Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[Gazza]

No worries, presumably you'll be making the cleveland line dark blue and Richlands line light blue, and the doomben line purple?
Don't forget new blue wheelchair icons at Ferny Grove, Narangba and Shorncliffe by the way.

If you wanted to represent 15 minute services, in the dot for each station, draw a 1/4 pie shape (Sort of like the old Go Network logo from the bus review...RIP)

Anyhow, once you post this, you should pass it on to QR and Translink (perhaps with a markup of the old network map showing its mistakes)

[STB]

Also the new map is up.

http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/travel-information/service-updates/train-network-review/network-map-qr.png

They seem to have been very lazy with it though, a couple of extra unnecessary circles at South Brisbane and South Bank, also it might've made more sense to have the Springfield line to the right of the Ipswich line rather than the left (especially if it ends up connecting with Moreton Bay Rail in the future which would make sense with sectorisation)

May also have been good to note where services are every 15 minutes from.

Looks like a kindergarten kid did it!  Where's the busway services, the zones etc?  That's shocking!

[James]

Looks as though Gold Coast trains will definitely be using platform 4 at Park Road, I don't think there's a way not to get them to use it in peak, and I also saw them doing some work on it today...

They can switch to the Down Main at Yeerongpilly - when I caught the current 5:59pm Varsity - Airport service, it switched to the down main at Yeerongpilly, and ran express past P3 at Park Road.

But if this is genuinely happening, that in itself is worthy of celebration. Might be worthy of an early-morning trip sometime in order to be one of the first to use Park Road P4. About damn time!

I was just looking at the two, honestly the Translink one sucks! Bigtime!

- Clayfield is poorly located
- Cab and Nth coast lines are one and misleading on stopping pattern
- Springfield looks like a city shuttle

- Springfiled could have been connected to nth side as seperate colour and a dotted MBRL branch with an expected opening date (nothing like a bit of advertising and promotion)
- The Sunny coast services should have been marked as a seperate line as well also representing the typical stopping pattern

How to represent stations that get 15min or better most of the time, either
- a thicker line
or
- coloured station dot

The biggest flaw is that it is too light on the information. Aside from not showing 15 minute frequency, it doesn't show zone, DDA compliance etc.

Sunshine Coast Line also needs its own dedicated line on the map, as does MBRL (promotional only).

[aldonius]

Proposed changes I've seen, and some thoughts of my own:

• Showing the Sunshine Coast line express running. Poses the questions: what to do with Rosewood, and why add yet another line through the CBD? Also the minor problem of a colour - orange, perhaps, now that Sky Blue is taken?
• Railbuses (apart from SC) will get the flick, as per previous discussions people have had. Also, I'll switch to a side tick there in order to do...
• 15-min stations: RTT gets a cookie! Just flip the fill/stroke for the relevant stations on the relevant lines. Now instead of filled 'stations' representing buses they represent frequency! I had a brief play with the 1/4 pie, but I think it'd be too fussy at low resolution. Central section symbols (black stroke) can stay as they are. Incidentally, the line spacing presently is such that the hollow circles overlap - hence why the black rings extend right out to Darra.
• Personally, I don't think having lines of multiple thicknesses running parallel looks good, at least for the central sections. For expresses, during their run, is another matter entirely.
• Extend the coloured busway line to Chermside & Carindale like with Springwood (cheers SR)
• New colour probably needed for GCRT also.
• Generally spacing out the inner city a bit more, especially around Park Rd.
• Speaking of spacing, there are major stuctural issues with the Light Rail. So many stations, so little space. As far as I can tell, the best thing would be to (gulp) detach the Sunshine Coast Line north of Nambour to shift everything north of Beenleigh up and stretch the Gold Coast out so Helensvale lines up with GCRT. This has its own problems, like where do you put the SC line then, and Ferny being in the middle of the main key.
• Alternatively the Gold Coast could detach, but I'd much rather put the 'disruption' onto the less-used line.


•   Nuke everything from orbit, including general style, and start from scratch. Say with... hexagonal stations, and lines sharing a service pattern sharing a single line. Those lines' width varying by service intensity, and the entire line having stripes running across it proportional to each individual line's share of the services...  (Yes, I have actually done this.)

[minbrisbane]

Also the new map is up.

http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/travel-information/service-updates/train-network-review/network-map-qr.png

They seem to have been very lazy with it though, a couple of extra unnecessary circles at South Brisbane and South Bank, also it might've made more sense to have the Springfield line to the right of the Ipswich line rather than the left (especially if it ends up connecting with Moreton Bay Rail in the future which would make sense with sectorisation)

May also have been good to note where services are every 15 minutes from.

Holy oh my gosh + other expletives.  That's a disgraceful and disgusting effort. 

A kindergartner could actually do better.

