QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO) - How to DOO it?

[Derwan]

My understanding is that QR is keen for DOO but successive governments have not been willing to even look at the idea.

As mufreight mentioned, raised platforms are a requirement before it can happen.  Unfortunately the minimalist approach of government isn't forward-thinking enough to realise that by spending the money in the upgrades, they can save money later.

Are all of the Gold Coast stations high platforms?  What about Beenleigh, Loganlea and Altandi?  If so, perhaps the Gold Coast Line could be the first to go DOO once the BaT Tunnel opens?

[ozbob]

Low level stations can have designated loading points constructed (raised sections).  Driver assistance works in Melbourne as well when needed.

[SurfRail]

Are all of the Gold Coast stations high platforms?  What about Beenleigh, Loganlea and Altandi?  If so, perhaps the Gold Coast Line could be the first to go DOO once the BaT Tunnel opens?

Beenleigh isn't but it is of course possible that the station will be upgraded between now and when the new tunnel opens.  They want at least one additional platform, and it is going to be a challenge to put that in where the station currently sits (although moving it further south where there is a nice straight will create issues for access to the yard).

Loganlea is quite straight and easy to fix - and overdue for a decent upgrade anyway.

Altandi 1 and 2 are already fine, just that Altandi 3 (which was not in regular use until the current timetable) was resurfaced but left at the same height and still partially on a curve.  Could probably be raised without much effort (or by sinking the track bed and adjusting the platform lip a bit).

South of Beenleigh the platforms are all the right height, although there is a little bit of concave or convex curvature at all stations except Varsity Lakes (none of which I believe actually obstructs line of sight down the full length of a train on either platform at the affected stations).

[Derwan]

South of Beenleigh the platforms are all the right height, although there is a little bit of concave or convex curvature at all stations except Varsity Lakes (none of which I believe actually obstructs line of sight down the full length of a train on either platform at the affected stations).

I think the main issue is platform height.  We don't want the driver having to go through the process of securing the cab every time they need to assist someone in a wheelchair.  (Petey described the process a while ago.  I forget the details but it was pretty involved.)  Line-of-sight issues can be solved by cameras and screens.  Curved platforms might be an issue if the gap is too large.

[ozbob]

I know Queensland Rail has wanted to get rid of guards in the past, and at one point they very nearly did finalise something like that, although the Government of the day stepped in and stopped it from proceeding.

I think for most of the network it can be done quite safely, there will be some dodgy stations like Murrarie which is on a tight bend which honestly I think that station should be moved a little further west and the bend straightened out a bit, but that's another story.

Yes true as I understand it.  If they go to competitive tendering DOO is a certainty IMHO.

Curved stations are easily covered with multiple camera set ups as for Melbourne.

Mobility impaired access point will need to be sorted.  Some platforms eg. Goodna present problems for wheelchairs if boarding car one. Special procedures might have to implemented for these exceptions.

Melbourne boarding points are car one.  They always use 6 cars (occasionally 3 on Alamein only). 

[SurfRail]

^ Even if this didn't happen you still just run 3 car sets to the end of the platform and sign the platforms appropriately.

Alamein operates more frequently than the Ipswich line too!

[#Metro]

Just DOO it 

(we should get a rail track spoof of the nike tick for this)

[ozbob]

Just DOO it 

(we should get a rail track spoof of the nike tick for this)

[#Metro]

#DOOIt 

[ozbob]

A costing for moving to DOO would be be part of the competitive tendering process I would expect. 

This would be funded separately to potential operator tenders.

[#Metro]

It seems that all capital cities with rail have ATP (Mel, Syd (rollout in progress), Adl and Per) except Brisbane.


http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/portals/0/annualreports/2013/network/metro/looking-ahead.asp

upgrading the current ATP (automatic train protection system) with new technology to provide for significantly reduced headways (i.e. schedule trains closer together to provide more services per hour) to increase system capacity

So it seems that ATP does allow capacity increase (more trains in peak?) and permit 'fat' to be reduced while reducing service supply costs significantly and vastly improving safety.

Other links
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2379.msg11542#msg11542
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6246.msg60925#msg60925

[#Metro]

Major capacity boost from running trains closer with ATP & ETCS

Once initial capital costs are spent, staged signalling upgrade will allow hugely more frequency (from DOO), greater safety and faster journey times (from closer trains).

