Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[ozbob]

Were going to be implemented Sept/Oct this year. Pity they cannot actually inform the public what is going on ...

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

19th May 2013

Hello! Where are you sector two timetables?

Greetings,

In June 2011 sector one train timetables were implemented.  This was for the Sunshine Coast Line, Caboolture, Ipswich, Richlands and Rosewood lines.  These timetable improvements were the first major overhaul of rail timetables for over 15 years!  In a statement on 14 Jul 2011 ( http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/Id/75671 ) the then Minister for Transport and Multicultural Affairs The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk indicated that work on the stage 2 timetables (now referred to as sector 2) would commence with a view to implementation following consultation.

What has happened to the sector 2 timetables?   A failure to move forward with sector 2 timetables means that the rail network continues to be hamstrung with poor service frequency, missed connections as sector one timetables are not in phase with sector 2, and because of the timetable issues with the present timetables for most lines.

How about informing the public as to what is actually going on?  Informed sources have suggested that sector 2 timetable implementation has now been pushed back even further, to 2014.

Worlds worst fares, failed bus network review, failed timetable implementation.  It is little wonder that patronage has stalled on the public transport network, and fare affordability is at its lowest level ever.

Road congestion in SEQ continues to worsen daily.  It is time that the Government comes clean ...

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

From memory, Metro Melbourne is up to number 3 major timetable revision since July 2011, even good old CityRail is embarking on the impossible .. lol

Oh dear ...

[Set in train]

Not a stirring question, genuine:

How would a sector 2 review improve travel times on the Gold Coast line with infrastructure limitations at the Coomera and Brisbane Rivers?

If we were to see a repeat of the cruel review of the much maligned Sunshine Coast line of more frequent services yet longer travel times, it would be sure to upset many users.

[ozbob]

I would expect the XPT would be moved for a start.  This immediately provides more paths ...

[Set in train]

I would expect the XPT would be moved for a start.  This immediately provides more paths ...

That would be good for the morning commute if that happened. Would the XPT be moved to a mid morning start to avoid the peak year round?

[somebody]

How would a sector 2 review improve travel times on the Gold Coast line with infrastructure limitations at the Coomera and Brisbane Rivers?

Pretty much the only way that will happen is if fat is removed from the timetable.

[ozbob]

I would expect the XPT would be moved for a start.  This immediately provides more paths ...

That would be good for the morning commute if that happened. Would the XPT be moved to a mid morning start to avoid the peak year round?

I would expect the changes would be such that it no longer interferes with peak timetables ..  guess we will have to wait a bit longer now to see what is proposed ... 

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter is banging his head against a wall over this (not entirely unexpected) news. Here is another blog post on the continuing stage 2 timetable fail:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/stage-2-timetables-delayed-yet-again.html

How would a sector 2 review improve travel times on the Gold Coast line with infrastructure limitations at the Coomera and Brisbane Rivers?

It probably won't. However, significant improvements are expected to many of the other lines that are part of the stage 2 timetables.

It has been argued that as the Gold Coast Line has around 50% spare capacity crossing the Merivale Bridge in the am peak, that maybe a few extra inner-suburban stops would make better use of limited Merivale Bridge capacity.

[Set in train]

It has been argued that as the Gold Coast Line has around 50% spare capacity crossing the Merivale Bridge in the am peak, that maybe a few extra inner-suburban stops would make better use of limited Merivale Bridge capacity.

Try selling that to those who stand on the trains with Surfrail. I can already hear them readying themselves to complain of overcrowding and longer travel times.

[minbrisbane]

If anyone says 'Bombay Express'...

[#Metro]

Even Bombay is getting the metro 

[somebody]

Regarding the XPT, the leaked final draft timetable has it passing Broadmeadow at 17:06 rather than 18:32.  So it will reach Roma St around 5am in winter and 4am in summer.

Only slightly earlier on the return 17:57 vs 18:50 at present.  Looks like a 6am-6:30am winter departure.  A bit unpleasant to reach that one.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

Looks like a 6am-6:30am winter departure.  A bit unpleasant to reach that one.

Not as unpleasant as reaching Economy class on the XPT anyway! Obviously it will always have a marginal role regardless of when it's slotted in.

