Overcrowding Shocker : never in 12 Years ...

[ozbob]

Sources have advised loading on the 5.22pm service was normal peak loading (standing room only but this is case with most trains at that time). One minute to load (yesterday 2 min) at Central.  Spare capacity lead car and trailing (last) 2 cars.  I think it will balance out in time.

[BrizCommuter]

- Run an extra Nambour train 3 min behind the 5:22pm from Central which would now terminate at Caboolture - there is a 9 min gap after this service (which would also allow an Ekka loop service). ?? could this extra Nambour service overtake the preceding Caboolture train at Narangba so that it can skip Dakabin to Morayfield to save a few mins too.

This slot is already taken by the 5:19pm Petrie all-stoppers.  

Not really. It would delay the Petrie all stoppers by 1 min at Lawnton (assuming 3 min signalling headway).

[SurfRail]

The tenor of a lot of the comments seems to be "I arrived for the 7:33 express and found it has been replaced."

With time, I think people will realise they won't need to meet the same train every day given the even spacing and regularity of stopping patterns, which is rather the point of this timetable.

One of the major principles they have not talked up but which the planners were pushing in consultation is the ability to upgrade this timetable easily by slotting further services in, in periods that are multiples of 3 (3min, 6min etc) when demand requires and rollingstock allows.  It is very forward looking in that sense.

Now, if only they can get another multiple of 3 in there in the off-peak (15min).

[BrizCommuter]

The tenor of a lot of the comments seems to be "I arrived for the 7:33 express and found it has been replaced."

Seems to be quite a few resistant to change, but a not surprising amount of positive comments too in the CM.

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-timetables-how-did-they-go.html

[Fares_Fair]

The Transport Minister, Annastacia Palaszczuk MP, came down to platform 6 this afternoon to see the 5:22pm service.

I briefly met the Minister and advised that today's numbers were down slightly with commuters on the platform (not as big a crowd as yesterday)
but that the train already had 20 people standing in 1 carriage at Milton as it made its way into Central.

I and the Ministers advisor counted 60 people standing in our carriage, and 72 seated.
There was an announcement of some extra standing room only in the lead and trailing cars.
I must respectfully dispute the information you received Bob.
There was no equalisation until after Morayfield commuters exited the train.
Equalisation being equal seats to match standing passengers.

I thanked the Minister for coming down to see first hand the situation on the platform.
She said that they would monitor the service this week.

I offered to provide the train solutions suggested by a RBoT member here, to forward onto Kevin of QR, who accompanied the Minister.
I had reports of 15 people standing in 1 carriage of the later Gympie North ICE train tonight, as opposed to 3 yesterday.
I believe that the numbers were down because many crushees of June 6 had moved to a later train, the GYN or the earlier train.

I wrote to the Minister last night and requested her immediate intervention as well as an invitation to see things first hand on the platform.
Was a nice surprise before we all crammed onto the train.
I included the pictures of the crowded service seen here on this post.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Stillwater]

The fact that the minister would view the situation personally speaks volumes.  Hats off to her.  Although I am reminded of the time when a ratepayer rang the former Mayor of Toowoomba (Di Thorley) one night to complain about excessive noise from a band in the hall down the road.  The next thing the woman knew, the mayor was at the door and asked to come inside the house.  Di Thorley sat in the lounge room for about 10 minutes, rose to her feet and said 'that is not a noise problem' and strode to the front door and left.  Now that's democracy in action!   

[ozbob]

There was standing room.  Trains at peak are loaded, on all lines, not everyone will initially get seats.

I and the Ministers advisor counted 60 people standing in our carriage, and 72 seated.

That is 6 x 130 = 780 pax.  That is a lot less than many other services at peak.  Ideally though it should be 750 pax max.  Remember the trains are permitted to carry up to 1000 pax for short durations. That is uncomfortable though.

Those reports were reliable and very informed sources and you yourself have confirmed that with your count.  Honestly if you travel at peak times there will be heavy loadings, that is reality.  

The  immediate solution is simple, the Nambour train needs to commence from Roma St. That way it is not acting as a counter peak shuttle inbound from Richlands

For those of us who travel on the Ipswich line regularly we often find that a through train for Caboolture etc. is changed as it passes through the CBD to a Bowen Hills, and another service then runs through.  In this case just run the Nambour train ahead of the Richlands train.

In the longer term improve the counter peak frequency so it is not impacting on a single service.

I did speak with the Minister yesterday.  I think it is excellent that the Minister is keen to sort the issues as is Queensland Rail.

