Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[James]

What I'd like to see is the following:
a) Express the mains Bowen Hills - Northgate stopping only at Eagle Junction, remove Bowen Hills - Northgate on the subs, and adjust the timetable on the subs to provide 4tph Eagle Junction - Bowen Hills (all stops) 6am - 11pm 7 days a week, with BUZ 300 covering Toombul/Nundah adequately.
b) Re-allocate rail kms from there to give 4tph Bowen Hills - Manly 6am - 9pm 7 days a week.
c) Re-allocate rail kms from there to give 4tph Ferny Grove - Park Road 6am - 9pm 7 days a week. If possible, extend frequency to Coopers Plains.
d) Fix up Ips/Springfield lines so that they have 4tph between 6am and 10am on Sundays (current frequency is atrocious, we are not all at church on a Sunday morning QR!).

As it is, the current 'high-frequency' options really are not that great at all, they die far too early. To get a proper frequent network with buses feeding trains, we need 4tph 6am - 9pm 7 days a week, with 2tph until final service.

I am not fussed with lack of 4tph to Ipswich. Caboolture and Beenleigh are almost as major and will only have 2tph (well, Cab has 2.66tph and Beenleigh 4tph, but its not really clockface or spaced well anyway, so effectively 2tph). Inner suburban demand is a lot stronger thanks to the higher density.

Sure, 4tph to Ipswich would be nice, but all it would do is spread resources. BUZ succeeded because it concentrated services on key corridors, and if we upgrade frequency to 4tph 6am - 9pm 7 days a week, I suspect we can really ramp up the feeder buses (FUZ, anyone?) and get some serious pax on to the system.

[dancingmongoose]

Option B. Get the Ferny Grove line 15 minutes and Doomben line to 30 minutes (and of course preferably extend to Corinda) all week

[achiruel]

BUZ 300 covering Toombul/Nundah adequately.

You've got to be kidding?

300 takes FOREVER to get from Nundah/Toombul to the CBD.  Even in the middle of the night it's half an hour.  Compared with 16 minutes Toombul-Central.
Peak is even worse with the 300 taking 46 minutes Toombul-City

You seriously think people will use that as an alternative to the train?

Good way to get everyone into cars I reckon!

[James]

You've got to be kidding?

300 takes FOREVER to get from Nundah/Toombul to the CBD.  Even in the middle of the night it's half an hour.  Compared with 16 minutes Toombul-Central.
Peak is even worse with the 300 taking 46 minutes Toombul-City

You seriously think people will use that as an alternative to the train?

Good way to get everyone into cars I reckon!

Yes, the network might chuck a few people in to cars within walking distance of two stations, but the network will gain significant pax numbers from the Cleveland line (to Manly) and the Ferny Grove line. If there's the resources to extend to Sandgate/Shorncliffe, sure, go for 15 minute frequency on the entire line. I just see the 15 minute frequency (which would only help people at about two stations) as a waste of route-km which could be better spent elsewhere.

[BrizCommuter]

The next one with lowest (probably zero) capital cost is CL line, although it is probably only as far as Manly/Lota area but it has to run somewhere so this become Shorncliff. I tend to agree with the 20min statement and 20min is probably very practical in frequency, infrastructure and demand for Shorncliff to Cleveland provided it can slot into the 15min/30min schedule from FG/BL/GC/AP. The 20min doesn't have to be 100% clockface if that makes it easier by within 2-3min should be doable.

20 min frequency on one line will not fit in with 15 min frequencies on other lines.
The Cleveland Line and Shorncliffe Lines can handle 15 minute frequency with existing infrastructure when the time comes.
Given the sector 2 timetables were based around a 15/30minute cycle, then I can pretty much guarantee we won't be seeing 20 min frequencies on the suburbans.

[HappyTrainGuy]

2exptph Ipswich-Caboolture. 4tph Springfield-Kippa Ring. Ipswich and Caboolture miss out on extra trains but atleast they get express services. In regards to the Caboolture line the bus network needs a revamp aswell (in regards to frequency and running hours). Mostly because the current walk up patronage doesn't support the need for a 15 min frequency. Depending on the timetable maybe even merging the Nambour line onto the Caboolture line with every x service continuing on to Nambour.

[aldonius]

Personally, I would love to see greatly increased span, though with bustitution for cost reasons. NightLink every night!

Restricting myself to train service improvements, Shorncliffe to Manly 15min is the obvious candidate, with slight (i.e. extra 1-3 services in each category) weekday evening frequency-span and overall-span improvements a very close second.

