Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[somebody]

In spite of the GC trains currently using the DG in the AM and PM, I see this as something which could easily change in the phase 2 timetables.  Just have the passing moves between Coopers Plains and Kuraby, and Bob's your uncle.  It does reduce margin, of course, but in the PM it also reduces conflicting moves.  So it could be argued that it has advantages.

[ozbob]

During part of the morning peak, the Dual Gauge is dedicated solely for the XPT, forcing inbound trains from Gold Coast onto the suburbans.

I do suspect the "9 skipped stops" express (exp Loganlea to Coopers Plains) may have to be applied to some morning services from the Gold Coast as well (during the times the XPT operates).

I would not be surprised if the XPT service was moved out of the peaks. A possible swap with the Casino XPT http://www.countrylink.info/timetables/northcoast/brisbane_to_sydney

So the daily XPT to Brisbane would arrive in the evening and return to Sydney overnight.

This would allow for some further improvements for phase two.

[Stillwater]

A good idea - through passengers could sleep on the train overnight rather than book a hotel room.  They would arrive to have a complete day of business/sight-seeing.  It seems that people at intermediate stops (Grafton, Port Macquarie etc) are used to the Sydney train stopping in their town at strange times.

[somebody]

I question the point of any review of the suburban timetables which will absorb more rolling stock while there *may* not be enough rolling stock to have a reasonable counter peak service on the Ipswich line.

Will the review reduce the requirement for rolling stock? Seems unlikely to me, although may be a possibility for the Cleveland line.

Are we going to make the suburbans limited stop to Northgate, since the Caboolture/Nambour line has that covered?? 

[Derwan]

Are we going to make the suburbans limited stop to Northgate, since the Caboolture/Nambour line has that covered?? 

Perhaps Mains should be express between Northgate and Eagle Junction - and Suburbans should be express between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills.  With the increased frequency that stage 2 will bring to the Suburbans, that set-up should adequately service all in-between stations - although some may find they need to change trains to continue their journey for the first time (like a few on the Ipswich line have discovered).  It would also mean that the stopping pattern for the Airtrain wouldn't need to change.

But at the end if the day, I think there won't be any express services between Northgate and Bowen Hills - with the possible exception of the Airtrain.

[somebody]

But at the end if the day, I think there won't be any express services between Northgate and Bowen Hills - with the possible exception of the Airtrain.

And the GYN trains.

It doesn't make any sense to me, especially the daytime NBR trains.

[johnnigh]

A casual conversation with a fellow traveller the other day gave a bit of a reality check on timetable musings often seen on this forum. My fellow traveller's daughter had just taken a job with a metropolitan railway/transport authority (don't know which one). Her job was to work on timetables. She was a recent 1st class honours graduate in mathematics from Melbourne University, with some graduate work continuing.

Reminded me of my mis-spent final undergrad years when I was asked to struggle with a discipline known then as 'dynamic programming'. I never did master it, not being better than a very ordinary mathematician. But some of the examples of very intractable problems were brought back to haunt me - Maximise frequency of departures into a network subject to headway and crossing restrictions with a given volume of rolling stock. Impossibility of demonstrating a maximum was one of the then-possible results (ie, any improved outcome could not be shown to be the best).

I hope that further advances in the theory have resolved this one and all those like it, but I'm not confident, given the mathematical/computational/logical limitations inherent in this discipline.

But I'm reminded why timetabling is a very difficult job, conceptually. 

[skippy]

Basically, having DST south of the border works out better for us from an operational perspective because the XPT is gone earlier before the real service density starts happening.

[/quote]

Not true. Unlike Europe the QR timetables do not change from summer to winter. The scheduling needs to cater for the XPT to use the dual gauge track at the worst possible time. ie. South Bank to Salisbury between 6.35-6.50 and 7.35-7.50am.  Don't get me wrong, I have family within walking distance of Sawtell station and am one of the fully paying passengers to use the thing.  We just need to get it out of the morning peak, transfer the GC trains on the DG and free up some peak paths for Cleveland and Beenleigh services.

