Dwell times in new timetable

[HappyTrainGuy]

Question is.... Who wanted the slow down. Queensland Rail for the same timetable in peak/off peak/direction/realibility or Translink to improve bus/train connections across the whole network. Delay the train at Darra and meet the bus at Bray Park.

[somebody]

Question is.... Who wanted the slow down. Queensland Rail for the same timetable in peak/off peak/direction/realibility or Translink to improve bus/train connections across the whole network. Delay the train at Darra and meet the bus at Bray Park.

Either way it's the pollies that wanted to shut up a few whingers.

I cringe every time I hear someone complaining about unreliability.  I mean trains running 2 minutes late?  Get over it.

EDIT: Further, in the mid 90s, CityRail tried adding limited stop trains on the Northern Line, so that most stations got a 4/hour service albeit with a stagger.  Reliability went through the floor, I think mostly because of freight conflicts but there are also interurbans on the corridor..  The solution?  Remove the extra services and go back to 30 minute frequency.  I cringed about reliability whinging before this though.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep. And that's why translink gives the operator a massive fine.

[somebody]

Yep. And that's why translink gives the operator a massive fine.

Didn't ozbob get this stopped?

[colinw]

IMHO the slowing down of rail timetables directly follows from an excessive focus on meainingless on-time running statistics and fines for non-performance. Seems to be a disease that started in the UK after the break up of BR, and has now infected the East Coast of Australia.

This excessive focus on the stats mean we get the illusion of time keeping improving, when in reality ALL TRAINS now run late compared to what they used to be able to do. The occasional late running has just been built into the timetable and deemed acceptable in the name.

Lies, damned lies and statistics ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't think so, Simon. It applies to everyone that provides a service under translink.

If translink are going to fine everyone how about just making one day where its free PT instead of slugging the operators. If anything BT is very close to QRs on time realibility to start off with anyway and yet no mentions

[ozbob]

Yes, Queensland Rail is no longer fined as such.  With respect to bus OTP and reliability. TransLink stopped publishing the bus reliability because each time it was 100% and I challenged it (they were saying in effect never a no show).  Impossible, they have since removed it.

Bus OTP as reported in the TL Tracker, even with the huge lee ways is rubbish IMHO.

Perth does it well, there bus is around 85%  trains 95% which is around what it should be, and I guess is what bus is in Brisbane at best.

[somebody]

IMHO the slowing down of rail timetables directly follows from an excessive focus on meainingless on-time running statistics and fines for non-performance. Seems to be a disease that started in the UK after the break up of BR, and has now infected the East Coast of Australia.

This excessive focus on the stats mean we get the illusion of time keeping improving, when in reality ALL TRAINS now run late compared to what they used to be able to do. The occasional late running has just been built into the timetable and deemed acceptable in the name.

Lies, damned lies and statistics ...

Looked up the break up of BR, and it seems that the Act was only passed in 1993.  Cityrail were slow before this time.

[Fares_Fair]

IMHO the slowing down of rail timetables directly follows from an excessive focus on meainingless on-time running statistics and fines for non-performance. Seems to be a disease that started in the UK after the break up of BR, and has now infected the East Coast of Australia.

This excessive focus on the stats mean we get the illusion of time keeping improving, when in reality ALL TRAINS now run late compared to what they used to be able to do. The occasional late running has just been built into the timetable and deemed acceptable in the name.

Lies, damned lies and statistics ...

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes, Queensland Rail is no longer fined as such.  With respect to bus OTP and reliability. TransLink stopped publishing the bus reliability because each time it was 100% and I challenged it (they were saying in effect never a no show).  Impossible, they have since removed it.

Bus OTP as reported in the TL Tracker, even with the huge lee ways is rubbish IMHO.

Perth does it well, there bus is around 85%  trains 95% which is around what it should be, and I guess is what bus is in Brisbane at best.

Huh never knew that.