[minbrisbane]

•   Nuke everything from orbit, including general style, and start from scratch. Say with... hexagonal stations, and lines sharing a service pattern sharing a single line. Those lines' width varying by service intensity, and the entire line having stripes running across it proportional to each individual line's share of the services...  (Yes, I have actually done this.)

I'd be keen to see what that looks like.

[aldonius]

I'd be keen to see what that looks like.

Ask and ye shall receive.

[Arnz]

Further to the Sunshine Coast Line suggestion on the map, the Sunshine Coast Line should be shown separately with the common express pattern of Northgate to Caboolture, stopping only at Petrie.   Seeing that Sky Blue is now taken by Springfield, perhaps the Sunshine Coast Line could be labelled Black proper (per current TransLink website keys)

Also,  a accompanying note should also state that the Gympie North trains run express between Bowen Hills and Caboolture (and v.v), and that Nambour services in peak may run differently to the stopping pattern shown on this map, see the Sunshine Coast timetable for details.

[Gazza]

Also the minor problem of a colour - orange, perhaps, now that Sky Blue is taken?

Orange is used by the Eastern/UQ Busway.

Lime green/Chartreuse?
Brown?
Maroon?
Rose/Pink?

[Stillwater]

Maybe a different coloured dot (other than white) to depict a bus transfer station.

[aldonius]

OK, so I'm thinking dark grey for SC line, which is really what TL have it as anyway, not black. I'm saving black for the north south subway  .

Stillwater, for bus transfer stations - are you thinking of things like North Lakes and Maroochydore, or of train stations with a significant bus interchange? The former is definitely something worth attempting to integrate into the system map, along with their major connector routes. As for train stations - almost everything has some bus going past it...

[minbrisbane]

I'd be keen to see what that looks like.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Thank you!

[Gazza]

Forgive my ignorance, but if South Bank and South Bris make do with only 3 platforms, whydoes park rd need 4?

[SurfRail]

^ The way we are going it looks like it might be a non-issue anyway.  Depends on whether any trains will be continuing to operate via the Merivale Bridge from south of Park Road.  The new whizz-bang Brisbane Underground will determine the future need for this stretch.

[Gazza]

Regardless, What they've done at Park Road 4 is install rubber combs along the platform edge that are about 10cm wide and deep. Presumably you'd be able to stand on the edge and they'd easily support your weight, but if a train like the XPT comes past and it's kinematic envelope wobbles enough to brush the comb, the "fins" will harmlessly bend slighty and bounce back into place once the train has passed.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1gq53meepkbbvo/20131024_130935.jpg?m


https://www.dropbox.com/s/nkjbim3tdvonga1/20131024_131004.jpg


https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vpjcb2mferu2b4/20131024_130952.jpg

[ozbob]

^ thanks Gazza for that.  Marvellous ...

[nathandavid88]

So does this mean that Platform 4 will actually be used now?

[Gazza]

So does this mean that Platform 4 will actually be used now?

Cant imagine why else they would have an army of 10 blokes in orange down there completing the works today!

[nathandavid88]

So does this mean that Platform 4 will actually be used now?

Cant imagine why else they would have an army of 10 blokes in orange down there completing the works today!

That was more of a rhetorical question, but good call all the same Gazza!   

Such a simple but effective solution, I wonder why it's taken QR this long to do it.

[STB]

Forgive my ignorance, but if South Bank and South Bris make do with only 3 platforms, whydoes park rd need 4?

First issue, if you are on the DG cominf from south, you cannot access Plat 3 and historically Plat 4 was not fit for use.

But overall, I feel the whole route from Sth Brisbane to Park Rd and DG beyond is a Cock_up of biblical proportions and wasn't right from the start. If we go back to the late 70's it was I believe just two tracks. Then they added the DG for the GC traffiic which I believe was supposed to be a 1hr express with the odd other service in peak.

Roll the dice forward to today and for outbound traffic the DG is not efficent to use as it requires crosing paths and cross overs back to the main line are long spaced. If you look at I think the Eastern Line out of Mel it has 3 tracks and the middle track is very much a passing line with frequent cross overs and no crossing of paths required. It works how a 3 track line should work.

For Sth Brisbane and Sth bank, they have 3 platforms, but they don't work well. The number of south bound trains using platform 3 would be much lower than nth bound because its not convient operationally for QR and causes problems with pax who nominally got o Plat 1. Out of all the trips I have done on GC trains, there is probably a handfull if that that I have caught south on the DG.

Give me about $500m and you could fix the route up so it works alot more efficently using tripple and Quad track where there is space. Park Rd station is half the problem with its historic location. It needs to be moved nth about 200-400m off the bend.

Having an active platform 4 I think is a waste of time at Park Road, simply because the line goes down to three tracks and then down to two, not much bang for buck unless you continued that 4th track all the way through to the city.

