Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[SurfRail]

Mr Skurrie clearly isn't familiar enough with the timetable to be considered a reliable narrator.

By my count, we have had extra early morning services, all weekend trains upgraded to 6 cars, more additional services in the last 4 years as a proportion of the total than any other line and no additional stops added except for Park Road in the off-peak, which wouldn't affect him I presume.

[#Metro]

He is probably talking about the extension to Varsity lakes which probably has caused more people to use the train and have the train full by the time he catches it. Further stops will mean increased patronage and if services are not improved (wink wink CRR) then those trains are going to be 'like Bombay Express' as the Courier-Mail once put it.

[BrizCommuter]

Well at the moment, most Gold Coast peak services are the "half empty waste of limited track capacity across the Merivale Bridge express".

[somebody]

Well at the moment, most Gold Coast peak services are the "half empty waste of limited track capacity across the Merivale Bridge express".

Funny.

[AnonymouslyBad]

The GC trains have become so well known as the "Bombay Express", that it's almost sad they no longer live up to this name

[colinw]

Whoever coined that braindead term for the Gold Coast trains should be forced to ride the peak hour trains in Mumbai for a while (riding INSIDE the carriage optional), then tell us again how bad the Gold Coast line is. 

[Set in train]

I'd like to see an earlier train inbound and outbound on the GC line, especially weekends. Same for the end of the day. In both directions that is.

There is a 90 min change between weekday and Sunday first arrivals. That needs to be changed, arrives far too late by Sunday. It's too late to access early airport flights.

Would also like to see the Trainlink bus, now called route 745 improved with a faster transfer from trains to bus. It's 28 mins to Surfers for example on the Route 21 but 34 mins via 745.

What I can't understand also is when the super express services are running that omit Coopers Plains, Loganlea & Park Rd, they are of the same duration of the normal express services that stop at those stations. They are away from the CRR bottleneck, so why is it still the same time?

Also, trip duration has increased compared to previous years. Use Web Archive to find old timetables that show faster travel times.

[somebody]

I'd like to see an earlier train inbound and outbound on the GC line, especially weekends. Same for the end of the day. In both directions that is.

There is a 90 min change between weekday and Sunday first arrivals. That needs to be changed, arrives far too late by Sunday. It's too late to access early airport flights.

Would also like to see the Trainlink bus, now called route 745 improved with a faster transfer from trains to bus. It's 28 mins to Surfers for example on the Route 21 but 34 mins via 745.

What I can't understand also is when the super express services are running that omit Coopers Plains, Loganlea & Park Rd, they are of the same duration of the normal express services that stop at those stations. They are away from the CRR bottleneck, so why is it still the same time?

First services are already pretty early except on Sundays.  Might as well run all night, hourly IMO.

Extra dwell times at peak hour no doubt slow these services.  Whether it fully balances with the off peak extra stops, I'm not sure.

[SurfRail]

Maintaining the half-hourly frequency until last service would be welcome, and there is an opportunity to do most of that when the additional Airtrain services come online.

Knowing this place though, dollars to donuts that they will be Roma Street terminators...

[Set in train]

Maintaining the half-hourly frequency until last service would be welcome, and there is an opportunity to do most of that when the additional Airtrain services come online.

Knowing this place though, dollars to donuts that they will be Roma Street terminators...

Probably will be the case, logic comes last naturally.

I can't understand this need for long dwell times when there's not physically a need to load/unload people? Is this the 'don't worry, be happy rail' service?

Say for example I want to attend the public gathering for the Comm Games announcement at Broadwater Parklands. First weekday train arrives Helensvale 6am, on the Saturday in question, it's 6:30. Fortunately it's not a Sunday.

[somebody]

Maintaining the half-hourly frequency until last service would be welcome, and there is an opportunity to do most of that when the additional Airtrain services come online.

Knowing this place though, dollars to donuts that they will be Roma Street terminators...

