Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[STB]

That's really not true.  Wait and see...

I do think there should continue to be expresses on the Cleveland line, just not necessarily from Manly. If you give the Cleveland line 10tph, you could very easily bunch services to allow for expresses.

Years ago, all Cleveland trains used to run express Lindum to Morningside, it was only in the mid-late 90s (EDIT: rather) that the Manly to Park Road express came about based on my research diving into the timetable archives.

I've done some dummy timetables here at home using the existing run times, and I've worked out to get an even headway between trains out of Cleveland and Manly in peak hour, you'd run them express Lindum to Park Road with a stop at Morningside which is by far the busiest station other than Birkdale and Cleveland on the Cleveland line.  Though I wouldn't be surprised to see the Lindum to Morningside express return.

[somebody]

The reason for the stops there is to maximise standing loads,

No, the reason is to adequately serve Albion, Woolowin and especially Nundah and Toombul.

EDIT: grammar

[James]

No, the reason is to adequately serve Albion, Woolowin and especially Nundah and Toombul.

EDIT: grammar

That remark related to Gold Coast trains, not SC express trains. Albion, Wooloowin, Nundah and Toombul can only be well-served by stopping some Caboolture services between Northgate and Bowen Hills. Due to the aforementioned expresses eating up track paths, once one train on the mains serves those stations, all the other trains must stop all stations there too, otherwise they will hit red signals.

I'll be honest though, if Sector II gives Bowen Hills - Northgate decent frequency (10 minute peak/15 minute off-peak frequency on the suburbans from Shorncliffe), I think all Caboolture trains should run express Bowen Hills - Northgate. It would increase waiting times for Nundah and Toombul pax, but Toombul has the bus interchange across the road, and the change would help decrease trip times and avoid overcrowding.

[STB]

No, the reason is to adequately serve Albion, Woolowin and especially Nundah and Toombul.

EDIT: grammar

That remark related to Gold Coast trains, not SC express trains. Albion, Wooloowin, Nundah and Toombul can only be well-served by stopping some Caboolture services between Northgate and Bowen Hills. Due to the aforementioned expresses eating up track paths, once one train on the mains serves those stations, all the other trains must stop all stations there too, otherwise they will hit red signals.

I'll be honest though, if Sector II gives Bowen Hills - Northgate decent frequency (10 minute peak/15 minute off-peak frequency on the suburbans from Shorncliffe), I think all Caboolture trains should run express Bowen Hills - Northgate. It would increase waiting times for Nundah and Toombul pax, but Toombul has the bus interchange across the road, and the change would help decrease trip times and avoid overcrowding.

Hmm, that would be an interesting idea.  Switch the all stoppers to the subs (Shorncliffe, Doomben) and let the expresses stay on the mains (Caboolture, Sunshine Coast), I suppose the only problem would be a drop in frequency.

[BrizCommuter]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
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The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

I know what will happen, people on the Cleveland line will demand the Manly to Park Rd express to stay, even though it eats into other train paths and is not good use of the capacity of the line itself.  And people on the Beenleigh line will demand more longer expresses, even though there isn't the capacity to do it.  And just you watch what the GC crowd will start whinging about, even though it is not physically doable.

I'd be very surprised if they did go to consultation, and I'd predict it'd be something low key.  Simply the outcome of that is that it'll do more harm than good, unless they go heavy on the education on why the demands cannot be met, but unfortunately I doubt that'd go down with the population anyway given that people aren't trained to be Planners and only see what they want in their own little world.

+1
If there is a large scale consultation, there will be a mass outbreak of "I want an express from my stationitis".

[Derwan]

Hmm, that would be an interesting idea.  Switch the all stoppers to the subs (Shorncliffe, Doomben) and let the expresses stay on the mains (Caboolture, Sunshine Coast), I suppose the only problem would be a drop in frequency.

I made this suggestion during a meeting that we had with QR regarding Sector 2 Timetables (a long time ago).  It was pointed out that Sector 1 was done so they wouldn't be looking at adjusting the stopping patterns of trains on the Caboolture line (mains).

Airtrain is also another factor.  It runs on the suburbans.

[Derwan]

The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

Is your first sentence specifically for the Gold Coast or Sector 2 timetables in general?

