Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[STB]

Looks good.  Noticed a few minor errors - 'Kinesellas Road' is now known as 'Mango Hill East', 'Kelvin Grove' is actually 'QUT Kelvin Grove' officially, and 'RBH' is actually 'RBCH' aka, Royal Brisbane Childrens Hospital.

[ozbob]

The Childrens is moving over to the Mater site.

Officially it is RBWH  http://www.health.qld.gov.au/rbwh/

[paulg]

Map update news: I've done all the minor things, like colours and stopping patterns.

Here it is!

Excellent work, Alex. While I like the white centre lines, I think I would prefer an indication of frequency by changing the station dots - that way you could include representation of 15min frequency from Darra to Roma Street.

Cheers, Paul

[aldonius]

Thankyou everybody for your kind words of encouragement!

... and for your error catching - there's a reason why this is version zero.

So don't go printing it out just yet!

Regarding alternate dot styles: I do have one (coloured centre with white ring), but it's less legible, especially against the Coast/Airport gold. Pity; it'd make Darra-RomaSt work much nicer.
Edit: here's my draft station dots/frequency representation so you can see what I mean.

Regarding showing the combined frequency out to Darra - what, the doubling-up of lines and stations doesn't do that? I'll put another note in the text of version one.

[#Metro]

I'm trying to make a frequent network map. Would I be able to have a copy of the source file?

LD

[aldonius]

Fixed all the errors STB found and a couple more   --  Revision 1 pdf here.

Inkscape SVG for Lapdog and others to have a go with here.

LD, if you're trying to get the entire frequent system on one map, I can tell you now that this map isn't going to serve you well as a base - it's far too cramped in the centre..

[nathandavid88]

The Childrens is moving over to the Mater site.

Officially it is RBWH  http://www.health.qld.gov.au/rbwh/

I think the stop STB is referring to is the busway stop down near Victoria Park Golf Course, which is labelled as "RCH Herston"

[STB]

@aldonis - SurfRail has found another minor error - 'Gold Coast Hospital' is now known as 'Nerang Street' apparently (I wasn't aware of the name change myself).

Also I'm in two minds over whether 'Upper Mt Gravatt' should be 'Upper Mt Gravatt (Garden City)' which I think is technically the actual name of the busway station IIRC.

The Childrens is moving over to the Mater site.

Officially it is RBWH  http://www.health.qld.gov.au/rbwh/

I think the stop STB is referring to is the busway stop down near Victoria Park Golf Course, which is labelled as "RCH Herston"

That's correct.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

While I like the white centre lines, I think I would prefer an indication of frequency by changing the station dots

Seconded. Best to make the station markers more prominent on the "high frequency" stretches, whilst keeping them distinguishable from interchange points.

If you're trying to get the entire frequent system on one map, I can tell you now that this map isn't going to serve you well as a base - it's far too cramped in the centre

That's also a problem with using a scale map as a base, obviously—unless you apply "fisheye lens distortion" to it first. (GIMP allows this from a JPG.) Just a possibility.

[aldonius]

All right, off we go. Version 2 fixes what hopefully is the last of the station-name bugs. Version 2A has inverted the frequent stations. Version 2B inverts the frequent stations and removes the pinstripe.

Incidentally, this could probably be shunted off into its own thread.

[STB]

Hmm, I prefer version 2A.  The white line plus the coloured dots make the 15min frequency corridors stand out better IMO.

Not sure if it is needed on the Milton to Darra section of track, I'd hazard a guess that a 15min frequency is obvious with two lines servicing it?

EDIT: Just noticed you still have 'Nerang Hospital' on the GCRT section, instead of 'Nerang Street'.

[aldonius]

2A it is then going forward, unless outcry occurs to the contrary.

Fixed the Nerang Street bug for Version 2a-1, otherwise identical to 2A.

[Gazza]

What reason is there for not showing the pinstripe to Darra?

