A fee for park n' ride?

[dwb]

Absolutely.

Payment via go card only.

How would you enforce it?  Pay & Display with Go Card payment?

I voted yes by the way, it really steams me up every time I see press releases touting the latest multi-million dollar carpark which provides parking spaces that cost $20K each or more.

Simple, with boom gates that go up and down on presentation of your go card. There would be no need to have staff enforce it then, you just simply can't get in or out without validation.

[dwb]

They would need to work on the feeder buses before they started charging though.

Not really.  Start charging and see the popular support for feeder buses increase massively.

I drive because my feeder bus stops running around 5pm. So I should have to pay to park at the train station because of this?

Simple yes.

[dwb]

If you use it, you should pay for it.
End of story.

Walk. Ride a bicycle. Drive and pay.
No need to link it to something else more difficult in an attempt to stall the process..

I agree, but I think bike lockers and racks should be free... because they have other "benefits" to the system and comparatively don't cost much.

[dwb]

They would need to work on the feeder buses before they started charging though.

Not really.  Start charging and see the popular support for feeder buses increase massively.

I drive because my feeder bus stops running around 5pm. So I should have to pay to park at the train station because of this?

Basically, yes.

What you are saying is that you can't choose where you live.

I think the ability to choose where you live is independent of the issue. You pay for the connection of the feeder bus in your ticket whether or not there is a service. You should pay for parking if you use it, irrespective of provision of service or not.

[dwb]

What you are saying is that you can't choose where you live.

No, but what I'm saying is people have moved to where they are currently to take advantage of rail and park n' ride arrangements as they existed. To dump an extra charge on without providing some form of compensation is a bit rich.

I don't agree.

[dwb]

The 'arrangements' of which you speak are NOT available.  The shopping centre management company provides the carparks so people can shop in the centre.  If that car space occupied by a bus commuter is hogged all day, people otherwise attracted to Chermside because of the 'convenient shopper parking' are not going to go there and are not going to shop their either.  The paid parking arrangement is a means of rooting out of the carpark all those all-day parkers who leave their car there and travel to the city via bus.

I don't know why Translink does not explore options for having buses run by churches and sporting fields, where the carparks lie idle during the week.  BCC control many of the sporting venues.  Maybe feeder buses could run from these places to Chermside.

That is quite a pragmatic response Stillwater that I believes deserves more thought. One thing I think you will come up against however is that the residents who live opposite the community facilities will get up in arms, they already do about the peaky parking demands of these services - eg complain about all the people parking outside the church on sunday or the pool on hot summer vacation days.

[dwb]

What you are saying is that you can't choose where you live.

No, but what I'm saying is people have moved to where they are currently to take advantage of rail and park n' ride arrangements as they existed. To dump an extra charge on without providing some form of compensation is a bit rich.

Bulldust. Besides, it would only be about 1/5 at even the lowest patronised station who currently takes advantage of park and ride.

[dwb]

If you charge for station car parking, some commuters will just drive all the way to work instead. Do RBoT readers really want to add to road congestion?

Moving towards correcting a really bad part of the system should not be shied away from. Let them drive, they'll soon switch back as the other parts of the system are corrected.

[dwb]

I selected other.  I believe any fee charged should be demand-based, not a fixed fee.  e.g. Park Rd has a small carpark which fills early in the day, whereas other stations such as Kingston has a quite large car park and there are  empty spaces available most days.

Park Rd parking might be worth $10 whereas Kingston might only be worth $2.  Also consider the possibility for people to just park in adjacent streets, the surrounding streets would then need to have parking regulations implemented and enforced.

I agree achiruel

[Arnz]

If you charge for station car parking, some commuters will just drive all the way to work instead. Do RBoT readers really want to add to road congestion?

Moving towards correcting a really bad part of the system should not be shied away from. Let them drive, they'll soon switch back as the other parts of the system are corrected.

So what part of the government do you work for?

[dwb]

I'm saying no to the majority. Yes if the bus stop/interchange is at major shopping centres like Westfield at Chermside (You couldn't call the Aspley Hypermarket a couple minutes away a major shopping centre? always giant portions of space available at midday) and No to train stations that already/will provide park and rides.