I feel that 30min is still acceptable on weekends for individual branches; frequency improvements for FG at least would be due in 10 years.

[techblitz]

BUZ 300 covering Toombul/Nundah adequately.

You've got to be kidding?

300 takes FOREVER to get from Nundah/Toombul to the CBD.  Even in the middle of the night it's half an hour.  Compared with 16 minutes Toombul-Central.
Peak is even worse with the 300 taking 46 minutes Toombul-City

Its not as ridiculous as you think....translink also supported this in thier review...

Frequent route 12 Chermiside to city via toombul/ hamilton (sandgate/kitchener rds)

Expand service to new areas that currently do not receive frequent service, including Taigum (via Muller and Newman Roads), The Grange (via Webster Road), and Toombul (via Hamilton Road and Kingsford Smith Drive).

TL on the ball........ for them...the competition between bus and rail around those parts not a concern....

[HappyTrainGuy]

BUZ 300 covering Toombul/Nundah adequately.

You've got to be kidding?

300 takes FOREVER to get from Nundah/Toombul to the CBD.  Even in the middle of the night it's half an hour.  Compared with 16 minutes Toombul-Central.
Peak is even worse with the 300 taking 46 minutes Toombul-City

Its not as ridiculous as you think....translink also supported this in thier review...

Frequent route 12 Chermiside to city via toombul/ hamilton (sandgate/kitchener rds)

Expand service to new areas that currently do not receive frequent service, including Taigum (via Muller and Newman Roads), The Grange (via Webster Road), and Toombul (via Hamilton Road and Kingsford Smith Drive).

TL on the ball........ for them...the competition between bus and rail around those parts not a concern....

That's correct but people have to remember that the proposed bus network was completely different. The 300 buz/HF route was never designed as a fast City-Toombul service - if you wanted that then you would catch the train. Some of the buz routes were aimed at servicing particular areas/providing access to interchanges/shopping centres rather than a city to far our terminus route like the 330 or 340 buz routes we have now. The Mitchelton-Albany Creek buz was also another example where instead of going all the way to the city it dumped passengers at an interchange where you either transfered onto a East-West route for other connections, boarded another feeder type bus route that takes its time getting to the city (designed to service the next area) or transfer onto a frequent and faster train service (The northside loop bus was the greatest example of this where there were 5-6 HF routes to connect to). There was more focus on interchanges either at busway stations, railway stations or sharing a couple stops that were on buz routes. There was also a lot more feeder and east-west routes. It was a proper integrated network. Not perfect but for the northside it was really a great step forward.

For the record buz routes don't have to be the fastest or most direct routes. Its a standard service frequency and running hours.

[#Metro]

Bit of a moot point re:300. It already is on a 20 minute cycle. Not long to go before it is a BUZ.

[SurfRail]

^ Airport probably justifies 15 minute headways as well.  Just turnback 2 per hour at Roma Street 2/3.

The suburban line from Roma St to Eagle Jn should be oriented around 7-8 minute headways of alternating Shorncliffe and Airport trains with the half-hourly Doomben services inlaid.  This should already be workable because Cleveland (SHC/NTG) trains depart just before Gold Coast (APT) trains, which are followed by the Beenleigh full length services after the express goes through.

[achiruel]

Ideally I'd like to see:

IPS-CAB 2TPH EXP DAR-RS exc IND & BH-PET exc EJ & NG
SPF-KR 4TPH
BL-FG 2TPH
KBY-FG 2TPH (or Altandi if Kuraby is not workable.  I think the current terminus at Coopers Plains makes little sense, unless there is some operational reason for that limit.)
MNY-SHC 2TPH
CLV-SHC2TPH
PKR-DBN 2TPH
VSL-DOM 2TPH
RST-DOM 2TPH

10TPH Park Road-Roma St
4TPH Springfield-Petrie
10TPH Northgate
8TPH Nundah/Toombul
14TPH Eagle Junction
10TPH Albion/Woolloowin
4TPH Manly-Park Rd
4TPH Kuraby (Altandi)-Park Rd
4TPH Eagle Junction-Airport
2TPH Eagle Junction-Doomben
2TPH Ipswich-Darra
2TPH Caboolture-Northgate

I think I worked that out correctly.

[dancingmongoose]

Would you extend Caboolture services to Landsborough, and then Nambour, after realignment?

[BrizCommuter]

I feel that 30min is still acceptable on weekends for individual branches;

What? This is the 21st century. Melbourne has 10 min frequency on weekends!

