QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO) - How to DOO it?

[verbatim9]

^^That would make sense to have the Gold Coast - Airport line as DOO. It could result in cost savings to keep Airport journey fares from increasing. Other money saved could go towards line improvements to decrease journey times on the line. It could also pay for the new station at DFO and having that station in the Translink fare grid. Gold coast stations getting upgraded now, will they be Doo compliant and ready to go?

If people along the line were made aware of cost saving and the potential of improved infrastructure and faster journey times as a result. It may achieve critical mass approval?

(I also advocate for this thread to be moved to the open forum).

[ozbob]

(I also advocate for this thread to be moved to the open forum).

^  errr it is ... 

[#Metro]

BrizCommuter in another thread mentioned Keolis running Southern Rail in the UK.

This does seem like a dispute and series of strikes to resist DOO introduction.

What was interesting though is that it prompted the rail safety regulation office to send inspectors to ride trains with the drivers and guards to investigate the safety claims further.

A Report is now available:

GTR – Southern Railways – Driver Only
Operation (DOO) – Report from the HM Chief
Inspector of Railways
5 January 2017

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/23671/gtr-southern-driver-only-operation-report-january-2017.pdf

18. ORR is satisfied that with suitable equipment, procedures and competent staff in place
the proposed form of train dispatch intended by GTR-Southern, meets legal
requirements and can be operated safely. The onus on all duty holders is to
continuously improve safety and therefore we will work with all parties to ensure they
are striving for ever-safer methods of train operation, including regarding the
technology that is available as part of DOO. As the safety regulator we will continue
our inspections and we will not hesitate to take action if we have evidence there is a
breach of health and safety legislation.

[#Metro]

It is a real shame that we did not get Andy Byford to head Queensland Rail.
Incredibly, the TTC uses two-person operation on their trains and only very recently is trialling conversion to DOO.

TTC testing 1-person train operation, union says it will decrease safety
http://globalnews.ca/news/2888646/ttc-testing-one-person-train-operation-union-says-it-will-decrease-safety/

The TTC is introducing a pilot project on Line 4 (Sheppard Line) that will see the removal of the guard position on trains.

Guards stand at the back of the train ensuring doors are safely opened and closed before the vehicle leaves the station. They play no "security" role in a conventional sense, TTC spokesperson Brad Ross said.

"The safety at stations is not compromised in any way"

Ross said "in fact safety on the train itself will likely be improved because there will be fewer incidents of what we call 'doors open off platform.'" This is when human error results in an operator opening a door while the train is in a tunnel – something that can cause significant delays as staff then need to cut power and check underneath the train as a matter of protocol.

[ozbob]

Transperth has DOO.  It was very interesting to observe the operations on the Perth rail network in January.

They have some advantages compared to SEQ rail:  full ATP, full height platforms, mainly straight platforms, no real interaction with freight. DOO obviously helps in the excellent frequency on all lines at all times of course!

I had a cab ride on the Australind (TransWA) part of the way back from Bunbury to Perth.  Interesting to see the ATP in operation.

The Australind is the last remaining 3'6" long distance passenger service in WA.

Until ATP is rolled out here, difficult to see any suburban DOO.

[#Metro]

TTC is also getting ATC signal upgrades to increase the train throughput to a train every 2 minutes.

[verbatim9]

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Media%20Centre/Media%20Releases/Pages/New-trains-to-first-service-the-Airport-and-Gold-Coast.aspx

New trains to first service the Airport and Gold Coast

27/06/2017

Customers on the Airport and Gold Coast lines will be the first to experience the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) fleet, when they enter passenger service.

Queensland Rail Chief Executive Officer Nick Easy said the Gold Coast and Airport lines had been chosen to meet higher patronage demand and provide improved customer service during the 2018 Gold Coast Commonwealth Games.

"Visitors from every corner of the globe will be coming to the Gold Coast for the 2018 Commonwealth Games and we plan to have our newest, most advanced train fleet operational to serve them," Mr Easy said.

"Given the different design of the NGR fleet, with the guard located at the end of the train rather than the middle, the way we provide boarding assistance to our customers will change.

"We have considered this closely and have thoroughly consulted with our people, stakeholders and the disability sector to ensure all customers will continue to be well supported.

"The assisted boarding point will remain in the middle of the platform, so the key change as part of the operating model is that station staff, rather than the guard, will provide assistance to customers when boarding the NGR train.

"To support this change, stations on the Gold Coast and Airport lines will be staffed by customer service employees from first service to last service, which also supports our commitment to becoming a customer-first organisation.

"Twenty-one additional station roles will join our existing team of 650.

"As well as being able to provide increased assistance to customers, this change will also mean amenities like ticket windows and toilets will be open for significantly longer periods – something our customers have told us they would like to see.

"Our customers' safety and satisfaction are our highest priorities and I am confident that this change will deliver improvements in both of those areas."

Mr Easy said Queensland Rail continued to work closely with stakeholders including the Department of Transport and Main Roads who are working to address design issues with the new NGR fleet.

"Whilst this work is underway it is important that we continue to prepare our network so that they enter service seamlessly this year," he said.

^^Does that also mean that Gold Coast line will be the first to go Driver Only Operation, after the Commonwealth Games? Guards can be redeployed to other lines to improve frequency on those lines.

Gold Coast line can be the first to go fully ETCS.