[James]

What reason is there for not showing the pinstripe to Darra?

I'm assuming it is due to combined 15 minute frequency, and not 15 min frequency on either Ipswich or Springfield lines.

But I like 2A most.

[Gazza]

Does a casual user really care about that distinction though?

I mean, if we are going to describe that in those terms, its not really a 15 min frequency to Cannon hill, rather a combined 15 min frequency of cannon hill and cleveland trains.

[aldonius]

The good news is that I have version three done, and apart from the separate boxes for the keys, it's the first one out of everything ever that I've gotten over the 'happy with' threshold...

I got Dutton Park Place working! So hongsetoufaren and anybody else who suggested shifting Dutton Park, give yourselves a cookie.

The bad news is that I have exam study to do, so that's the end of the line for now, absent anything which is both egregiously wrong and under a minute actual editing time to fix.

So here's the latest 'clean' source file [Inkscape SVG], if you want major changes in the next couple weeks it's DIY 
And here's the PDF of that same cleaner version. (Clean version means smaller info box and no changelog).

[SurfRail]

Excellent work. 

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament Hansard Questions without notice
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2013/2013_10_31_DAILY.pdf

31st October 2013

Public Transport
Mr SHUTTLEWORTH: My question without notice is to the Minister for Transport and Main Roads. Could the minister please outline the benefits of the new rail timetable and how this aligns with the Newman government's objective to make public transport more affordable, reliable and frequent?
Madam SPEAKER: Order! I call the Minister for Transport and Main Roads. You have one minute.
Mr EMERSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker—
Mr Newman: How about you apologise?
Mr EMERSON: I do want to apologise for Labor—
Mr Newman: Are you sorry?
Mr EMERSON:—not putting this in place, because it is an extraordinary situation, Premier. I heard the Leader of the Opposition claim the other day that she was going to do this in 2011 but forgot about it. Now she wants to claim credit for something that we will be doing on 20 January next year. Three years later she wants to claim credit for something she forgot to do. This is a great result. The member for Ferny Grove has already seen what a great result we have had in increasing off-peak services in his area and the great growth in passenger numbers from doing that. What we announced the other day, colleagues, was 200 additional daily services on our rail system starting on 20 January.
Mr Crandon interjected.
Mr EMERSON: I take the interjection from the member for Coomera. It is a great result for the Gold Coast as well.
(Time expired)
Madam SPEAKER: Order! The time for questions has expired.

[minbrisbane]

Wow... he really is the most vile man.  I can't bear it.  I'm glad I'm off to China tomorrow, I'll be behind the firewall for a month. 

[Gazza]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-06/new-train-timetables-mean-longer-journeys/2747650

Haha just found this gem from Mr Emmerson

But Opposition spokesman Scott Emerson says a reduction in express services will mean longer journeys for some passengers.

"If you're on the Sunshine Coast, your daily trip could be up to 30 minutes longer and even in some other areas like Corinda or Toowong in Brisbane, you're going to missing out on some of those services you previously had and that's going to make your journey longer," he said.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Seems like a lot has changed. The best parts that I see are the express services removed from the Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove lines, Coopers plains being removed from the Gold Coast line and the obvious frequency improvements. Now to get the bus network to make the best of the new rail network.

Key notes:
- trains from Cannon Hill will turnback at Northgate (really did not expect that!)
- Doomben to Roma Street shuttle
- Beenleigh expresses are gone!
- As expected, Shorncliffe and Ferny Grove expresses are gone as well!
- The connections have been fixed at Park Road, which is fantastic news!
- There's a train every 15mins Monday to Friday from the get go on the Ferny Grove line
- Cleveland trains will run express Manly to Morningside and then stop all stations to Shorncliffe (cross overs back to Wellington Pt instead of Thorneside)
- There are two additional Sunshine Coast trains, 1 departing at 5:07am ex Nambour, and 1 departing Roma Street at 4:22pm for the afternoon peak.
- The Gold Coast trains will be running every 30mins until late at night, instead of the hourly service now.