The on time running is availabe by request. I find it amusing that the sample is only 1.2% and yet it doesn't look favourable  - http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/right-to-information/TL1192-on-time-running-performance-of-buses.pdf

[Set in train]

Inbound EMU78, ex Ippy Darra arrival 11.05am, departed Darra 11.07am.  I joined at Darra.  Train lock down at Oxley whilst police and TOs did their ticket inspections.

How does that work?

[Set in train]

Like Brisbane used to be.  In the 1980s.  When Ipswich took 50 minutes and the Caboolture line was the fastest all stations run in the country.

Yes, why can't we return to that? Isn't life supposed to improve over time rather than go backwards?

[ozbob]

Inbound EMU78, ex Ippy Darra arrival 11.05am, departed Darra 11.07am.  I joined at Darra.  Train lock down at Oxley whilst police and TOs did their ticket inspections.

How does that work?

A team effort TOs (sometimes SNOs) and Police check the entire train while the train is stopped at the station.  There is no opportunity for people to get off etc. before they are checked for tickets.  It takes a few minutes but sends a clear message.  As I understand it people on the train without ticketing are taken off the train to the platform for process as appropriate.  Train then proceeds as normal once check complete.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Usually by stopping the train at the platform where TOs then board and do a quick sweep checking for tickets. Rather then them issueing the ticket anyone without a valid ticket gets chucked off the train straight away and then delt with the TOs on the platform. The railway squad is there for backup incase there are problems with passengers disagreeing as has been in the past. Whilst transit officers have the power to request your information/get people to detrain that aren't on a valid ticket the Railway Squad has greater powers to the extent where they can kick off students for truancy/arrest/detain/add extra offences and beat you with a stick if you deserve it as they are a branch under the Queensland Police Service rather than a branch of Queensland Rail/Translink (The Railway Squad can't issue fare evasion fines as that's not their job). Once the TO's have checked the train they signal to the guard that their job onboard the service is complete and the guard now has the right of way to do their final check and alert the driver that their clear to continue the service. Usually takes a couple minutes to about 5 minutes depending on the load and how passengers respond ie slow to get their cards out/trying to find that golden ticket that they bought and put somewhere.

Door safety systems were introduced to EMUs in 94-96 along with SMUs and eventually the plug doors on the IMUs/SMU260s. When they were first rolled out as soon as the guard blew their whistle and instantly after the ding ding sound that can be heard was made the doors slammed shut. Now there's the 5 second delay. When the ding ding sound was made to alert the driver to close the doors instead of the doors closing instantly there's now the "Please stand clear. Doors are closing" then they close.

[somebody]

Door safety systems were introduced to EMUs in 94-96 along with SMUs and eventually the plug doors on the IMUs/SMU260s. When they were first rolled out as soon as the guard blew their whistle and instantly after the ding ding sound that can be heard was made the doors slammed shut. Now there's the 5 second delay. When the ding ding sound was made to alert the driver to close the doors instead of the doors closing instantly there's now the "Please stand clear. Doors are closing" then they close.

There's 22 stations on the Ipswich line.  That's almost 2 minutes added to the trip.  Note that the timetable now has 8 minutes added to it since 1995, while the previous timetable added 3 minutes O/B and 5-6 minutes I/B.  So more than half the slow down O/B has occurred in the last timetable.

Where the 1995 timetables you showed us the same journey times in the O/B direction?

[HappyTrainGuy]

One could say that train and bus intergration might have also played a part for the most recent change.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3045/citytoipswich.jpg

[Set in train]

Inbound EMU78, ex Ippy Darra arrival 11.05am, departed Darra 11.07am.  I joined at Darra.  Train lock down at Oxley whilst police and TOs did their ticket inspections.

How does that work?

A team effort TOs (sometimes SNOs) and Police check the entire train while the train is stopped at the station.  There is no opportunity for people to get off etc. before they are checked for tickets.  It takes a few minutes but sends a clear message.  As I understand it people on the train without ticketing are taken off the train to the platform for process as appropriate.  Train then proceeds as normal once check complete.

Strange time to do it? Less on the train?