Why should I have to pay for a parking spot near a bus stop or train station when I might aswell pay a couple dollars extra to park in the city (Taking in bus/train fares), use my business/buildings free parking or just park in a side street near work or near the stop/station. The major draw card for park and ride facilities for me (And I'm sure there are others out there) was the free parking and just walking a few metres to the train or bus. Shouldn't the fares that we pay now go towards providing this rather than adding it on as an extra?

Why should I have to subsidise the use of a carpark at a railway station because someone is too lazy to walk there, get the local bus there, get a lift there or any other reason they park there. The provision of parking is highly inequitable across the system, those who benefit from it should pay (in some part) towards it.

[dwb]

What would you call it? 3 bucks to drive through a tunnel and 3 bucks just to park your car. For someone that works Monday-Friday for 40 weeks a year had to fork out an extra $600 on top of their fare which is still increasing what do you think they would call it?

Just because someone doesn't like paying IS NOT a good enough reason. By extension, I could say I don't like paying for anything and that everything should be free. Of course that is not going to work. If people want the benefit, they should pay for it. Simple.

I couldn't have put it better Tramtrain.

[dwb]

Just had a look at the journey planner and if I currently caught a bus it would take me 1h2m just to get to the station..... I think its quicker to take the 1.5km crawl there *facepalm*

1.5km, that's about a 20-25min walk, you should try it sometime, your stress and bloodpressure might go down.

[dwb]

I think it has more to do with the fact that encouraging people to drive to public transport is an extremely ineffective way of stimulating patronage, and spending millions of dollars on parking spaces represents millions of dollars that should go into services.  If people want to park their lump of steel in an unprotected open space for 12 hours of the day, why should every other commuter have to pay for that by missing out on better frequency and feeder buses?

Absolutely SurfRail!!

[somebody]

Why should I have to subsidise the use of a carpark at a railway station because someone is too lazy to walk there, get the local bus there, get a lift there or any other reason they park there. The provision of parking is highly inequitable across the system, those who benefit from it should pay (in some part) towards it.

It should be 0% subsidised.  I have no issue with parking being provided if it is done on commercial terms, but I do object to parking being subsidised.

[dwb]

If you charge for station car parking, some commuters will just drive all the way to work instead. Do RBoT readers really want to add to road congestion?

Moving towards correcting a really bad part of the system should not be shied away from. Let them drive, they'll soon switch back as the other parts of the system are corrected.

So what part of the government do you work for?

Actually I'm not currently employed, however if by your assertion that i work for government means that you think I'm hypocritical, you'd be wrong, I live by the same standards I set others.

[Arnz]

I believe any fee charged should be demand-based, not a fixed fee.  e.g. Park Rd has a small carpark which fills early in the day, whereas other stations such as Kingston has a quite large car park and there are  empty spaces available most days.

Park Rd parking might be worth $10 whereas Kingston might only be worth $2.  Also consider the possibility for people to just park in adjacent streets, the surrounding streets would then need to have parking regulations implemented and enforced.

Park Meters will probably be required on surrounding streets under this suggestion.  Especially for larger locations.

[dwb]

Why should I have to subsidise the use of a carpark at a railway station because someone is too lazy to walk there, get the local bus there, get a lift there or any other reason they park there. The provision of parking is highly inequitable across the system, those who benefit from it should pay (in some part) towards it.

It should be 0% subsidised.  I have no issue with parking being provided if it is done on commercial terms, but I do object to parking being subsidised.

For pragmatic reasons Simon I think it should be partially subsidised, but only partially. I would expect that the level of subsidy could be brought down over time as people get accustomed to paying for the additional service.

[dwb]

I believe any fee charged should be demand-based, not a fixed fee.  e.g. Park Rd has a small carpark which fills early in the day, whereas other stations such as Kingston has a quite large car park and there are  empty spaces available most days.

Park Rd parking might be worth $10 whereas Kingston might only be worth $2.  Also consider the possibility for people to just park in adjacent streets, the surrounding streets would then need to have parking regulations implemented and enforced.

Park Meters will probably be required on surrounding streets under this suggestion.  Especially for larger locations.