The core section would probably have to be done first, and then perhaps Springfield/Ipswich lines. Although these also carry freight and it is not clear how that would work (would the freight trains need equipment too?)

[#Metro]

[Arnz]

It seems that all capital cities with rail have ATP (Mel, Syd (rollout in progress), Adl and Per) except Brisbane.

Brisbane does have 'limited' ATP.  The ICEs are fitted with them for the twice-daily Gympielander (part of the TransLink network).

Speaking of ATP, the project to retrofit the IMU100s with ATP really has stalled.  There was tender to fit those units out with ATP, then progress suddenly stalled after disagreements had risen up (outlined by Pete in a earlier thread IIRC).

[MichaelJ]

Sadly, I think the current role of Guard in QLD is on borrowed time. It's not a very active role when compared to that in NSW.

That said, I'm a firm believer that two people should remain on the train for safety reasons. It has been talked about previously, combining the role of Guard and Transit Officer and I think that's possible. What has been talked about in NSW is Train Operator, where both Train Crew are capable of being a Driver or Guard.

Essentially, it's not about getting making a role redundant (Driver or Guard), it's about utilising the roles more effectively.

I say making Driver or Guard redundant because there will still be a Guard of sorts monitoring the Driverless Trains on the NWRL in NSW.

[#Metro]

I'd like to see guards removed after steps are taken such as ATP etc.
Busway stations do not have guards, nor do trams.

Is the value a guard adds worth $80 000?
That's money I'd rather see spent on more train frequency, more buses and slowing fare rises.

Guards are not used in Perth, there city density trains and network is broadly comparable to that in Brisbane and I have not seen hard evidence to suggest the Perth network is more dangerous due to lack of guards.

[MichaelJ]

Won't happen in Sydney with the double deckers as there is already the same staff-passenger ratio as a DOO single deck.

[Stillwater]

Not $80,000, more like $140,000 by the time you take into account superannuation, accumulated sick and long-service leave, support services (such as HR).

[#Metro]

What's the rate of super? Is it 12%?

[SurfRail]

Won't happen in Sydney with the double deckers as there is already the same staff-passenger ratio as a DOO single deck.

Outside the NWRL anyway...

[Mozz]

Not $80,000, more like $140,000 by the time you take into account superannuation, accumulated sick and long-service leave, support services (such as HR).

In Qld Public Sector we generally use around 27% on top of base salary to cover super, leave, office space etc... which is $101,600 on an 80k salary.

[MichaelJ]

I'm well rested because even the Waratah aren't DOO compliant.

[ozbob]

Please keep this thread for DOO itself discussions, unemployment etc has been split

--> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10723.0   

[dancingmongoose]

TWO fully-loaded passenger trains came within metres of colliding when a train failed to stop at a red signal in Brisbane.
Another train was stopped at the Banoon station on the Beenleigh line.
A Queensland Rail spokeswoman said they were investigating the incident and had notified the Rail Safety Regulator.
"We have a strategy in place to reduce the number of signals passed at danger (SPAD) including new technology, engineering solutions and reducing the risk associated with human error," said the spokeswoman.
"Queensland Rail is looking at installing LED signals to improve visibility at identified locations, reducing distractions for train drivers and improved training, communications and warnings."
The number of trains running red signals increased last year to what was described as "alarming levels" by an internal safety memo.
The annual report by the Rail Safety Regulator also warned of an increase in "train crew error SPADs" to 97 from the previous four year average of 88.
"A signal passed at danger is an event which could, under specific circumstances lead to a collision between trains," the report said.
At the time Transport Minister Scott Emerson said he would be making rail operators aware of the need to focus their efforts on reducing SPADs.
Queensland Rail staff have blamed the increase on the pressure to improve on-time running of train services.

source: http://www.news.com.au/national/two-brisbane-citytrains-loaded-with-passengers-came-within-metres-of-colliding-when-train-failed-to-stop-at-red-signal/story-e6frfkp9-1226952853712

[BrizCommuter]

