Legacy way a legacy around the necks of ratepayers?

[ozbob]

Legacy way construction has started.  

http://www.northernlinkeis.com.au/index.html

Last year the former Lord Mayor of Brisbane send around a letter which said among other things that 'up to 2000 express buses will be using the tunnel daily'.

There is a problem with that, at best it is a misrepresentation because bus portals are not part of the plan for Legacy Way.

Has anyone still got a copy of that letter?  I seem to have misplaced mine with the move to Goodna.

The fact that the Government did not challenge that assertion is concerning as well.

Legacy all right.  And as a returned serviceman I personally object to the name Legacy way.  A cheap con trick IMHO.

[ozbob]

Found it ... fortunately I posted a copy here ...

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4459.msg35456#msg35456

====================

Late last week received this letter, twice.  It was addressed to the registered electors at our residence.

It was on official Lord Mayor letterhead and signed by the Lord Mayor dated 23 Sep 2010.  I assume all Brisbane voters received this letter.

It mentions up to 2000 express buses daily will benefit ... not sure how this will happen yet?  Does anyone?

[Golliwog]

The devil is in the wording. 0 is within the range of "up to 2000". I do expect some buses to use it, and at least 1 route similar to 77, but without the link into the busway the best we could hope for would be down Hale St and then left onto Caxton St to follow the 385 route. Though IIRC the exit from the tunnel onto the ICB will direct you to head towards the RBWH only.

[O_128]

Why the busway ramps weren't a condition in the tender ceases to amaze me

[Jonno]

Why the busway ramps weren't a condition in the tender ceases to amaze me

Because Campbell Newman does not give a flying wazoo about PT!!

[ozbob]

Up to 2000 express buses per day is clearly a ruse to sell the project.  There is a cost estimated to be around $55 million to properly connect to the INB, this has been confirmed by sources.  Mr Newman, LNP Candidate for Ashgrove, wanted the state government to fork that out. The state government hasn't funded it and probably won't because of the petty polyticks, so the whole project is fast shaping up as another Clem7.

[SteelPan]

TransApex and public transit are two completely DIFFERENT universes.
TransApex's primary markets are commercial/trade vehicles, heavy transports and genuine "cross town" traffic, which, even with a turbo-charged tripling of PT investment, will still be, by far, better suited to private vehicle transport.

I'm all for seriously advancing the cause of PT - but attacking the very necessary TransApex program has never been the way and has not slowed the program one bit - born under the ALP, delivered under the LNP, clearly both sides of politics saw the obvious - a growing Brisbane does have some underlying transit issues and some of the biggest ones relate to traffic volume and its management and getting it OFF over crowded streets which were never built to handle such traffic levels - M5 is the next big one to address with the "inner western orbital".

The market PT does and could further appeal to, is a very different market!

[Gazza]

I'll scan in the letter when I get home, but I got a letter yesterday from the Lord Mayor (I did a submission via the website, aparently there were problems and a whole bunch of emails didn't get a response for months)

Anyway, Council has aparently done a concept design for ramps that supposedly could be done as a separate project and with minimal distruption and additional cost. Of course, I'd like to see the designs for myself, but if he's being honest its nice to know it's something which can be done in the future.


The letter did have a bit of a spiel about "Council isnt in a position to fund the ramps due to flood recovery" and "it is important to note that expansion of the busway network is a state government responsibility" which made me  a bit.

SteelPan...Re Transapex, then why are other cities able to get by without cross city tunnels etc...Im thinking of places like London and Paris, where the freeways end miles from the cental core.

[ozbob]

Thanks for the update. The ramps are contingent on the State coming up with around $55 million as I understand it Gazza ...  will be interesting should the LNP win the next election won't it?

Steelpan, the issue for me is the 'up to 2000 express buses per day'  line ... never will happen with or without ramps ...  I also have some reservations as a rate payer in BCC as well.

[#Metro]

The letter did have a bit of a spiel about "Council isnt in a position to fund the ramps due to flood recovery" and "it is important to note that expansion of the busway network is a state government responsibility" which made me   a bit.

