PTAG: Whatever happened to the 6 and 12 month tickets ?

[Fares_Fair]

Whatever happened to the 6 and 12 month tickets ?

The Minister stated after the Train Boycott of 17 March, 2011 that the first thing on the new PTAG's agenda was to look at 6 and 12 month tickets,
so it could be presented in time for the State budget being handed down next Tuesday.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

Wasn't discussed at the introductory PTAG meeting. 

I expect fare structure to be on the agenda for the next one, as community reps will be raising their three chief concerns.

[Fares_Fair]

Thanks Bob,

I can only hope that money has somehow been allocated for it in next Tuesday's State budget, as well as periodic options.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[mufreight]

I would like to be wrong on this one but the odds are that there will be money allocated for a study and they will then do nothing further than employ another seat pollisher at either Translink or Queensland Transport to polish the mirror and look into it, cheaper than actually doing something

[Gazza]

as community reps will be raising their three chief concerns.

Ooh, were  we gonna nut out RBoT's "Top 3" ?

[#Metro]

What? you mean

Frequency
Frequency
Frequency

? 

[Zoiks]

They are not needed. Lets just get a daily and weekly cap that is auto applied and be happy with it 

[BrizCommuter]

They are not needed. Lets just get a daily and weekly cap that is auto applied and be happy with it 

+1

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

GoCard incentives till on the cards: Minister

GoCard incentives till on the cards: Minister
Daniel Hurst
June 15, 2011 - 3:00AM

Queensland's transport minister says she is still looking at potential Go Card incentives, following complaints the State Budget yesterday contained no ticket price relief.

Public transport lobbyists had been calling for periodical saver options to be introduced on the smartcard system amid anger over the removal of daily, monthly, six-monthly and yearly tickets.

The state opposition yesterday condemned the government after it failed to act on the matter in the final budget before the next election.

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk had previously hinted at possible ticketing improvements around Budget time.

In April, she told brisbanetimes.com.au commuters were "very disappointed that the six-month and the 12-monthly passes were taken away" and she had asked for "urgent" advice on restoring such incentives.

"I want to really have a meeting of this [new transport] committee in May, at least by the end of May, because we've got [the] budget in June, so we'll need to be making a decision about these six-monthly and 12 monthly passes pretty quickly," she said at the time.

In May, Ms Palaszczuk told Parliament she took the issue seriously and discussed it with Treasurer Andrew Fraser.

Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said he was disappointed fare enhancements, such as a Canberra-style automatic monthly cap, were not included in the Budget.

"I think it's actually a missed opportunity," he said.

"I think there is a real demand for some further fare enhancement to the Go Card to possibly include daily fare capping and some further periodical option."

Opposition transport spokesman Scott Emerson said the government's failure to deliver any public transport fare relief was a blow to commuters who were already struggling with annual fare hikes.

"What they [commuters] say to me is that it seems like this government doesn't want people to use public transport," he said.

Ms Palaszczuk last night called on the opposition to stop criticising public transport and said fare enhancements were still on the table.

"The Public Transport Advisory Group I convened is looking at this very issue," she said in a written response.

"The group met formerly for the first time two weeks ago [and] Go Card will be high on the agenda at the next meeting."

The LNP is yet to commit to fare enhancements if it wins government, but Mr Emerson said the party was "very much aware" of the cost pressures facing transport users.

Meanwhile, the State Budget allocates $1.8 billion to transport infrastructure in the coming financial year, including funds for the Gold Coast light-rail project and the Northern Busway.

Other budgeted projects include railway and bus station upgrades and $97 million for new passenger train sets.

The Budget also devotes $12 million to early stage works for the $1.5 billion Moreton Bay Rail Link, a joint state, federal and local government project.

Ms Palaszczuk said the government was "getting on with the job of delivering sustainable transport solutions for future generations".

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/gocard-incentives-till-on-the-cards-minister-20110614-1g214.html#ixzz1PGsbBP4C

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail 15th June 2011 page 11

No relief for public

[mufreight]

From the CM article it would seem that the Minister and the Government are simply using the PTAG as another delaying tactic, another case of being seen to be doing something to placate the voters while in fact with the intention of once again doing nothing.      for this effort.

[#Metro]

From the CM article it would seem that the Minister and the Government are simply using the PTAG as another delaying tactic, another case of being seen to be doing something to placate the voters while in fact with the intention of once again doing nothing.      for this effort.

Yes. It looks like PTAG may be being used as an "accountability airbag".

[Derwan]

They are not needed. Lets just get a daily and weekly cap that is auto applied and be happy with it 

Exactly.  This is what we should be pushing for, not periodic options.  It's what the majority of RailBOT members want:  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6084.0

Periodic tickets are a relic of the past.

[Stillwater]

Whenever governments are under pressure about something, they set up a committee (PTAG) to 'look into it'.  Then, when asked 'what are you doing about this', the ministerial response is 'I have a committee looking at that and I anxiously await its findings' or some similar words.  The ideal time to announce fare caps or six and 12 month periodic tickets, or whatever, would be in the lead up to a state election.  The government's actions to date would suggest this is the timetable it is working towards.

