Article: Can't stand rude commuters

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Can't stand rude commuters

Can't stand rude commuters
Amelia Bentley
July 21, 2011 - 3:01AM

Spending more than two hours a day between work and home can be enough to get anyone's goat, but try standing for much of that time while being six months pregnant.

It doesn't happen every day, I'll be honest.

But if I get on a peak-time Gold Coast-bound train at Roma Street after it's already filled up with commuters at Central, even standing room is hard to come by. And it's not like people in those priority seats are offering up their spots to me.
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In the earlier days of pregnancy I thought, 'well, maybe people just think I'm fat' and so I didn't request a seat from unsuspecting commuters.

But now it's got to the point where it's obvious I'm growing a person in there.

And until I say something, no one does the courteous thing and gives up their seat.

Surprisingly, female commuters seem to be the worst offenders.

They seem to love sitting in the priority seating but are often too busy looking at their phones or typing on their laptops to notice me. They're too distracted by their novels or by talking loudly in the quiet carriage (that's a whole different rant for another day) to notice the people standing who might require a seat.

At least most men, when I say "excuse me?", are apologetic and don't huff and puff about having to stand up (like one young female student recently did).

On the odd occasion when there are no seats available and I choose to stand, still no one offers.

A friend of mine was recently eight months' pregnant and travelled on a peak-hour train from South Bank to Beenleigh (45 minutes) with no one offering her a seat.

Perhaps it's because I'm on the packed Gold Coast line where a seat is as prized as beachfront real estate.

Other train lines might not be so cut-throat.

Maybe it's easier to be polite when you're only committing yourself to 20 minutes of handrail action say from the City to Indooroopilly.

But I think some of my fellow commuters need to take note, if you sit in the priority seating on the train each time you stop at a station and people get on, you need to take a look around you and check that no one needs your seat more than you do.

Just in the case the big sign above you wasn't obvious enough.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cant-stand-rude-commuters-20110720-1honz.html

[SurfRail]

I'm actually finding this tends to be much less of a problem these days (including on the Gold Coast line).  Main offenders do seem to be students.

[Fares_Fair]

QR just do not enforce the "students to stand for full fare paying passengers" any more.
They should !

Having said that, it's sad that society has come to this where they need to be told to make way for the less fortunate or pregnant or elderly.

Still, every now and then you get a youngster who defies the trend and offers up some good old chivalry to someone who needs it.
Sadly, it's the exception and not the rule.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[HappyTrainGuy]

After I made the mistake of thinking someone was preggers just after they got on when they actually weren't (Its a good thing I was getting off a couple stops later. She wasn't a happy commuter after that haha) I usually wait to be asked if I could move or until I see someone that's obviously preggers if I'm ever sitting in the side door seats. Or any seat for that matter.

But like surfrail said, its mostly students that don't bother asking as they assume someone else would offer up their seat before them.

[O_128]

The author is right, I always notice men offering a seat even if the lady isn't pregnant, Where as woman think they have some god given right that they should get the seat, It gets even worse with the overweight ones who I have zero respect for.

[SurfRail]

QR just do not enforce the "students to stand for full fare paying passengers" any more.
They should !

The reason being that it is not actually a condition of travel - just what is considered polite.

It could be made so again without much of a problem, and I think community sentiment is probably in favour of that.

[Golliwog]

I'm not a big fan of changing back to forcing students to stand. Is there any justification other than students are paying less? I'm a student and I'll stand if theres someone who needs a seat (pregnant, elderly, disabled, etc) but don't accept the line that "You pay less so don't deserve a seat." We pay less because we're going to uni to further our education to be doctors/engineers/scientists and whatever else, not so the office worker has someone to force out of a seat.

[O_128]

I'm not a big fan of changing back to forcing students to stand. Is there any justification other than students are paying less? I'm a student and I'll stand if theres someone who needs a seat (pregnant, elderly, disabled, etc) but don't accept the line that "You pay less so don't deserve a seat." We pay less because we're going to uni to further our education to be doctors/engineers/scientists and whatever else, not so the office worker has someone to force out of a seat.

Totally agree, but its easier now I dont have to wear a uniform, I will always stand for a pregnant woman or an elderly person its the condescending people I see getting on at buranda and getting a power kick out of telling kids to stand up who have been on the train since manly, Standing up for 15 mins wont kill you will it?

[dwb]

I'm not a big fan of changing back to forcing students to stand. Is there any justification other than students are paying less? I'm a student and I'll stand if theres someone who needs a seat (pregnant, elderly, disabled, etc) but don't accept the line that "You pay less so don't deserve a seat." We pay less because we're going to uni to further our education to be doctors/engineers/scientists and whatever else, not so the office worker has someone to force out of a seat.

Totally agree, but its easier now I dont have to wear a uniform, I will always stand for a pregnant woman or an elderly person its the condescending people I see getting on at buranda and getting a power kick out of telling kids to stand up who have been on the train since manly, Standing up for 15 mins wont kill you will it?

I generally agree.

