Sector 2 (Stage 2) Timetable reviews

[ozbob]

Transport and Multicultural Affairs
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk
14/07/2011

Further rail timetable reviews looming

Following the successful implementation of new timetables for the Ipswich and Caboolture rail lines further timetable reviews for other lines will start later this year, Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk announced today.

Queensland Rail and TransLink will again rely on public input to deliver better train services for the Cleveland, Beenleigh, Gold Coast, Doomben, Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe lines.

Ms Palaszczuk said work on Stage 2 of the train timetable was underway with customers to have input from November this year.

"Stage 1 delivered more seats and greater reliability on the Caboolture, North Coast and Ipswich/Rosewood lines and I want to see that level of service afforded to all South East Queensland train passengers," Ms Palaszczuk said.

"We have shown we are serious about working with customers through feedback, consultation and information sessions.

"We received more than 2000 pieces of valuable feedback from members of the public during the first stage and we will be looking for that same level of feedback for Stage 2.

"This review will allow Queensland Rail to maximise our investment in the 64 new three-car trains, which are rolling off the production line at a rate of one per month.

"Currently, there's an average of 180,000 passenger journeys on the Queensland Rail network every day, so we need to make sure that those passengers get to where they need to go in the best and most efficient way possible."

Stage 1 of the new timetable recast started on June 6 - the largest improvement of rail services in more than 15 years - delivering more than 150,000 weekly train seats to the Caboolture, Ipswich, Rosewood, Richlands and North Coast lines.

"For the most part the biggest timetable change in 15 years has gone extremely well," she said.

"It's quite an achievement given more than 870 rail services and approximately 15,000 bus services operate across South East Queensland on a daily basis."

"When the Queensland Government launched the new Queensland Rail on July 1 last year, we promised a renewed focus on meeting timetables, reliability and customer service," Ms Palaszczuk said.

"We will continue to deliver improvement for passengers and remain focused on building a world class public transport system for South East Queensland."

==============================================================

[BrizCommuter]

No hints of how many extra seats to expect, whether there will be 15 minute off-peak, or how many services will cross the Merivale Bridge in the am peak. Place your bets now!

[somebody]

No hints of how many extra seats to expect, whether there will be 15 minute off-peak, or how many services will cross the Merivale Bridge in the am peak. Place your bets now!

A response I received to a recent query I lodged with Translink is that there isn't the demand for improved counter peak service in the phase 2 timetables on the Roma St/South Brisbane/South Bank/Park Rd stretch.  

EDIT: Thread for this service here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6186.0

[BrizCommuter]

No hints of how many extra seats to expect, whether there will be 15 minute off-peak, or how many services will cross the Merivale Bridge in the am peak. Place your bets now!

A response I received to a recent query I lodged with Translink is that there isn't the demand for improved counter peak service in the phase 2 timetables on the Roma St/South Brisbane/South Bank/Park Rd stretch. 

Given that many counter peak trains e.g pm peak Park Rd/South Brisbane/Bank to Roma Street services are standing room only BrizCommuter finds it difficult to believe that there is insufficient demand. Maybe another case of TransLink trying to suppress demand by running an inferior service?

[Jonno]

No hints of how many extra seats to expect, whether there will be 15 minute off-peak, or how many services will cross the Merivale Bridge in the am peak. Place your bets now!

A response I received to a recent query I lodged with Translink is that there isn't the demand for improved counter peak service in the phase 2 timetables on the Roma St/South Brisbane/South Bank/Park Rd stretch. 

The use of the demand excuse just shows the lack of understaning of transport with TL, TMR, Government and Opposition!!!

[Gazza]

is that there isn't the demand for improved counter peak service in the phase 2 timetables on the Roma St/South Brisbane/South Bank/Park Rd stretch.

How can there be demand for something that doesnt exist, Translink?

Ugh, transport planning is terrible in this state.