[Fares_Fair]

There was standing room.  Trains at peak are loaded, on all lines, not everyone will initially get seats.

I and the Ministers advisor counted 60 people standing in our carriage, and 72 seated.

That is 6 x 130 = 780 pax.  That is a lot less than many other services at peak.  Ideally though it should be 750 pax max.  Remember the trains are permitted to carry up to 1000 pax for short durations. That is uncomfortable though.

Those reports were reliable and very informed sources and you yourself have confirmed that with your count.  Honestly if you travel at peak times there will be heavy loadings, that is reality.  

The  immediate solution is simple, the Nambour train needs to commence from Roma St. That way it is not acting as a counter peak shuttle inbound from Richlands

For those of us who travel on the Ipswich line regularly we often find that a through train for Caboolture etc. is changed as it passes through the CBD to a Bowen Hills, and another service then runs through.  In this case just run the Nambour train ahead of the Richlands train.

In the longer term improve the counter peak frequency so it is not impacting on a single service.

I did speak with the Minister yesterday.  I think it is excellent that the Minister is keen to sort the issues as is Queensland Rail.

I agree Bob, it is very good. I  sincerely thanked the Minister for coming down to see the situation as requested.  
I also sincerely thank you for your representations and advice.

I did another media interview yesterday and when asked who I wanted to be identified as I told them a commuter of 12 years to avoid the RBoT member issue.
I did stress that a RBoT member had a solution to the issue and that it is a new 5:16pm service.

Kind regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

I don't think making the train a Richlands starter will help much.  It would remove a convenient service from Milton workers who live Dakabin and beyond though.

I think it is just not happenning as it would make the counter peak service non-clockface.

It is clear that every 6 minutes there is a slot reserved for Dakabin-Morayfield services, and also every 6 minutes there is a slot reserved for Virginia-Lawnton.  I do not think they will break this.  Any solutions we want to put forward would not be adopted if they interfere with these plans.

[Arnz]

I don't think making the train a Richlands starter will help much.  It would remove a convenient service from Milton workers who live Dakabin and beyond though.

I think it is just not happenning as it would make the counter peak service non-clockface.

It is clear that every 6 minutes there is a slot reserved for Dakabin-Morayfield services, and also every 6 minutes there is a slot reserved for Virginia-Lawnton.  I do not think they will break this.  Any solutions we want to put forward would not be adopted if they interfere with these plans.

5:04 Caboolture exp
5:07 Petrie all-stops
5:10 Caboolture exp
(5:13 Petrie all-stops) - Future slot
5:16 Caboolture/Nambour exp- NEW slot (Roma Street starter)
5:19 Petrie All stops
5:22 Caboolture exp (ex-Richlands)

I dont see what the problem is here.. It's only filling in a 6 min gap that early (consider it a early christmas present for Northern commuters), and theres still one gap for a extra Petrie all-stoppers.

The only issue is finding a train and crew.  If the 5:16pm takes the same running pattern as the 5:22, then it departs Caboolture 6 minutes early than current timetabled departure.

[somebody]

Such a plan has a chance of being adopted.

But the other plans involving wrong road running IMO have bucklys chance.  I think it's a shame.

[Fares_Fair]

Hello Arnz,

Today, I have written to Kevin at QR with your 2 solutions to the overcrowding on our 5:22pm service.
I said that they came from a "Rail Back on Track member (not me)" unquote.
Thank you for them, Sincerely appreciated. 

I have asked for their consideration to resolve this issue.

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[ozbob]

Report from on board the 5.22pm Nambour service, around 650 pax, plenty of standing room lead and trailing cars, passengers clustering around centre carriages.

[ozbob]

Twitter

QueenslandRail

The 5:22pm service from Central to Nambour has a reduced load tonight - but we continue to listen to feedback about all services.
2 minutes ago

[BrizCommuter]

Twitter

QueenslandRail

The 5:22pm service from Central to Nambour has a reduced load tonight - but we continue to listen to feedback about all services.
2 minutes ago

Does the Bruce Highway have an increased loading?

[Arnz]

Twitter

QueenslandRail

The 5:22pm service from Central to Nambour has a reduced load tonight - but we continue to listen to feedback about all services.
2 minutes ago

Does the Bruce Highway have an increased loading?

Speaking to another mate (living at Beerwah) who used to catch this service (but now catches the 4:34pm run), he knows a few people (from Caboolture) that went back to driving their cars down the Bruce this week.  Some are carpooling to save money for that matter!