[STB]

I've taken a quick glance.

Just some quick notes based on that (I haven't gone into detail yet - got a deadline to meet)

Cleveland line - the run time you have between Thorneside and Cleveland are far too short, minimum of 3mins (not 2mins).

The standard turnback (jargon for turnaround of a train), is 6mins 3 car service, 8mins 6 car service - taken from my documents in 2009 when I was still at QR as a Network Planner.  Shorter times require a turnback crew (extra crew).

By the way, you also need to allow some fat for crossovers at stations with single track either side.

[petey3801]

Not quite related to the Sector 2 timetables, but it's likely something we'll have to "look forward" to when they do arrive...

This morning, I had an Ipswich - Bowen Hills express. Due to a fault that arose departing Goodna, the front unit was, for all intents and purposes, towing the rear unit (unable to get tractive power from the rear unit).

We departed Darra on time (after a rather slow run from Wacol to Darra) to start the express to Indooroopilly. Being that only the front unit was powering, it was very slow to accelerate. Arrival at Indooroopilly was still 2 minutes early...

Thankfully we were able to rectify the fault at Indooroopilly and departed from there with full power, but the fact that we were basically towing a dead unit between Darra and Indooroopilly yet still arrived at Indro 2 mins early is just plain ludicrous!

[James]

Not quite related to the Sector 2 timetables, but it's likely something we'll have to "look forward" to when they do arrive...

This morning, I had an Ipswich - Bowen Hills express. Due to a fault that arose departing Goodna, the front unit was, for all intents and purposes, towing the rear unit (unable to get tractive power from the rear unit).

We departed Darra on time (after a rather slow run from Wacol to Darra) to start the express to Indooroopilly. Being that only the front unit was powering, it was very slow to accelerate. Arrival at Indooroopilly was still 2 minutes early...

Thankfully we were able to rectify the fault at Indooroopilly and departed from there with full power, but the fact that we were basically towing a dead unit between Darra and Indooroopilly yet still arrived at Indro 2 mins early is just plain ludicrous!

In the train's defence, once the thing was going at a constant speed it should have been alright because there was no accelerating/decelerating.

I do agree with your remark about the slowness of the express leg. I've heard the trains on the Darra - Indro leg often end up running very early. I think this part of the trip especially could be sped up by 2-3 minutes. Between Corinda and Indro the track is dead straight and has a speed limit of about 80 km/hr. The current timetable says trips take 10 minutes, meaning the train only averages a bit over 50 km/hr. 80 km/hr running most of the way would make the trip take about 6 minutes, but given the close timetabling of trains I do think a bit of fat should be built in - 7 minutes would probably be best. The change could be easily done just by shuffling the schedule around a bit on the Ipswich Line.

[petey3801]

Not quite related to the Sector 2 timetables, but it's likely something we'll have to "look forward" to when they do arrive...

This morning, I had an Ipswich - Bowen Hills express. Due to a fault that arose departing Goodna, the front unit was, for all intents and purposes, towing the rear unit (unable to get tractive power from the rear unit).

We departed Darra on time (after a rather slow run from Wacol to Darra) to start the express to Indooroopilly. Being that only the front unit was powering, it was very slow to accelerate. Arrival at Indooroopilly was still 2 minutes early...

Thankfully we were able to rectify the fault at Indooroopilly and departed from there with full power, but the fact that we were basically towing a dead unit between Darra and Indooroopilly yet still arrived at Indro 2 mins early is just plain ludicrous!

In the train's defence, once the thing was going at a constant speed it should have been alright because there was no accelerating/decelerating.

I do agree with your remark about the slowness of the express leg. I've heard the trains on the Darra - Indro leg often end up running very early. I think this part of the trip especially could be sped up by 2-3 minutes. Between Corinda and Indro the track is dead straight and has a speed limit of about 80 km/hr. The current timetable says trips take 10 minutes, meaning the train only averages a bit over 50 km/hr. 80 km/hr running most of the way would make the trip take about 6 minutes, but given the close timetabling of trains I do think a bit of fat should be built in - 7 minutes would probably be best. The change could be easily done just by shuffling the schedule around a bit on the Ipswich Line.