[Gazza]

If platform 3 was inacessible from the DG, why didn't they just put in a set of points south of Park Road?

[nathandavid88]

Forgive my ignorance, but if South Bank and South Bris make do with only 3 platforms, whydoes park rd need 4?

First issue, if you are on the DG cominf from south, you cannot access Plat 3 and historically Plat 4 was not fit for use.

But overall, I feel the whole route from Sth Brisbane to Park Rd and DG beyond is a Cock_up of biblical proportions and wasn't right from the start. If we go back to the late 70's it was I believe just two tracks. Then they added the DG for the GC traffiic which I believe was supposed to be a 1hr express with the odd other service in peak.

Roll the dice forward to today and for outbound traffic the DG is not efficent to use as it requires crosing paths and cross overs back to the main line are long spaced. If you look at I think the Eastern Line out of Mel it has 3 tracks and the middle track is very much a passing line with frequent cross overs and no crossing of paths required. It works how a 3 track line should work.

For Sth Brisbane and Sth bank, they have 3 platforms, but they don't work well. The number of south bound trains using platform 3 would be much lower than nth bound because its not convient operationally for QR and causes problems with pax who nominally got o Plat 1. Out of all the trips I have done on GC trains, there is probably a handfull if that that I have caught south on the DG.

Give me about $500m and you could fix the route up so it works alot more efficently using tripple and Quad track where there is space. Park Rd station is half the problem with its historic location. It needs to be moved nth about 200-400m off the bend.

Having an active platform 4 I think is a waste of time at Park Road, simply because the line goes down to three tracks and then down to two, not much bang for buck unless you continued that 4th track all the way through to the city.

Weren't the LNP planning to add a fourth platform at South Bank & South Brisbane as part of their plan to delay the Merivale reaching capacity? Or has that idea been scratched?

[petey3801]

If platform 3 was inacessible from the DG, why didn't they just put in a set of points south of Park Road?

Too easy, too logical. It is possible to go from the DG to p3 in the Up direction, but not possible in the Down direction. Last crossover for that is at Y'pilly.

What Shane said is also the exact reason why the triple from Salisbury to Kuraby really isn't all that useful. For it to be of much use at all, it really needed to be like the Caboolture line with the middle road being the express etc. track.

[Derwan]

They've fixed the station name for the peak/off-peak frequencies on the Cleveland Line.

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-notices/611/details

[James]

If platform 3 was inacessible from the DG, why didn't they just put in a set of points south of Park Road?

There is a lot of space between the two tracks, and some height separation between the two lines between Dutton Park and Park Road P3/4.

If platform 3 was inacessible from the DG, why didn't they just put in a set of points south of Park Road?

Too easy, too logical. It is possible to go from the DG to p3 in the Up direction, but not possible in the Down direction. Last crossover for that is at Y'pilly.

What Shane said is also the exact reason why the triple from Salisbury to Kuraby really isn't all that useful. For it to be of much use at all, it really needed to be like the Caboolture line with the middle road being the express etc. track.

It's really not that bad. Just need points connecting to the Up Main at Yeerongpilly.
(Please remember 'Up' is going to the Gold Coast in this case, and 'Down' is towards Bowen Hills!  )

The DG, in my opinion, is an underutilised piece of infrastructure, which could be used so much better if used correctly.

[achiruel]

One piece of (IMO) poor planning in the new Sector II timetables.

First i/b Beenleigh train misses connection with first o/b Doomben train by 1 minute.

That means a 29 minute wait for anyone wanting to get from Beenleigh line to Doomben line.

This continues most of the day, except during peaks where Beenleigh frequency goes up to 15 minutes or better so wait is reduced.  But interpeak it's still a 29 minute wait.

[BrizCommuter]

One piece of (IMO) poor planning in the new Sector II timetables.

First i/b Beenleigh train misses connection with first o/b Doomben train by 1 minute.

That means a 29 minute wait for anyone wanting to get from Beenleigh line to Doomben line.

This continues most of the day, except during peaks where Beenleigh frequency goes up to 15 minutes or better so wait is reduced.  But interpeak it's still a 29 minute wait.

Not poor planning. Not every line can connect well with every other line. Given that the Doomben Line is the least used line, and this probably affects very few passengers, then it's a bit of a non-issue.

[achiruel]

Perhaps true, however first services in the morning are critical for the catchment of the Doomben line, as it feeds the 303 bus to the Eagle Farm/Pinkenba industrial areas and many factories start work quite early (6 am is reasonably common).  Workers in this area are basically forced to drive to work due to a lack of connective early morning services.

