Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[ozbob]

Sorry, Bob, I don't think it's an improvement at all for Cleveland residents.  Is Transport trying to dictate to employers to start a staggered work schedule or what?

Hi Neen!

STB is our Redlands region spokesperson.  Please post the specific details of your concerns or message STB.

Thanks.

[Derwan]

Is Transport trying to dictate to employers to start a staggered work schedule or what?

Not dictating but certainly allowing for it, which is great.

It's one of the positive things about this timetable update.  Previously employees probably didn't even bother having the discussion with their bosses about alternative work times - simply because there weren't enough trains earlier or later.  Missing one would mean a half-hour wait... so it's easier to stick to "business hours".  Having additional shoulder-peak services allows for the opportunity to explore flexible working arrangements.

This will in turn reduce the peak load and spread it out over a longer period.  A win-win situation.

I'm guessing on paper it may have appeared to be alright,

I think it's actually important to point out to people (mainly the complainers) that QR doesn't get an opportunity to do a test run of a new timetable.  Everything is "on paper", whether it be crewing, crossings, single-track running, expresses overtaking or anything else that could affect the on-time running of trains.

They've pushed a lot to the limits with this timetable change.  I was fully expecting some teething issues and people should also realise this without being too harsh to criticise.  QR will fine-tune as necessary. 

[STB]

I'm guessing on paper it may have appeared to be alright,

I think it's actually important to point out to people (mainly the complainers) that QR doesn't get an opportunity to do a test run of a new timetable.  Everything is "on paper", whether it be crewing, crossings, single-track running, expresses overtaking or anything else that could affect the on-time running of trains.

They've pushed a lot to the limits with this timetable change.  I was fully expecting some teething issues and people should also realise this without being too harsh to criticise.  QR will fine-tune as necessary. 

And that's a key point that gets mushed under by all the operational stuff that goes to tatters when something happens, like yesterday with those wayward truck drivers.

Planning and Operations are two very different beasts indeed, I know that first hand.

[STB]

Sorry, Bob, I don't think it's an improvement at all for Cleveland residents.  Is Transport trying to dictate to employers to start a staggered work schedule or what?

Hi Neen!

STB is our Redlands region spokesperson.  Please post the specific details of your concerns or message STB.

Thanks.

I'll PM you Neen, and work out something.

[BrizCommuter]

07:10am, 07:25am (both 3-car) from Ferny Grove, and 5:26pm from Central to Ferny Grove (6-car) all overcrowded today. Press seen taking photos at Bowen Hills overcrowded FG train.

[ozbob]

What where your pax load estimates?   A 6 car is rated to 1000 pax short duration ...  at a 1000 it is getting rather tight though .. lol

One morning, I assisted in the recovery of a pax who fainted on approach to Roma St, this was one of the Ippy Congestion Specials with around 1200 pax on board ...  those were the days my friends .. lol

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/sector-2-train-timetables-day-2-3-car.html
Sector 2 timetables - day 2 problems on the Ferny Grove Line.


In answer to your question Ozbob - the 7:10am was full in the last car (?70 passengers standing), but had some standing space in cars 1 and 2.

The 5:26pm had 60 standing passengers in car 4, and the other cars looked to be equally congested. A few passengers decided not to board at Bowen Hills. Lets hope they weren't trying to get to stations bypassed by the following train which ran express to Mitchelton, with the next train after that being 3-car and reported to be "crowded". Absolute disaster QR!

The big issue is of course that the schools and universities are not back yet, and will increase loads by at least 25%.

[STB]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/sector-2-train-timetables-day-2-3-car.html
Sector 2 timetables - day 2 problems on the Ferny Grove Line.


In answer to your question Ozbob - the 7:10am was full in the last car (?70 passengers standing), but had some standing space in cars 1 and 2.

The 5:26pm had 60 standing passengers in car 4, and the other cars looked to be equally congested. A few passengers decided not to board at Bowen Hills. Lets hope they weren't trying to get to stations bypassed by the following train which ran express to Mitchelton, with the next train after that being 3-car and reported to be "crowded". Absolute disaster QR!

The big issue is of course that the schools and universities are not back yet, and will increase loads by at least 25%.

From what I understand, the morning peak is maxed out in terms of rollingstock, so you might be out of luck there until 2016.  The PM Peak from what I have been told uses less units than the morning peak, so there may be room for one additional service at a guess.  I'd probably put in a 5:18pm train as a 3 car set, and make the 5:11pm train as a 6 car train, if the rollingstock is available, and they can position that correctly, given that it comes from Coopers Plains (the 5:11pm one).