Would require the additional roads to be made available at the Robina Stabling.  Unless additional northbound PM services are added.  You can get one more service by speeding up the timetable and abolishing the 32 minute dwell.

[Set in train]

November begins next week. Is there a release date for 'consulation'/drafts? Also, are there members here who are current CRG members too? Keen to hear their feedback of what they will input to meetings.

[Derwan]

November begins next week. Is there a release date for 'consulation'/drafts? Also, are there members here who are current CRG members too? Keen to hear their feedback of what they will input to meetings.

Have a look here.  (This is on a members-only forum.)

There are plenty of RailBOT members who are also CRG members.  I'm a member of the Shorncliffe/Doomben line CRG.

[Set in train]

Thanks Derwan, has been good reading.

[BrizCommuter]

Consultation starts Monday apparently. Don't hold your breath for any draft timetables though.

[SurfRail]

Consultation starts Monday apparently. Don't hold your breath for any draft timetables though.

They have told us the reasoning is to avoid a community perception that timetables are locked in from day 1 of consultation.  They will be collecting responses before they come out with anything in the way of drafts.

[O_128]

Consultation starts Monday apparently. Don't hold your breath for any draft timetables though.

They have told us the reasoning is to avoid a community perception that timetables are locked in from day 1 of consultation.  They will be collecting responses before they come out with anything in the way of drafts.

=P  The long response question on my last exam was to design a community consultation program....

Step 1 was.  Have a meeting but although the plan may be locked in to appear to be transparent with the community the first meeting is to be a purely open floor meeting where suggestions can be made etc before being implemented into the plan. The second meeting will then show this plan.

[ozbob]

Consultation for sector 2 is now underway.  Please participate online

--> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Pages/Timetableconsultation.aspx

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

22nd November 2011

Participate or be late?

Greetings,

Sector 2 (stage 2)  rail timetable consultation is now underway.

See --> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Pages/Timetableconsultation.aspx

It is important that everyone is encouraged to participate, either on-line or at the face to face opportunities around on the network and sessions.

This phase includes review of Cleveland, Beenleigh, Gold Coast, Doomben, Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe line.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Emmie]

Did the survey as ordered, Bob. But the questions are so generic as to be virtually meaningless!  I can't imagine much value coming from it.

[ozbob]

Did the survey as ordered, Bob. But the questions are so generic as to be virtually meaningless!  I can't imagine much value coming from it.

Thanks Emmie, direct feedback either face to face or via email is worthwhile as well if you can.

[BrizCommuter]

Did the survey as ordered, Bob. But the questions are so generic as to be virtually meaningless!  I can't imagine much value coming from it.

Have to agree - the survey is really quite meaningless. It smacks of being a delay tactic!
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/11/phase-2-timetables-metro-not-retro.html

Draft timetable just before election = more unhappy voters.

A big question to QR and TransLink is when will we see the draft timetables, and when will they be implemented?

[Derwan]

Did the survey as ordered, Bob. But the questions are so generic as to be virtually meaningless!  I can't imagine much value coming from it.

Have to agree - the survey is really quite meaningless. It smacks of being a delay tactic!

I also agree.  This tends to confirm my previous suspicions that this round of "consultation" is simply so that the government can say, "We are consulting with the public in November 2011 as planned," when in reality all they've done is thrown together a quick survey and called it consultation - and the real work hasn't even started yet.

We're getting close to an election.  The government will do anything to avoid looking as though they haven't delivered (yet again).

[Stillwater]

Ideally, in a consultation process, those being consulted should have ownership of the final outcome.  This was not the case with the Sunshine Coast Line and Ipswich-Rosewood Line consultations, where a draft timetable was produced and people began picking holes in it (in many cases, with good reason).  In other words, it was seen as a QR / Translink timetable fait accompli where adjustments could be made only around the edges.  People felt powerless.  As it turned out, this was the case, by and large.  There wer few changes and tweakings.

