Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[techblitz]

 
arrive in Brisbane at 3.53 in the morning...that's gonna go down well with people picking the schoolkids up for xmas/school holidays etc.
Whats that ? do I hear the words `bugger that they can fly into brisbane'  At lease planes arrive into major cities at proper times of the day.

Prediction: it will now go from a measly 170 to 130-150 average 

[Set in train]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/9/17/interstate-train-to-make-way-for-local-services

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

"The interstate service currently requires two paths on the Gold Coast line between Roma Street and Salisbury – departing Roma Street at 6.30am and a second path at 7.30am during summer," Mr Emerson said.

[ENDS] 17 September 2013

No wonder Qld does not have daylight saving, in summer the arrival/departure times are one hour earlier. See pages 6 & 7:

http://www.nswtrainlink.info/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/13809/NorthCoastRegion.pdf

In winter/non DST, the 'train paths' are to Roma St for 6:30am and departing Roma St at 7:30am. In summer, the Roma St arrival of the XPT has been 5:30am and departing at 6:30am.

If they can't get simple times correct, what hope do we have for a whole transport ministry?

[HappyTrainGuy]

The first Caboolture-Ipswich service arrives at Roma Street at 5am

Personally I don't mind the early depart time as it means those traveling south can get off at intermittent stops at a better time. That's what I hate about the TiltTrains/TravelTrains. It leaves just before midday so if you're traveling long distance or boarding inbetween you end up doing it at 11pm-4am out in whoop whoop.

[ozbob]

Oh those great days (or was it daze ..  ) on the Brisbane Limited.  How civilised it all was ...

[Gazza]

Personally I don't mind the early depart time as it means those traveling south can get off at intermittent stops at a better time. That's what I hate about the TiltTrains/TravelTrains. It leaves just before midday so if you're traveling long distance or boarding inbetween you end up doing it at 11pm-4am out in whoop whoop.

Good point....with something as inherently slow as the CountryLink trains you are inevitably going to have a crappy arrival/departure time at one end of the journey due to the sheer length of time involved.

do I hear the words `bugger that they can fly into brisbane'  At lease planes arrive into major cities at proper times of the day.

Well...why not? Fares on Tiger or Jet Maggot are pretty cheap, it's faster, and the Brisbane and Sydney ends of the journey .

Don't really understand the love for marginal train services like the XPT....

[HappyTrainGuy]

Don't really understand the love for marginal train services like the XPT....

The XPT just like the TravelTrains have their advantages depending on where you are going and what's at the other end - PT, Car rentals, family/friends, distances, the type of trip you're doing etc. We prefer to use the XPT for the inbetween stop when visiting family because they live close by (Jump on the XPT at Roma Street, get off to visit family for a few days, get back on the XPT to Sydney, visit more family for a few days, fly back to Brisbane) but when we only visit family in Sydney we jump on a plane to and from. If they lived in Newcastle however we'd be way more inclined to fly there, fly to Sydney then fly back to Brisbane just because of the convenience and time saving vs catching a train or driving.

Ideally the long distance services should be more frequent (eg 1 in the morning/1 in the arvo) but we all know that's just like p%ssing into the wind 

[cartoonbirdhaus]

The XPT just like the TravelTrains have their advantages depending on where you are going and what's at the other end

They're much more useful for the regional centres. It's not like there are flights from Brisbane to Casino, for instance.

We prefer to use the XPT for the inbetween stop when visiting family because they live close by (Jump on the XPT at Roma Street, get off to visit family for a few days, get back on the XPT to Sydney, visit more family for a few days, fly back to Brisbane)

That makes sense with trains arriving at a reasonable time of the day in one direction, but not the other. (Who wants to get up in the dead of night to get back from Grafton?)

Ideally the long distance services should be more frequent (eg 1 in the morning/1 in the arvo) but we all know that's just like p%ssing into the wind

Enough path conflicts as it is.

By the way, first class might seem like a lot more $$$ for three more inches of seat pitch and the ability to tilt one's seat-back further; but the extra fare acts as a "feral filter". At least it has been up 'til now; with the train arriving at not quite 4 am at that dungeon, and heading back before anyone's able to access it by local public transport, patronage is going to plummet.

[James]

I personally think removing the XPT from peak is a great idea. Yes, it won't be terribly convenient for the passengers who use the XPT, but more passengers are set to gain by removing it.

The big issue with the XPT is not when it comes into Brisbane, but when it goes out. It blocks all the inbound trains on the suburbans/southern mains due to it needing to cross to the SG/DG line, and then it proceeds to block the line for any GC trains wishing to use the DG for around 15 minutes, which accounting for the fact that trains can only get on/off the DG at Yeerongpilly, leaves a 30 minute window when inbound trains are restricted to one track.

