from 12 December

From Monday 12 December, there will be minor changes to some train services on the Rosewood, Ipswich, and Gympie North lines:

    5.05am Rosewood to Ipswich train will depart Rosewood station three minutes earlier at 5.02 am (arriving at Ipswich at 5.23am), to provide a better connection to the 5.28am Ipswich to City train
    5.56am Gympie North to Roma Street train will depart Fortitude Valley station five minutes earlier at 8.37am, to provide better connections at Central and Roma Street stations
    7.52am Petrie to Richlands train will depart Central station five minutes earlier at 8.38am, reducing the wait time at Central to three minutes.

New timetables will be available soon.

[somebody]

Are they going to add a services after the 8:38am Richlands service?  Otherwise, there will be a gap of >15 minutes heading to Milton and Toowong at a peak time.

[petey3801]

The Richlands service will now dwell at Roma Street for 5 minutes, departing at the same time as it currently does.

[O_128]

Cant wait for CanDos new timetable with 5 min dwells at both south bank and south brisbane 

[somebody]

The Richlands service will now dwell at Roma Street for 5 minutes, departing at the same time as it currently does.

Ok, but my point is true for Central station.

[BrizCommuter]

Cant wait for CanDos new timetable with 5 min dwells at both south bank and south brisbane 

...and 10 minute queues to get through Bowen Hills and Park Road junction.

[O_128]

Cant wait for CanDos new timetable with 5 min dwells at both south bank and south brisbane 

...and 10 minute queues to get through Bowen Hills and Park Road junction.

At least Ill be able to look at a world class flat junction =p

[Fares_Fair]

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1323054368
Minor changes to train services from 12 December

From Monday 12 December, there will be minor changes to some train services on the Rosewood, Ipswich, and Gympie North lines:

   5.05am Rosewood to Ipswich train will depart Rosewood station three minutes earlier at 5.02 am (arriving at Ipswich at 5.23am), to provide a better connection to the 5.28am Ipswich to City train
   5.56am Gympie North to Roma Street train will depart Fortitude Valley station five minutes earlier at 8.37am, to provide better connections at Central and Roma Street stations
   7.52am Petrie to Richlands train will depart Central station five minutes earlier at 8.38am, reducing the wait time at Central to three minutes.

New timetables will be available soon.

This is good news from Queensland Rail and TRANSLink.  
I wasn't aware of the current 8 minute time between BH to FV stations, when all the other services are 3 minutes.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.