There's actually a fair amount of acceleration and braking between Darra and Indooroopilly to keep to the speed boards as much as possible.. (I thought we would end up running late, and wanted at least a small amount of time to try and fix the fault).

Corinda to Indro is far from dead straight also.. The normal route for the express trains has 60 out of Corinda (LH curve), 80 halfway to Sherwood, 90 after Sherwood (LH curve), 100 after the curve and through to before Chelmer, 90 before the RH curve, 80 before the platform, RH curve to the bridge across the river, 50 across the bridge, RH curve after the bridge, 70 after the curve into Indro.

I do agree though the timetable could easily drop at least 3mins and still be reliable. I usually don't go above 60 at all between Darra and Sherwood, get it up to 100 along the Graceville straight (simply cause it's fun going around Graceville p4 at 100), then slowly bring it back to 80 after Graceville platform, then coast till the bridge and reduce speed to 50 if needed and in to Indro.. Yet I still arrive early.

[SurfRail]

Gold Coast trains are still experiencing about 4 minutes of catch-up time per trip in the AM peak at South Bank.  Much more regular than before (presumably things are running better at the moment) - pretty much daily now.  Section ahead is generally clear to at least the bridge at this time.

Me and the GC timetable should go on a competition to see who can lose the most fat over the next year between South Bank and Central.

[ozbob]

^   

[HappyTrainGuy]

What about racing from South Brisbane to Central on a bike? See who is the fastest

[Golliwog]

What about racing from South Brisbane to Central on a bike? See who is the fastest

With Newman's bikes, all you'd need to bring is your own helmet! 

[Derwan]

Latest time frame is that we'll find out about Sector 2 timetables at the end of this year and they'll be implemented early next year.

Of course we've heard the promises before.  The ministerial statement in first post of this thread indicated that the customer feedback for sector 2 would begin in November 2011.  If the latest time frame is correct, it'll be a 2-year delay.

[petey3801]

Wasn't overly sure where to put this, so put it here. Last night I did a quick draw up of a draft Sector 2 timetable, including:

2tph FYG-KRY (all stops)
2tph FYG-BNH (all stops)
2tph BDT-VYS (current exp pattern)
2tph BDT-RST (exp EGJ-BHI)
2tph RST-DBN
2tph SHC-MNY (all stops)
2tph SHC-CVN (all stops).

This gives 4tph between Ferny Grove and Kuraby, Shorncliffe and Manly and the Airport. To achieve the Kuraby 4tph, I have the Gold Coast bound trains crossing to the DG at Y'pilly and back to the Up Sub before Coopers Plains, overtaking the Kuraby train around Rocklea-Salisbury, with the Kuraby train having an extra min or two in the table to allow that to happen. It results in a 14/16min timetable from Salisbury to Kuraby, but that's far from the end of the world.
On the inbound run, the train from the Coast towards the Airport uses the third road from Kuraby to Coopers Plains and crosses back on to the Down Sub from Coopers in to the City.
Kuraby trains turn back on P2.

On the Shorncliffe line, trains cross at Sandgate to form the 15min frequency and assumes p2 is available for use, which it soon will be.

Doomben trains run to/from the Shed, starting and finishing on p7 Roma Street. Doomben trains can be run as 3-car trains.

Airport to Roma Street trains terminate on p6 RST, with most through trains from the south using p7 (with some on p6).

I've checked all junction conflicts, everything seems to work quite well. I haven't put any extra time in the Gold Coast exp timetable for the cross to the DG at YLY, as the DG is faster than the Sub, so it should be able to make up the small amount of time lost crossing over there.

I've attached it here for you to have a look at. Train numbers are simply to show what trains form what service. At Cleveland, the incoming train forms the next outgoing train, but the incoming crew work the following service, like what happens at Ferny Grove during the day at the moment, ie:
1802 arrives CVN, worked by crew X, forms 1A01, which is worked out of CVN by crew Y.
1804 arrives CVN, worked by crew Z, forms 1A03, which is worked out of CVN by crew X. etc.

Let me know what you think!

[Cam]

Petey, I hope you're right about 15 minute frequencies on these lines.