[Arnz]

Getting into (slight) foaming territory.  Is 3TPH IPS-CAB (exp) possible? One of the 3tph being a Rosewood to Landsborough during weekday off-peak.  In peak, extend to Nambour and maintain the 2tph-3tph peak to NBR.  The downside is that this may require decreasing the off-peak Mooloolah to NBR from 90 mins to 2-hourly (Rail Shuttle Landsborough-Nambour) with a truncated 649 (or a renumbered 635) filling in the hourly gap from Landsborough to Nambour.

There are the ZeroHarm requirements for Rosewood line station short platforms for 6-car services assuming the Rosewood to Landsborough are operated on hourly 6-car rotations.

As was mentioned by others, the existing IPS express pattern (all stations Milton to Bowen Hills), then exp Bowen Hills - Eagle Junction - Petrie, then all to Caboolture/Landsborough.  Shorncliffe/Airport/Doomben picks up the slack for Alb/Wooloowin/Toombul/Nundah.

[petey3801]

Agree with pretty much everything hongsetoufaren said above, refined by achiruel.

15min to Manly is possible with the current setup, just a matter of juggling platforms, however would be easier to just go through to Lota.

I don't think Kuraby is possible at the moment, but Altandi certainly is, and I honestly have no idea why the current Coopers Plains trains don't terminate at Altandi instead. (Considering the Coopers Plains trains sit at Coopers for 24? mins, it's only an extra 6mins up to Altandi, 6mins back, still giving 12mins to turn around at Altandi, without taking up any extra tracks etc).

[dancingmongoose]

RST-DOM 2TPH

Would it be worth at least attempting to get EX-DOM?

[cartoonbirdhaus]

I honestly have no idea why the current Coopers Plains trains don't terminate at Altandi instead.

Probably because there are no crossovers until just west of Kuraby.

[Gazza]

Service kilometres, pax number irrelevant largely, hence the inefficiencies ... 

Direct service model networks have numbered days ...

Interesting to note, all the major cities in NZ are moving to connected networks.  Brisbane?  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Reckon that's why they like running heaps of busway services? Cheapest and quickest way to run up service kilometers?

[dancingmongoose]

Not entirely sure on current arrangements at coopers plains. If the terminators come in on platform 3 and leave from platform 3 24 mins later, then going to Altandi would be fine. If it's any other platform, then it wouldn't work I don't think.

They terminate on platform 1 and then depart from platform 2

[James]

Not entirely sure on current arrangements at coopers plains. If the terminators come in on platform 3 and leave from platform 3 24 mins later, then going to Altandi would be fine. If it's any other platform, then it wouldn't work I don't think.

They terminate on platform 1 and then depart from platform 2

Nope, terminators arrive, turnaround and then depart on platform 2. Trains arrive at :19/:49 past the hour, then depart at :40/:10. Extending these trains to Altandi would have trains arriving at :25/:55 past the hour and departing at :34/:04 past the hour. Maybe a bit tight when it comes to turning around the train - 9 minute turn-around.

Note that they'd have to use the middle track all the way there and back due to GC trains going through around the arrival/departure time. I like the idea though - it means people going to the GC from Dutton Park to Sunnybank can leave 15 minutes later and do a cross-platform transfer to a Gold Coast train, and vice versa. It would be a tight connection though - any delay would leave you high and dry.

[petey3801]

I honestly have no idea why the current Coopers Plains trains don't terminate at Altandi instead.

Probably because there are no crossovers until just west of Kuraby.

There's also no crossovers at Cooparoo. Oh, sorry, I thought we were just making random statements.

Coopers Plains trains cross over to the middle road (Down Sub) before Coopers and arrive and terminate on platform 2, from which they start their next Ferny Grove train from the same place. All Down Beenleigh/Gold Coast trains use the 3rd road. They arrive at :19/:49 and depart at :10/:40, giving 21mins turnaround time. They can quite easily travel to/from Altandi on the middle road (which they are blocking anyway). Arrival at Altandi would be at :25/:55, departure at :04/:34, enough time for a turnaround (9 minutes, same as the Airport).

[Gazza]

One to raise with the timetable man?

[BrizCommuter]

If they're arriving on 2 and inbound trains are using 3, then I really see no reason why they can't be extended to Altandi. 9 minute turnaround is fine

It goes against QR's ridiculous timetable padding policy.

[SurfRail]

What are the industrial arrangements for minimum recovery time on turning back trains at present?

[petey3801]

Minimum turnback time is 8mins. Currently, the Airport has 9min turnarounds and many empty movements have 8min turnarounds.