TWO fully-loaded passenger trains came within metres of colliding when a train failed to stop at a red signal in Brisbane.
Another train was stopped at the Banoon station on the Beenleigh line.
A Queensland Rail spokeswoman said they were investigating the incident and had notified the Rail Safety Regulator.
"We have a strategy in place to reduce the number of signals passed at danger (SPAD) including new technology, engineering solutions and reducing the risk associated with human error," said the spokeswoman.
"Queensland Rail is looking at installing LED signals to improve visibility at identified locations, reducing distractions for train drivers and improved training, communications and warnings."
The number of trains running red signals increased last year to what was described as "alarming levels" by an internal safety memo.
The annual report by the Rail Safety Regulator also warned of an increase in "train crew error SPADs" to 97 from the previous four year average of 88.
"A signal passed at danger is an event which could, under specific circumstances lead to a collision between trains," the report said.
At the time Transport Minister Scott Emerson said he would be making rail operators aware of the need to focus their efforts on reducing SPADs.
Queensland Rail staff have blamed the increase on the pressure to improve on-time running of train services.

source: http://www.news.com.au/national/two-brisbane-citytrains-loaded-with-passengers-came-within-metres-of-colliding-when-train-failed-to-stop-at-red-signal/story-e6frfkp9-1226952853712

QR needs ATP, not just LED signals. The lack of ATP is an accident waiting to happen!

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Two Brisbane Citytrains loaded with passengers came within metres of colliding when train failed to stop at red signal

=======================================

Media release 9th April 2013 re-released 16th November 2013 re-released 13th June 2014



SEQ: Suburban rail network needs Automatic Train Protection too!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the introduction of Automatic Train Protection (ATP) which incorporates improved signalling is well overdue on the suburban rail network in SEQ (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is a system that relays signal information, track speed information and other track information to trains, and can automatically slow or stop trains if they exceed the track speeds or approach signals at STOP at too high a speed. It will also stop trains that pass a signal at STOP unless a specific procedure is followed."

"There are concerns with rail safety generally and it is time that ATP was introduced on the suburban rail network."

ATP is needed because:

Safety - the current Automatic Warning System installed on Queensland Rail's suburban network will not prevent crashes or derailments caused by:

1) Excessive speed around corners or through switches.
2) Excessive speed through red signals compromising the safe stopping distance.
3) Excessive speed through yellow signals, again compromising the safe stopping distance.
4) Excessive speed on approach to dead end tracks, such as at termini.

ATP will prevent the majority of crashes caused by the above.

Capacity - ATP in conjunction with a high capacity signalling system such as European Railway Traffic Management System - ERTMS - level 2 allows for higher train frequencies and/or higher reliability.  This is important as we approach maximum capacity limits on the Merivale Bridge.

Cost savings - ERTMS level 2 has less track wayside equipment, reducing equipment maintenance costs.  Longer term significant cost savings.

Open market - as ERTMS is standards based, multiple manufacturers can bid for contracts. Multiple manufacturers can also be involved in a contract. Leads times may be faster, and approval processes may be simplified.

"It appears that moves to implement ATP have stalled (3).  We can really afford to wait any longer?"

References:

1. Automatic Train Protection (ATP) http://www.railsafe.org.au/section.jsp?id=8684

2. The European Railway Traffic Management System (ERTMS)  http://www.ertms.net/ertms/ertms-in-brief.aspx

3. Rail Safety Systems Assessment of the South East Queensland Rail Network http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/railsafety/rail%20safety%20systems%20assessment%20of%20seq%20rail%20network%20update%202.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

it should be noted driver only operation is in use with curved platforms, platform/door gaps, platform view obstructions, sun, rain, snow, and hail.

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html


Got a reference to back this up Brizcommuter? I should make a list of stations on the QR network with curved platforms in good time.

[aldonius]

Melbourne, I presume.

[Gazza]

And London.....mind the gap!

[Stillwater]

Interesting ....

Steve Bredhauer (remember him?) when he was Transport Minister: "Queensland Rail has put in place the most up-to-date rail safety systems both on train and in train control centres to make sure that driver-only operation can occur with safety."

http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s118343.htm

They were the days when Labor told us we had a 'world clarse' train system.

LNP Government would face similar treatment from unions on DOO.

[ozbob]

DOO was eventually commenced ..

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/safety-investigation-reports.aspx?mode=Rail&q=Signal%20MR5%20Passed%20at%20Danger,%20Freight%20Train%20Y245

1.8.3

" Driver-only operation on the QR network first started in 1989 between Brisbane
and Maryborough. Since then this mode of crewing has been extended across much
of the state. "

ATP north of Caboolture, west of Rosewood.