[Set in train]

Door safety systems were introduced to EMUs in 94-96 along with SMUs and eventually the plug doors on the IMUs/SMU260s. When they were first rolled out as soon as the guard blew their whistle and instantly after the ding ding sound that can be heard was made the doors slammed shut. Now there's the 5 second delay. When the ding ding sound was made to alert the driver to close the doors instead of the doors closing instantly there's now the "Please stand clear. Doors are closing" then they close.

This is a fascinating thread, so many interesting things going on. Surely this 5 sec delay can't account for the many minutes that timetables have been slowed?

PS. anyone have a link to the Youtube video of the Caboolture electric line opening that was given on this site? It was a 9 News report.

[Golliwog]

Inbound EMU78, ex Ippy Darra arrival 11.05am, departed Darra 11.07am.  I joined at Darra.  Train lock down at Oxley whilst police and TOs did their ticket inspections.

How does that work?

A team effort TOs (sometimes SNOs) and Police check the entire train while the train is stopped at the station.  There is no opportunity for people to get off etc. before they are checked for tickets.  It takes a few minutes but sends a clear message.  As I understand it people on the train without ticketing are taken off the train to the platform for process as appropriate.  Train then proceeds as normal once check complete.

Strange time to do it? Less on the train?

I think it kind of aims to be like an RBT on the train network. Anywhere, anytime. I don't think you'd be able to do it during peak given the higher frequency services run at and the high number of passengers. Even a minute or two of delay could have large ramifications. I posted on here that they had one at Mitchelton the other night after the PM peak when I was heading home. The rail squad also went through the train with a drug sniffer dog.

[Cam]

The 1995 Ipswich Line timetable posted above by HTG shows a scheduled travel time for all stations services from Central to Ipswich of 49 minutes which is 1 minute less than the current express services that skip 8 stations. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

This is a fascinating thread, so many interesting things going on. Surely this 5 sec delay can't account for the many minutes that timetables have been slowed?

Not entirly (I don't really care about the door closing systems) but it's a small part of many other contributing factors. Other factors include the Disability Act. Passengers with disabilities/imparments boarding ie wheelchairs, prams, luggage, injured people and the elderley. Rollingstock types ie performance capability/associated weights/types of doors. EMUs are louder onboard but SMUs are quieter onboard because of plug doors. Now trains have to meet bus connections and buses have to meet train connections as its a service for Translink rather than a service for QR. But the major factor is the increased passenger volume associating in the longer dwell time at stations.

[somebody]

Can't say that I notice the difference in how loud/quiet the EMUs are compared to the SMU260s.  Trains have to meet bus connections?  Surely it's the other way around!

I think removing 8 stations from the stopping pattern in peak should more than compensate for the increased patronage.  How empty were the train carriages back in 1995 anyway?  There were less trains as well, and it really only matters how long people take to get in/out the slowest door.

[colinw]

With EMUs it depends which car you get in.  The trailer cars (which start with a 3, e.g. EM 301) are a lot quieter & smoother riding.

Out of interest, what are the acceleration & braking rates for the SMU 260s?  EMU is (I believe) 0.775 m/s/s acceleration, 1.1 m/s/s deceleration.  IMU 100 is 0.68 m/s/s accel & 1.1 ms/s/ decel, so a bit slower off the mark than an EMU.

I haven't seen the rates for the SMUs quoted anywhere, but expect they would be similar to the EMU.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Simon its a bit of both depending on the direction of travel.

There's always one cariage on every 3 car set that is generally the smoothest and the most quiet due to the weight which can vary from a few tons to 20+t depending on the rollingstock generation. On EMUs the DT cars (EM301) are about 36t each while the DM (EM101 - The DM on EMU60-79 are about 2 brand new holden commodores lighter due to their configuration) and M (EM201) cars are both about 42t each (Compare that to the EMD on the ICE which is 50+t with the EMT being 33t). All weights don't include passengers.

EMU01-59 80-88 are 0.775m/s² with 8x 135kw traction motors
SMU200/220 were roughly 0.8m/s² with 8x 180kw traction motors
IMU100 are in the 0.6m/s² range with 8x 180kw traction motors
The SMU200 HS series have the same acceleration rate and they can go a bit faster in the top end. Only problem was that after the mods they found that those units were highly prone to extreme wheel wear and vibrations.

edit: removed outdated IMU160/SMU260 stats.