[david]

My bets:
- More 3 car units running around
- Gold Coasters stop all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby
- Beenleigh express pattern change - express Kuraby to South Bank
- Removal of expresses on Cleveland line
- Airport trains stop all stations between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills

My hopes:
- Creation of core-peak frequency of 6 minutes between Beenleigh and Kuraby
- Kuraby all-stoppers move to 9/12 minute peak frequency
- Manly/Cleveland moves to 9/12 minute peak frequency
- Ferny Grove moves to 6/12 minute peak frequency
- Shorncliffe/Airport moves to 18 minute peak frequency

[Arnz]

My bets:
- More 3 car units running around
- Gold Coasters stop all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby
- Beenleigh express pattern change - express Kuraby to South Bank
- Removal of expresses on Cleveland line
- Airport trains stop all stations between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills

Reading a earlier document somewhere in regards to Park Road and Gold Coast trains, I would think the Beenleigh/Gold Coast trains would run express Park Road to Kuraby on 6 minute headways.  Even if Platform 4 at Park Road is not available, assuming 3 minute signalling headways.   It would also enable peak UQ connections on Gold Coast trains.

9-12 min peak frequency for all-stopping trains to Manly/Cleveland would more than compensate for the loss of the x2 Express trains.  At least allows room for growth. 

[STB]

Okay this is what I suspect might happen:

Cleveland line
- change of express pattern - Lindum to Park Road stops only at Morningside
- all Cleveland line peak services (6am to 9am) run express
- Manly originators during peak hour
- consistent 12min frequency Lindum to Coorparoo; Cleveland to Manly - 15min frequency
- Off peak, crossing reverts back to Wellington Point with 20min turnbacks at Cleveland.
- Off peak, Cleveland to Shorncliffe corridor established

Beenleigh/Gold Coast line
- Gold Coast trains stop all stations to Kuraby then express via Tennyson to Roma Street (peak hour only).
- Beenleigh line express pattern changed to run from Kuraby to Park Road with all trains departing #3
- Kuraby starters (possible Bethania starters perhaps as well - this was considered back in 2008 for the March 08 timetables)

Doomben line
- Roma Street to Doomben corridor established
- Possibility of more 303s running during peak hour to free up slots on the suburbans for the Shorncliffe and Airport lines

Shorncliffe line
- express pattern deleted, all services go all stops during peak hour
- 9-12 min frequency established during peak hour (dependent on fixing up Sandgate to take two revenue services at a time)
- Off peak, Shorncliffe trains originate from Cleveland

Airport line
- express pattern deleted between Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction; conversion into all stop services

Ferny Grove line
- express pattern deleted; all peak services converted into all stop services
- 9min frequency established

[somebody]

I find those 12 minute cycles you are proposing somewhat unlikely.  I think they will be 15 minute cycles.

[BrizCommuter]

I find those 12 minute cycles you are proposing somewhat unlikely.  I think they will be 15 minute cycles.

Agree (again). 15 minute cycles are most likely on all lines, thus trains every 15, or 6/9 (or even 3/12) mins on each line at the point of merge. At a push, possibly 13 min cycles from the South in the am peak.

It seems from some of the speculation/foaming in this thread that some do not understand that trains from all lines have to fit in with each other between Park Road and Bowen Hills. Thus you cannot have one branch on 9 min frequencies, another on 12 min frequencies, and another on 15 mins, it just doesn't work.

[Derwan]

Shorncliffe line
- express pattern deleted, all services go all stops during peak hour
- 9-12 min frequency established during peak hour (dependent on fixing up Sandgate to take two revenue services at a time)
- Off peak, Shorncliffe trains originate from Cleveland

I can't see us getting better than a 15-minute frequency during peak.  The turnaround times are just too tight with the single track and platform at Shorncliffe.  They may still run empties past Shorncliffe to get a couple of smaller gaps.

The loss of expresses are a given.  There won't be any expresses between Northgate and Bowen Hills (with the possible exception of the Airport train if there is a specific deal to run those trains express.)

I must admit I haven't caught a train from Boondall in almost 2 weeks.  I've been driving to Northgate every day.  Being able to leave home in the morning and leave work in the afternoon at any time is just too attractive - even if the travel time ends up being slightly longer.  Trains from the Caboolture line are also less crowded.