Having trains turnaround at Northgate isn't really that unexpected to be honest. The Doomben-Roma Street shuttle has been on the cards since the first timetable review. Good riddens to those express trains. It was stupid having them taking up paths just to bypass a handful of stops for a marginal time gain. Great to see service increases and frequency boosts.

More trains and faster frequency welcomed, but the push back of the departure of the Gympie North service ex Central at 5.51pm weekdays means a longer run home for those travelling to the end of the line at Gympie North.

Then catch the TT which leaves earlier?

They must've paid Airtrain some $$ to have the trains stop at Albion and Wooloowin

I reckon. I know they had been issues in the past when it came to negating their contract in regards to its stopping pattern.

Speaking of connections, I thought I'd have a look at the horrible ones from the Caboolture Line to the Shorncliffe Line and vice versa.

At the moment, heading from the Caboolture Line to the Shorncliffe Line during off-peak, you've got a change-over of 2 minutes - probably JUST enough for an able-bodied person to make their way over to platform 2.  From 20 January, the chang-over is 24 minutes.

Currently the Caboolture-City service arrives at Nundah for the cross with the City-Shorncliffe service and that's after the famous dwell that the Caboolture-City services have at Northgate.

[techblitz]

Had a chat with ron degraaf this afternoon ....we both just happened to be hopping on the train @ valley and got off @ central 

Let him know about the long queues at the valley ticket machine at peak and would it be possible to get a second machine in there. He said he will look into it 


I guess the really good thing with ron is he was @ darra attending/monitoring things for the incident Wednesday last. Ron was also out and about chatting to staff at both valley and central stations today. He echoed what FF has said and that there has been a big attitude change in QR since glen dawe came in. Said he was very excited about sector 2 of course. I couldn't help it & just casually mentioned that some fellow RBOT members were discussing the idea of trains stopping @ altandi and were quite surprised but happy that this was actually implemented 

[skippy]

For me the sector 2 was an unexpected surprise - congratulations to all involved.  Putting extra services on the system will test for the infrastructure such as the flat junctions at Park Rd and Eagle Junction. Will be a challenge to maintain the on time running, however much better to sweat the asset with more services and lose some reliability.

[BrizCommuter]

It's been a long time coming, but here is BrizCommuter's detailed review of the sector 2 timetables.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-draft-timetables-detailed.html

There will be a future blog post also looking in more detail at the Gold Coast/Beenleigh problem, and "2,3,5".

[#Metro]

Brizcommuter, what can be done about Gold Coast line? Would installing extra crossovers in strategic locations assist, and if so where?

[BrizCommuter]

Brizcommuter, what can be done about Gold Coast line? Would installing extra crossovers in strategic locations assist, and if so where?

More overtaking tracks in the answer! It will cost $$$ to significantly increase "suburbans" capacity from the South.

[James]

In terms of peak-hour frequency increases, GC line would need:
- More stabling at Robina
- More rolling stock
- A third track Kuraby - Bethania/Beenleigh
- Duplication Helensvale-Coomera
In terms of off-peak, GC line would need:
- 4th track Salisbury to Kuraby

[Gazza]

The good thing is it seems like Salisbury to Kuraby was done with provision for a 4th track in mind, though strangely Coopers Plains and Kuraby seem like they would need the most work (Eg car park demolition) to get a 4th track through.


http://i.imgur.com/b8ufDFG.jpg

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-train-timetables-more-on.html
More on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast Line corridor, which deserves its own blog post.

Edit:
To run (based around sector 2 patterns) consistent 8tph Gold Coast peak service, there would need to be duplication between Helensvale & Coomera, more stabling, and more trains. To run counter-peak/off-peak Gold Coast & Beenleigh services at 4tph each in addition to the above, there would need to be a triplication around Holmsview to Edens Landing, and quadruplication between Park Rd to Yeerongpilly and Altandi to Fruitgrove. I think. Apologies if I'm wrong.