[techblitz]

Perhaps true, however first services in the morning are critical for the catchment of the Doomben line, as it feeds the 303 bus to the Eagle Farm/Pinkenba industrial areas and many factories start work quite early (6 am is reasonably common).  Workers in this area are basically forced to drive to work due to a lack of connective early morning services.

tnx achruel.....ive just noticed a bad rail-bus connection which hopefully we can count on BT to fix 

first  train to doomben arrives from city @ 546   303 leaves doomben 542  <<<needs readjust
next 303 leaves 6.16 ... Doomben train arr 6.26

next one is an eagle junction 303 so no real waiting issues

next 303 ex Doomben 712  train arrives Doomben 7.16  <<< needs readjust

BT should have no issues with adjusting these timetables accordingly since the 303 is officially the CLOSEST & Shortest route to EF depot. And yes achruel youre correct....the demand is there in the peaks...this will however be a BT issue not QR.

[Derwan]

Speaking of connections, I thought I'd have a look at the horrible ones from the Caboolture Line to the Shorncliffe Line and vice versa.

At the moment, heading from the Caboolture Line to the Shorncliffe Line during off-peak, you've got a change-over of 2 minutes - probably JUST enough for an able-bodied person to make their way over to platform 2.  From 20 January, the chang-over is 24 minutes.

Going the other way (Shorncliffe to Caboolture), the current change over is 28 minutes.  From 20 January, it'll be 29 minutes.  It couldn't be any worse and you'll probably see the Caboolture Train leaving Northgate as you arrive.

I guess it's impossible to make every connection perfect - or even reasonable! 

[Arnz]

Noticed there are 2 further updates to the new Caboolture/Sunshine Coast timetable starting January 20.

In addition to the previously mentioned, there are 2 updates.

The current 4.34pm Nambour express service will depart Central station 6 minutes later at 4.40pm.
The current 4.22pm Caboolture express service will depart Central station 6 minutes later at 4.28pm.

Looks like we (Landsborough/Nambour) commuters, while appreciating the extra service, are about to further complicate stopping patterns with the replacement 4:22pm (originating from Springfield) looking likely to remain running express Bowen Hills to Caboolture, stopping Northgate.  Either the 4:22pm may either be changed at the last minute to match the 3:34pm/4:04pm stopping pattern, or the existing 4:04pm is going to have it's stopping pattern changed to match the 4:22pm, and possibly a "downsizing" of units to a 3-car unit due to the less stops and extra services to Caboolture introduced around the 4:04pm Nambour service (2 new Caboolture services depart Central at 3:55pm and 4:10pm)

A minor nitpick is we lose the 30 min clockface afternoon peak between 3:34pm and 5:04pm to fit in the 4:22pm service.

[aldonius]

Map update news: I've done all the minor things, like colours and stopping patterns.

Here it is!

[Derwan]

Map update news: I've done all the minor things, like colours and stopping patterns.

Here it is!

That's awesome! TransLink should just use yours! Love the 15-minute off peak frequency indicator.

[aldonius]

Oh, it's nowhere near ready to go that public. Gotta make Dutton Park Place and GCRT-Helensvale alignment work, if nothing else.

[James]

Not a total fan of all the odd angles seen on the Eastern Busway, and not totally sure about the inclusion of Chermside/Carindale in the busway maps. Yeah, they act like that, but they have other intermediate stops which aren't served. Ignoring the silly 555/572 thing at night, the 555 essentially acts like a busway service between 8MP and Loganholme. The current busway map implies there are no stops Langlands Park - Carindale and Kedron Brook - Chermside, and also implies a Class A/Class B ROW. I think the inclusion of Windsor is a positive though. Even though the middle bit of the busway there is missing, I think its worth inclusion.

The white line down the middle for 15 minute frequency is a good way of showing it, but for some reason it bugs me. I wouldn't be too fussed about GCRT inclusion, for now it is still detached from the network. At most, have a line from Helensvale to GCUH stop.

[aldonius]

blah blah labelling Dutton Park Place blah blah angles on Eastern Busway

So the good news is that I found an inner-section draft from the previous version. It actually has the space for Dutton Park Place, and the Eastern Busway is a bit nicer there. The tradeoff is that the main busway now runs as an uninterrupted diagonal from Normanby to (at least) Buranda, which is actually quite neat.

That's here. I also fiddled with the alignment of the busway through PA further, here.

[#Metro]

Fantastic work!!

LOVE how Tennyson is deleted and you've put in two major trip centres which TL forgot about - Chermside and Carindale. Just need to add a line going from the Hilton Hotel to my place in the map for the 161

[Stillwater]

This is a wonderful tool.  TL should take note.

[nathandavid88]

Great work aldonius! I think I'll print out a copy of your map rather than using QR/TL's, as it's just so much better!

[ozbob]

Excellent work aldonius, thanks for putting it together.

  Have a muffin on me