I love the buck passing! Is the state government responsibility to fund Kingsford Smith Drive road in the river?
Which transport operator will benefit from the changes- oh that's right, none other than... Brisbane Transport!
Councils OWN buses- also bought and run on state government cash.

[Gazza]

^Seems a bit selective eh....
You know,  its normally a state government responsibility to run PT, and build freeways, but BCC has dabbled in, and put money towards these two things.
When will pollies realise that we don't care wether its local, state or the feds that fund something, we just want the infrastructure we need.

[Jonno]

Steelpan, no road expansion has every delivered the free flowing freight and light vehicle dream/utopia they use to justify the road.  They only deliver more passenger vehicles stuck in worse traffic congestion.  TransApex will improve nothing but WILL send Council broke, destroy inner city Brisbane and leave us with a massive transport mess still to clean up!!!!

[SteelPan]

Steelpan, no road expansion has every delivered the free flowing freight and light vehicle dream/utopia they use to justify the road.  They only deliver more passenger vehicles stuck in worse traffic congestion.  TransApex will improve nothing but WILL send Council broke, destroy inner city Brisbane and leave us with a massive transport mess still to clean up!!!!

With all due respect, I believe that to be untrue.  Look at the TWO Gateway Bridge projects in this part of the world alone - those bridges are crucial to flow of commercial traffic across Brisbane - where would it go without them???

[SteelPan]

I'll scan in the letter when I get home, but I got a letter yesterday from the Lord Mayor (I did a submission via the website, aparently there were problems and a whole bunch of emails didn't get a response for months)

Anyway, Council has aparently done a concept design for ramps that supposedly could be done as a separate project and with minimal distruption and additional cost. Of course, I'd like to see the designs for myself, but if he's being honest its nice to know it's something which can be done in the future.


The letter did have a bit of a spiel about "Council isnt in a position to fund the ramps due to flood recovery" and "it is important to note that expansion of the busway network is a state government responsibility" which made me  a bit.

SteelPan...Re Transapex, then why are other cities able to get by without cross city tunnels etc...Im thinking of places like London and Paris, where the freeways end miles from the cental core.

Well, if BOTH previous State Govts and BCC (particularly State Govts) had got on with a proper Western Orbital Road for Brisbane lots of things may now be different!  They did not, so now Brisbane, under both Soorley and Newman, have embraced programs to ensure the city does not grind to a halt.

As I said, you could triple and triple again the PT spend on SE Qld and TransApex would still be a must have!  Our children and their children will use it and not give a thought to it - like they do in countless other cities worldwide!

Research as just one example, the New Jersey Turnpike!

I am all for significantly expanding the RAIL presence in Brisbane/SE Qld - I rightly cop regularly, good natured flake for it, ie, Inner Western Orbital Tunnel WITH Rail, Stage 3 of Proposed Underground (why stop at only 2 stages?), "PATH" Train etc - Brisbane needs them all in my opinion - but, I've never seen TransApex as even on the same planet, indeed the structure of TransApex means more state funded rail can be done AND the city also gets better cross city road transport.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

[Jonno]

Steelpan, no road expansion has every delivered the free flowing freight and light vehicle dream/utopia they use to justify the road.  They only deliver more passenger vehicles stuck in worse traffic congestion.  TransApex will improve nothing but WILL send Council broke, destroy inner city Brisbane and leave us with a massive transport mess still to clean up!!!!

With all due respect, I believe that to be untrue.  Look at the TWO Gateway Bridge projects in this part of the world alone - those bridges are crucial to flow of commercial traffic across Brisbane - where would it go without them???

That would be the Gateway Bridge that has costed/costs several billion and carrys about 10-15% commercial traffic? The freight could do easily be on rail. If we did have a comprehensive PT system then a significantly amount of trips would come off our roads leaving space for commercial traffic on existing roads.

Anyway the research shows the futility of road building so I will let it speak for me.

[#Metro]

I will agree and disagree with both of you.

Well, if BOTH previous State Govts and BCC (particularly State Govts) had got on with a proper Western Orbital Road for Brisbane lots of things may now be different!  They did not, so now Brisbane, under both Soorley and Newman, have embraced programs to ensure the city does not grind to a halt.