[petey3801]

Basically, having DST south of the border works out better for us from an operational perspective because the XPT is gone earlier before the real service density starts happening.

Not true. Unlike Europe the QR timetables do not change from summer to winter. The scheduling needs to cater for the XPT to use the dual gauge track at the worst possible time. ie. South Bank to Salisbury between 6.35-6.50 and 7.35-7.50am.  Don't get me wrong, I have family within walking distance of Sawtell station and am one of the fully paying passengers to use the thing.  We just need to get it out of the morning peak, transfer the GC trains on the DG and free up some peak paths for Cleveland and Beenleigh services.

It is true, because during DST, the XPT arrives and departs Brisbane 1 hour earlier (EST). Therefore, the XPT is gone from Roma Street at 0630, long before the height of peak.


Edit: Fixed up the quote formatting

[somebody]

Perhaps the problem for the Stage 2 Timetables is that the IPS-CAB timetable has tied up to much of the rollingstock?

[Fares_Fair]

Perhaps the problem for the Stage 2 Timetables is that the IPS-CAB timetable has tied up to much of the rollingstock?

Are you saying that perhaps they haven't planned for the appropriate rollingstock resources to provide train services, here in Queensland ?
Our planning is world class. 
But if you want action well that's a whole other story.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[skippy]

Basically, having DST south of the border works out better for us from an operational perspective because the XPT is gone earlier before the real service density starts happening.

Not true. Unlike Europe the QR timetables do not change from summer to winter. The scheduling needs to cater for the XPT to use the dual gauge track at the worst possible time. ie. South Bank to Salisbury between 6.35-6.50 and 7.35-7.50am.  Don't get me wrong, I have family within walking distance of Sawtell station and am one of the fully paying passengers to use the thing.  We just need to get it out of the morning peak, transfer the GC trains on the DG and free up some peak paths for Cleveland and Beenleigh services.

It is true, because during DST, the XPT arrives and departs Brisbane 1 hour earlier (EST). Therefore, the XPT is gone from Roma Street at 0630, long before the height of peak.


Edit: Fixed up the quote formatting

Agree the XPT departs 0630 for several months of the year, that not the point. The issue is we can't add inbound Beenleigh and a Cleveland services to the current timetable to via South Bank around 0735 to 0745 because after 31 March that slot is taken by the XPT for the winter. Of course QR could create seperate winter and summer timetables as is done in Europe to get around this.

[SurfRail]

Basically, having DST south of the border works out better for us from an operational perspective because the XPT is gone earlier before the real service density starts happening.

Not true. Unlike Europe the QR timetables do not change from summer to winter. The scheduling needs to cater for the XPT to use the dual gauge track at the worst possible time. ie. South Bank to Salisbury between 6.35-6.50 and 7.35-7.50am.  Don't get me wrong, I have family within walking distance of Sawtell station and am one of the fully paying passengers to use the thing.  We just need to get it out of the morning peak, transfer the GC trains on the DG and free up some peak paths for Cleveland and Beenleigh services.

It is true, because during DST, the XPT arrives and departs Brisbane 1 hour earlier (EST). Therefore, the XPT is gone from Roma Street at 0630, long before the height of peak.


Edit: Fixed up the quote formatting

Agree the XPT departs 0630 for several months of the year, that not the point. The issue is we can't add inbound Beenleigh and a Cleveland services to the current timetable to via South Bank around 0735 to 0745 because after 31 March that slot is taken by the XPT for the winter. Of course QR could create seperate winter and summer timetables as is done in Europe to get around this.

The point I was making is that the highly variable nature of the XPT's actual arrival and departure times can muck up an otherwise reasonably reliable schedule (including my usual 6:59 ex-Nerang service).  When DST is on, that does not present as big a problem because the service density is lower and you can use the Beenleigh down track to get around it more easily without having to dodge all the trains that would be using it an hour later.  Not suggesting we should be adding services for half the year only.