Interestingly in Rio on the metro (which is VERY full at many times of the day - so much so that people travel in the wrong direction to the end of the line to guarantee they'll have a seat on a returning train), they have seats marked as priority seats by a sticker on the window and a different colour on the seat. It is very obvious which are priority seats (for elderly, pregnant, incapacitated and actually obese). When the train fills every normal passenger avoids these seats and then even once the normal seats are all full, average passengers will often stand and leave the priority seat empty as they know that in a couple of stops people will board who will need the priority seat. Once the train is full people are still very polite with regards to priority seats and many people offer their seat without being asked. Something which seems quite strange given the manner in which locals sometimes interact with strangers. Interestingly I never saw those people who would "qualify" for a seat ask for a seat and I even had several little old ladies tell me I could keep the seat (priority or normal) - of course I still stood up.

One day during Carnival there was a young Aussie tourist sitting in a priority seat and a very frail lady standing just in front of her, I waited for about a station before asking her in English to stand up for the elderly woman in (just for the record I'd been standing the whole way) and she retorted in a sometimes too typical self entitled Australian way, before reluctantly standing.

I don't get trains that often, but perhaps they could allocate more obviously which seats are priority seating (and/or allocate more). I'm talking more than a sticker on the window, for instance completely different colour seat material. I think This makes it obvious the order in which people should be standing. I think often people here look around them and they see other people who they think are just as capable of standing, who they think may not be travelling as far as them, who boarded after them and think they should be offering before they do. And to be honest in many cases I think this is valid. Further, like Rio, I think we should probably focus more on capacity to stand than simply status, I don't really think students should have to stand for a young business man who is entirely capable of standing and I certainly don't advocate for the standing just because she's female expectation that some women have - I live my life as to values of equality - if she's paid the same fare as me, and is as capable as me she can stand as much as I can and hence I let the queue rule, if I've boarded the bus first because I've been waiting 40mins and she's just rocked up, I'll board and seat myself first.

[Fares_Fair]

I'm not a big fan of changing back to forcing students to stand. Is there any justification other than students are paying less? I'm a student and I'll stand if theres someone who needs a seat (pregnant, elderly, disabled, etc) but don't accept the line that "You pay less so don't deserve a seat." We pay less because we're going to uni to further our education to be doctors/engineers/scientists and whatever else, not so the office worker has someone to force out of a seat.

IMHO, the fact that students are for the most part younger and are paying significantly less is why they should.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[dwb]

I'm not a big fan of changing back to forcing students to stand. Is there any justification other than students are paying less? I'm a student and I'll stand if theres someone who needs a seat (pregnant, elderly, disabled, etc) but don't accept the line that "You pay less so don't deserve a seat." We pay less because we're going to uni to further our education to be doctors/engineers/scientists and whatever else, not so the office worker has someone to force out of a seat.

IMHO, the fact that students are for the most part younger and are paying significantly less is why they should.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Sorry when I was a student (and given that I'm still younger than you, now) there's no way you get my seat simply bc you are an older grumpy man with a strong sense of self entitlement, you might think this makes me rude, I think it makes you rude.

[Fares_Fair]

Your response is classic - you assume I wanted the seat.
I believe that women and the elderly deserve it more than you or I !

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Gazza]

The reason being that it is not actually a condition of travel - just what is considered polite.

Yes it is. In the group of pictographic signs at the end of each carriage its on there. Its also on that maroon coloured lettering by each door (Black letter in EMUs)
Yes, I have a photographic memory 

[SurfRail]

The reason being that it is not actually a condition of travel - just what is considered polite.

Yes it is. In the group of pictographic signs at the end of each carriage its on there. Its also on that maroon coloured lettering by each door (Black letter in EMUs)
Yes, I have a photographic memory 

QR does not set the conditions of travel.  They can have whatever they want inside their carriages - there are any number of notices inside all vehicles on the network (which is another area in which Perth is superior - common interior branding and signage), which are often inconsistent. 

If you are a student, no matter what type, there is no blackletter legal requirement for you to stand, and no basis for being fined or ejected, as some people seem to think is the case. 

[p858snake]

As for not being able to enforce the no students sitting whilst adults students (apart from when there is a good reason), since it's private property (Yes, although QR is government owned but it's not a public space) they should be able to, I wouldn't think that its not all that much different than a business enforcing a dress code.

As to enforcement of it can't they just give them a move on "order" which basically means the have to leave or they are effectively trespassing? (as long as they didn't violate disability or discrimination laws It should be fine)

[Golliwog]

Your response is classic - you assume I wanted the seat.
I believe that women and the elderly deserve it more than you or I !

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Hell, I'm more than willing to give up my seat for someone who needs it. But I won't give up my seat so some office worker (male or female) just because they're not a student. If theres some reason you need a seat (old, disability, broken leg, etc) then sure, by all means I'll give up my seat. But if its purely because I'm a student and you're not then too bad.