We do have metroad 5; I am interested in road projects that allow buses to flow in fast, straight lines. One example of poor road layout is in the Tradecoast precinct.

I am all for significantly expanding the RAIL presence in Brisbane/SE Qld - I rightly cop regularly, good natured flake for it, ie, Inner Western Orbital Tunnel WITH Rail, Stage 3 of Proposed Underground (why stop at only 2 stages?), "PATH" Train etc - Brisbane needs them all in my opinion - but, I've never seen TransApex as even on the same planet, indeed the structure of TransApex means more state funded rail can be done AND the city also gets better cross city road transport.

This sounds like a fiesta of concrete. The demand for orbital services is well within range of bus- I would NOT be building orbital heavy rail. You are focusing on coverage with new infrastructure, I am focusing on service intensity on existing infrastructure. If you spend money on one, you are going to have less money on the other. This PATH train and orbital rail (unless it were a freight bypass, which I am all for) would probably start with frequencies of world's worst 30 minutes. Now I don't think train services become really useful until they hit a service every 10 minutes all day, because the waiting time is simply so huge that you'd be in your car and home again by the time the train turned up.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

I agree. It is so congested you can walk faster. But I would say add dedicated bus lanes...

[#Metro]

Costly and expensive unwarranted fiestas of concrete DESTROY public transport, not make it better! You lock up all those funds @ $100 million per kilometre when it could be spent on frequency!

[#Metro]

That would be the Gateway Bridge that has costed/costs several billion and carrys about 10-15% commercial traffic? The freight could do easily be on rail. If we did have a comprehensive PT system then a significantly amount of trips would come off our roads leaving space for commercial traffic on existing roads.

Anti-roads is NOT a sound basis to put PT on. Fixed rail can only take freight up and down a guideway and to destinations close to it. So rail might be fine for sending something interstate or bulk coal to port, but you need that local distribution function that say gets stuff from say, Rocklea markets to everywhere. So you get exactly the same issue here you get with radial single-point to everywhere networks- you need interchange with another mode to overcome the "front door" problem (how many businesses are set up on a rail line? A small fraction).

So somewhere in the process, you have to pull the goods off rail and put them on road to get them to their ultimate destination.

Secondly, more freight on a "everything on the same tracks" network like Brisbane is going to interfere with passenger services.

[Jonno]

It is a matter of scale not if/or!  Well designed freight networks use rail for all but the the last mile and that is not Rocklea to the whole of SEQ.  Of course the network needs to be there for both passenger and freight but that is what I am arguing for not accepting it as a limitation.  We build these massive inefficient and unsafe roads to only encourage more driving. Not efficient use of a our taxes.  Yes we should be limiting the roads space and providing alternatives for passenger and freight.  If you think we can afford both that is never going to happen.  We need to reduce our road space not just develop PTnin parallel.

[#Metro]

There is a idea I had...

If a busway is for buses

then a freightway is just for freight...

[Gazza]

^Here's how it should be done:

http://www.dublinporttunnel.ie/tolls_and_permitted_vehicles/

0 EUR toll for Trucks, Buses.

10 EUR ($13) toll for Cars and light vehicles in the peak direction, 3 EUR off peak.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

So? It's all residential through there. Where are the trucks etc that justify a tunnel?

[somebody]

Indeed.  Probably an equivalent road to the Gateway motorway.

[Golliwog]

So? It's all residential through there. Where are the trucks etc that justify a tunnel?

Theres actually a decent number of trucks that travel through there. IIRC trucks are the reason that heading up the hills to Bardon they added the second lane so they could try and keep moving as much as possible in traffic seeing as a hill start in a truck is a slow thing to do. I don't really know if theres enough trucks to justify a tunnel but I'm sure TMR probably has a vehicle count and breakdown.

[SteelPan]

^Here's how it should be done:

http://www.dublinporttunnel.ie/tolls_and_permitted_vehicles/

0 EUR toll for Trucks, Buses.

10 EUR ($13) toll for Cars and light vehicles in the peak direction, 3 EUR off peak.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

So? It's all residential through there. Where are the trucks etc that justify a tunnel?