Even if this change only allows for one additional 6-car train, assuming that train even has just a full seated load, it will still benefit 2-3x more passengers than keeping the XPT where it was would. Yes, they serve a function of connecting regional passengers, but I don't see the regional rail network buckling under the pressure of constant strong growth and lack of action on major infrastructure projects.

IMO, come Sector II timetables, I believe Beenleigh Line express trains should run express Coopers Plains (at the least) - South Bank on the DG. Park Rd is missed, but then the DG can operate as a dedicated express line. Pax may have to stand. Boo hoo. Maybe if Peter Beattie and Anna Bligh hadn't sat around building 'world clarse' busways in 1km piecemeal segments with the middle missing, we might actually have a Cross River Rail tunnel and we wouldn't be facing capacity issues.

[Stillwater]

Tourist brochure blurb .......

"Your overnight train from Sydney will arrive in bustling Brisbane in time for you to greet the brand new day.  You won't have time to wipe the sleep from your eyes before it is time to stroll to the nearby parklands to hear the frogs croaking.  There's even time to observe the rising sun on the waters of the beautiful Brisbane River.  Watch the rowers exercise.  Along the uncrowded streets of Brisbane, you can chat to the early-morning joggers and delivery drivers as they go about their business.  Smell the aroma of the baking bread and the coffee being brewed behind closed doors.  Feed the pigeons in King George square with the bread roll you saved from the XPT train......."

[ozbob]

It is kind of funny if not tragic, that they think this is OK, even put out a statement. 

Yes, the XPT needed to be shunted out of the peak because there is a need to claim those paths for reasons known to all.

Were there other options?  Most certainly but the freighters etc. get the priority these days so the available windows would be small.

Terminating at Salisbury with a temp platform could have been done, but clearly there is only a limited life left.

I think I will try to get on it ex Sydney sooner than later as I am sure it won't last that long from here ...

A good thing about the Brisbane Limited ex Sydney was that Border Loop etc. usually coincided with dawn or shortly after.  Excellent views.  Sadly with this midnight madness timetable all in darkness, but be a good trip to Sydney during daylight. 

A harbinger of what is to come no doubt ..

[ozbob]

^ statement.

The changes for the XPT are flagged from 21st October.  Assume the timings then are the DST NSW timings.

DST commences first Sunday in October in NSW.

None DST arrival would be 4.53am and departure at 5.55am, I would expect ...

[#Metro]

I fully expect the XPT to be axed in the future and replaced with buses. Large parts of the network already have been replaced by bus.

A seat on the train is $130 ex Sydney (Central) but is 50% off for students and $1 for children. (http://www.nswtrainlink.info/deals/offers/kids)  I'm sure the subsidies are quite high for the service.

[Golliwog]

I guess the question now becomes with the implementation date for the XPT shift announced, but no announcement on changes to train timetables on the SE QLD network announced, what are peoples expectations:

1. Only a minor change for GC/Beenleigh trains to be announced at a later date
2. No changes announced for now and the benefit to be squandered until they can get their act together
3. The consultation phase on sector 2 to open VERY soon and be very short to take advantage of this gap opening up
4. No consultation on sector 2, to be implemented when the XPT is switched or shortly thereafter.

The lack of announcement of any changes to the GC-Beenleigh lines is making me think they're holding on for a bit until they have something more solid on the Sector 2 to announce, so maybe a bit of #2, followed eventually by #4?

[aldonius]

Others have mentioned that their sources have told them that S2 is to be expected at the start of next year (finally!)

If by 1) you mean 'whatever they can scramble to put in that slot until S2 rollout' then that's what I hope/expect. The XPT retiming has been in the air for quite a while now.

[STB]

Sounds like that if Sector II timetables go in early next year, they may not do consultations, and just go into the deep end and implement.  I suppose though if you have the public try and dictate train timetables on a complex network which the SII timetables are with multiple lines and single track and possible conflicts, it's probably easier to implement first and respond later.

[Set in train]

Even if this change only allows for one additional 6-car train, assuming that train even has just a full seated load, it will still benefit 2-3x more passengers than keeping the XPT where it was would. Yes, they serve a function of connecting regional passengers, but I don't see the regional rail network buckling under the pressure of constant strong growth and lack of action on major infrastructure projects.

IMO, come Sector II timetables, I believe Beenleigh Line express trains should run express Coopers Plains (at the least) - South Bank on the DG. Park Rd is missed, but then the DG can operate as a dedicated express line. Pax may have to stand. Boo hoo. Maybe if Peter Beattie and Anna Bligh hadn't sat around building 'world clarse' busways in 1km piecemeal segments with the middle missing, we might actually have a Cross River Rail tunnel and we wouldn't be facing capacity issues.