[ozbob]

Thanks HTG, interesting info.

[petey3801]

IMU160/SMU260s are actually around the 0.82-0.83m/s², other than that, the other ones look about correct (200s are slightly slower pickup than 220s).

[ozbob]

 

[HappyTrainGuy]

I could swear I heard them running 0.68-0.70 around the time with their gearbox problems. But then again that was a few years ago.

[petey3801]

I could swear I heard them running 0.68-0.70 around the time with their gearbox problems. But then again that was a few years ago.

May have been lowered for a while till the problems were sorted out maybe? I know they now certainly have the fastest acceleration of the fleet!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Its possible that may have been the case.

[Arnz]

This is a fascinating thread, so many interesting things going on. Surely this 5 sec delay can't account for the many minutes that timetables have been slowed?

PS. anyone have a link to the Youtube video of the Caboolture electric line opening that was given on this site? It was a 9 News report.

.  

It was 42 mins originally to Brisbane Central.  It is now 62 minutes under the July 2011 timetable.  

Interestingly enough, it's 44 mins on the Gympie North express in both directions (express Bowen Hills to Caboolture) on most services, with the exception of the Mon-Fri morning inbound ex-Gympie (48 minutes).  

There was also a old catalogue somewhere in the archives on the InterCity Express (ICE) somewhere advertising a "1hr:35min" travel time between Nambour and Brisbane (express Caboolture to Bowen Hills stopping Petrie and Northgate) back in 1988.  This has since blown out to 1hr:51.

[#Metro]

That is a lot of fat.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Weren't parts of the Caboolture-Petrie run used to be 120kph running for ICE sets.

[Arnz]

Weren't parts of the Caboolture-Petrie run used to be 120kph running for ICE sets.

Yup, between Narangba and Burpengary.  Speed lowered to 100km/h around 2004 or 2005ish iirc.

[Fares_Fair]

This is a fascinating thread, so many interesting things going on. Surely this 5 sec delay can't account for the many minutes that timetables have been slowed?

PS. anyone have a link to the Youtube video of the Caboolture electric line opening that was given on this site? It was a 9 News report.

.  

It was 42 mins originally to Brisbane Central.  It is now 62 minutes under the July 2011 timetable.  

Interestingly enough, it's 44 mins on the Gympie North express in both directions (express Bowen Hills to Caboolture) on most services, with the exception of the Mon-Fri morning inbound ex-Gympie (48 minutes).  

There was also a old catalogue somewhere in the archives on the InterCity Express (ICE) somewhere advertising a "1hr:35min" travel time between Nambour and Brisbane (express Caboolture to Bowen Hills stopping Petrie and Northgate) back in 1988.  This has since blown out to 1hr:51.

That is absolutely remarkable, from 42 minutes to 62 minutes in the space of 25 years.
Travel times increased by 50%.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

They didn't say 42 minutes stopping all stations though.  I find that unlikely.

[Arnz]

They didn't say 42 minutes stopping all stations though.  I find that unlikely.

There wasn't any express services back in 1986.  It was either the Caboolture-Petrie shuttle in off-peak, or the all-stops peak direct service to Caboolture back when it opened.

42 mins to 62 mins in 25 years.  What a big waste of fat!  

[#Metro]

Maybe someone can do a media release or a graph or ask PTAG for a graph of times over the years and how the speeds have slown slown slown.

[#Metro]

Can we have the old timetables centralised somewhere on the forum. It would be good to get a graph of each line and times over at least 3 time points. Say '80s, mid 90's and 00's and today if possible.

We can them make a graph.

[BrizCommuter]

Can we have the old timetables centralised somewhere on the forum. It would be good to get a graph of each line and times over at least 3 time points. Say '80s, mid 90's and 00's and today if possible.

We can them make a graph.

Certainly, maybe a thread with scans of old timetables would be useful.

Here is BrizCommuter's word on the slowdown.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/11/queensland-rail-now-18-slower.html