[#Metro]

Would you accept a transfer of all shorncliffe services became a shuttle say at Northgate if it resulted in higher frequency? Say, every 10 minutes all day?

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Northgate&ll=-27.393191,153.069669&spn=0.001788,0.003275&sll=-27.427775,153.048488&sspn=0.103581,0.059965&client=safari&oe=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=au&t=h&fll=-27.393979,153.069302&fspn=0.001788,0.003275&z=19

[somebody]

Would you accept a transfer of all shorncliffe services became a shuttle say at Northgate if it resulted in higher frequency? Say, every 10 minutes all day?

Why do that?  Seems to be inflicting inconvenience for no reason whatsoever.

[#Metro]

Why do that?  Seems to be inflicting inconvenience for no reason whatsoever.

The current situation seems pretty inconvenient as it is. There are lots of subway systems around the world that operate subway-subway interchanges, there you have a frequent main line, you could operate a frequent branch to that without eating up further train paths. This would allow higher frequency.

What's.your.alternative.solution?

[somebody]

Just increase frequency on the existing line.  And run express Bowen Hills-Eagle Junction in peak.

EDIT: Poll here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6015.0

[O_128]

why bother though, Its still gonna be one train every half hour so unless u get the one lucky train that connects its useless.

[somebody]

why bother though, Its still gonna be one train every half hour so unless u get the one lucky train that connects its useless.

How about quoting what you are responding to!

No one has said that there should only be a train every half hour.

[O_128]

why bother though, Its still gonna be one train every half hour so unless u get the one lucky train that connects its useless.

How about quoting what you are responding to!

No one has said that there should only be a train every half hour.

Sorry I meant the connecting caboolture line train, and we live in queensland, look at all the other idiocies haha.

[somebody]

A reduction in frequency Bowen Hills-Northgate???  Death to that feeble plan!

[STB]

Would you accept a transfer of all shorncliffe services became a shuttle say at Northgate if it resulted in higher frequency? Say, every 10 minutes all day?

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Northgate&ll=-27.393191,153.069669&spn=0.001788,0.003275&sll=-27.427775,153.048488&sspn=0.103581,0.059965&client=safari&oe=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=au&t=h&fll=-27.393979,153.069302&fspn=0.001788,0.003275&z=19

As far as I'm aware of the safeworking rules, you cannot do turnbacks for revenue services at Northgate.  The only instance I think I've heard of that happening are tuition trains.

[ClintonL94]

My bets:
- More 3 car units running around
- Gold Coasters stop all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby
- Beenleigh express pattern change - express Kuraby to South Bank
- Removal of expresses on Cleveland line
- Airport trains stop all stations between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills

My hopes:
- Creation of core-peak frequency of 6 minutes between Beenleigh and Kuraby
- Kuraby all-stoppers move to 9/12 minute peak frequency
- Manly/Cleveland moves to 9/12 minute peak frequency
- Ferny Grove moves to 6/12 minute peak frequency
- Shorncliffe/Airport moves to 18 minute peak frequency

Beenleigh express pattern change - express Kuraby to South Bank

I agree with you here..

- Airport trains stop all stations between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills
- Gold Coasters stop all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby

This will slow down the Gold Coast line trains by 8 minutes - what's the point of a express train if it's going to take longer to travel?

- Creation of core-peak frequency of 6 minutes between Beenleigh and Kuraby

This is most unlikely going to happen in Phase 2..Where are the amount of trains going to come from? Beenleigh Depot only has a capacity of 15x3 car trains. Trains would have to travel from Mayne and I doubt there will be any trains to send down to Beenleigh during the core-peak! Perhaps 12 minutes from Beenleigh with your express pattern and 6-9 minutes from Kuraby all stops as you mentioned?

[O_128]

Id rather gold coast trains stop all stations from yerongpilly to the city rather than beenleigh to kuraby

[Derwan]

Would you accept a transfer of all shorncliffe services became a shuttle say at Northgate if it resulted in higher frequency? Say, every 10 minutes all day?

That's not gonna happen.