May be more expensive to park the car in the City, but for them it's a lot more convenient.

[Jonno]

Twitter

QueenslandRail

The 5:22pm service from Central to Nambour has a reduced load tonight - but we continue to listen to feedback about all services.
2 minutes ago

Does the Bruce Highway have an increased loading?

This would be a sad outcome indeed

[Stillwater]

Bruce Highway does indeed have an increased loading, on average - about 4 per cent a year.  Traffic counts are not done on a day to day basis, so there is no way of saying with certainty that a train breakdown, for example, resulted in an extra so many cars on the highway on any one day.  However, Main Roads has noted additional traffic congestion in recent months and that has been attributed to lots of tradies from the SC (where there is subdued building activity) heading to Brisbane for flood recovery work.

The Queensland Government proposes a new city of 50,000 at Caloundra South, so that will add to highway congestion over time.  The SC tourism industry says the long queues of traffic at holiday times are acting as a disincentive to holiday makers coming to the Sunshine Coast and making the Gold Coast more attractive for holidays.  There are calls for extra lanes on the Bruce Highway (from 2 to 3 in each direction, and for 3 lanes especially between the Caloundra and Maroochydore/Nambour turnoff).

Meanwhile the government has postponed duplication to Nambour until after 2031, halted CAMCOS also, in repudiation of earlier promises by Paul Lucas, and has few operational responses to peak sardine-like travelling conditions on the Sunshine Coast Line.  It is the 'perfect storm' for transport chaos.

[Stillwater]

It is also a chaos that suits the state government, as it can wave the finger at the federal government and say 'what are YOU going to do about this'?  Traditionally, the federal government picks up the bulk of the tab for any Bruce Highway upgrade.  By contrast, the state government is the level of government that, traditionally, has funded the Sunshine Coast railway line upgrade.

[Fares_Fair]

Report from on board the 5.22pm Nambour service, around 650 pax, plenty of standing room lead and trailing cars, passengers clustering around centre carriages.

That's certainly a lot better than the 880 on Monday and the approx. 790 on Tuesday.
At Central, I received a report of 65 standing in carriage 3, 72 seated, tonight. That seems to confirm Bob's reports of clustering.
This reduced to 27 standing by Northgate.

I was on the 4:00pm service home tonight, with approx. 40 pax standing in the 3rd carriage.

I received a report on equalisation of the 5:22pm train which occurred at Burpengary station tonight (carriage 3).

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Fares_Fair]

1.  I believe that you will find the reductions are mostly from pax moving to a 1 train later or 1 train earlier service.
2.  I personally know of people (women) who have now taken to the road to avoid the embarrassment of the impersonal crush.
3.  The load is merely increasing the standees on these other services.
4.  No room is allowed for the growth in public transport, or to return to the Sunshine Coast from Brisbane. (this appears to be actively discouraged).
5.  It was reported that one of the consolations of the new timetable was that everyone would get a seat. We just didn't realise that it came with someone already on it.  

The solution is to put in the new Sunshine Coast service at 5:11 from Roma Street, and actually encourage the use of public transport.

I stand all the time and am quite used to it. Many aren't and on the Sunshine Coast line we are standing for far longer than the 20 min. recommended mark. It's 3/4 - ~1 hour now.

Further the media cannot get an answer from TRANSLink or QR on safe maximum loadings for passenger services.

EDIT : This answer and link kindly provided from ozbob  : The limits are documented here  for all rolling stock eg. EMUs  --> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Fleet/Pages/emu.aspx



Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[#Metro]

Maybe you can crush commuters into some kind of infinite density singularity...

You know, they SHOULD know what the safe density is. Its probably around 4-5 passengers m2 or something like that.
Zero harm anyone? (Zero oxygen!)

[ozbob]

Further the media cannot get an answer from TRANSLink or QR on safe maximum loadings for passenger services.

This was the 'official response' in the halcyon days of 2006/2007 as well.  They will not fess up to overloading per se.  Goodness though, not hard to find.

The limits are documented here  for all rolling stock eg. EMUs  --> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Fleet/Pages/emu.aspx

Seating Capacity (3-car set)    248
Service Standing Capacity (3-car set)    252
Total Service Capacity (3-car set)    500

So a six car EMU has a design limit of 1000 pax.  In actuality they aim for a max pax of around 750 as this is comfortable, up 1000 for short duration.