[ozbob]

QR Fact Sheet
RAIL SAFETY (PDF) c. 2009

> http://bit.ly/1BQvOKB

Interesting reading, but this:

Suburban passenger trains also travel with a guard who has access to the
train radio. If the driver fails to respond to a call to stop, the guard can set off an
emergency brake

[ozbob]

DOO on suburban network will never fly without ATP on the suburban network.

We can prattle on about ramps, platform heights, CCTV set ups and so forth.  Until the fundamental safety risk is addressed, two person crews are here to stay.

[#Metro]

LNP Government would face similar treatment from unions on DOO.

The rail network needs to expand so no job losses at all - just staged conversion, and there's a 5% pay rise attached to DOO as well due to increased productivity, written into the traincrew agreement.

[#Metro]

One would think the cost for NSW ATP would be higher than in Brisbane... note the rollout is partly because of the Waterfall accident - where there was a guard present in the back of the train. The train was going too fast around a curve - note our network is full of curves - and became incapacitated, train speed was too high, accident followed.

---
From a NSW Gov't Media Release

Tenders called for Stage one of Automatic Train Protection rollout
Updated Friday, 17 September, 2010

"Mr Robertson said stages two and three will include the installation of ATP equipment across the rest of the electrified network and onboard the Waratah and Millennium train fleets.

"Automatic Train Protection represents a leap forward in the safe running of the CityRail network, and in its final form will also help to deliver cost-savings, improved on-time running and increased capacity for more trains on the network," he said.

A successful trial of the European Train Control System (ETCS) Level 1 was conducted in 2007-08 following extensive investigation of the technologies available worldwide. Today's tender will also include a pilot installation of ETCS Level 2 to inform the continued implementation of ATP in the coming years.

Submissions for today's tender close 10 November 2010.

The ATP Program is part of the NSW Government's response to the Waterfall Inquiry.

[#Metro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_rail_accident


Does Sydney have train stops at signals? I can't remember since the last time I was there. Are physical train stops necessary for ATP or are systems that can stop the train without physical contact with a stop?

[#Metro]

Check out the ramp function. Could be used on QR trains? TTC custom solution...

[BrizCommuter]

Trainstops are only an intermittent form of ATP, and are not a serious option for new installations in the 21st century. There are no lack of accidents on metro systems with trainstops that would have been prevented by continuous ATP.

[HappyTrainGuy]

"Operating Cost per Passenger Trip Served" will go down with more passengers on board.

At the time, Perth trains were carrying just less than QR. Perth and QR are good comparators.

Perth has since overtaken QR because, well, its not Queensland!

Fact is, QR's production costs are extreme, even by international comparison. And it is by a huge margin.

Labour costs are perhaps the largest cost of operating a railway.

Its not simple, but that's not the point I was making.

These issues should be progressively sorted, and in addition the newer lines that have been built to DOO standard looked at for DOO.

Guards can be converted to drivers over time so that all can keep their job with QR.

CM has a good video of the press conference re: Kippa Ring and Staff shortages.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-rail-introduces-interim-timetable-while-it-tries-to-solve-staff-shortage-crisis/news-story/788b40295219cc6ea02d7c41891bdcd3

Have outside costs been factored into this such as maintenance?? Such as different trains all requiring different spare parts. Some of which are built in house because spares are hard to come by due to age of the rollingstock. As too passenger loadings? I have said for a very long time the Caboolture line outside of peak hour only warrants a 30 min service because of the lack of walk up patronage and the lack of feeder bus services. Basically the same as the 330/340 buz where they are empty Bracken Ridge-Chermside/Carseldine-Chermside.

[#Metro]

Have outside costs been factored into this such as maintenance?? Such as different trains all requiring different spare parts. Some of which are built in house because spares are hard to come by due to age of the rollingstock. As too passenger loadings? I have said for a very long time the Caboolture line outside of peak hour only warrants a 30 min service because of the lack of walk up patronage and the lack of feeder bus services. Basically the same as the 330/340 buz where they are empty Bracken Ridge-Chermside/Carseldine-Chermside.

Perth and Brisbane run the same models of trains.

If anything, it is the Brisbane patronage that should be higher as the rail line termini connect large regional cities such as Ipwich, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast etc.

Perth only has Fremantle and Mandurah.