[david]

- Airport trains stop all stations between Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills
- Gold Coasters stop all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby

This will slow down the Gold Coast line trains by 8 minutes - what's the point of a express train if it's going to take longer to travel?

They did it to the Sunshine Coast line, so why not the Gold Coast line? Besides, reducing the express pattern creates more paths, which are in desperate need due to the lack of CRR. And if someone could confirm, I hear that the trains from GC regularly arrive 5 minutes early into South Bank, so I doubt stopping an extra couple of stations would inconvenience anyone, unless loadings become too great. Judging from my own observations, loadings shouldn't be too much of an issue on GC services.

- Creation of core-peak frequency of 6 minutes between Beenleigh and Kuraby

This is most unlikely going to happen in Phase 2..Where are the amount of trains going to come from? Beenleigh Depot only has a capacity of 15x3 car trains. Trains would have to travel from Mayne and I doubt there will be any trains to send down to Beenleigh during the core-peak! Perhaps 12 minutes from Beenleigh with your express pattern and 6-9 minutes from Kuraby all stops as you mentioned?

My definition of core-peak is between 7:45am and 8:15am at Central Station, a half-hour period. There are already 2 trains from GC running through, so to achieve a 6-minute frequency, only 4 services would be required to depart from Beenleigh (assuming GC stops all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby)

[david]

Id rather gold coast trains stop all stations from yerongpilly to the city rather than beenleigh to kuraby

Can you elaborate as to why you would prefer this? The constraint is between Beenleigh and Kuraby, rather than Yeerongpilly to Park Road. Stopping all-stations between Yeerongpilly and Park Road would force GC trains off the dual gauge and ineffectively uses this lovely piece of infrastructure.

[Arnz]

During part of the morning peak, the Dual Gauge is dedicated solely for the XPT, forcing inbound trains from Gold Coast onto the suburbans.

I do suspect the "9 skipped stops" express (exp Loganlea to Coopers Plains) may have to be applied to some morning services from the Gold Coast as well (during the times the XPT operates).

[david]

Forgot about the XPT for a moment there. My bad.

Perhaps it's time to kindly ask CountryLink for an earlier departure time from Brisbane?

[O_128]

Id rather gold coast trains stop all stations from yerongpilly to the city rather than beenleigh to kuraby

Can you elaborate as to why you would prefer this? The constraint is between Beenleigh and Kuraby, rather than Yeerongpilly to Park Road. Stopping all-stations between Yeerongpilly and Park Road would force GC trains off the dual gauge and ineffectively uses this lovely piece of infrastructure.

Its more from a service side of things, There is nothing really between kuraby and beenleigh, most of the stations bar woodridge, loganholme and kingston really should be closed as it would be faster for everyone, at least stopping all from yerongpilly would give a great peak frequency. Of course operationally it is flawed

[ClintonL94]

Forgot about the XPT for a moment there. My bad.

Perhaps it's time to kindly ask CountryLink for an earlier departure time from Brisbane?

To my understanding they require 1 hour to clean and prepare the train for departure back to Sydney, the train would have to arrive earlier into Brisbane meaning it would have to leave Sydney earlier as well.

[somebody]

Perhaps it's time to kindly ask CountryLink for an earlier departure time from Brisbane?

No way they would do that willingly.  Earlier than 7:30am?  An earlier arrival than 6:30am?  Not likely, maybe a later arrival/departure.

But I think that the DG isn't completely dedicated to the XPT.

They did it to the Sunshine Coast line, so why not the Gold Coast line?

Political clout!

My definition of core-peak is between 7:45am and 8:15am at Central Station, a half-hour period. There are already 2 trains from GC running through, so to achieve a 6-minute frequency, only 4 services would be required to depart from Beenleigh (assuming GC stops all stations between Beenleigh and Kuraby)

That's a very narrow definition.  Most transport planners think of "temporal spreading" as something which is advantageous.

Id rather gold coast trains stop all stations from yerongpilly to the city rather than beenleigh to kuraby

Can you elaborate as to why you would prefer this? The constraint is between Beenleigh and Kuraby, rather than Yeerongpilly to Park Road. Stopping all-stations between Yeerongpilly and Park Road would force GC trains off the dual gauge and ineffectively uses this lovely piece of infrastructure.