[BrizCommuter]

Further the media cannot get an answer from TRANSLink or QR on safe maximum loadings for passenger services.

Passengers tend to refuse to board a train before it is "dangerously" packed. A full train in Brisbane typically has less than 2.5 pax per sq m. A typical full metro train in many cities will have around 4-5 pax per sq m. BrizCommuter has personally experienced 9 passengers per sq m in Shanghai - that was an experience!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Anyone remember the old QANTAS ad where they had the rugby team pack a scrum at the train door

[O_128]

ahhh dwell time

[BrizCommuter]

Not Shinjuku. Hibarigaoka on the Seibu Ikebukuro Line.
This is the full video

[Fares_Fair]

Yes, the above is well known BrizCommuter.

But they also have very high-speed, incredibly reliable timings (within seconds, QR uses 4min 59 sec) and probably a much greater comparative frequency than we do.
I confess I don't know about their costs, or cost of living comparisons etc.

Simply put, there's no comparison.  

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

It's interesting that they wouldn't just add extra trains, and lines if needed.  I generally think that railways are expensive so the utilisation should be high, but Japan is ridiculous.

[colinw]

What I find interesting in that video is just how narrow the platform is.

[BrizCommuter]

It's interesting that they wouldn't just add extra trains, and lines if needed.  I generally think that railways are expensive so the utilisation should be high, but Japan is ridiculous.

They do add extra tracks, lines, trains, doors, signals, grade separation, etc, etc. However, they also maximise use of available infrastructure. This is the same location in 2008.

Since this video, services from this station also serve a new metro line.

[Fares_Fair]

5:20 Crusher hits the Rails ... week 2 with no signs of improvement.
144 today in carriage 3.
 
5:22pm ex-Central station train packed like sardines again - I counted 60 standing. 84 seated on the new series IMU.
Equalisation did not occur until Burpengary (i.e. spare seats to accommodate those who are standing).
Arrived at Burpengary at 6:14pm - that's 52 minutes standing.

The customer charter is a joke if this is allowable.
QR MUST act to redress this situation. NOW.

Did not the Minister say that everyone would get a seat ? !!
Pax have taken to the road, someone check the Bruce Highway as it must be carrying more vehicles post June 6.
Pax have also taken to services each side of the 5:20 crusher train to the coast.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

Action time: SEQ: Major timetable changes phase one, a new beginning

15th June 2011

Greetings,

The new timetables are working reasonably well from our observations with a major exception.  As we identified early last week the services on the northern line between 5pm and 5.30pm need tweaking.  Specifically the 5:19pm to Petrie, and the 5:22pm to Nambour are both significantly overcrowded.  There needs to be some resolution to this.  A number of constructive suggestions have been made by our members and others to resolve this issue (see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6146.msg59037#msg59037 ).

We believe it is now time to act  and put on an additional service.  The rail corridor north of Brisbane is heavily utilised, the road system is a nightmare so it is essential that we optimise our rail services.

Best wishes
Robert

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

Media release 7 June 2011

SEQ: Major timetable changes phase one, a new beginning

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has congratulated TransLink and Queensland Rail on day one of the new timetable.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The first major structural change in the rail timetables in south-east Queensland was implemented yesterday, 6th the June. Overall feedback and direct observations suggests that the generally the changes went well. On time running for the first day was 92.6%, and excellent result for such a major change (1)."

"There were some minor issues however, for example the 5.20pm service from Central for Nambour was heavily congested.  One of the deficiencies on our rail network at peak is poor counter-peak frequency (2).  This impacted on this particular service however we are aware that Queensland Rail is working to resolve this situation."

"A particular highlight of the new timetable is the new day return rail service to Gympie North (3). RAIL Back On Track members travelled on the first service yesterday, which was widely welcomed by the communities in the Sunshine Coast hinterland."

"Communication of changes, particularly for some of the bus alterations has been late.  We note the the many TransLink and Queensland Rail staff out informing commuters of the rail changes, but improved communication for bus changes needs attention."

"We look forward to the next phase of consultation for the remaining lines!"

References:

1. http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Pages/PeakOn-TimeResults.aspx

2. 31 May 2011: SEQ: Counter peak services - the weak link http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6086.0

3. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5795.msg58963#msg58963

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[Fares_Fair]

Thank you ozbob.


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Fares_Fair]

5:20 Crusher hits the Rails ... week 2 with no signs of improvement.
149 today in carriage 3.
Extrapolated out for 6 cars (as I cannot see the rear 3 carriages) it could equal up to 890 pax.