Go James, another stirring post.

Even the first express GC train for Brisbane is effected as it arrives at Roma St after 6:30am when DST is on in the majority of the nation.

Perhaps the XPT should've departed at 6 in winter, 5 in DST?

[Cam]

Perhaps the XPT should've departed at 6 in winter, 5 in DST?

When SE Queensland adopts daylight saving time for 6 months per year, the XPT can then depart Brisbane at 6am all year round. 

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently, told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

EDIT: Comma inserted for clarity.

[Derwan]

When SE Queensland adopts daylight saving time for 6 months per year, the XPT can then depart Brisbane at 6am all year round. 

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

   

[James]

When SE Queensland adopts daylight saving time for 6 months per year, the XPT can then depart Brisbane at 6am all year round. 

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently, told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

EDIT: Comma inserted for clarity.

But the curtains will fade, the cows will get confused, everybody will have heart attacks and develop depression! Where do they get that extra hour of daylight? It is like daylight robbery!

(NB: James believes his curtains will fade less, given he is not keeping them closed for several hours in the morning due to the sun coming up at 4:30am in the morning!)

[ozbob]

NSW Timetables

--> http://www.nswtrainlink.info/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/20348/North_Coast_timetable.pdf

[Derwan]

Seeing the XPT in daylight - soon to be a thing of the past:

[minbrisbane]

Unless of course its legendary reliability continues.

[Set in train]

Seeing the XPT in daylight - soon to be a thing of the past:

What a great photo, thanks Derwan.

I find it frustrating to wait at the busway platform overlooking this picture as I see the standard gauge track and all the advantages that go with standard gauge.

[Set in train]

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently, told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

Do not believe this, this is a lie used to keep gullible voters voting for them, same way the Redcliffe rail carrot was dangled and always disappeared.

[Cam]

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently, told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

Do not believe this, this is a lie used to keep gullible voters voting for them, same way the Redcliffe rail carrot was dangled and always disappeared.

Yes, you may be right. I hope not for many reasons.

Dumping passengers at 3.53am with waits of up to 2 hours for the first morning connecting rail/bus services for six months of the year is poor customer service. Scheduling a departure of 4.55am before any suburban rail/bus service can have you there is just ridiculous.

The only justification for this timetable is if the LNP plan to introduce daylight saving in the next couple of years. If this is not the case, I shake my head thinking "only in Queensland". They are deliberately trying to make the service as inconvenient as possible to reduce patronage and will have a justification to cancel the service and replace with buses.

[minbrisbane]

I'm certain the cost to QLD would be quite minimal, I do wonder how much.

[BrizCommuter]

The BrizCommuter word on the currently non-existent sector 2 timetable consultation.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/where-is-qrs-sector-2-timetable.html

[STB]

The BrizCommuter word on the currently non-existent sector 2 timetable consultation.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/where-is-qrs-sector-2-timetable.html

I tend to agree with you. 

A consultation process will probably be more painful than helpful simply because there are limited options available with the Sector II timetables.  I think what will happen is that the Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe expresses will be gone, and the Beenleigh and Cleveland line expresses will be modified to get more capacity out of the existing network and rollingstock (ie: I think the Manly to Park Rd express will be gone, probably replaced by a Lindum to Morningside express instead - I personally think a Lindum to Park Rd with a stop at Morningside express will be sufficient).  The bigger benefit rumoured will be a more wide ranging 15min frequency and better connections, particularly at Park Rd between the Beenleigh/Cleveland/Gold Coast trains.

[Set in train]

A Gold Coast LNP MP mentioned on these forums recently, told me that it may be introduced after the next state election.

Do not believe this, this is a lie used to keep gullible voters voting for them, same way the Redcliffe rail carrot was dangled and always disappeared.

Yes, you may be right. I hope not for many reasons.

Dumping passengers at 3.53am with waits of up to 2 hours for the first morning connecting rail/bus services for six months of the year is poor customer service. Scheduling a departure of 4.55am before any suburban rail/bus service can have you there is just ridiculous.

The only justification for this timetable is if the LNP plan to introduce daylight saving in the next couple of years. If this is not the case, I shake my head thinking "only in Queensland". They are deliberately trying to make the service as inconvenient as possible to reduce patronage and will have a justification to cancel the service and replace with buses.

The XPT service currently averages about 170 passengers a trip. Additional customer service arrangements will be put in place to meet the earlier arrival times.

It would appear Qld Gov are contributing for the 170 passengers that need assistance. I don't think it will be a problem.

[STB]

Eh, I think the XPT is a bit of an outdated service on the way out.  The only real benefit of having the XPT is for passengers travelling from regional centre to regional centre between Brisbane and Sydney.  IMO, I think the hundreds that travel from the Gold Coast and Beenleigh outweighs 170 odd passengers on the XPT.  It is a NSW based train who has been using our paths in our peak hour.  Seems fair to move them out of the way so the peak hour paths get the highest priority.