For the recrod, M5 is a HIGHLY commercial corridor for traffic - truck/cross city traffic usage is VERY HIGH - likewise with the Gateway Bridge corridors.

TRANSAPEX is crucial for the better flowing of NO PUBLIC TRANSIT orientated road transport in Brisbane.  Buses/Citytrain have nothing to do with anything regards this issue.

You'd be the ONLY people in Brisbane to question the need for urgent action regards Toowong to Everton Park - the WORST CITY ROAD CORRIDOR IN AUSTRALIA!  Tell you what, plant yaself anywhere in the M5 Toowong/Everton Park traffic tomorrow morning at say 7.30am and tell me what ya think!!!!   

[somebody]

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

If you want to see congestion, go to Sydney.

[O_128]

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

If you want to see congestion, go to Sydney.

I agree, no one can complain bout congestion until they have sat on military road in peak hour.

[petey3801]

Noone can complain about congestion until they have come to a grinding halt on a German Autobahn (from about 150km/h) due to a 10km traffic jam (took over 2 hours to pass through it) due to 2 of the 3 lanes being closed for roadworks on a SUNDAY! 

[Jonno]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6115.0 or http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/05/31/study-building-roads-to-cure-congestion-is-an-exercise-in-futility/ says it all jump and down all you like about TransApex but it cannot solve the traffic problems you are so passionate about.

[BrizCommuter]

^Here's how it should be done:

http://www.dublinporttunnel.ie/tolls_and_permitted_vehicles/

0 EUR toll for Trucks, Buses.

10 EUR ($13) toll for Cars and light vehicles in the peak direction, 3 EUR off peak.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

So? It's all residential through there. Where are the trucks etc that justify a tunnel?

For the recrod, M5 is a HIGHLY commercial corridor for traffic - truck/cross city traffic usage is VERY HIGH - likewise with the Gateway Bridge corridors.

TRANSAPEX is crucial for the better flowing of NO PUBLIC TRANSIT orientated road transport in Brisbane.  Buses/Citytrain have nothing to do with anything regards this issue.

You'd be the ONLY people in Brisbane to question the need for urgent action regards Toowong to Everton Park - the WORST CITY ROAD CORRIDOR IN AUSTRALIA!  Tell you what, plant yaself anywhere in the M5 Toowong/Everton Park traffic tomorrow morning at say 7.30am and tell me what ya think!!!!   

MrsCommuter drives along that road daily, and it's not too bad. 35min road journey from Alderley/Enoggera to Forest Lake. Would take at least x3 by public transport.

[Gazza]

^Here's how it should be done:

http://www.dublinporttunnel.ie/tolls_and_permitted_vehicles/

0 EUR toll for Trucks, Buses.

10 EUR ($13) toll for Cars and light vehicles in the peak direction, 3 EUR off peak.

Try driving at peak and often off peak the M5 between Toowong and Everton Park - perhaps the worst road in Australia!

So? It's all residential through there. Where are the trucks etc that justify a tunnel?

For the recrod, M5 is a HIGHLY commercial corridor for traffic - truck/cross city traffic usage is VERY HIGH - likewise with the Gateway Bridge corridors.

TRANSAPEX is crucial for the better flowing of NO PUBLIC TRANSIT orientated road transport in Brisbane.  Buses/Citytrain have nothing to do with anything regards this issue.

You'd be the ONLY people in Brisbane to question the need for urgent action regards Toowong to Everton Park - the WORST CITY ROAD CORRIDOR IN AUSTRALIA!  Tell you what, plant yaself anywhere in the M5 Toowong/Everton Park traffic tomorrow morning at say 7.30am and tell me what ya think!!!!   

So at 7:30am on a weekday, what percentage of the vehicles are commercial, if you had to guess?

[Jonno]

If you go by the National Freight Strategy it is only 10-15%.

[Gazza]

Futhermore, the fact that you are highlighting a weekday morning to me suggests that it is indeed just mere peakiness on the road network caused by people driving to work.