[SurfRail]

As for not being able to enforce the no students sitting whilst adults students (apart from when there is a good reason), since it's private property (Yes, although QR is government owned but it's not a public space) they should be able to, I wouldn't think that its not all that much different than a business enforcing a dress code.

As to enforcement of it can't they just give them a move on "order" which basically means the have to leave or they are effectively trespassing? (as long as they didn't violate disability or discrimination laws It should be fine)

No.  The trains are part of the public domain.  You can only legally remove somebody from a train in revenue service, emergencies and so on excluded, if they are breaking the law or the conditions of travel.  This will generally be either non-payment of fare or arcing up, being disorderly, threatening etc.  Being a rude bugger, annoying as it is, is not sufficient grounds. 

It could be made a condition of travel or put into the legislation, but one of the very good reasons why I expect it is not is because there are always overlaps - I am sure there are plenty of students who are either less mobile or are injured.  Blanket rules are easier to enforce but tend to produce more injustice.  "Passenger-driven" initiatives like the quiet cars and giving up your seat are difficult to enforce but are fairer.

[awotam]

I'll have to check it next time I'm on a train to make sure, but doesn't the notice say that it's students on free passes who should stand? Either way, apparently it's only a guideline and not a rule / law. My manager's son is a QR guard, and it seems it's not legally enforceable.
Going back to the original post, I can't stand rude commuters either. And there's more than one way of being rude...   My current beef is those who stand lined up with their toes on the yellow line, waiting for their train which is due in about another 25 mins, and won't budge to make way for those who are trying to board the train which is currently on the platform 

[HappyTrainGuy]

It says students on concession.

[#Metro]

Oh look, no need to legislate politeness. If people want to be a**holes then just stare them down or ask
politely if they wouldn't mind moving for the person.

You know, all that needs to be done is print a small polite message onto every student go card / concession go card / why not all go cards about courtesy. "Please show courtesy on PT" or whatever. A small campaign can do it too.

Quiet Carriage as an example.

The last thing I would like to see is officers' time wasted trying to enforce politeness etc-- what are you going to do- fine them? There are more pressing problems that time could be spent on.

[aldonius]

I think the correct balance would be:
"Students on concession tickets should not occupy seats whilst adults are standing and no other seats are available."
I seem to recall seeing that, too.

[O_128]

I think the correct balance would be:
"Students on concession tickets should not occupy seats whilst adults are standing and no other seats are available."
I seem to recall seeing that, too.

"Should" not occupy seats. If it was compulsory it would say students must not occupy seats.

[SurfRail]

Oh look, no need to legislate politeness. If people want to be a**holes then just stare them down or ask
politely if they wouldn't mind moving for the person.

You know, all that needs to be done is print a small polite message onto every student go card / concession go card / why not all go cards about courtesy. "Please show courtesy on PT" or whatever. A small campaign can do it too.

Quiet Carriage as an example.

The last thing I would like to see is officers' time wasted trying to enforce politeness etc-- what are you going to do- fine them? There are more pressing problems that time could be spent on.

+1

[aldonius]

Yes, the should not/must not I'm not entirely sure of, but I'm 90% certain it was "should".

[ozbob]

--> http://translink.com.au/travel-information/how-to/tips-for-courteous-behaviour

[aldonius]

Well, there you go.

School students must vacate their seats if adults are standing.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Which means those that are at TAFE/Uni travelling on a student concession card/ticket can still tell you to get stuffed. (Isn't that the point of this matter?)

Seems translink have kind of started to contridict what QR have set as conditions of travel. QR tells you to stand if you have their pass. Courtsey if you have a gocard.

[dwb]

"School travel" was the old 1/3 fare offered for rail only between school and home station. It is not a general concession ticket.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I know. I was pointing out that if you travelled on a qr pass it was a condition of travel to stand while translink's concession is just a courtsey like the quiet carriage.

[p858snake]

QR just started a discussion about giving seats up on its facebook: https://www.facebook.com/QueenslandRail/posts/168235903247966

[p858snake]

Twitter:

@QueenslandRail: A gentle reminder: students on concession passes are required to stand if adults require a seat. Yes, we mean you in the hoodie.
@squashedpeaches: @QueenslandRail Actually they aren't (legally anyway)
@QueenslandRail: @squashedpeaches Technically correct - there is a difference between conditions of travel and regulations.

(Based on another tweet, they are actually on the WiFi train when it got posted: "@QueenslandRail: This tweet is brought to you from the wifi train - next station - Indooroopilly.")

[BribieG]

I travel evenings and off peak, mostly at weekends and (probably off topic for this thread) I find the biggest problem is lack of train etiquette at quiet times. The biggest offender is Clarrie, Mildred, Augie and Gladys (insert four other totally obsolete names) and it's a constant 90 decibel rant from Caboolture to Central - as they can't communicate without roaring at the tops of their voices:

Hey Clarrie last time I was on a train was in 1970, sh%t look at those new warehouses... hey did I tell you about the big score at the last bowls match at Biloela that Frank went up to? blah blah blah blah

They inevitably park themselves in the so called quiet carriage (not that anyone seems to still observe that)