[SurfRail]

Periodic tickets are a relic of the past.

If they were, why is it that virtually every world-class network with smart cards still offers them?

They are no more a relic of the past than steel rails are.

Both are valid means of providing incentive to travel, and frankly periodicals are less complicated than capping and desired by more people at large.  There is no reason why both cannot be provided.

[somebody]

Periodic tickets are a relic of the past.

If they were, why is it that virtually every world-class network with smart cards still offers them?

They are no more a relic of the past than steel rails are.

Both are valid means of providing incentive to travel, and frankly periodicals are less complicated than capping and desired by more people at large.  There is no reason why both cannot be provided.

If both are provided, I would be dead against there being a financial incentive to use the periodicals vs the automatic capping. You shouldn't have to plan ahead your week's travel to decide on the most attractive ticket.

I don't think your comparison of periodicals vs steel rails is valid either.

[SurfRail]

I don't think your comparison of periodicals vs steel rails is valid either.

Beg to differ. 

Steel rails were previously not continuously welded, laser aligned, concrete-sleepered etc - however the basic concept has not changed in over 100 years.

Periodicals can be made available through go card technology - however the basic concept does not need to change because we have whizz-bang new ticketing options.  Periodicals could solve the problem of fixed fares being imposed on people and therefore to my mind represent an attractive option.

[Derwan]

If they were, why is it that virtually every world-class network with smart cards still offers them?

Because they're listening to people who are living in the past.

Both are valid means of providing incentive to travel, and frankly periodicals are less complicated than capping and desired by more people at large.  There is no reason why both cannot be provided.

Either way people will have to touch on and off for every journey.  If people know they will get the same discount without having to think about their travel plans and paying a large amount upfront, I'm sure they will accepting of an automated capping system.  Providing both is a waste of money.

[somebody]

Periodicals could solve the problem of fixed fares being imposed on people and therefore to my mind represent an attractive option.

I was thinking about that after I posted.  Could this actually work?  If you don't have fixed fares within your periodical zone, then how are you going to stop people just not touching on/off when they travel outside it?

[SurfRail]

Periodicals could solve the problem of fixed fares being imposed on people and therefore to my mind represent an attractive option.

I was thinking about that after I posted.  Could this actually work?  If you don't have fixed fares within your periodical zone, then how are you going to stop people just not touching on/off when they travel outside it?

Probably not 100%, but the majority of people have predictable travel habits.

[ozbob]

Myki has periodicals (myki pass) and pay as you go (mykimoney).  People touch on and off for both, no real issues.

[SurfRail]

Because they're listening to people who are living in the past.

There we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  If you are trying to tell me with a straight face that Deutsche Bahn, JR and the SNCF are all living in the past and that we are cutting edge, best of luck to you!

Either way people will have to touch on and off for every journey.  If people know they will get the same discount without having to think about their travel plans and paying a large amount upfront, I'm sure they will accepting of an automated capping system.  Providing both is a waste of money.

Most people have consistent travelling habits, and there is no reason why the myki methodology of a floating balance and pre-loaded seasonals cannot work here to cater to them.  What sort of "waste of money" would be involved anyway?

[somebody]

Periodicals could solve the problem of fixed fares being imposed on people and therefore to my mind represent an attractive option.

I was thinking about that after I posted.  Could this actually work?  If you don't have fixed fares within your periodical zone, then how are you going to stop people just not touching on/off when they travel outside it?

Probably not 100%, but the majority of people have predictable travel habits.

Nothing would stop you getting a periodical Milton-Fortitude Valley and using it to/from Darra every day.  For the few times you are caught you would easily pay the fines from the savings.  I knew someone that did this Padstow-Wynyard IIRC, with a weekly ticket Wynyard-Redfern.

[Zoiks]

Exactly. Im sorry but the relic here is the periodical.

Caps are not hard to understand. They are easier to use.

Hell, I would argue that we could use the orange light on the gocard scanners for a "capped" trip. Everything else is green unless there is an issue which pops up a red.

With periodicals you also might miss out on your discount if your sick/go on holiday/move etc.

With the cap it adjusts as you go. Travel Travel Travel BAM Free Travel Hooray 

The periodical cannot and should not replace a capped fare structure

[somebody]

Hell, I would argue that we could use the orange light on the gocard scanners for a "capped" trip. Everything else is green unless there is an issue which pops up a red.

Disagree with this one.  Should remain yellow for concession trips only.  That is to make it obvious to authorities that a concession trip has been undertaken.

You can have different text though.

[Zoiks]

I don't see the need for the yellow for concession. Any old sod can be a student from a 14 year old to a 40 year old. Never seen, heard or experienced anyone being pulled up for swiping through on a concession

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

[dwb]

I think now is the time to innovate not go back. If they go back that option is here forever.