I for one am looking forward to having more than 2 additional services (yes just 2) each morning and afternoon peak on the Shorncliffe Line - and for significant crowding (compared to the Gold Coast Line) to be reduced.

[James]

Is your first sentence specifically for the Gold Coast or Sector 2 timetables in general?

I for one am looking forward to having more than 2 additional services (yes just 2) each morning and afternoon peak on the Shorncliffe Line - and for significant crowding (compared to the Gold Coast Line) to be reduced.

Specifically for outer BL/GC commuters. The lines to the north will have a lot more flexibility.

With regards to Sector I being made express, would it be that hard? Just run every train in peak (maybe off-peak) express, done. Is this another "we live in Queensland" moment?

[somebody]

Is your first sentence specifically for the Gold Coast or Sector 2 timetables in general?

I for one am looking forward to having more than 2 additional services (yes just 2) each morning and afternoon peak on the Shorncliffe Line - and for significant crowding (compared to the Gold Coast Line) to be reduced.

Specifically for outer BL/GC commuters. The lines to the north will have a lot more flexibility.

With regards to Sector I being made express, would it be that hard? Just run every train in peak (maybe off-peak) express, done. Is this another "we live in Queensland" moment?

Meh. You didn't explain how albion, w, t, n would be served. I think it's achievable with some work.

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[BrizCommuter]

Is your first sentence specifically for the Gold Coast or Sector 2 timetables in general?

I for one am looking forward to having more than 2 additional services (yes just 2) each morning and afternoon peak on the Shorncliffe Line - and for significant crowding (compared to the Gold Coast Line) to be reduced.

Specifically for outer BL/GC commuters. The lines to the north will have a lot more flexibility.

With regards to Sector I being made express, would it be that hard? Just run every train in peak (maybe off-peak) express, done. Is this another "we live in Queensland" moment?

I'm sure commuters between Northgate (excl.) and Albion (incl.) would love having their peak frequency chopped from every 3-6mins to up to every 15mins.

Do we know how far away from timetable release?

It was due in late 2011.
Now expected early 2014.

[Gazza]

I'm sure commuters between Northgate (excl.) and Albion (incl.) would love having their peak frequency chopped from every 3-6mins to up to every 15mins

Corinda had to suck it up with a frequency drop when Sector 1 got done and expresses were all shifted to Darra.

[somebody]

^ Wow, we agree 100%

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[James]

I'm sure commuters between Northgate (excl.) and Albion (incl.) would love having their peak frequency chopped from every 3-6mins to up to every 15mins.

10 minutes. In order to cope with capacity, services would have to be increased on the Shorncliffe line to every 9-12 minutes. Off-peak frequency would be every 15 minutes. While it is an increase in waiting time by up to 5 minutes in peak, this only affects two stations, one of which has a bus interchange with BUZ frequency across the road from it. Albion and Wooloowin will be down to no more than every 9 minutes I suspect, and given Doomben trains may very well give them a seat, I wouldn't call it a huge issue.

If the Airport contract could be re-negotiated to have stops in peak, it would hardly matter at all in the end. I really think we are making mountains out of dirt mounds. Pax from two stations get screwed over a la how Corinda did come Sector I, while everybody from Virginia to Nambour no longer has to do this stupid thing of stopping all stations Northgate - Bowen Hills, slowing an already long journey.

The express run also justifies more Shorncliffe trains. As long as Caboolture trains all stop BH - Northgate, I find it very difficult to justify a 4tph off-peak Shorncliffe service.

[Derwan]

I think we need to come back to reality here:

1.  They won't run 4tph during off-peak on the Shorncliffe Line.  (We don't even have that during peak at the moment!)
2.  They won't adjust the stopping pattern on Sector 1 (e.g. Caboolture Line).

FWIW I think they're good ideas, but I think they would be classed more as "future ideas" rather than possibilities for the current Sector 2 timetable review. 

[BrizCommuter]

I'm sure commuters between Northgate (excl.) and Albion (incl.) would love having their peak frequency chopped from every 3-6mins to up to every 15mins

Corinda had to suck it up with a frequency drop when Sector 1 got done and expresses were all shifted to Darra.

Corinda still has a peak train every 6-12mins though.

I'm sure commuters between Northgate (excl.) and Albion (incl.) would love having their peak frequency chopped from every 3-6mins to up to every 15mins.