So be it. Or, let people park on surrounding streets, streets ARE afterall a PUBLIC resource and are NOT owned by people's houses who sit next to them.

[Arnz]

While you're all at it why not call for the privatisation the entire Park & Ride system under a PPP partnership.  Like the Car Parks in the CBD.

Government and investor raises prices to appropriate level, whilst they recover the money off people that use it.  

Not that I necessarily agree with the idea entirely, as I'd prefer a different paying system (similar to the user pays system someone else posted).  But still a suggestion to consider.

[dwb]

While you're all at it why not call for the privatisation the entire Park & Ride system under a PPP partnership.  Like the Car Parks in the CBD.

Government and investor raises prices to appropriate level, whilst they recover the money off people that use it.  

Not that I necessarily agree with the idea entirely, as I'd prefer a different paying system (similar to the user pays system someone else posted).  But still a suggestion to consider.

Because Translink and QR need that land for future purposes other than carparking.

[Arnz]

While you're all at it why not call for the privatisation the entire Park & Ride system under a PPP partnership.  Like the Car Parks in the CBD.

Government and investor raises prices to appropriate level, whilst they recover the money off people that use it.  

Not that I necessarily agree with the idea entirely, as I'd prefer a different paying system (similar to the user pays system someone else posted).  But still a suggestion to consider.

Because Translink and QR need that land for future purposes other than carparking.

TODs also have a private enterprise component (shops) if that's what you're referring to, I'm assuming?

What better way to develop a TOD by privatising the Park and Ride system if that's the case.

[dwb]

TODs also have a private enterprise component (shops) if that's what you're referring to, I'm assuming?

What better way to develop a TOD by privatising the Park and Ride system if that's the case.

Or duplications, realignments, new ramps, lifts etc etc.

[#Metro]

I would not privatise the car park (i.e. Sell off), maybe a lease or something at the most.
Get the problem to fund the solution- use car park revenue to fund feeder bus services.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just had a look at the journey planner and if I currently caught a bus it would take me 1h2m just to get to the station..... I think its quicker to take the 1.5km crawl there *facepalm*

1.5km, that's about a 20-25min walk, you should try it sometime, your stress and bloodpressure might go down.

Yeah, the walk may lower it until I get to the station. I'd rather keep the fare, drive all the way there and spend the extra time with the family than to take double the time to get to/from work each day, putting up with the grubs spitting everywhere, being hasselled by someone asking for a smoke/some train fare or using my mobile/public phone to call a mate, seeing lowlifes scratch the hell out of windows, observing people vandalising the outside of the train when they get off, people screaming across the platforms at 4am, seeing multiple police cars with the lights on at the station, having someone vomit everywhere because they drunk too much, people sniffing paint thinners from a bag or bottle with the "Security Guards" standing at the other end of the carriage talking etc.

[dwb]

Yeah, the walk may lower it until I get to the station. I'd rather keep the fare, drive all the way there and spend the extra time with the family than to take double the time to get to/from work each day, putting up with the grubs spitting everywhere, being hasselled by someone asking for a smoke/some train fare or using my mobile/public phone to call a mate, seeing lowlifes scratch the hell out of windows, observing people vandalising the outside of the train when they get off, people screaming across the platforms at 4am, seeing multiple police cars with the lights on at the station, having someone vomit everywhere because they drunk too much, people sniffing paint thinners from a bag or bottle with the "Security Guards" standing at the other end of the carriage talking etc.

Like I said HappyTrainGuy... sounds like you're not so happy and could do with a stress buster.

PS all that behaviour you talk about is a minority, not the norm.

[SurfRail]

Yeah, the walk may lower it until I get to the station. I'd rather keep the fare, drive all the way there and spend the extra time with the family than to take double the time to get to/from work each day, putting up with the grubs spitting everywhere, being hasselled by someone asking for a smoke/some train fare or using my mobile/public phone to call a mate, seeing lowlifes scratch the hell out of windows, observing people vandalising the outside of the train when they get off, people screaming across the platforms at 4am, seeing multiple police cars with the lights on at the station, having someone vomit everywhere because they drunk too much, people sniffing paint thinners from a bag or bottle with the "Security Guards" standing at the other end of the carriage talking etc.