I would add that serving stops within the 20 minutes from Central mark allows for standing passengers to board without violating the service standard.

There isn't as much demand Trinder Park-Holmview as there is Dakabin-Morayfield.  1844 vs 2558.  Caboolture and Petrie are busier than Beenleigh and Kuraby also.  This means that the shadowing effect is more important north of Petrie than it is south of Kuraby.  The straighter and faster track also increases this, but offset by the lower number of stations.

[SurfRail]

They did it to the Sunshine Coast line, so why not the Gold Coast line? Besides, reducing the express pattern creates more paths, which are in desperate need due to the lack of CRR. And if someone could confirm, I hear that the trains from GC regularly arrive 5 minutes early into South Bank, so I doubt stopping an extra couple of stations would inconvenience anyone, unless loadings become too great. Judging from my own observations, loadings shouldn't be too much of an issue on GC services.

There are greater demands upon the North Coast line than the Beenleigh line for express trains, among which I will include freight and long-distance services, and a smaller population to serve.

The 5 minute early arrival into South Bank is common, but not clockwork.

The Gold Coast line travels via the dual-gauge track, as raised by others.  For the avoidance of any doubt, there are no platform faces on this track except at Park Road platform 4 (to be fixed in time for Phase 2), and South Bank/South Brisbane platform 3.  Unless you stop using it altogether, which would be insane, you cannot stop these express trains on the third track anywhere between Coopers Plains and Park Road.

I would rather have more stops somewhere between Beenleigh and Kuraby than being routed via Tennyson, for what it is worth.  The system needs to be kept as simple as possible.  I would accept all services stopping at Loganlea, and perhaps Woodridge - would that offer enough breathing space for Beenleigh trains?

[david]

I would add that serving stops within the 20 minutes from Central mark allows for standing passengers to board without violating the service standard.

The actual service standard is measured south of Beenleigh for Gold Coast trains. But, with consideration of the XPT, perhaps one or two trains from the Gold Coast may have to be slowed down between Coopers Plains and Park Road, whether that would be stopping all stations between Yeerongpilly and Park Road, or just having them crawl behind the train in front. I suppose this is where loading numbers really come into play. Alternatively, as some have suggested, running those services which are affected by the XPT through Tennyson could be done, however, with the current Ipswich timetable, paths are limited on both the mains and suburbans.

I would rather have more stops somewhere between Beenleigh and Kuraby than being routed via Tennyson, for what it is worth.  The system needs to be kept as simple as possible.  I would accept all services stopping at Loganlea, and perhaps Woodridge - would that offer enough breathing space for Beenleigh trains?

At the moment, it is possible to have Beenleigh services running at a 15 minute frequency during the peak period, if the Gold Coast express pattern is to be retained. The problem arises if we want an increased frequency. The question is - Is 4tph during peak acceptable for those on the Beenleigh line?

All can I say is, good luck to the planners. My head is spinning with all of these problems raised in this forum. Although I am only an amateur, I sense now that pleasing people in Phase 2 will be much more difficult than Phase 1. I look forward to seeing what they come up with 

[SurfRail]

Fixing the XPT is relatively easy.  It currently leaves Sydney Terminal just after 4pm for arrival into Roma St at 6:30am, then departs Roma St the next day around 7:30am for a 9pm arrival into Sydney. 

Delaying the whole thing by about 1.5 to 2 hours should fix it - at very least, it won't be travelling against the morning peak when leaving Brisbane, but may be travelling with it when arriving (no huge issue with this).

Daylight savings is a pain in the neck - perhaps they need to keep to the existing timetable during AEDST to avoid the conflicts.

[mufreight]

Fixing the XPT is relatively easy.  It currently leaves Sydney Terminal just after 4pm for arrival into Roma St at 6:30am, then departs Roma St the next day around 7:30am for a 9pm arrival into Sydney. 