10 minutes. In order to cope with capacity, services would have to be increased on the Shorncliffe line to every 9-12 minutes.

I doubt there will be Shorncliffe am peak trains running more frequently than every 15mins. In fact, I would be surprised if sector 2 timetables (from the North) were based around anything other than around a 15 minute cycle. Would like to be proved wrong though.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't see airport changing their contract as its their own paid for service and not a translink run service. Their whole marketing campaign is made around that fact ie express/x amount of stops from the Brisbane CBD/Frequency on public holidays-peak hour.

[somebody]

Corinda is no better than 12 minute frequency in the pm peak.

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[Old Northern Road]

If you combine the patronage of the Shorncliffe line with Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion it's actually busier than the Beenleigh line and nearly as busy as Cleveland and Ferny Grove so you'd need at least 8tph. Although I agree that it's unlikely we will see more than 4tph on the Shorncliffe line.

[James]

I think we need to come back to reality here:

1.  They won't run 4tph during off-peak on the Shorncliffe Line.  (We don't even have that during peak at the moment!)
2.  They won't adjust the stopping pattern on Sector 1 (e.g. Caboolture Line).

FWIW I think they're good ideas, but I think they would be classed more as "future ideas" rather than possibilities for the current Sector 2 timetable review. 

We need to be forward thinking. As I've discussed prior, the only way to have a truly decent frequent network is by having frequent railway lines.

I think this, along with 15 minute frequency to Kuraby (or at least along inner BL line), Manly and (obviously) Ferny Grove, need to be top priority issues.

If you combine the patronage of the Shorncliffe line with Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion it's actually busier than the Beenleigh line and nearly as busy as Cleveland and Ferny Grove so you'd need at least 8tph. Although I agree that it's unlikely we will see more than 4tph on the Shorncliffe line.

The thing is, if we turn back half of trains at Sandgate, this can be done. 8tph in peak is possible, and it delivers a far better service to SC line commuters, and in effect, allows for the removal of routes like the 310 which needlessly run to Sandgate and cross/go near a railway line several times.

[BrizCommuter]

I think we need to come back to reality here:

1.  They won't run 4tph during off-peak on the Shorncliffe Line.  (We don't even have that during peak at the moment!)
2.  They won't adjust the stopping pattern on Sector 1 (e.g. Caboolture Line).

FWIW I think they're good ideas, but I think they would be classed more as "future ideas" rather than possibilities for the current Sector 2 timetable review. 

We need to be forward thinking. As I've discussed prior, the only way to have a truly decent frequent network is by having frequent railway lines.

I think this, along with 15 minute frequency to Kuraby (or at least along inner BL line), Manly and (obviously) Ferny Grove, need to be top priority issues.

If you combine the patronage of the Shorncliffe line with Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion it's actually busier than the Beenleigh line and nearly as busy as Cleveland and Ferny Grove so you'd need at least 8tph. Although I agree that it's unlikely we will see more than 4tph on the Shorncliffe line.

The thing is, if we turn back half of trains at Sandgate, this can be done. 8tph in peak is possible, and it delivers a far better service to SC line commuters, and in effect, allows for the removal of routes like the 310 which needlessly run to Sandgate and cross/go near a railway line several times.

Slight problem. There is not enough track capacity through the core on the "suburbans" for 8tph on the Shorncliffe Line.

[James]

Slight problem. There is not enough track capacity through the core on the "suburbans" for 8tph on the Shorncliffe Line.

Taking Ferny Grove to be 10tph (isn't it limited to 11tph due to 8 minute turn-arounds?), Airport to be 4tph (more I believe creates single track issues) and assuming that there's 24tph of capacity, there is 10tph to be shared between Shorncliffe and Doomben. Doomben takes 2tph, Shorncliffe 8tph.

[BrizCommuter]

Slight problem. There is not enough track capacity through the core on the "suburbans" for 8tph on the Shorncliffe Line.

Taking Ferny Grove to be 10tph (isn't it limited to 11tph due to 8 minute turn-arounds?), Airport to be 4tph (more I believe creates single track issues) and assuming that there's 24tph of capacity, there is 10tph to be shared between Shorncliffe and Doomben. Doomben takes 2tph, Shorncliffe 8tph.