The sector 2 timetables appear to written for up to 24tph through the CBD. That'll be another blog post.

[James]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-train-timetables-more-on.html
More on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast Line corridor, which deserves its own blog post.

Edit:
To run (based around sector 2 patterns) consistent 8tph Gold Coast peak service, there would need to be duplication between Helensvale & Coomera, more stabling, and more trains. To run counter-peak/off-peak Gold Coast & Beenleigh services at 4tph each in addition to the above, there would need to be a triplication around Holmsview to Edens Landing, and quadruplication between Park Rd to Yeerongpilly and Altandi to Fruitgrove. I think. Apologies if I'm wrong.

The sector 2 timetables appear to written for up to 24tph through the CBD. That'll be another blog post.

From your blog:

The additional inbound Gold Coast Line services appear to overtake Beenleigh Line services by running on "wrong direction" between Holmview and Eden's Landing, which requires both services to be bang on schedule.

They overtake by the Beenleigh line train stopping at Bethania and waiting for the I/B Gold Coast train to pass. Even more unreliable - you'd probably just hold an O/B train if you had the inbound train wrong-roading. I expect to see some GC trains ending up having to follow reds to Kuraby should they run late.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-train-timetables-more-on.html
More on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast Line corridor, which deserves its own blog post.

Edit:
To run (based around sector 2 patterns) consistent 8tph Gold Coast peak service, there would need to be duplication between Helensvale & Coomera, more stabling, and more trains.

Agree, however 8t/hr is not required now or for many years to come, so a moot point. 4t/hr clock face is the next step for the GC.

Where did BrizCommuter state that the 8tph was required now?
Until the duplication occurs, the Gold Coast Line will have to live with 7.5/7.5/15 mins peak pattern,which is not optimal.

[SurfRail]

Long term, the plan should be to put in four tracks from Dutton Park to Kuraby, with a realignment between Coopers Plains and Runcorn under Beenleigh Rd (which would eliminate Runcorn, Altandi, Sunnybank and Banoon stations in favour of a single station at Pinelands Rd, and all LXs from Boundary Rd to the Runcorn station one inclusive).

If the current iteration of the "Brisbane Underground" goes ahead the way I suspect it might, Dutton Park would be closed because the tracks would dive after Fairfield to new platforms under Park Road, so there is a bit more time saved.  Four tracks on the surface is very tight in places though, which no doubt was a motivating factor for putting the CRR portal at Yeerongpilly.

I am not convinced more tracks are needed south of Kuraby, however there is plenty of scope for long-term realignment through the Logan Central area between say Compton Rd and Kingston station to squeeze a few extra minutes out of the journey time.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-train-timetables-more-on.html
More on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast Line corridor, which deserves its own blog post.

Edit:
To run (based around sector 2 patterns) consistent 8tph Gold Coast peak service, there would need to be duplication between Helensvale & Coomera, more stabling, and more trains.

Agree, however 8t/hr is not required now or for many years to come, so a moot point. 4t/hr clock face is the next step for the GC.

Where did BrizCommuter state that the 8tph was required now?
Until the duplication occurs, the Gold Coast Line will have to live with 7.5/7.5/15 mins peak pattern,which is not optimal.

Hi,
What do mean by 7.5/7.5/15min?

Well have a look at the sector 2 Gold Coast peak timetable (or my blog post), and you'll see what I mean.
(OK, in the timetable it's 7/8/15min)

[BrizCommuter]

Essentially, the Gold Coast Line can only manage 6tph, in a repeating 7/8/15/7/8/15 pattern. An extra train can be fitted into alternate 15 minute cycles. However, an extra train cannot be fitted into consecutive 15 minute cycles (for 8tph), so as to allow a reverse peak train to traverse the single track section between Coomera and Helensvale every 30 mins.