[STB]

Kuraby makes for a better location for a 2 tier timetable on the Beenleigh line, simply because it's a natural junction station, as Manly, and it would boost the public transport in the area so people don't need to heavily rely on the BUZ routes, it may help with some of the capacity of services such as routes 130 and 150.  If it can be done, then it should be done.

By the way, instead of Coopers Plains, the Gold Coast trains should stop at Altandi or Fruitgrove to allow passengers to transfer onto the BUZ routes to access locations such as Griffith University and Garden City (Upper Mt Gravatt).  Coopers Plains is a bit of a dead area, with not much there to encourage upgrading existing bus routes (eg: route 123).

[petey3801]

By the way, instead of Coopers Plains, the Gold Coast trains should stop at Altandi or Fruitgrove to allow passengers to transfer onto the BUZ routes to access locations such as Griffith University and Garden City (Upper Mt Gravatt).  Coopers Plains is a bit of a dead area, with not much there to encourage upgrading existing bus routes (eg: route 123).

This is true. That's a pretty easy flick of the pen to change, doesn't really change the times at all which is good too. Just moves the 2min section along a bit.

Petey, I hope you're right about 15 minute frequencies on these lines.

As do I! It would be nice to finally have a reasonable service in some more places!


Talking to STB off-forum, I realised I forgot to mention my plans for Varsity as well.

As the turnback time is below minimum for traincrew for a 6-car train (8mins), I envisage the following:
Crew A work TG02 south and TP03 north:
Crew A workes TG02 from the north to Varsity, with Crew B boarding at Robina to act as a turnback crew at Varsity.
At Varsity, crew B take over and work the train back towards the north as TP01, with crew A traveling spare to Robina and leaving the service there.
Crew C work TG04 south to Varsity, with crew A boarding at Robina
At Varsity, crew A take over and work the train back to the north as TP03 with crew C traveling spare back to Robina, and so on and so forth.

This means the crews have adequate turnaround time, but the trains themselves aren't sitting around at a terminal station for a long time doing nothing, thereby saving rollingstock resources for other areas.

Shorncliffe is an 8-min turnaround, which is on the minimum allowed. This could be worked one (or both) of two ways:
1) Crew change at Shorncliffe, so crew A who work 1A01 in, get off, crew B get on and work it back as 1802.
Crew A waits for 1A03 and turn that train back as 1804, giving crews adequate turnaround time at Shorncliffe. As Shorncliffe is a crew depot, all crew facilities are already there.
OR
2) The incoming crew works the same train back towards the City, with an 8min turnaround (which happens at times now, particularly in peak, in some places).

Other turnaround times:
Ferny Grove: 11mins (Good)
Airport: 13mins (Good)
Doomben: 13mins (Good)
Roma St (ex BDT): 13mins (Good)
Shed (ex DBN): approx. 10mins (Good) - can also turnback at Normanby, as it is a 3-car shuttle run (even though i've numbered it a 1Bxx...)
Kuraby: 12mins (Good)
Beenleigh: 30mins, including time in the middle road (Good)
Manly: 11mins (Good)
Cleveland: Turnback crews, same as Shorncliffe option (1). Gives crews 35mins.

[techblitz]

Kuraby makes for a better location for a 2 tier timetable on the Beenleigh line, simply because it's a natural junction station, as Manly, and it would boost the public transport in the area so people don't need to heavily rely on the BUZ routes, it may help with some of the capacity of services such as routes 130 and 150.  If it can be done, then it should be done.

By the way, instead of Coopers Plains, the Gold Coast trains should stop at Altandi or Fruitgrove to allow passengers to transfer onto the BUZ routes to access locations such as Griffith University and Garden City (Upper Mt Gravatt).  Coopers Plains is a bit of a dead area, with not much there to encourage upgrading existing bus routes (eg: route 123).

my sentiment on cooper plains as well.
Its just a car park with virtually no-one doing bus transfers on the 124 etc which makes this station more transfer unfriendly than Salisbury.....yet it gets an express train stop during the off-peak?!!
It would have to be the only express stop station on the network which is not bus transfer friendly...all the rest are eg: manly,darra,mitchelton,loganlea.

indro an exception but at least the GCL stops are only a stones throw with better frequency than cooper plains bus routes.