If it was the middle of the day, and it was clogged up 90% by trucks, commerical vehicles etc, then that'd be a problem and you might then consider the tunnel.

But if the problem is mainly occurring in peaks, then you can fix that by getting the private motorists 'out of the way' by first providing better PT. Then commercial vehicles get a clean run.

Freight/Commercial vehicles techincally shouldn't really be 'peaky'. A tradie is gonna move job to job all day long, and isn't necessarily going to the CBD. Same can be said for delivery drivers etc.
I have indeed driven along the road in question in the afternoon peak, and yep, it is pretty much all private vehicles going home.

To bypass all this, you'd need to build an 8km tunnel. It'd be much cheaper to just tunnel under Stafford Rd from Aiport Link, and hook into the Trouts Rd corridor (Just on that, its definitley wide enough to fit road and rail, Perth style) , since that's an easy 3.5km of tunnel.

[SteelPan]

On the M5 of a morning, around 50% commercial (trade and industry) and 50% cross city.  PT options would mean ZERO to the folks caught in this traffic.

Have sat in Sidnee traffic, sat in LA freeway traffic too, M5 a shocker by any standards! People are literally driving on suburban roads, doubling as major motorways!

[SurfRail]

The M5 is part of an outer orbital motorway designed to carry interstate freight.  This one isn't.

We do have one of those - it's called the Gateway. 

I continue to maintain that you could massively reduce heavy vehicle traffic on local, sub-arterial and main roads by removing tolls from commercial vehicles on the Logan and Gateway Motorways.

[somebody]

I continue to maintain that you could massively reduce heavy vehicle traffic on local, sub-arterial and main roads by removing tolls from commercial vehicles on the Logan and Gateway Motorways.

You could probably achieve nearly the same effect by making commercial vehicles the same price as cars.

[Gazza]

and 50% cross city.

Orbital smart bus 

[Jonno]

On the M5 of a morning, around 50% commercial (trade and industry) and 50% cross city.  PT options would mean ZERO to the folks caught in this traffic.

Have sat in Sidnee traffic, sat in LA freeway traffic too, M5 a shocker by any standards! People are literally driving on suburban roads, doubling as major motorways!

Never argued that the road is not congested nor a nightmare but as study after study has shown the answer is not to build more roads.  That you just have to accept it...or just keep throwing good money after bad till the country is bankrupt.

[Jonno]

On the M5 of a morning, around 50% commercial (trade and industry) and 50% cross city.  PT options would mean ZERO to the folks caught in this traffic.

Have sat in Sidnee traffic, sat in LA freeway traffic too, M5 a shocker by any standards! People are literally driving on suburban roads, doubling as major motorways!

Never argued that the road is not congested nor a nightmare but as study after study has shown the answer is not to build more roads.  That you just have to accept it...or just keep throwing good money after bad till the country is bankrupt.

[SteelPan]

Never argued that the road is not congested nor a nightmare but as study after study has shown the answer is not to build more roads.  That you just have to accept it...or just keep throwing good money after bad till the country is bankrupt.

Firstly, No, I don't have to accept that building more roads is not the solution to some road based transit issues. 

The M5 between Toowong and Everton Park, is made up of largely suburban streets, forced to take on the role of major cross city corridor.  It's dangerous, inefficient, ineffective and costing the city hundreds of millions dollars every year in lost productivity.

The ONLY practical answer to this particular issue IS the construction of a dedicated road corridor, ie, the the proposed inner western orbital tunnel concept.

[Jonno]

Ok so let me get this straight.

Despite:

• endless studies showing road expansion does not fix congestion
• the financial return on freeway construction is negative and increases the requirement for future spending as well
• 40 billion spent a year on road trauma
• in over 40 years of road building we are still trying to fix our traffic problems
• all but 1 toll tunnel has gone bankrupt and taken a number of super funds with them
• Governments cannot afford to build 'un-tolled road'
• oil prices are heading up fast
• cities around the world are pulling down freeways replacing them with 'at grade' roads
• the indirect benefits of transit and freight rail are easily 4 to 5 times the direct costs

the only practical solution is a freeway?  No other solution exists? I find that hard to believe.