Customer ownership is best obtained by saying 'everything is on the table' -- more peak period trains, more late night trains, more off-peak trains, with the emphasis given to the option that most people seem to prefer.  As BrizCommuter has indicated, nearly everyone would want all three.  And they would also want better connectivity between connecting buses at railway stations; also tight, but not missed, transfers between trains and key stations such as Northgate, Bowen Hills etc.

It is hard to get the balance right, but, I agree, we won't see anything concrete until after the election.  The public servants are there to do the government's bidding; and they are, by starting Sector 2 consultation by the end of the year.  However, even public servants must consider they could have new masters early next year, and the convention is not to make major policy decisions around election time, because a new incoming government could ask you to rip everything up and start again.  (That could be the case with CRR, remember.)

A softly-softly consultation process keeps things ticking along, while allowing for the switch to be flicked from the day we know which party will long to reign over us from 2012.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/11/phase-2-timetables-when.html
So when will be see new timetables? Place your bets now!

[Derwan]

So when will be see new timetables? Place your bets now!

I'm betting March 2012.  (And that's being generous.)  Implementation in September 2012.

[Cam]

So when will be see new timetables? Place your bets now!

I'm betting March 2012.  (And that's being generous.)  Implementation in September 2012.

If there are significant improvements compared to the existing timetables then it will be released before the state election.

If there is more padding added, Gold Coast services stopping at additional inner Beenleigh Line stations to fill up in peak periods & no off peak frequency improvements then the state government may delay it's release until after the election.

[Set in train]

If there is more padding added, Gold Coast services stopping at additional inner Beenleigh Line stations to fill up in peak periods & no off peak frequency improvements then the state government may delay it's release until after the election.

To fill up the GC trains in off peak is not necessary, train arrived 2:49 Tuesday afternoon at Coopers Plains, people sitting on the floors, each row of seats had at least one person sitting in it, quite often two, still busy after Beenleigh, these trains are doing alright.

[Arnz]

If there is more padding added, Gold Coast services stopping at additional inner Beenleigh Line stations to fill up in peak periods & no off peak frequency improvements then the state government may delay it's release until after the election.

To fill up the GC trains in off peak is not necessary, train arrived 2:49 Tuesday afternoon at Coopers Plains, people sitting on the floors, each row of seats had at least one person sitting in it, quite often two, still busy after Beenleigh, these trains are doing alright.

That is shoulder peak, I would think at least some school students (as it's pickup hours), early start finishers (ie 5am to 2pm) + Uni Students would fill up that service.  School Holidays, I would think the loads would be slightly lower.

Last I've catched a GC-bound service (middle of the day as far as Coopers Plains), everybody had a seat to themselves (ie loads like any other off-peak service on most lines).

Also I would think some GC services in the busiest of peak periods will have to stop at more stations if you want to accomodate the inner Beenleigh folk or the outer Beenleigh line folks, let alone increase services.   Most GC morning peak trains from what I've seen passing through Park Road a month ago had very few standees.  More stops to maximise capacity and standees like the northern lines wouldn't hurt.

[Set in train]

We'll see what Surfrail has to say about your proposal Arnz!

Were some school aged children on train, none in uniform or looked like they had been to school. Also, no uni students, the crowd was mostly older: 30/40/50's.

[Arnz]

I've seen Surfrail's reply on the "maximising" capacity by extra stops in the past.  I believe he isn't swinging in either direction (eg not for nor against).

The passengers wouldn't happen to be Logan or Beenleigh families/pensioners would they?  I can't speak for past Beenleigh (will assume it's still well utilized past there), but I would think a large number of those passengers are Logan or Beenleigh bound with some folks jumping on the GC bound train at Beenleigh at times in off-peak.  When I caught it a month ago just to check out the off-peak loads during a day off, it's mostly teens or uni/TAFE students in their 20s.