[Cam]

Salisbury will be the obvious GC express stop when passenger services
use the standard gauge corridor. The GCL to Garden City and Indooroopilly
and 125 already stop near it and 110 and 115 stop a couple of hundred metres away on Beaudesert Rd. Good spot for a rail/bus interchange.

[techblitz]

12 mins southbank to altandi express by rail (express)
currently the 140/130 southbank to altandi is 22 mins

10 minute saving could definitely be a gamechanger for park rd/southbank pax in the off-peak to save some time and no doubt get a guaranteed seat on the train as opposed to the 140/130 which are known to have standees for most of the day on the outbound.

[James]

Petey, I think you're very optimistic. Call me a pessimist, but I doubt we'll only see 15 min frequency beyond the Ferny Grove line. Remember, Sector 1, while improving peak, off-peak only delivered frequency increases to Oxley and Darra - which was going to happen unless the timetablers did something truly dumb.

We can hope though. 15 min to Shorncliffe would be my next priority after 15 min to Ferny/Kuraby, so CAB/NBR trains can run express on the mains. Allows for the Gympie train to be kept off the suburbans too.

my sentiment on cooper plains as well.
Its just a car park with virtually no-one doing bus transfers on the 124 etc which makes this station more transfer unfriendly than Salisbury.....yet it gets an express train stop during the off-peak?!!
It would have to be the only express stop station on the network which is not bus transfer friendly...all the rest are eg: manly,darra,mitchelton,loganlea.

indro an exception but at least the GCL stops are only a stones throw with better frequency than cooper plains bus routes.

Indooroopilly is probably one of the best. 200m away is a connection to UQ (and for those game enough to squeeze onto an O/B 428 or 432, Kenmore/Chapel Hill), and the GCL stops which are close enough to be considered a direct connection with rail. Pax who are up to walking 500m can then connect to pretty much any bus in the west. There are also a lot of points of interest there too.

Manly gets quite a bit of activity, Darra is a natural bus transfer point, as is Mitchelton and Loganlea.

Coopers Plains is very much a nothing destination. There is the 124/125 (the latter with a decent-sized walk) to connect to, but aside from that connections are pretty appalling. Walk-up patronage is pretty ordinary as well. Industrial areas on one side and low-density housing on the other, and away from any high-usage corridors.

Also not really a fan of Salisbury interchange. It has GCL yes, but under the current bus network I would hardly consider the GCL an asset interchange wise. If I had the choice between stopping at Salisbury, Yeerongpilly or Altandi, I think Salisbury would be last on my list. Altandi is a much stronger interchange point. In fact, Petey's timetable would allow for a stop at Altandi which would result in 15 minute frequency. Big plus there, and a big win for rail on that corridor.

[techblitz]

the difference between fruitgrove and altandi is fruitgrove does not have 4 busy shopping centres within 7 minutes of the station
altandi has sunnybank plaza ,pinelands plaza,sunnybank hills plaza & Calamvale central.

Patronage levels along mains rd is a huge opportunity that wont decrease but increase. Time for QR to get their heads out of the sand and try and capture some of it. Or will BCC object and try to keep them ALL on the buses?! We do know that the current situation with all stops trains to altandi is simply not working. Even translink admitted that in their review.

[STB]

Just a point on notice.   I have heard from reliable sources that the 15min frequency is a lot more extended then you may think if government approves.  Also, Coopers Plains was chosen because, as I was told back in 2008, it was some deal made with Airtrain to offer extra parking opportunities for Airtrain passengers, and apparently Coopers Plains fitted the bill.  That was from one of the managers at the time.

The Planners at Qld Rail are also fully aware of the interchange opportunities at Altandi, RBOT met with the Planners last year and we told them about Altandi and the BUZ routes available.  As far as I'm aware, this has been repeated to the Planners in other meetings with them.  So, along with sorting out the interchanging problem at Park Road between Cleveland and Beenleigh/Gold Coast trains, which I have been told directly is at the top of their to do list of fixes in the sector II timetables, there is a strong potential that the Coopers Plains stop for the GC express trains will move under the sector II timetables.