Delaying the whole thing by about 1.5 to 2 hours should fix it - at very least, it won't be travelling against the morning peak when leaving Brisbane, but may be travelling with it when arriving (no huge issue with this).

Daylight savings is a pain in the neck - perhaps they need to keep to the existing timetable during AEDST to avoid the conflicts.

The reality is that they can not retimetable the XPT service without the avaliability of another complete XPT set which they do not have.
The utilisation of the XPT sets is the highest of any rail equipment in the countynd frequently should they have a major failure of one power unit one of the services is operated with a shortened consist and only one power unit until such time as the power unit with the major failure is repaired and restored to service.

[SurfRail]

Fixing the XPT is relatively easy.  It currently leaves Sydney Terminal just after 4pm for arrival into Roma St at 6:30am, then departs Roma St the next day around 7:30am for a 9pm arrival into Sydney. 

Delaying the whole thing by about 1.5 to 2 hours should fix it - at very least, it won't be travelling against the morning peak when leaving Brisbane, but may be travelling with it when arriving (no huge issue with this).

Daylight savings is a pain in the neck - perhaps they need to keep to the existing timetable during AEDST to avoid the conflicts.

The reality is that they can not retimetable the XPT service without the avaliability of another complete XPT set which they do not have.
The utilisation of the XPT sets is the highest of any rail equipment in the countynd frequently should they have a major failure of one power unit one of the services is operated with a shortened consist and only one power unit until such time as the power unit with the major failure is repaired and restored to service.

The cheaper alternative is of course to terminate it at Casino and bus people from there in the wee hours, which would be as popular as a brick to the face. 

Ultimately the network capacity is something we need more for QR commuter services than a once-per-day XPT, so if NSW is unwilling to make changes or update its fleet we shouldn't be dragged down by them too.

[Cam]

Daylight savings is a pain in the neck - perhaps they need to keep to the existing timetable during AEDST to avoid the conflicts.

A little off topic but perhaps the premier should be governing for the majority & implement daylight saving time in SE Qld. Even the government's own research indicates that the majority now favour it statewide.

The Qld economy needs any boost it can at the moment - in particular, the tourism sector. Tourists prefer daylight to darkness & most of them, like the majority of the population, are asleep at 5am so sunlight at this time is wasted.

To clear up any confusion on the matter:
If daylight saving time was adopted in SE Qld, sunset in October & March would be at about 7pm - instead of about 6pm. Similarly, sunset in SE Qld during December would be at about 7.30pm - instead of at about 6.30pm.

[petey3801]

Daylight savings is a pain in the neck - perhaps they need to keep to the existing timetable during AEDST to avoid the conflicts.

A little off topic but perhaps the premier should be governing for the majority & implement daylight saving time in SE Qld. Even the government's own research indicates that the majority now favour it statewide.

The Qld economy needs any boost it can at the moment - in particular, the tourism sector. Tourists prefer daylight to darkness & most of them, like the majority of the population, are asleep at 5am so sunlight at this time is wasted.

To clear up any confusion on the matter:
If daylight saving time was adopted in SE Qld, sunset in October & March would be at about 7pm - instead of about 6pm. Similarly, sunset in SE Qld during December would be at about 7.30pm - instead of at about 6.30pm.

Take yer daylight saving and stick it where the sun aint shining! We have no need for daylight saving up this far. Plenty of daylight in the summer months as it is. Then when you get further up and/or further west, it would simply be stupid to have daylight savings. And don't even start with that split timezone (SEQ has DST and rest of QLD doesn't) BS. How is that ANY DIFFERENT to the current situation of dealing with dual timezones? Except this time it'll be WITHIN THE SAME DAMN STATE!

[Derwan]

Take yer daylight saving and stick it where the sun aint shining!

We could argue about DST until the cows come home.  (Do they know to come home an hour earlier during DST?)

Perhaps we should stay on topic. 

[SurfRail]

Perhaps we should stay on topic. 

It's regrettable that it's even tangentially relevant to the Beenleigh line, but there it is.

Basically, having DST south of the border works out better for us from an operational perspective because the XPT is gone earlier before the real service density starts happening.