Whilst Gold Coast Line capacity has been increased by 50% in parts of the peak, it should also be remembered that more passengers will now use it (due to stops at Loganlea (picking up savvy outer Beenleigh Line pax), Altandi, and Park Road. Thus the services after the 15 minute gaps may well get busier than at present, whilst the services after 7/8 min gaps will become quieter. This will result in uneven loadings, which QR will ultimately have to manage in some way - that'll be another blog post!

Given the current ridiculous fares, 8tph will not be required for some time, but it may be required sooner than you think. It will be very interesting to see how the new timetable will affect loadings on the Gold Coast Line once things have settled down.

[BrizCommuter]

I have produced a excel graph and table of a train diagram that has 15min from GC, BL and KU (total of 12t/hr) and also allows 8t/hr from CL.
I've only done nth bound for suburbans at the stage by the design basis would apply to south bound

Criteria
- Using existing trackage, but requires a 4th track between Kuraby and Sals
- Does not require duplication of Coomera - Helensvale and only section where trains face each other on same track
- Is not clockface at Kuraby, Kuraby starters leave 5min behind BL train
- BL trains miss a few stops in the upper section to speed up and provide a nice slot with CL, so about 7min ahead of KU trains on arrival to Park Road
-  GC drops Coppers Plains
- Under normal conditions does not require use of the DG to Sth Brisbane but could be used for nth bound to enable less conflicts at the PR cross overs (same as Platform 3 usage provides now)
- At least 3min gap when an express arrives at the Quad to pass a local.
- 15min on GC feeds 15min to AP
- Assume either 15min BL or KU feeds FG line
- Other could feed say SC.
- CL would feed an upgraded Doomben line + turn back at BH until Trouts Rds is built in long distant future.

In summary for the cost of ~10km of track for the Quad (platforms not needed if dedicated for GC trains), we have 12t/hr on the south line each way with 4t/hr to BL, KU and GC. This would have to be considered a cheap upgrade for a major capacity boost.

To extend the KU starters/terminators south of Kuraby on 15min with GC on 15min, you need 4 tracks. Potentially the plan could be to extend to Bethania and onto the Logan Village branch. (+2030). However 4 x 6 car set trains per hour from Kuraby nth allows 4000 people per hour + 4000 per hour on BL trains + 4000 per hour on GC trains. Thats 12,000 people per hour or about 18,000 to 24,000 over the morning peak.

You could jam in another 1 train every 15min from either BL/GC or CL branches, but a 2nd river crossing of sorts connected to the Quad really boosts capacity big time.

If you want a copy of the excel file, PM me.

Surely a more useful exercise would to map out the sector 2 timetables, as these are planned as a base timetable for some time, and then work out what infrastructure would be required for service enhancements. Mapping out an alternative timetable, whilst interesting, is really a moot point.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/sector-2-train-timetables-designed-for.html
Are the sector 2 train timetables designed for 24tph?

[aldonius]

Incidentally, map v4 is done.

[SurfRail]

Incidentally, map v4 is done.

We have seriously got to see if somebody at TransLink will agree to adopt this.

One more tiny quibble - can we replace the airport station '#' with something more appropriate, eg a dollar sign icon on the CityRail map immediately pre-Sydney Trains?  I'd also get rid of the pointless guff about who runs the line and just have something very simply saying airport fares are non-TransLink and leave it at that.

[Gazza]

For fun, do you reckon it's worth doing a future proof version with UBAT in it?

Also, Sandgate still needs its disabled symbol in v4.

[aldonius]

Funny you should mention UBAT...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7243561/seq_transit_maps/UBAT/quickndirty.pdf

SurfRail, you may be interested to know that (as far as I can tell) Transit Graphics is responsible for the system map. (see the flash widget on this page)

Re: Sandgate: will fix. Re: Airtrain: stopped caring, won't fix