Generally it will take a month for the patronage to even out so to speak as people start looking for other options with the additional trains, for the moment, people tend to catch the same timetabled service either out of necessity or out of habit.

Personally I wouldn't be too concerned yet, I'd wait until early February before I'd be asking questions if they can readjust the services or add in that 5:18pm one.

[HappyTrainGuy]

No offense but IMHO it sounds like you are blowing it way out of proportion.

[BrizCommuter]

No offense but IMHO it sounds like you are blowing it way out of proportion.

You don't think that full trains leaving passengers behind are an issue?

[STB]

No offense but IMHO it sounds like you are blowing it way out of proportion.

You don't think that full trains leaving passengers behind are an issue?

I'd be asking what are the services like before and after.  According to Queensland Rail, and my contacts who have the WTT, the only 3 car set scheduled is the 5:41pm.

Like I said, I'd hold off waiting until things settle down, the patronage adjusts and the QR staff readjust themselves to the new timetable.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It's the start of a new timetable. People still have their habbits of when to catch trains from the previous timetable. Some didn't know that new timetables have come into affect. Its the first proper look of the changes after several incidents yesterday. Give it time. Let people change. Let things settle down to have a real idea of the big picture.

The same applies for any network changes/reviews. Trains. Bus. Ferries.

[aldonius]

Lets hope they weren't trying to get to stations bypassed by the following train which ran express to Mitchelton, with the next train after that being 3-car and reported to be "crowded".

Express?

[Golliwog]

Lets hope they weren't trying to get to stations bypassed by the following train which ran express to Mitchelton, with the next train after that being 3-car and reported to be "crowded".

Express?

Yeah, operational issue apparently. I was on it from Central. It arrived late and a more than usual number of passengers got off (assume announcement may not have been made loudly at Roma St?) and the 6 car set left with less than a full seated load (not much less granted, but still space. Ran express to Mitchelton then stopped all stations. Interestingly the operational issue wasn't a timetable one as at FG crew swapped and it left as out of service.

What operational issue would have made that decision? I wouldn't have thought the 5 minutes difference would make a difference for a crew finishing their shift as if it's running out of service from Ferny they could easily make up time going non stop inbound. Making sure it ran 'on-time' to FG shouldn't have been a good enough reason to stuff passengers around either.

[STB]

Lets hope they weren't trying to get to stations bypassed by the following train which ran express to Mitchelton, with the next train after that being 3-car and reported to be "crowded".

Express?

Yeah, operational issue apparently. I was on it from Central. It arrived late and a more than usual number of passengers got off (assume announcement may not have been made loudly at Roma St?) and the 6 car set left with less than a full seated load (not much less granted, but still space. Ran express to Mitchelton then stopped all stations. Interestingly the operational issue wasn't a timetable one as at FG crew swapped and it left as out of service.

What operational issue would have made that decision? I wouldn't have thought the 5 minutes difference would make a difference for a crew finishing their shift as if it's running out of service from Ferny they could easily make up time going non stop inbound. Making sure it ran 'on-time' to FG shouldn't have been a good enough reason to stuff passengers around either.

Which one ran express? The 5:33pm?  If that was 5mins late that would've delayed the 5:41pm, which then would've delayed the 5:48pm.  If that's the one that ran express I'm not surprised it had to to provide clearance.

That 5:33pm also forms an empty after coming from FG, reducing the turnback time to just 4mins if it ran 5mins late.  Might be another reason why it ran express.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Southeast Queensland commuters angry as they're squeeze on smaller trains only to be delayed by timetable 'teething problems'

[ozbob]

2014 Queensland Rail Timetable launch

[ozbob]

Sunshine Coast Daily Letter of the day 22nd January 2014 click here!

Lack of regard for Coast train users

TRANSLINK has reviewed its train timetables and increased some Brisbane services, especially at peak hours.

This must be after much inconvenience to commuters and overcrowding in the past, especially at peak hour.

The Gold Coast will receive trains every 15 minutes, instead of half-hourly, as will many Brisbane lines.

What is most noticeable is the complete dismissal of any consideration of the Sunshine Coast line service.

What part of that doesn't TransLink understand? The lack of reliable and frequent services north of Brisbane, beyond Caboolture, seems to be disregarded and discounted.