In which case:

(a) Your problem is with the system itself, and whether or not you drive to access it is not the main issue; and

(b) I don't understand why you would be so keen to leave your car exposed and unprotected in a station car-park for half the day even if you got around that!

[Golliwog]

What you are saying is that you can't choose where you live.

No, but what I'm saying is people have moved to where they are currently to take advantage of rail and park n' ride arrangements as they existed. To dump an extra charge on without providing some form of compensation is a bit rich.

Bulldust. Besides, it would only be about 1/5 at even the lowest patronised station who currently takes advantage of park and ride.

I would beg to differ. Ferny Grove station IIRC has something like 600 car parks (more now that they've opened the extended car park) all of which are full. Taking the 600 car figure and the standard car occupancy of 1.2 people per car thats 720 people of the roughly 2000 who use it in peak each morning, which is 36% of its patronage. Not to mention the very large number who park in the surrounding streets.

I still disagree on the fact that just because my bus feeder doesn't run late enough that I should have to pay to park. The ticket on the bus would be included in the ticket price I would pay either way as its still within the same zone.

[somebody]

Still very expensively provided patronage.  I don't think anyone is arguing against extending the hours of feeders.

[#Metro]

I still disagree on the fact that just because my bus feeder doesn't run late enough that I should have to pay to park. The ticket on the bus would be included in the ticket price I would pay either way as its still within the same zone.

If demands exceeds supply then a price should be used to allocate the parks to those who want them the most, and encourage others
who can or are willing to make changes (i.e. walk, bike, carpool, catch bus). The money raised from pricing does not disappear- it can be used
to provide more services, expand alternative means of getting to the station (bicycle, feeder bus etc) as well.

In the off peak, when demand for parking drops, the price could drop too or be made free.

This is what prices are for- to moderate demand. And there is compensation-- in the form of improved services and more money for more buses etc.

Let's get real here. Some people have been getting free cake for a long time, and that's how they like it. Of course they are going to scream when someone asks them to contribute.

[Golliwog]

Still very expensively provided patronage.  I don't think anyone is arguing against extending the hours of feeders.

Certainly not. If the 362 ran later I would be more inclined to use it. Even though its only hourly, as it connects between the FG train line and the 385 its kind of like having a 30 minute frequency (at least where I am on the route anyway) which I could live with, though needing to work out which service is going to make which connection in the city would be a hassle. I would prefer a higher frequency but think the hours of operation is the more critical need. As an aside I caught this at around 11.40 today and it was decently patronised for such a run, roughly a dozen passengers heading to Brookside.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

I would prefer a higher frequency but think the hours of operation is the more critical need.

Most definitely. But at the very least, the buses on would-be feeder routes need to be running as (in)frequently as the trains, over the same (fairly decent) operating hours, i.e. more like the 465 was run, before they eliminated the shortworking.

[BribieG]

The day I have to pay to park my car at a station then that's the last train I'll ever catch. Simple. Just as I will never again go to Westfield Chermside when they introduce parking fees.

[#Metro]

The day I have to pay to park my car at a station then that's the last train I'll ever catch. Simple. Just as I will never again go to Westfield Chermside when they introduce parking fees.

And this is exactly how it is supposed to work. People who DON'T value the parking will go off and make alternative arrangements, freeing up car park spaces for people WHO DO value them! And because demand outstrips supply, not only is there money generated to improve the facilities and to put into the alternatives like more frequent feeder buses but car parks are freed up for those who value them.

This is exactly how pricing is supposed to work.

[BribieG]

I'm a 62 year old part pensioner with a partner who has had a stroke, living on Bribie Island with no prospect of moving from here, and we often need to go into the RBWH whatever. Tell me again about pricing and market forces? Sounds more like dog eat dog and the poor can go and get fckd, economic rationalism take the hindmost. Sorry just going to turn some more lights off.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

I'm a 62 year old part pensioner with a partner who has had a stroke, living on Bribie Island with no prospect of moving from here, and we often need to go into the RBWH whatever. Tell me again about pricing and market forces? Sounds more like dog eat dog and the poor can go and get fckd, economic rationalism take the hindmost.