[Cam]

Of course QR could create seperate winter and summer timetables as is done in Europe to get around this.

Or we could turn our clocks forward by an hour & back again 6 months later like they do south of the border.

[mufreight]

Of course QR could create seperate winter and summer timetables as is done in Europe to get around this.

Or we could turn our clocks forward by an hour & back again 6 months later like they do south of the border.

Or we could just shut down the XPT service or terminate it at Acacia Ridge.

[somebody]

Or we could just shut down the XPT service or terminate it at Acacia Ridge.

Ooh Aah.  That would require a platform there, and also there would be no connection to the rest of the network.  Perhaps you are joking?

I actually think it should have been a South Brisbane termination, but it's too late for that now.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just swap the interchange times between the current BrisbaneXPT and the CasinoXPT.

[O_128]

Of course QR could create seperate winter and summer timetables as is done in Europe to get around this.

Or we could turn our clocks forward by an hour & back again 6 months later like they do south of the border.

But ny curtains will fade !

[mufreight]

Just swap the interchange times between the current BrisbaneXPT and the CasinoXPT.

This would require at least one more XPT set to be placed in service or the elimination of one of the daily return internal NSW sevices, neither of which is a realistic option.

[somebody]

Just swap the interchange times between the current BrisbaneXPT and the CasinoXPT.

This would require at least one more XPT set to be placed in service or the elimination of one of the daily return internal NSW sevices, neither of which is a realistic option.

Surely some reshuffling of the other services is also possible.  But obviously is not without impacts.

[david]

Perhaps the problem for the Stage 2 Timetables is that the IPS-CAB timetable has tied up to much of the rollingstock?

I envisage that the use of 3-car units becoming more prominent after Phase 2. But I think that it's better to have 3-car units running around than have no service at all.

Mind you, I think that part of the reason why QR hired counters to monitor services during Phase 1 implementation was to see if they could chop some 6-car services to 3-cars in order to increase the rollingstock available for Phase 2. Case in point is the 6:10pm Central-Richlands train. Started off as a 6-car but was then promptly cut to a 3-car service two days later. The service is always cattle-class after leaving Roma St, but thankfully, equalisation often occurs at Taringa or Indooroopilly.

[mufreight]

Just swap the interchange times between the current BrisbaneXPT and the CasinoXPT.

This would require at least one more XPT set to be placed in service or the elimination of one of the daily return internal NSW sevices, neither of which is a realistic option.

Surely some reshuffling of the other services is also possible.  But obviously is not without impacts.

One wonders what it takes to enlighten the unenlightened.
Countrylink has only so much resources hence the current timetabling and equipment utilisation of XPT and Explorer sets.
So it becomes a case of take your pick, a Sydney/Brisbane/Sydney passenger service or no service for Interstate passengers and a couple of additional paths for Brisbane commuter services.
Countrylink would love to be relieved of their obligation to operate the XPT services to and from Brisbane which lose money and utilise equipment that could be better utilised from the NSW Government point of view on internal NSW services.
Again more headless chook comments that achieve little or nothing overall

[somebody]

Just swap the interchange times between the current BrisbaneXPT and the CasinoXPT.

This would require at least one more XPT set to be placed in service or the elimination of one of the daily return internal NSW sevices, neither of which is a realistic option.

Surely some reshuffling of the other services is also possible.  But obviously is not without impacts.

One wonders what it takes to enlighten the unenlightened.
Countrylink has only so much resources hence the cuttent timetabling and equipment utilisation of XPT and Explorer sets.
So it becomes a case of take your pick, a Sydney/Brisbane/Sydney passenger service or no service for Interstate passengers and a couple of additional paths for Brisbane commuter services.
Countrylink would love to be relieved of their obligation to operate the XPT services to and from Brisbane which lose money and utilise equipment that could be better utilised from the NSW Government point of view on internal NSW services.
Again more headless chook comments that achieve little or nothing overall

Might help if you started making sense!