Realistically, I doubt we will see more than 20tph to/from the north. Whilst the subs can run 24tph, they cannot run it reliably. There is also a limitation in the number of trains available, with quite a few sector 2 peak services likely to be 3 car units. Finally, 8tph (with half reversed at Sandgate) would be very difficult to operate reliably. BrizCommuter's guess is an am peak 15 min cycle with 2 Ferny Grove, 1 Shorncliffe, 1 Airport, and 1 Doomben/Empty Slot.

[somebody]

I think we need to come back to reality here:

1.  They won't run 4tph during off-peak on the Shorncliffe Line.  (We don't even have that during peak at the moment!)
2.  They won't adjust the stopping pattern on Sector 1 (e.g. Caboolture Line).

FWIW I think they're good ideas, but I think they would be classed more as "future ideas" rather than possibilities for the current Sector 2 timetable review. 

But they can run express bowen hills to eagle junction. To all stop in peak would be intentional mediocrity. End of story.

EDIT: fix quotes

[Derwan]

I think we need to come back to reality here:

1.  They won't run 4tph during off-peak on the Shorncliffe Line.  (We don't even have that during peak at the moment!)
2.  They won't adjust the stopping pattern on Sector 1 (e.g. Caboolture Line).

FWIW I think they're good ideas, but I think they would be classed more as "future ideas" rather than possibilities for the current Sector 2 timetable review. 

We need to be forward thinking. As I've discussed prior, the only way to have a truly decent frequent network is by having frequent railway lines.

I think this, along with 15 minute frequency to Kuraby (or at least along inner BL line), Manly and (obviously) Ferny Grove, need to be top priority issues.

I agree that we need to be forward thinking.  But I simply can't see it happening in Sector 2 timetables.  Let's hope that this review actually frees the paths though - in anticipation of increased off-peak frequency in the future.

If you combine the patronage of the Shorncliffe line with Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion it's actually busier than the Beenleigh line and nearly as busy as Cleveland and Ferny Grove so you'd need at least 8tph. Although I agree that it's unlikely we will see more than 4tph on the Shorncliffe line.

The thing is, if we turn back half of trains at Sandgate, this can be done. 8tph in peak is possible, and it delivers a far better service to SC line commuters, and in effect, allows for the removal of routes like the 310 which needlessly run to Sandgate and cross/go near a railway line several times.

I think that by the time they consider running more than 4tph on the Shorncliffe Line (in peak), they'll be duplicating the track between Sandgate and Shorncliffe and redeveloping Shorncliffe Station to include a second platform.  That's my gut feeling.  Shorncliffe Line is the forgotten line.

[petey3801]

Shorncliffe Line is the forgotten line.

To be fair, I think the Doomben line is the forgotten line in Brisbane 

Although the Shorncliffe line isn't too far behind it!

[#Metro]

To be fair, I think the Doomben line is the forgotten line in Brisbane 

Although the Shorncliffe line isn't too far behind it!

Nothing that firing some more BT rockets at won't solve!

[aldonius]

10tph for FG is probably overkill (at current fares).

As a FGer I would be very happy with an even 8tph from 6:45am-8:30am (FG departure times).

For perspective, Shorncliffe only gets an uneven 3tph in core peak now and FG has about 6tph on average (also very uneven and actually 5tph for the first hour and 7tph for the second). Airport has an even-ish 4tph, and Doomben 1-2tph.

So I would suggest at for the 2 hour arrival period at Central from circa 7-9am:
Ferny Grove 8tph, Airport & Shorncliffe 4tph each, Doomben 2tph, at more even intervals.

Caboolture trains still stop at Albion & Wooloowin, so there'll still be plenty of frequency (albeit somewhat uneven) there.

[BrizCommuter]

I think we'll see am peak ex-FG trains through the CBD every 6-9mins in the new timetable (2 every 15mins). They may depart FG at regular 7-8 min intervals though. Given the reduction in patronage due to many years of faremaggedon, I think 8tph (all stations) will suffice for a few years.

[STB]

I think we'll see am peak ex-FG trains through the CBD every 6-9mins in the new timetable (2 every 15mins). They may depart FG at regular 7-8 min intervals though. Given the reduction in patronage due to many years of faremaggedon, I think 8tph (all stations) will suffice for a few years.

