Dwell times in new timetable

[Cam]

Is anyone else frustrated at the unnecessarily long dwell times at some stations in the new Ipswich & Caboolture Line timetables? I usually catch Ipswich Line services so can't comment on the Richlands or Caboolture services.

I'm finding that unless the service that I'm travelling on is running late, the dwell times are unnecessarily long at the following stations:

1) Darra: typically about 90 seconds inbound & 60-90 seconds outbound (express services only)

2) Indooroopilly: typically 90 seconds inbound. The services from Ipswich I catch in the morning typically pass the service from Richalnds at Chelmer which then catches up at Indooroopilly & departs a minute earlier.

3) Gailes: Can be up to 60 seconds both inbound & outbound unless the service departs early - like it did this morning. At Gailes in the afternoon, I've seen the guard board the train after all passengers have alighted & then about 30 seconds later he has alighted the train again to have another look before again boarding the train. Why timetable a minute's dwell time in both directions at such a quiet station?

[ozbob]

Yes, noticed myself, usually a short wait at Darra  They are I assume 'reliability times'.   It does allow some variation if there are DDA requirements enroute for example without impacting on the narrow windows through the CBD at peaks particularly.  As dwell times increase the times will still be reliable.   The old timetable the trains invariably were running late at least 2 or 3 minutes.

[Luke]

There is far too much unnecessary padding in the new timetables which might be one of the reasons for this.  I have noticed off-peak Caboolture trains seem to be consistently around 5 minutes early. 

[Fares_Fair]

There is 2 minutes extra added under the latest timetable between Palmwoods and Landsborough.
Old (pre June 6) timetable allowed 17 minutes, the new allows 19 minutes.
As a result we arrive at landsborough station 2 minutes early every day 

However, having said that, overall we are arriving at Central Station a minimum 2 minutes (or more) late virtually every day.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Yes, noticed myself, usually a short wait at Darra  They are I assume 'reliability times'.   It does allow some variation if there are DDA requirements enroute for example without impacting on the narrow windows through the CBD at peaks particularly.  As dwell times increase the times will still be reliable.   The old timetable the trains invariably were running late at least 2 or 3 minutes.

I don't think this is acceptable.  We are going the way of CityRail (not that bad yet) which also has too slow a timetable.  If there is a wheelchair or three, I'd rather have those trains delayed rather than the current system which is every train is delayed.

The good thing about the new peak timetable is the Ipswich trains stop at less stations on the average so the dwell times increasing cannot cause as much of a problem.

My 2 cents.

[petey3801]

In regards to Ipswich:

I find the timetable is a good peak timetable, with only the wait at Indooroopilly a major issue (could be cut down by a minute). Darra isn't too bad, but could use 30-odd secs shaved from the time. Other than that, I have found the peak timetable (in the morning at least) to be fantastic, with no real major waits apart from the two mentioned above (i've only driven Ippy morning peak services a couple times, but that's all that i've found).
Can't say i've had a problem at Gailes though. We may have been slightly late when i've come through there.

Off-peak however, the timetable is very slow. Could very easily have a few minutes shaved off. The old timetable was a bit too tight for reliable running, but this one has gone too far the other side in off-peak. A nice middle-ground timetable would be good, which would allow faster services but also keep reliability fairly easily (unless you get 15 wheelchairs like one poor guard I heard at South Bank...)

[Cam]

Dwell times on the 6.45am ex Ipswich this morning:

1) About 30 seconds at Gailes before leaving about 30 seconds before it was timetabled to.

2) About 1 minute 45 seconds at Darra. 

3) About 2 minutes at Indooroopilly. The guard announced that there would be a delay of a minute due to the timetable.

[david]

I think that one minute could easily be shaved off the expresses between Darra and Indooroopilly, but added on to the trip between Indooroopilly and Milton, as I frequently find the trains arriving at least one minute late into Milton, Roma St and Central. Although, I suspect this is because of the speed restriction on the mains just before Taringa.

[Arnz]

Speaking of dwell times, QR City network trains #UL15 and #TL17 (3:30pm and 4:00pm ex-Roma Street to Nambour) usually arrives at Beerwah 2 minutes early almost every day now.  Usually ending up with a 90 sec dwell at Beerwah.