For the record, in addition to my previous comments, only a few years (I think about 5) the Casino XPT was a Murwillimbah XPT. Perhaps XPT services have expanded elsewhere tying up the rollingstocks' time.  I'm not sure on that one.

Right now, you are sounding like QR/TL with your "It can't be done".  Also, every CountryLink rail service loses money, and probably the bus ones too.

[mufreight]

Cutting back the Murwillumbah XPT to Casino has little relevance to the numbers of sets in use and their rostering so your assumptions there lack credibility.
As for other alterations to services within NSW there have been some but the avalibility of XPT sets is at best tight to the point that if there is a major failure with a single power unit it frequently results in a service being operated with a shortened consist and one power unit.
As Simon has so elequently pointed out it can be done, withdraw the interstate passenger service and gain one, possibly two additional inbound train paths for commuter services between Sailsbury and South Brisbane.
A simpler option would be to route these services which are in conflict with the outbound XPT via Tennyson and Sherwood then into Roma Street express down the mains, yes it would add possibly three minutes to the transit time, with the possibility of parthing conflicts at Sherwood and the service to South Bank and South Brisbane would be lost but then I seem to recall reading a post that would have exactly the same effect for Northgate and Eagle Junction passengers that would affect a greater number of services.
Sense is relative to the knowledge of the person presenting the idea and the understanding of the ramifications of the proposal.

[somebody]

The problem with going around via Tennyson (presumably on the suburbans) for the Gold Coast train is that you are then caught behind an all stopping train which is coming every 6 minutes.  You would be far better off to leave the DG and just stick behind (or in front) of a suburban service.

But I thought we were talking about XPT retimings?  I'm not across the impacts of that, and I don't doubt that there are impacts.

As for cutting back being irrelevant, It's not if the XPT involved hasn't been re-allocated elsewhere.

[Stillwater]

Agree with Mufreight.  NSW Government operates the XPT services and would be itching to reallocate its fleet to inter-urban rail services within NSW borders (ie, none to Brisbane).  Same applies on the Sydney-Canberra run, where that service crosses into another jurisdiction (ACT Government).  XPT/Explorer fleet is long in the tooth and suffers maintenance issues.  Casino-Murwillumbah Line needs about $500 million (mostly old timber bridges) to bring it up to scratch.  No trains run on it,  None.  Yet it would be an ideal line for shuttles between the towns down that way ... Casino, Lismore, Byron Bay, Bangalow etc -- possibly with a deviation along the coast and terminating at Coolongatta Airport.  State borders mean something, even if we drive across them unimpeded.

[O_128]

State borders mean something, even if we drive across them unimpeded.

O of course they do, Yet in Europe you can get a train from italy to switzerland or England to France. We really are Pathetic

[mufreight]

The problem with going around via Tennyson (presumably on the suburbans) for the Gold Coast train is that you are then caught behind an all stopping train which is coming every 6 minutes.  You would be far better off to leave the DG and just stick behind (or in front) of a suburban service.

But I thought we were talking about XPT retimings?  I'm not across the impacts of that, and I don't doubt that there are impacts.

As for cutting back being irrelevant, It's not if the XPT involved hasn't been re-allocated elsewhere.

The point remains that at the present time anf for the forseable future rescheduling the XPT is not an option either from a commercial aspect or from an operational and utilisation perspective.  Countrylink operates the Brisbane service under a carryover from the original border railways agreement an obligation they would very much like to be relieved of, V Line has ownership of one XPT set as part of the agreement to operate services to Melbourne yet because of the utilisation factors has no control over the timings other than the avaliability of train paths.

[somebody]

Countrylink operates the Brisbane service under a carryover from the original border railways agreement an obligation they would very much like to be relieved of,

Plausible.

V Line has ownership of one XPT set as part of the agreement to operate services to Melbourne yet because of the utilisation factors has no control over the timings other than the avaliability of train paths.

Doesn't ring true.  Double daily XPTs operate Sydney-Melbourne branded as CountryLink.  With the NE SG conversion, V/Line have gauge converted some of their rolling stock to operate Albury services.