Apparently, TransLink in their infinite wisdom and with much deliberation have considered all but the Sunshine Coast in their review of services.

To add insult to injury, the fares have increased yet another 7.5%. This, at a time when world oil supply has impacted our fuel price, is making escalating transport costs a luxury most cannot afford, but nevertheless, must endure.

The Sunshine Coast is a popular tourist destination as well as home to a million taxpayers, who deserve regular, affordable and reliable public transport.

TransLink decisions must be fair and equitable across all the south-east. Talk to a brickwall?

E. ROWE

Marcoola

[Derwan]

Sunshine Coast Daily Letter of the day 22nd January 2014 click here!

Lack of regard for Coast train users

I'm sure many of us here are facepalming at this.  As we know, Sunshine Coast was part of the timetable updates in 2011.  They even got an additional service as part of this timetable even though that sector wasn't part of the review.  Perhaps this should've been pointed out a bit better in the marketing.  I've seen a few from sector 1 lines complaining that they "missed out".

[ozbob]

Yes.  I have made the point to many journalists that Ipswich/Rosewood/Caboolture/Sunshine Coast/Springfield Central are sector one and that was bedded down in June 2011.  The letters are worthwhile though as it does point to a lack of clear comms on this point, and embedded is the fare fail ...

[Cam]

I just missed a service that departed Rocklea just before 8.44am this morning. At the time I wasn't sure if it was the 8.45am service, that I intended to catch, departing more than 1 minute early or the previous service running almost 14 minutes late.

The next service departed Rocklea at about 8.55am – almost 5 minutes before the next service was scheduled to depart. At the time I thought that perhaps services were running late.

However, when the service arrived at South Bank at about 9.10am, there was an announcement that it would be waiting at the platform for 4 minutes "to wait for the timetable to catch up".   

There certainly are some teething problems. Can someone please advise what guards/drivers use to tell the time? I use my phone which receives the time from the network & always seems to be correct to the second when I check it.

[Fares_Fair]

Sunshine Coast Daily Letter of the day 22nd January 2014 click here!

Lack of regard for Coast train users

I'm sure many of us here are facepalming at this.  As we know, Sunshine Coast was part of the timetable updates in 2011.  They even got an additional service as part of this timetable even though that sector wasn't part of the review.  Perhaps this should've been pointed out a bit better in the marketing.  I've seen a few from sector 1 lines complaining that they "missed out".

G'day Derwan,

I note your point regarding the sector 1 additions in June/July 2011.
I replied to the author and mentioned the sector 1 additional services - however back then we received a total (I think) of 4 new services, 3 in June then my 5:28pm one in July.
Can't recall if the Gympie North addition was part of that or not ... I need to check.

[freman]

(not sure this is the right place,  but...)

So, I'm not amused with the new timetables, I used to catch a 4:11 Caboolture Express from Toowong to Morayfield but this train is now a 4:11 3 car Nambor Express, this means 2/3rds of the train unloads at Roma St, waits up to 10 minutes for the Caboolture Express train to turn up before continuing their Journey.

I'm paying 7.5% more to get home later

Well not as of next week, if their plan was designed to make more seats available - they have succeeded, myself and my neighbor are carpooling, that's 2 free morning and afternoon seats.

[Arnz]

(not sure this is the right place,  but...)

So, I'm not amused with the new timetables, I used to catch a 4:11 Caboolture Express from Toowong to Morayfield but this train is now a 4:11 3 car Nambor Express, this means 2/3rds of the train unloads at Roma St, waits up to 10 minutes for the Caboolture Express train to turn up before continuing their Journey.

I'm paying 7.5% more to get home later

Well not as of next week, if their plan was designed to make more seats available - they have succeeded, myself and my neighbor are carpooling, that's 2 free morning and afternoon seats.

Hey,

Not sure if this would change your mind, but the next Caboolture express is at 4:24pm, a 6 minute wait tops and a 6-car unit (stopping all stations to Northgate, running express Northgate to Petrie then all stations Petrie to Caboolture). 

The new 4:24pm was the former 4:18pm (ex-Roma St) service, brought 6 minutes later to squeeze in the extra Nambour service.

http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/timetables/140120-caboolture.pdf

[DayboroStation]

Hey freman, I understand your frustration entirely. For years QR have had little regard for services running counterpeak on the Ipswich line, and then through the city.

The next Caboolture express (without having to change and wait at Roma Street) leaves Toowong at 4:41, but this is often switched to a Petrie all-stations train if it is any more than 3 minutes late by the time it leaves Milton Station. Not the ideal, but at least another option to consider.