[ClintonL94]

Speaking of dwell times, QR City network trains #UL15 and #TL17 (3:30pm and 4:00pm ex-Roma Street to Nambour) usually arrives at Beerwah 2 minutes early almost every day now.  Usually ending up with a 90 sec dwell at Beerwah.

What if they were EMUs? They wouldn't be dwelling then. Speaking of which from what you know how many EMUs are doing Nambour runs in peak?

[Arnz]

Speaking of dwell times, QR City network trains #UL15 and #TL17 (3:30pm and 4:00pm ex-Roma Street to Nambour) usually arrives at Beerwah 2 minutes early almost every day now.  Usually ending up with a 90 sec dwell at Beerwah.

What if they were EMUs? They wouldn't be dwelling then. Speaking of which from what you know how many EMUs are doing Nambour runs in peak?

Usually 0 in the afternoon peak.  The peak timetables are "scheduled" to be IMUs, though SMU260s do regularly make appearances.  The IMU fleet is already stretched due to a few IMUs being out of service (refurbs or maintenance). I've seen the odd 6-car EMUs on the Gold Coast Line again as of recent, pretty much giving the sign of IMU shortages.

A 6-car EMU can usually be found working both the 8:30am and 1:00pm services from Roma Street to Nambour anywhere between once to three times a week.  This train is formed from Richlands in the morning, and ends up in Ipswich (2:43pm Nambour to Ipswich service).  Every time a EMU runs up, it's usually up to 5-8 minutes late coming up and going back.  

It might be something to do with the most services on the Timetable being based on the 130km/h-140km/h running of the SMU260s/IMUs on the Caboolture-Beerburrum and Glasshouse-Landsborough sections.  EMUs generally struggle to go over 100km/h, whereas a older SMU2 may be going over 104-108km/h on the Beerburrum stretch (well over the SMU2 designed service speed) with no problems.

Fortunately there's a 25 min turn around time at Roma Street between services, and FAT on the 2:43pm Nambour to Ipswich service at Central and Indooroopilly.  Probably enough time for the EMU to catch up once in the City.

[ozbob]

Similar concerns with Metro in Melbourne --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4072.msg65177#msg65177

[somebody]

At least in Melbourne it was caused (largely) by a defect in the trains.  Sydney and Brisbane do not have that excuse.

[somebody]

8:19am I/B train @ Indro arrived at approximately 8:16am this morning, so had to wait for the timetable to catch up.  It is noticeably slow the whole way in to Roma St.  I also think that the trains which use Milton #4 could do the Roma St-Milton bit in 2 minutes rather than 3 minutes as they don't need to traverse the diverging leg of points, which are poorly located being away from a station.

[Cam]

8:19am I/B train @ Indro arrived at approximately 8:16am this morning, so had to wait for the timetable to catch up.  It is noticeably slow the whole way in to Roma St. 

Simon, I guess you saw the all stations service from Richlands arrive more than a minute after the express & then depart a minute before the express.

Similar delay as usual on the 7.07am inbound @ Indro this morning. It usually passes the all stations service from Richlands at Chelmer & arrives at 7.05am. The all stations service from Richlands then stops at Indro & departs at 7.06am - 1 minute before the express service is due to depart.

The 90+ second delay inbound at Darra is not so noticeable because you don't see an all stations service pull up while the express is waiting & then depart a minute before the express. However, the excessive delay is still there.

[petey3801]

It is noticeably slow the whole way in to Roma St.  I also think that the trains which use Milton #4 could do the Roma St-Milton bit in 2 minutes rather than 3 minutes as they don't need to traverse the diverging leg of points, which are poorly located being away from a station.

The main line is 60km/h while the points are 50km/h from Sub to Main. It doesn't really make much difference. It is the track closer to Roma Street (40 and 25km/h) that is the issue. The extra minute is also there for large numbers of passengers joining/alighting at Roma Street.

[somebody]

I think you're right.

[david]

The 90+ second delay inbound at Darra is not so noticeable because you don't see an all stations service pull up while the express is waiting & then depart a minute before the express. However, the excessive delay is still there.

I think it's also because it actually takes a minute for people to alight + people to board. Since Darra is an interchange station, its so busy these days that there are significant numbers of people changing trains from the express to the all-stations, as well as the high numbers of people boarding at Darra normally.