Yes, you're one of many people who have been sacrificed for some social experiment. Meanwhile, on a certain other forum (no, not ATDB), all you hear is "We have low unemployment," "We've never had it so good" yada yada yada, by individuals who automatically assume that anyone who's struggling is "lazy" and "uneducated." Heads in the sand, much?

[#Metro]

I'm a 62 year old part pensioner with a partner who has had a stroke, living on Bribie Island with no prospect of moving from here, and we often need to go into the RBWH whatever. Tell me again about pricing and market forces? Sounds more like dog eat dog and the poor can go and get fckd, economic rationalism take the hindmost. Sorry just going to turn some more lights off.

Special needs are NOT a reason to prevent pricing full stop.
Special needs ARE a reason to introduce special measures to cater for those needs.

Hence pensions, welfare, TL access passes, discounts, disabled parking etc...

With the money raised from pricing, there will be more than enough cash raised from Those Who Can Pay to give to Those Who Cannot Pay.

Just remember... once you pay the money IT DOES NOT DISAPPEAR!!! You can use it for expansion, feeder buses or welfare.

[Gazza]

Just as I will never again go to Westfield Chermside when they introduce parking fees.

How many people actually spend more than 3 hours shopping anyway?

Special needs ARE a reason to introduce special measures to cater for those needs.

Perhaps we shouldn't have assumed that people would realise this would be the case. Obviously yes disabled permit holders would get free parking.

What are peoples views on parking charges at train stations in Perth?

[cartoonbirdhaus]

Special needs ARE a reason to introduce special measures to cater for those needs. Hence pensions, welfare, TL access passes, discounts, disabled parking etc... With the money raised from pricing, there will be more than enough cash raised from Those Who Can Pay to give to Those Who Cannot Pay.

Yes! Some might call it "socialist," but a bit of wealth distribution like that is something we'd had for years, and it did no harm. Provide feeder buses for instance, and someone on a pension may not need to pour what little money they have into keeping a car registered and operational.

[dwb]

I would beg to differ. Ferny Grove station IIRC has something like 600 car parks (more now that they've opened the extended car park) all of which are full. Taking the 600 car figure and the standard car occupancy of 1.2 people per car thats 720 people of the roughly 2000 who use it in peak each morning, which is 36% of its patronage. Not to mention the very large number who park in the surrounding streets.

Ferny Grove is unique in that it provides access to Samford, so yes a certain number of people who use this station do by driving. I'd still argue a better investment than for instance doubling the carpark would be to extend the hours of the feeder service. It should be noted that this feeder service itself is quite new and came about more or less as the result of Tristan Peaches' efforts to organise a push for it in the community.

Across the network however the overall proportion of customers who use park and ride is miniscule. I'm sick on money being spent on car parks that do nothing to improve the ride for the rest of us.

route
399
Samford to Ferny Grove
servicing Samford Valley, Samford Village & Ferny Grove
Monday to Friday
showing route number 399 399 399 399
major stops am pm
Samford Valley – Mt Glorious Rd cnr Mt O'Reilly Rd * 5.50 6.50 6.01 6.43
Highvale – Showgrounds Dr * 5.55 6.55 6.04 6.46
Samford Village – Mt Glorious Rd cnr Mary Ring Dr 6.10 7.10 6.15 6.57
Ferny Grove station, Coonavalla St – bus arrives 6.22 7.22 6.25 7.07
Ferny Grove station – train departs 6.30 7.26 6.28 7.28
Central station – train arrives 7.00 7.55 6.58 7.58
route
399
Ferny Grove to Samford
servicing Ferny Grove, Samford Village & Samford Valley
Monday to Friday
showing route number 399 399 399
major stops am pm
Central station – train departs 5.37 5.17 5.57
Ferny Grove station – train arrives 6.08 5.43 6.26
Ferny Grove station, Coonavalla St – bus departs 6.30 5.48 6.30
Samford Village – Mt Glorious Rd cnr Mary Ring Dr 6.40 5.58 6.40
Highvale – Showgrounds Dr * 6.55 6.04 6.46
Samford Valley – Mt Glorious Rd cnr Mt O'Reilly Rd * 7.06 6.12 6.54