I am actually surprised that none of the media outlets (to my knowledge) have picked up on the fact that seats on the Ipswich line have actually been REDUCED since the sector 2 timetables began this week - ie the 4:11 (mentioned above) now running as a 3-car service.

[ozbob]

Peak OTP yesterday ..

City Network Line   AM Peak Customer Impact   AM Peak Contractual   PM Peak Customer Impact   PM Peak Contractual   Combined Peaks Customer Impact   Combined Peaks Contractual

                        All lines   96.64 %   96.64 %   98.56 %   98.56 %   97.57 %   97.57 %
          Beenleigh   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Caboolture   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Cleveland   73.68 %   73.68 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %
          Doomben   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ferny Grove   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ipswich   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Shorncliffe   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Springfield   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Gold Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %   92.31 %   92.31 %
          Sunshine Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Rosewood   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %

[Cam]

Bob, is 5 minutes early classed as "on time"?

[BrizCommuter]

Peak OTP yesterday ..

City Network Line   AM Peak Customer Impact   AM Peak Contractual   PM Peak Customer Impact   PM Peak Contractual   Combined Peaks Customer Impact   Combined Peaks Contractual

                        All lines   96.64 %   96.64 %   98.56 %   98.56 %   97.57 %   97.57 %
          Beenleigh   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Caboolture   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Cleveland   73.68 %   73.68 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %
          Doomben   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ferny Grove   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ipswich   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Shorncliffe   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Springfield   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Gold Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %   92.31 %   92.31 %
          Sunshine Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Rosewood   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %

100% on the Ferny Grove Line. Try telling that to the passengers kicked off the 5:33pm to FG due to it running express past their stations!

Day 3 - the 07:10am 3-car unit had approx. 40 pax standing per carriage. Still doesn't bode well for increases in patronage over the next month. Didn't observe the 07:25am, but it is reported by QR staff to be worse than the 07:10am.

Due to delays this evening, took the bus home to avoid unscheduled express/3-car mayhem.

[ozbob]

Bob, is 5 minutes early classed as "on time"?

Cam from  http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Pages/PeakOn-TimeResults.aspx

Our on-time running performance targets are the most stringent in Australia. We aim to have more than 94.53% of our peak period services arrive within three minutes and 59 seconds of their scheduled time (5 minutes and 59 seconds on interurban services; ie Gold Coast, Rosewood and Nambour).

[ozbob]

3 car with 40 pax per car, 250 + 120 = 370, still well under 500 ...

That's what they will work on ..

[HappyTrainGuy]

I still say there's not much of an issue going by some of the numbers posted here. Sure some people might have to stand but its peak hour! It should be expected. Prior to the timetable changes the Caboolture line had alot of standees but it also had a lot of empty seats to the point where peak hour trains were arriving at Wooloowin/Albion/Bowen Hills with the 4 seat areas empty. Since the changes to a more unified pattern there are still sometimes empty seats on all stopper services arriving at Wooloowin and yet some people still choose to stand when boarding from far back as Geebung and Zillmere. Because of that its the reason why I also voice my opinion so much on cutting bus services between train stations and interchanges ie the 330.

I echo bobs comment above.

[BrizCommuter]

3 car with 40 pax per car, 250 + 120 = 370, still well under 500 ...

That's what they will work on ..

But as I keep mentioning, this is a quiet time of the year. This train will be full and leaving behind passengers in a few weeks time.

[Fares_Fair]

Peak OTP yesterday ..

City Network Line   AM Peak Customer Impact   AM Peak Contractual   PM Peak Customer Impact   PM Peak Contractual   Combined Peaks Customer Impact   Combined Peaks Contractual

                        All lines   96.64 %   96.64 %   98.56 %   98.56 %   97.57 %   97.57 %
          Beenleigh   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Caboolture   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Cleveland   73.68 %   73.68 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %
          Doomben   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ferny Grove   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Ipswich   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Shorncliffe   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Springfield   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Gold Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   85.71 %   85.71 %   92.31 %   92.31 %
          Sunshine Coast   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %
          Rosewood   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %   100.00 %

100% on the Ferny Grove Line. Try telling that to the passengers kicked off the 5:33pm to FG due to it running express past their stations!

Day 3 - the 07:10am 3-car unit had approx. 40 pax standing per carriage. Still doesn't bode well for increases in patronage over the next month. Didn't observe the 07:25am, but it is reported by QR staff to be worse than the 07:10am.