[Cam]

The 90+ second delay inbound at Darra is not so noticeable because you don't see an all stations service pull up while the express is waiting & then depart a minute before the express. However, the excessive delay is still there.

I think it's also because it actually takes a minute for people to alight + people to board. Since Darra is an interchange station, its so busy these days that there are significant numbers of people changing trains from the express to the all-stations, as well as the high numbers of people boarding at Darra normally.

The only people boarding the train more than 30 seconds after its arrival are those who have arrived after its arrival. It's not Central Station at 5pm. 30 seconds is plenty of time at both Darra & Indooroopilly.

[Cam]

The 6.27am from Ipswich left Indooroopilly about 1 minute & 40 seconds before the scheduled departure time of 7.07 this morning. I guess the driver forgot about the fat in the timetable.

[STB]

The 6.27am from Ipswich left Indooroopilly about 1 minute & 40 seconds before the scheduled departure time of 7.07 this morning. I guess the driver forgot about the fat in the timetable.

You mean the guard who gives right of way .

[Cam]

I think that part of the reason for the additional dwell time being added to the timetable is too accommodate the additional time required to pack passengers into a 3 car service in the middle of the peak period. It took over 1 minute for passengers to board the 6.57am ex Ipswich at Darra this morning because it was a 3 car service. Passengers have no problem boarding 6 car services during peak periods at Darra.

It should be a priority to replace all 3 car services with 6 car services in peak times so that dwell times in the timetable can be reduced.

[somebody]

A 3 car on the Ipswich line!  How could this be allowed to happen?  Mightn't be so bad for Richlands, I guess.

[Gazza]

I saw it about 25 past 7 at Oxley....I was on the other side cos I was topping up and it was only 6 mins till the next train anyway (TUAG <3 <3<3 ).... But it's a daily occurence..... I think the issue is approx 1/3 of pax will be arriving on the platform after the 2 min warning (At the 6 min headway) so people stand along the whole length.
So yeah the guard has to wait for people to make it down and squash in.

[somebody]

I think this just shows that too much rolling stock was used up by the new timetable.

[Golliwog]

I saw it about 25 past 7 at Oxley....I was on the other side cos I was topping up and it was only 6 mins till the next train anyway (TUAG <3 <3<3 ).... But it's a daily occurence..... I think the issue is approx 1/3 of pax will be arriving on the platform after the 2 min warning (At the 6 min headway) so people stand along the whole length.
So yeah the guard has to wait for people to make it down and squash in.

Hah, tell that to the guard on the 6.15am service from FG this morning. Despite it being a 3 car service, they stop it at the City end of the platforms, meaning everyone has to walk down from the only entrance to the platforms (which is funnily enough where most people wait as well). He then blew the whistle and left 1 minute early this morning, despite me running down the platform to try and make it. He was looking right at me when I was 5m from the rear of the train when the doors closed. IIRC, it was IMU104.

[Arnz]

The 6.27am from Ipswich left Indooroopilly about 1 minute & 40 seconds before the scheduled departure time of 7.07 this morning. I guess the driver forgot about the fat in the timetable.

Had a similar situation happen this afternoon at Beerwah.  We were operating 2 minutes ahead of schedule already and left Beerwah just over a minute early at 5:17pm before the departure time of 5:18pm.  

In most cases, the IMUs runs it can operate ahead of schedule (assuming signals are working), yet when a EMU is substituted for the IMU on any service it's usually 5-8 mins late everytime.  Fortunately the long train turn-around times at Nambour can get the EMU back on schedule (but at the cost of a shorter break).  However, they are a few minutes late (usually 3-4 mins) when they get to Caboolture due to the high speed running south of Landsborough.

I would assume the late running would be similar for the GC lines when the EMU substitutes down there.  What are their turnback times at VSY, is it 33 mins?

I've noticed the VSY arrival time is 15 past the hour and the northbound service leaves at 18 past the hour.  I doubt the turnback time is 3 minutes.

[somebody]

when a EMU is substituted for the IMU on any service it's usually 5-8 mins late everytime.  Fortunately the long train turn-around times at Nambour can get the EMU back on schedule (but at the cost of a shorter break).  However, they are a few minutes late (usually 3-4 mins) when they get to Caboolture due to the high speed running south of Landsborough.