By the way, I think the move to the earlier time was more on NSW's part and the complex scheduling that I'm sure was involved given single track sections and Sydney's complex timetabling in the Cityrail area.  From what I've heard, it is quite tight down there with only one other path identified by a rail nut.

[somebody]

Eh, I think the XPT is a bit of an outdated service on the way out.  The only real benefit of having the XPT is for passengers travelling from regional centre to regional centre between Brisbane and Sydney.  IMO, I think the hundreds that travel from the Gold Coast and Beenleigh outweighs 170 odd passengers on the XPT.  It is a NSW based train who has been using our paths in our peak hour.  Seems fair to move them out of the way so the peak hour paths get the highest priority.

By the way, I think the move to the earlier time was more on NSW's part and the complex scheduling that I'm sure was involved given single track sections and Sydney's complex timetabling in the Cityrail area.  From what I've heard, it is quite tight down there with only one other path identified by a rail nut.

I think the major problem is that all the XPT units have a pretty high utilisation just to do the services that they do.

[somebody]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

[James]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

[STB]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

I know what will happen, people on the Cleveland line will demand the Manly to Park Rd express to stay, even though it eats into other train paths and is not good use of the capacity of the line itself.  And people on the Beenleigh line will demand more longer expresses, even though there isn't the capacity to do it.  And just you watch what the GC crowd will start whinging about, even though it is not physically doable.

I'd be very surprised if they did go to consultation, and I'd predict it'd be something low key.  Simply the outcome of that is that it'll do more harm than good, unless they go heavy on the education on why the demands cannot be met, but unfortunately I doubt that'd go down with the population anyway given that people aren't trained to be Planners and only see what they want in their own little world.

[longboi]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

I know what will happen, people on the Cleveland line will demand the Manly to Park Rd express to stay, even though it eats into other train paths and is not good use of the capacity of the line itself.  And people on the Beenleigh line will demand more longer expresses, even though there isn't the capacity to do it.  And just you watch what the GC crowd will start whinging about, even though it is not physically doable.

I'd be very surprised if they did go to consultation, and I'd predict it'd be something low key.  Simply the outcome of that is that it'll do more harm than good, unless they go heavy on the education on why the demands cannot be met, but unfortunately I doubt that'd go down with the population anyway given that people aren't trained to be Planners and only see what they want in their own little world.

Then they get onto the local MP, in the local rag and soon enough the whole thing gets canned and the people of Manly onward keep their express.

[Arnz]

The Gold Coast line will likely get more peak services, but more likely with the condition of more stops being added to maximise train paths and capacity. 

GC People complain about extra stops being added, and then they don't get their extra services as a result of the thing being canned? (and the whinging starts again when the Minister cans the changes). 

[somebody]

I know what will happen, people on the Cleveland line will demand the Manly to Park Rd express to stay, even though it eats into other train paths and is not good use of the capacity of the line itself.

Ooh really?  What extra trains could be run if the trains to Cleveland ran all stations?  In fact, one would expect these trains to become more crowded with the all stations short working trains becoming less so.

[SurfRail]

I disagree with brizcommuter and stb about the consultation being a waste of time. Consultations increase buy in, if nothing else. sydney,s one a few years ago definitely resulted in improvements, shortly to be undone with a change rammed in without consultation.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the original draft timetable is better than the current one wrt sunshine coast.
Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

The issue is, though, there is practically nothing the planners can do to make the timetable better. GC trains might stop between South Bank and Yeerongpilly in peak in Sector II. GC commuters bitch and moan about it, but there is nothing QR can do about it.

That's really not true.  Wait and see...

[SurfRail]

The Gold Coast line will likely get more peak services, but more likely with the condition of more stops being added to maximise train paths and capacity. 

GC People complain about extra stops being added, and then they don't get their extra services as a result of the thing being canned? (and the whinging starts again when the Minister cans the changes).

I don't think the Minister will be canning this set.

Broadly speaking Arnz you are right on what will be happening to the Gold Coast, although some people may be surprised with the actual result.

[James]

That's really not true.  Wait and see...

The reason for the stops there is to maximise standing loads, given GC commuters believe one person standing on their AM core peak train trip makes their train the Bombay Express. It is in a different case to the SC Line situation, where there are only two tracks Northgate - Roma Street for the mains. Beenleigh line, same situation. I look forward to seeing where the planners put the express patterns and what they actually do with the GC trains.

I do think there should continue to be expresses on the Cleveland line, just not necessarily from Manly. If you give the Cleveland line 10tph, you could very easily bunch services to allow for expresses.