[Set in train]

I've seen Surfrail's reply on the "maximising" capacity by extra stops in the past.  I believe he isn't swinging in either direction (eg not for nor against).

The passengers wouldn't happen to be Logan or Beenleigh families/pensioners would they?  I can't speak for past Beenleigh (will assume it's still well utilized past there), but I would think a large number of those passengers are Logan or Beenleigh bound with some folks jumping on the GC bound train at Beenleigh at times in off-peak.  When I caught it a month ago just to check out the off-peak loads during a day off, it's mostly teens or uni/TAFE students in their 20s.

Yes, I guess the dynamics differ with each service. Train was still well filled after Beenleigh.

[SurfRail]

I've seen Surfrail's reply on the "maximising" capacity by extra stops in the past.  I believe he isn't swinging in either direction (eg not for nor against).

The passengers wouldn't happen to be Logan or Beenleigh families/pensioners would they?  I can't speak for past Beenleigh (will assume it's still well utilized past there), but I would think a large number of those passengers are Logan or Beenleigh bound with some folks jumping on the GC bound train at Beenleigh at times in off-peak.  When I caught it a month ago just to check out the off-peak loads during a day off, it's mostly teens or uni/TAFE students in their 20s.

I'll say this - it is a highly sub-optimal solution, but is about the best that we can expect on the current infrastructure.

[Set in train]

I'll say this - it is a highly sub-optimal solution, but is about the best that we can expect on the current infrastructure.

Question about the infrastructure plans, the next stage of triplication is planned to be Kuraby to Kingston? Shouldn't the third track go all the way to Beenleigh otherwise it shifts the problem further south?

[SurfRail]

I'll say this - it is a highly sub-optimal solution, but is about the best that we can expect on the current infrastructure.

Question about the infrastructure plans, the next stage of triplication is planned to be Kuraby to Kingston? Shouldn't the third track go all the way to Beenleigh otherwise it shifts the problem further south?

In an ideal world, you would want 4 tracks from Salisbury to Loganlea to maintain decent headways in both directions.  I don't know you would ever need additional tracks further south though.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The only tracks needed futher south would be to remove the single line between Helensvale and Coomera. Past Beenleigh there are no other trains running as Holmview is the last place you'll get to see a freight-cattletrain.

[SurfRail]

The only tracks needed futher south would be to remove the single line between Helensvale and Coomera. Past Beenleigh there are no other trains running as Holmview is the last place you'll get to see a freight-cattletrain.

And even with the potential Connecting SEQ long-term blueprint of 4-8 trains per hour off-peak from Helensvale to Loganlea (2-4 expresses from beyond Helensvale and 2-4 all stations to Loganlea originating at Helensvale), would you even need more than one track each way?  I doubt it from what I understand of how intensively some overseas lines are worked.

Trouts Road is supposed to be 2 tracks carrying a 15 minute all stations pattern and intercities as well, with similar characteristics to the better-engineered Gold Coast line than anything else in Brisbane other than the Richlands spur.  It can be done.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't even see Helensvale-Loganlea trains getting off the ground to start with let alone the government finding all the money for these massive future public transport plans/rollingstock/infrastructure.

[BrizCommuter]

Trouts Road is supposed to be 2 tracks carrying a 15 minute all stations pattern and intercities as well, with similar characteristics to the better-engineered Gold Coast line than anything else in Brisbane other than the Richlands spur.  It can be done.

The Trouts Road Line is planned to have turnouts at stations to allow expresses to overtake all stations. Nowhere else in Brisbane has this infrastructure.

[somebody]

Trouts Road is supposed to be 2 tracks carrying a 15 minute all stations pattern and intercities as well, with similar characteristics to the better-engineered Gold Coast line than anything else in Brisbane other than the Richlands spur.  It can be done.

The Trouts Road Line is planned to have turnouts at stations to allow expresses to overtake all stations. Nowhere else in Brisbane has this infrastructure.

Do you mean on the wrong direction track?