Just not acceptable to have EMUs on the Nambour run with any frequency.  The timetable should not consider this possibility.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep, when EMU's are run south of Beenleigh they just hemorrhage time like you wouldn't beleive. Turn around times at Robina used to be ~20 mins but since the extension to Varsity Lakes the terminating train arrives as the Airport train is prepping to leave.

[Cam]

I was on the service that departed Ipswich at 6.27am this morning which arrived at Indooroopilly, as usual ,about 2 minutes before the scheduled departure time. The guard announced to the effect of "there will be a delay...due to the guard being efficient...we have arrived ahead of schedule". I think the guard used the term "guard". He may have said "staff" but you get the idea.

The announcements at Indooroopilly about there being a delay because the service has arrived early are becoming more frequent.

[somebody]

I was on the service that departed Ipswich at 6.27am this morning which arrived at Indooroopilly, as usual ,about 2 minutes before the scheduled departure time. The guard announced to the effect of "there will be a delay...due to the guard being efficient...we have arrived ahead of schedule". I think the guard used the term "guard". He may have said "staff" but you get the idea.

The announcements at Indooroopilly about there being a delay because the service has arrived early are becoming more frequent.

I wish RAILBoT would put as much effort into changing this as RAILBoT did into changing the fare structure.

I have never seen a train arrive on Indooroopilly platform 4 in the AM peak that hasn't been early since the new timetable.

[Set in train]

I wish RAILBoT would put as much effort into changing this as RAILBoT did into changing the fare structure.

I have never seen a train arrive on Indooroopilly platform 4 in the AM peak that hasn't been early since the new timetable.

Shouldn't Scott Emmerson be haunting around the station doing mobile booths in the lead up to the election, perhaps he needs to be collared about this by commuters on their way to the station?

As for dwell times, there is a You Tube link on this forum somewhere about the opening of the electric railway to Caboolture, that shows you how much dwell times have been added to since opening.

[Cam]

The 6.27am ex Ipswich was 100-200m from Wacol at exactly 6.50am - the departure time from Gailes. I estimate that it would have departed Gailes approx 80 to 90 seconds early. After leaving Darra on time, the same service arrived at Indooroopilly 2 minutes & 15 seconds before the scheduled departure time. It then departed Indooroopilly approx 45 seconds early.

Perhaps some guards are becoming frustrated with the unnecessary dwell time in the new timetable & departing early.

[ozbob]

Almost seems the padding is a national rail conspiracy ...

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[somebody]

Time to take a stand against it.  SIT makes a good point.  I'm not sure that Scott Emerson has spoken on the slow down.

Compared to the April 2010 timetable, 1 minute has been added between East Ipswich/Booval, Riverview/Redbank on selected trips, Redbank/Goodna, Wacol/Darra.  Similarly the 10 minutes Darra-Indooroopilly is slacker IMO than the 11-12 minutes which applied for trips which served Corinda and Oxley.

Trimming two minutes off the timetable would still leave a slack timetable IMO.

[ozbob]

It has been raised a number of times already.  I would like to compile a list of examples and then give it a further belt.  Melbourne commuters are starting to raise their eyebrows as well. (see here).  Stage 2 timetable consultations will also be a good time to highlight the issue ...

How padded is Sydney?  Perth?

[ozbob]

Inbound EMU78, ex Ippy Darra arrival 11.05am, departed Darra 11.07am.  I joined at Darra.  Train lock down at Oxley whilst police and TOs did their ticket inspections. Rest of timings out.  Is now on time at Milton (11.30am), which again confirms fair bit of slack. Probably at Oxley for 5 minutes.

[somebody]

It has been raised a number of times already.  I would like to compile a list of examples and then give it a further belt.  Melbourne commuters are starting to raise their eyebrows as well. (see here).  Stage 2 timetable consultations will also be a good time to highlight the issue ...

How padded is Sydney?  Perth?

Sydney is the worst in the world!  Why are we considering the flight to the bottom?

Even before the "slow timetable" in 2005, CityRail had slow trains down pat.  Drivers drove trains, mostly express trains, slow between timetables very obviously to run on time.  All stations trains were driven faster. 

For the love of God, let that culture not be entrenched here.

[somebody]

Perth is (not having used it), by reputation AND timetable very fast, best in Australia.

[colinw]

Like Brisbane used to be.  In the 1980s.  When Ipswich took 50 minutes and the Caboolture line was the fastest all stations run in the country.