Due to delays this evening, took the bus home to avoid unscheduled express/3-car mayhem.

40 standees is moderate and in no way overcrowded.
How long do they stand for?

[ozbob]

3 car with 40 pax per car, 250 + 120 = 370, still well under 500 ...

That's what they will work on ..

But as I keep mentioning, this is a quiet time of the year. This train will be full and leaving behind passengers in a few weeks time.

They will monitor, and upgrade as needed I would expect. There maybe other services elsewhere that could be changed to 3 car etc.

The present rolling stock plan is based on the latest data from last year.  There may be some passenger movements in a few weeks as well.   I wouldn't be too fussed at this time, it will be sorted.

[Arnz]

As DayboroStation outlined, the Springfield line lost a 3-car set in the Sector 2 TT changes (replaced with the 3-car Springfield to Nambour PM peak service).   

As I've outlined earlier, the earlier Nambour services were better candidates to be 'right-sized to 3-car' with the express stopping pattern changed for crowd management (4:00pm would've been the better suited candidate with the 2 new Caboolture services introduced on both sides of the service).

[Golliwog]

Which one ran express? The 5:33pm?  If that was 5mins late that would've delayed the 5:41pm, which then would've delayed the 5:48pm.  If that's the one that ran express I'm not surprised it had to to provide clearance.

That 5:33pm also forms an empty after coming from FG, reducing the turnback time to just 4mins if it ran 5mins late.  Might be another reason why it ran express.

Yeah the 5:33pm service was expressed. Turnback isn't an issue as with the new timetables they appear to be using crew swaps during peak (haven't observed offpeak) at Ferny Grove. I guess if each crew is only stepping back 1 service then there may have been issues with them taking over the following service in terms of required break time etc?

What is the smallest headway possible on the Ferny Grove line, the following 5:41pm service may have been a little close behind the late running 5:33pm service and thus perhaps get delays from running on yellows/waiting for a platform to clear but I can't see that then also delaying the 5:48pm service.

======================
In other news, I think QR need to work a little on platform assignments at FG in both peaks. It only causes a small delay but as every second service in the AM peak is formed from a dead running service, they tend to arrive at FG in pairs with the out of service unit/s tailing the in service one. The issue arises as the 1st in service train will pull into P1 and unload. The 1st out of service train will then come into P2. 1st in service train leaves. 1st out of service train leaves and by the timetable, the next outbound in service train is typically held at the signal just outbound of the first bend (clear of both level crossings) while the inbound train blocks both platforms as it uses the crossovers and the outbound service typically doesn't start moving until the inbound service has pulled level with it. It may only be a matter of minutes or less, but as far as I can see this would be removed if the platforms they were assigned when coming in were switched so that the crossovers are clear when the 2nd in service outbound train is arriving.

Not sure if this same issue can be fixed in the PM peak with a similar method but it should be looked at.

[BrizCommuter]

More on the lack of trains issue.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/the-lack-of-trains-problem.html

[Stillwater]

ICE train sets unsuitable for suburban line runs, requiring frequent stopping.  They are best suited to the runs they are used for now -- up the Coast, with approx. 10 mins between stations.

[#Metro]

There is another option. Rip out more seats and make the seating plan New York Style.
Queenslanders want a seat, well, then you'll just be left behind. 

[freman]

Not sure if this would change your mind, but the next Caboolture express is at 4:24pm, a 6 minute wait tops and a 6-car unit (stopping all stations to Northgate, running express Northgate to Petrie then all stations Petrie to Caboolture). 

The next Caboolture express (without having to change and wait at Roma Street) leaves Toowong at 4:41, but this is often switched to a Petrie all-stations train if it is any more than 3 minutes late by the time it leaves Milton Station. Not the ideal, but at least another option to consider.

Yes, these trains exist... but it still amounts to me paying more for less, I get home later using those, 20-30 minutes doesn't seem like much but I'm already out of my house working or travelling to work for 12 hours a day, I'm not willing to sacrifice more time. I spent weeks negotiating the 30 minute lunch times that let me go home at 4pm. it's a 50 km trip it shouldn't take an hour and 10 minutes.

Ideally I'd find a way to shave 15 minutes out of my work day and catch the 3:56... but that's not going to happen.

We're pretty much confirmed, we're carpooling, it's definitely cheaper (little Suzuki), and much more convenient.