I'd say they will depart every 6-9mins out of FG (more likely every 9mins), given that the new paths are for trains at 3mins apart each.  I"d also say the FG expresses are gone, same with Shorncliffe, where I'd predict trains out of Shorncliffe will be every 12-15mins apart.  Cleveland should be every 15mins apart given that's the maximum frequency you can currently have on the existing single track, and probably every 9mins apart beyond Manly in peak.  Beenleigh I think will be similar with trains every 9-12mins apart, and Gold Coast every 15mins apart during peak hour.  That's a semi educated prediction.

[James]

The new timetable for FG, if it goes to 8tph, will be a huge improvement to people at stations between Windsor and Gaythorne (who currently have 20 minute gaps in both AM and PM peak due Ferny Grove expresses), a decent improvement Oxford Park - Ferny Grove and a slight improvement for Mitchelton thanks to more consistent timetabling.

Mitchie expresses existed primarily due to the issues with the single track restricting the flow of trains past Mitchelton. Now that the line has been duplicated all the way to Ferny Grove, this issue is moot now.

[Derwan]

The new timetable for FG, if it goes to 8tph, will be a huge improvement to people at stations between Windsor and Gaythorne (who currently have 20 minute gaps in both AM and PM peak due Ferny Grove expresses)

20 minute gap? The whole Shorncliffe line has a 26-minute gap right smack bang in the middle of the AM peak and then a 31-minute gap during the early PM peak.   

[ozbob]

^  farcical is it not?    

[James]

20 minute gap? The whole Shorncliffe line has a 26-minute gap right smack bang in the middle of the AM peak and then a 31-minute gap during the early PM peak.   

At least the Shorncliffe line has smaller/similar gaps in peak compared to weekday off-peak. You are actually more likely to get to Enoggera faster at 1pm in the afternoon rather than 5pm in the afternoon thanks to the existence of the expresses on the Ferny Grove line.

Inner BL line stations (Dutton Park - Banoon, excluding CP/Yeerongpilly) have a 23 minute gap in the middle of PM peak, and some of them have a 22 minute gap in the middle of AM peak. What makes this situation worse is along the inner Beenleigh line there is quite frequent service for around half an hour, then suddenly no trains for 20 minutes. You actually have better frequency counter-peak at Dutton Park/Fairfield/Yeronga than you do in the peak direction.

Cleveland line stations between Buranda and Wynnum Central also have a 27-minute gap around 5:30pm in PM peak and a 23-minute gap in AM Peak. So many gaps in service, it is simply shocking. No wonder people avoid using PT...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Poor you. The people of Warner have hourly gaps during peak hour

[Set in train]

Cleveland line stations between Buranda and Wynnum Central also have a 27-minute gap around 5:30pm in PM peak and a 23-minute gap in AM Peak. So many gaps in service, it is simply shocking. No wonder people avoid using PT...

So much for clockface timetabling.

Don't forget the 36 and 35 minute gap citybound in the Gold Coast timetable or the 46 min gap outbound in the morning. Most important line on the network.

All the sector 2 theorising on the board here will not change the fact that Gold Coast MPs will be marked down by their electorates if speed and frequency of trips are decreased.

[somebody]

Poor you. The people of Warner have hourly gaps during peak hour

Doesn't make the Shorncliffe line timetable acceptable.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Never said it did.

[somebody]

Meh.  There will always be someone worse off.  Arguing against improvements on the grounds that there may be someone, somewhere who needs it more isn't helpful.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Well maybe I should have pointed out the gaps in peak hour that the 338 currently experiences? 

[STB]

Cleveland line stations between Buranda and Wynnum Central also have a 27-minute gap around 5:30pm in PM peak and a 23-minute gap in AM Peak. So many gaps in service, it is simply shocking. No wonder people avoid using PT...

So much for clockface timetabling.

Don't forget the 36 and 35 minute gap citybound in the Gold Coast timetable or the 46 min gap outbound in the morning. Most important line on the network.

All the sector 2 theorising on the board here will not change the fact that Gold Coast MPs will be marked down by their electorates if speed and frequency of trips are decreased.

The changes to the express patterns should fix that, although expect grief from passengers between Manly and Cleveland.