[Arnz]

I know this is only a scheduled 3-car service, but care to explain why the #UL01 to #U986 turnaround at Nambour is only 3 minutes?

[ozbob]

I know this is only a scheduled 3-car service, but care to explain why the #UL01 to #U986 turnaround at Nambour is only 3 minutes?

Is there a crew change?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Pretty sure one is a terminating crew and the other crew are starting their shift.

[petey3801]

Yeah, I should have put the provisio in that statement that the minimum 8min turnaround time is for single crew turnaround for a 6car set. A crew change turnaround can be as small as QR dares make it, as long as there is enough time to do the brake tests.

[petey3801]

Minimum turnback time is 8mins. Currently, the Airport has 9min turnarounds and many empty movements have 8min turnarounds.

Need to bring over the Singapore drivers, they do less than 4min.

I bet they don't have to sit at the controls for 2 1/2 hours at a time either, before that 4min turnaround.

[techblitz]

2 seperate commuter complaints to translink today on the 5.47 ex central to cleveland
Racks it up to something like 6 now since implementation...

[dancingmongoose]

What about something like this?

Ferny Grove - Beenleigh: 2TPH
Ferny Grove - Varsity Lakes: 2TPH
Airport - Coopers Plains/Altandi: 2TPH
Airport - Corinda: 2TPH

Ferny Grove gets 15 minutes all day all week, Airport trains can run on 4TPH and can make up for the loss of the Coopers Plains service. Could it work?

[Arnz]

Airtrain if I recall correctly has some form of agreement to continue the vast majority of their services to the Gold Coast, which they also market in their advertisements. 

At least till the BAT or some form of CRR is built.

[James]

The current timetable is fine, it is just QR being lazy with extending trains to Altandi. No reason why it can't happen, really... All together now!

Q U E E N S L A N D E R - Q U E E N S L A N D E R - Q U E E N S L A N D E R

[BrizCommuter]

Minimum turnback time is 8mins. Currently, the Airport has 9min turnarounds and many empty movements have 8min turnarounds.

Need to bring over the Singapore drivers, they do less than 4min.

London Underground Victoria Line drivers 'do it' in 1min45secs (with a driver change).
Metro de Santiago drivers 'do it' in 25secs (double ending).

[petey3801]

Minimum turnback time is 8mins. Currently, the Airport has 9min turnarounds and many empty movements have 8min turnarounds.

Need to bring over the Singapore drivers, they do less than 4min.

London Underground Victoria Line drivers 'do it' in 1min45secs (with a driver change).
Metro de Santiago drivers 'do it' in 25secs (double ending).

A crew change turnaround can be as small as QR dares make it, as long as there is enough time to do the brake tests.

[hU0N]

Does anyone know what happens to Roma Street terminators after they leave Roma Street?  Standing on the platform, these trains appear to move off down the western line towards Milton, is this the case?

If these trains do already run past Milton, I think serious consideration should be given to actually terminating them there (once the station upgrade is complete of course).  There are a huge number of workplaces within the Milton station walkshed (CDOP, Kings Row, Castlemaine Street precinct, Railway Terrace precinct, Douglas Street precinct), and every day platform 8 at Roma Street is packed with commuters waiting for one of the 4tph counter peak services to get to Milton.

[dancingmongoose]

Does anyone know what happens to Roma Street terminators after they leave Roma Street?  Standing on the platform, these trains appear to move off down the western line towards Milton, is this the case?

If these trains do already run past Milton, I think serious consideration should be given to actually terminating them there (once the station upgrade is complete of course).  There are a huge number of workplaces within the Milton station walkshed (CDOP, Kings Row, Castlemaine Street precinct, Railway Terrace precinct, Douglas Street precinct), and every day platform 8 at Roma Street is packed with commuters waiting for one of the 4tph counter peak services to get to Milton.

There are certainly some that run down the western line, some run dead to Corinda and stop at platform 3 for a crew change, others run via Tennyson presumably to start somewhere along the Beenleigh line (like Coopers Plains) as that way they don't take up a path on the Merivale

[Arnz]

There is a bunch of sidings in Kelvin Grove along with a short turnback platform (like the ones just north of Bowen Hills station), which if I recall correctly (open to correction) is used mostly to turn back the ex-Nambour terminators (and occasional trains from other northern destinations) for return trip up North. 

A off-peak/weekend train ex-Nambour generally has 23 minute turnback time at Roma Street (terminating services arr RST at :37 and/or :07 past the hour and return trip north departs RST at :00 and/or :30).