[mufreight]

Countrylink operates the Brisbane service under a carryover from the original border railways agreement an obligation they would very much like to be relieved of,

Plausible.

V Line has ownership of one XPT set as part of the agreement to operate services to Melbourne yet because of the utilisation factors has no control over the timings other than the avaliability of train paths.

Doesn't ring true.  Double daily XPTs operate Sydney-Melbourne branded as CountryLink.  With the NE SG conversion, V/Line have gauge converted some of their rolling stock to operate Albury services.

Just shows how little some people know, V line had to cough up to purchase an additional XPT set.
The original arrangement was that the Aurora rollingstock was joint stock, the Spirit was operated with two sets of VR rollingstock and NSW provided two sets for the Daylights.  When the Spirit and the Aurora were withdrawn the Limited was operated with a mix of the joint stock Aurora cars and the Spirit cars with the Daylights being replaced eventualy with the XPT, to provide a balance of XPT sets Victoria agreed to pay for an additional XPT set to enable the withdrawl of the loco hauled overnight services.
Countrylink provides all maintanence but crewing of the services between Junee and Melbourne is as I understand it with V Line staff with the posible exception of the drivers.

Might I suggest that you doubt this that you do a little research, a starting point could be Railway Digest or if you prefer the Railpage Australia website.

[somebody]

Looks like I have to give you the one about V/Line owning an XPT.  Supported by one poster on vicsig.  Allegedly there are plans for a 5/daily SYD-MEL train with XPTs plus N's.

Anyway, back to the main point of this thread.  I'm still not sure if there is ANY feasible plan for getting a reasonable service on any of the suburban lines with the current fleet.  6tph Beenleigh/Cleveland?

[mufreight]

Looks like I have to give you the one about V/Line owning an XPT.  Supported by one poster on vicsig.  Allegedly there are plans for a 5/daily SYD-MEL train with XPTs plus N's.

Anyway, back to the main point of this thread.  I'm still not sure if there is ANY feasible plan for getting a reasonable service on any of the suburban lines with the current fleet.  6tph Beenleigh/Cleveland?

It would possibly be more correct to say that V Line paid for one XPT set, ownership and who pays for what with the operating costs of the service would probably take an office full of beancounter and legal beagles to get to the bottom of and that would be before the politicial minders and spin doctors got to the figures.

It is possibe as I understand that there might be an extension of service from Albury that will provide a Wagga Wagga - Melbourne daily service but at the moment that is in the feasability thinking stage.

[SurfRail]

Ownership of long distance rollingstock can be a bit of a tough one to trace in Australia these days...

[cough] GSPE [/cough]

[Derwan]

At the CRG last night I asked if the Sandgate upgrade had started.  I was advised that it will probably start later this year - or possibly even early next year.

I asked this question specifically because the timetablers told us that the Sandgate upgrade was "a given" for the stage 2 timetables.

This indicates that stage 2 will not be implemented until at least mid next year.  (I assume the Sandgate upgrades will take a few months.)

[somebody]

I would assume that there can be no stage 2 timetables until extra rolling stock from the next gen order arrives anyway.

[SurfRail]

I would assume that there can be no stage 2 timetables until extra rolling stock from the next gen order arrives anyway.

They won't be coming until 2014, so they are still obviously able to do something based on the current timeframes.

[somebody]

They won't be coming until 2014, so they are still obviously able to do something based on the current timeframes.

I'm not sure what the something that they are able to do would be though??

[SurfRail]

They won't be coming until 2014, so they are still obviously able to do something based on the current timeframes.

I'm not sure what the something that they are able to do would be though??

That is indeed the magic question.

Presumably, more 3 car-sets, and better fleet utilisation once they have shrugged off any residual technical issues from the floods and once the refurbishment program for the 100/120/200/220 series sets is, or is largely, finished.

[somebody]

This is exactly where I think the 6 June 2011 timetable screwed up.  Where to from here?

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail 22nd October 2011 page 72

Queensland Rail's revamp is still not a ticket to ride