Today I have written to QR seeking advice as to when/or if they will act on the overcrowding situation.
I have also asked if the 2 solutions proposed by a RBoT member (and with the greatest respect, Arnz) here are workable and realistic, so that I am not promoting something that is not achievable.
I have already submitted them last week to TRANSLink and Queensland Rail.

IMHO, the train home tonight was a sardine can once more, there were 65 standing, 84 sitting, on a new series IMU.
That is 149 pax. in carriage 3 of the 5:22pm train home tonight.
Other front 2 carriages looked just as busy.

IMHO, the 5:19pm Petrie train was also a sardine can.

I understand from ozbob, that there have been reports of worse on the Ipswich line in times past.
That does not make this situation under a new timetable correct.

Maybe this peak hour crush cannot be fixed, if so we should be told so that pax can make other arrangements and not wait for weeks of 'monitoring' with no suggestions in sight.
Perhaps there is no room for growth on the network at peak times, maybe this is our variant of peak (hour) oil ?
The problem dissipated after Burpengary station where 'Equalisation' again occurred tonight.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th June 2011

Re Action time: SEQ: Major timetable changes phase one, a new beginning

Greetings,

Time something was done.

Yesterdays observations -->  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6146.msg60204#msg60204

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

Greetings,

The new timetables are working reasonably well from our observations with a major exception.  As we identified early last week the services on the northern line between 5pm and 5.30pm need tweaking.  Specifically The 5:19pm to Petrie, and the 5:22pm to Nambour are both significantly overcrowded.  There needs to be some resolution to this.  A number of constructive suggestions have been made by our members and others to resolve this issue (see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6146.msg59037#msg59037 ).

We believe it is now time to act  and put on an additional service.  The rail corridor north of Brisbane is heavily utilised, the road system is a nightmare so it is essential that we optimise our rail services.

Best wishes
Robert

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[somebody]

Here's a proposal which QR wouldn't like.  Have the 17:18 (ex-Roma St) Nambour train non stop Dakabin and Narangba.  Also extend the 17:15 Petrie train to Narangba.  Enterprising pax could interchange at Petrie, but that is only useful if they arrive at the platform in the 3 minutes after the 17:15 train has left.  You could do similar with the 16:30 Nambour train.

It would reduce loadings on the 17:18 train slightly and also (just as importantly) make it faster.

[Fares_Fair]

Hello Queensland Rail,

I have some questions.

1.
How long before the sporadic? (your term) spikes are expected to balance out ?
i.e. how long until QR will act if this overcrowding does not improve ?
The announcements made of the other services are not working.

2.
Will QR consider the proposal of the new service that a member of RBoT has provided, and if not, why not ?
My first-hand experience and counting has shown that the numbers are not reducing for this service, last night June 15, e.g. was as crowded as the June 6 debut, i.e. 65 standing + 84 seated = 149 in carriage 3.

Further, it is fairly consistent for passengers to be standing for almost an hour every day, usually until Burpengary station, where the standees equal the number of spare seats.
Under the customer charter, this is no comfort.

3.
What are the recommended standing limits for QR services and does this 5:20pm service comply ?
I also have reports of extra standees on the 4:00pm, 4:30pm and 5:45pm trains to the Sunshine Coast when our service numbers have slightly reduced (and reduced by no more than 20 persons).

4.
We were better off under the old timetable in regards to passenger loads, can you explain why that is ?
To be honest it sounds like QR are not wanting to face the reality of the new timetable.


Thank you.

Regards,
Fares_Fair

EDIT: Burpengary typo corrected.

[somebody]

The Sunshine Coast line has been royally screwed by the latest timetable, no doubt.

The previous timetable had PM O/B services at 12:41, 3:58, 4:30, 5:10, 5:39, 6:02, 7:22, 9:23 (ex-Roma St).
AM I/B 6:23, 7:13, 7:46, 8:20, 8:52, 11:53 (Roma St arrivals)

So while there are more services in the new timetable, these are pretty much all off peak.  The peak service is not only less frequent, but also slower.  Previously the peak service was basically half hourly.

[Zoiks]

The aim is to not have anyone standing more then 20 minutes. Simply stating that such and such a train was crowded at central means nothing. Your statement that people are still having to stand an hour out however does mean something.

The best thing is that QR obviously is aware of it. Its not like they have turned a blind eye to it. Maybe direct your question to Translink. I guess they will be cranky if they have to print a whole heap of new timetables