[somebody]

I don't see the need for the yellow for concession. Any old sod can be a student from a 14 year old to a 40 year old. Never seen, heard or experienced anyone being pulled up for swiping through on a concession

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

Perhaps they should be checked sometimes.  I think they do it in NSW.

[Zoiks]

Perhaps they should. But they dont.
I think it would be far more useful for the commuter to see a yellow and know their on capped fares rather then a yellow for concession for a ticket inspector that may be at a gate who decides to investigate the matter for once in their life.

[Gazza]

 A few seem keen on the idea of periodicals, but what hasn't been discussed is what sort of price level they will be set at. Even if we did get them, where is the guarantee the government would set them at a price level that saves much money compared to the Frequent user schemes discounts. It could be slightly amusing if say a 6 monthly saved only 10% or so compared to pay as  you usage.

I mean, it's what it boils down to really, people wanting something for nothing.

[Zoiks]

And thats it.
Everyone wants to pay less taxes so they can buy their big screen tv's and new house and car. But they then want to pay less for health, education, PT etc. It doesnt work that way. :conf

[#Metro]

This is how it is supposed to be. There are pressures pushing in either direction about where the line will be drawn. Let's not get too complex. One cap (daily perhaps?) would be fine with me.

[somebody]

Perhaps they should. But they dont.
I think it would be far more useful for the commuter to see a yellow and know their on capped fares rather then a yellow for concession for a ticket inspector that may be at a gate who decides to investigate the matter for once in their life.

How is that useful though?  Advertising that a trip already taken is free?  The decision to use PT has already been made.

So long as periodical options do not result in discounts for 9-5 (or 8-4) commuters, I wouldn't mind too much.  If they do, then the base price needs to increase to compensate, which is just a bad policy.

[Zoiks]

I guess its more a reinforcing point that this trip was free. See that enough and it starts being cemented in peoples mindsets.

I am very much against periodicals in any sense. They are clumsy and just don't make sense. 9-5ers should not have their journeys discounted. They are the reason my we have such capacity problems in the first place.

[PollyWouldLikeASeat]

Aren't you guys missing the point.

We want people to catch public transport.

Discounts - a cap or a periodical might encourage more people to take public transport instead of driving to work.

Yes, peak hour is full, but then maybe more services are needed.  The roads are busy too, not just the trains.  Most peole really don't have that much leeway in what times they are expected to be present at work.

[somebody]

Aren't you guys missing the point.

No, we aren't.  If you want to attract people to PT with cheaper fares, you should achieve that by reducing the base price, not giving discounts to those responsible for a large portion of the costs.

[Fares_Fair]

I guess its more a reinforcing point that this trip was free. See that enough and it starts being cemented in peoples mindsets.

I am very much against periodicals in any sense. They are clumsy and just don't make sense. 9-5ers should not have their journeys discounted. They are the reason my we have such capacity problems in the first place.

Great idea, lets all just drive. 

Regards,
Fares_fair.

[ozbob]

Good points Polly'  capping does encourage public transport utilisation above the two journey commute.  Periodical ticketing in one form or another also acts as a driver for public transport use.  If someone is prepared to put a reasonable sum of money up front, some discount for travel is quite reasonable.   The issue for Government and TransLink is the price point and the mechanism.  I don't think the government or TransLink is interested in bringing back paper periodical tickets.  Some form of progressive discount on the go card might be one option.  Another is what myki does (myki pass), another could be auto capping as myway.  I have no doubt that a lot of work has already been done by TransLink on further fare enhancements, remember TL has always indicated more to come.  Should be an interesting time ticket wise the rest of this year.

[#Metro]

Yes, peak hour is full, but then maybe more services are needed.  The roads are busy too, not just the trains.  Most peole really don't have that much leeway in what times they are expected to be present at work.

I agree, however peak hour capacity expansion is expensive as the system is at capacity during peak hour-- which means that an increase in PT supply can only come about buy buying more concrete (or removing seats, getting rid of express, putting in an extra door(s) in trains - I hear lots of squealing when any of these are suggested!!!).

I think some clarity would come about if we asked the question "what is the purpose of a PT fare cap?"
when we have an answer to that then the picture will become clearer.

I don't think the purpose of a fare cap should be to encourage more peak hour 9-5 commuting. That already happens and the system is loaded up to capacity without needing one.
Off-peak and weekends are a different story, but I don't really notice the price difference there. It is the travel in the off-peak that should be encouraged.

[Zoiks]

A cap wouldnt be an incentive to the 9-5 travel. It is an incentive to go elsewhere outside of that. On weekends, to the movies, friends place etc.

9-5 costs us all dearly. We have the network running at breaking point for what 2-3 hours a day and not even breaking a sweat outside that. As such I believe there should not be a discount for the 9-5er. If they want more services they should pay for it as they are the ones that are costing us the most. What we should be encouraging is more people to travel outside of the 9-5.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying we should be ignoring the 9-5ers, far from it. But giving them a discount is just silly.