[nathandavid88]

I hope you're right STB, as Altandi is a massive missed opportunity as it stands. It has a huge potential catchment serviced by multiple high frequency BUZ routes that stop at the station, and is effectively linked to the SE Busway by these buses, providing great interchange potential that doesn't currently exist between the GC Line and Busway until South Bank.

I don't know how many locals you would get off the BUZ routes though... 4tph is still going up against 8bph, and while the GC train would shave 10 mins off their trip, the all stations train adds 5 minutes to the trip, so a bit of a flip of the coin if it would be worth it for a seat and maybe a shorter trip, but maybe a longer one if they miss the express. Personally, its the connection to SE Busway locations that I see as the major benefit, better connecting the overall network.

Either way, the other big change they should do is install signage at Altandi to direct people to the bus stops at the northern exit, so they don't go out the Alconah Street exit, which is more visible from the pedestrian overpass, but further from the buses.

[petey3801]

Petey, I think you're very optimistic.

Don't worry, this was only an exercise in the 'What is possible' stakes, there is no hoping on this end that something like this timetable will be implemented! Basically just wanted to show it is possible to have 15min frequency to Kuraby without adding extra stops to the express and without any infrastructure investment (then again, some faster points on the Moorooka end of Y'pilly wouldn't go astray... x40 or x50 would be much nicer than the current x25!).

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/9/17/interstate-train-to-make-way-for-local-services

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Interstate train to make way for local services

More train paths will be opened up for Gold Coast commuters following an agreement between Queensland and New South Wales governments to change the timetable of the interstate passenger train.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said the changes for the Sydney-to-Brisbane XPT services meant less congestion on the line used for Gold Coast services.

"The interstate service currently requires two paths on the Gold Coast line between Roma Street and Salisbury – departing Roma Street at 6.30am and a second path at 7.30am during summer," Mr Emerson said.

"As a result of negotiations we will see the gradual removal of the XPT service from the morning peak period, allowing additional capacity for Queensland Rail to provide additional Gold Coast capacity.

"More than 9,000 passengers a day catch trains on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh lines in the morning peak and many have to stand long distances.

"A number of local Members have already raised the issue of overcrowding with me and this will allow us to get on and deal with the situation in the coming months."

From October 21 the XPT will be completely removed from the morning peak times, arriving at Roma Street station at 3:53am and departing at 4:55am.

The XPT service currently averages about 170 passengers a trip. Additional customer service arrangements will be put in place to meet the earlier arrival times.

Shifting the XPT is an initiative of the Brisbane Inner Rail Solution which was developed to address imminent inner-Brisbane capacity constraints on the rail network.

[ENDS] 17 September 2013

[minbrisbane]

Wow, so now intercapital rail is now even more unattractive!

It would have better arriving later in the morning I would have thought.

[nathandavid88]

Personally, I don't know see why anyone would catch a 14 hour train from Brisbane to Sydney when you can fly there in an hour and a half. I would imagine that the majority of XPT passengers disembark somewhere on the way, and don't take the whole route anyway.

I think the move is a necessarily evil, as it will benefit more people than it puts out. Realistically, will this free up much capacity? Two paths doesn't seem like much...

[minbrisbane]

True, good point - However it is useful for travel to Mid-North (Coffs Hbr etc)- comparable with driving.  (30m difference)

I think the problem could be more to do with the XPT's reliability.  It's often behind schedule.

[Cam]

I can't find a suburban rail or bus service that arrives in the CBD to meet the 4.55am departure. 

The XPT is scheduled to arrive the same time as the 3.53am Ipswich Line service is scheduled to depart. On a Sunday, the next Ipswich Line service departs Roma St at 6am. A two hour wait around Roma St station between 4am & 6am on a Sunday would provide a great welcome to Brisbane.

The connection to the Beenleigh Line on weekends is good provided the XPT is on time. Otherwise, you have up to a two hour wait.

The connections to these lines on weekdays involve about an hour's wait at Roma Street.

Will these times be for the 6 months of the year that NSW has daylight saving or all year round?

Surely a post AM peak arrival & departure would have been considered? Why wasn't it adopted?