I can't really think of another way to reduce costs for a sustainable train operation for the future other than DOO and redeployment of guards to other lines. Plus retraining of guards when more lines go DOO. (Driver Only)

[SurfRail]

As a solution I'm not entirely opposed to more customer service staff at stations - there are some glaring omissions in terms of after hours staffing like at Helensvale.

I don't see how this is going to be sustainable in the long run for the rest of the system.

[tazzer9]

While I think airport- gold coast should be inplemented as DOO soon.   With station staff at each station from first to last train.    I see a problem with things go haywire and trains need to be diverted

[verbatim9]

Any chance to influence the powers of be to fast track ETCS on the Gold Coast line and run it as Driver only? The money eventually saved on running costs can be diverted to rail infrastructure for line extension to OOL and duplication/realignment to Landsborough (up to 160kph)

[Arnz]

I would think ECTS from Northgate to Petrie and Milton to Darra would be better alternatives.  Squeezes more Rosewood/Ipswich/Springfield & Nambour/Caboolture/Kippa-Ring services in both off-peak and peak in addition to more slots for PN/Aurizon freight services.

[verbatim9]

I know thats TMR's plan for inner city rail. But mainly going forward from Ozbobs comments. That Driver Only Operation is easier with ETCS. Being that Gold Coast line and Airport line would be the easiest to go DOO because of mainly compliant platform heights, Those 2 lines could be converted to ETCS fully.

[#Metro]

Is it possible to automate at least parts or times that trains are on the QR network? Maybe so.
Latest developments in the UK are very promising ... but need to get level platforms as part of the package IMHO.

[BrizCommuter]

Is it possible to automate at least parts or times that trains are on the QR network? Maybe so.
Latest developments in the UK are very promising ... but need to get level platforms as part of the package IMHO.

The ATO operation is only through the core section of the Thameslink (and soon Cross Rail) networks. The branches are still manually driven. Nothing too revolutionary.

[#Metro]

The ATO operation is only through the core section of the Thameslink (and soon Cross Rail) networks. The branches are still manually driven. Nothing too revolutionary.

Yes, but if it is happening within the core section:

(a) it is high volume
(b) there is interaction from many lines

So shouldn't it be simpler to roll out ATO away from the core in peripheral areas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink

[BrizCommuter]

The ATO operation is only through the core section of the Thameslink (and soon Cross Rail) networks. The branches are still manually driven. Nothing too revolutionary.

Yes, but if it is happening within the core section:

(a) it is high volume
(b) there is interaction from many lines

So shouldn't it be simpler to roll out ATO away from the core in peripheral areas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink

The core is grade separated, and segregated from other "mainline" rail services, which makes implementation easier. The branches in this case would be more complex. For example one of the branches joins onto the mainline out of Kings Cross. That would be very complex to automate as it mixes with a whole range of mainline and freight service on multiple tracks, which are not ATO equipped. 

[achiruel]

Would it be possible to make (at least part of) the network DOO-capable by the time CRR opens in 2024(?)

Maybe the CRR sector, although the way I'm thinking of doing it would require specific trainsets for the DOO sector.

I really think the ideal outcome is small IR CCTV cameras facing forward and backward along each half of the train. So one at the front/back, facing toward the middle, and two on the join between the 3/4th carriages facing toward the end of the trains. Ideally this would be connected with cable (not wirelessly, on more thing to go wrong) back to each drivers' cab. So that's a total of 8 cameras per trainset, 4 each side. I think SVGA (800x600) resolution would be sufficient for this purpose. It doesn't need to be super detailed, not like they're trying to catch criminals with it (unless QPS decides that's a good idea and maybe then they'll want 1080p). There would be a monitor inside each drivers' cab (maybe 17" or so, but I'm not sure if you can buy them in the right resolution) of resolution 1600x1200, which would fit the 4 cameras into quadrants on it. Most of this stuff should be basic off-the-shelf product, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Is there any stations where this could not work? i.e. the camera wouldn't be able to see 1.5 carriage lengths? I don't think there is.

Now, of course the union will crack a barney, but what if sufficient rollingstock is ordered over a period of a few years to allow most of the guards to progress to drivers, and offer redundancies/early retirement to the remainder? That way the number of employees should remain fairly static, QR can run a lot more services at a lower cost per service and keep the union happy as well.

Now I guess the other problem is...what to do with PWD? Would it be possible to have a driver-activated ramp near the middle of the train (well, four really, one on the last door of car 3 and one on the first door of car 4, each side of the train) which she/he could activate when a person with a mobility device is observed on the platform? Obviously for this to work properly, platforms would all need to be the same height, at least within the PWD boarding zone.

[verbatim9]

Perth - Driver Only

Adelaide - Driver Only

Melbourne - Driver only

Sydney - Commencing Driver only on Interciity routes Sydney - Newcastle - Sydney being the first

Brisbane (SEQ) ? Just Guard and Driver wage explosion. Unsustainable for future High Frequency services!

I hope the Airport - Gold Coast line goes Driver Only as well as the Sunshine Coast line after duplication to Landsborough is completed. #Qld2024. Planning should start for Driver Only lines now and to have them operational prior to #Qld2024.

[BrizCommuter]

Won't happen under the Palaszczuk government!

[verbatim9]

Won't happen under the Palaszczuk government!

Why is that?

[Whippa]

Won't happen under the Palaszczuk government!

Why is that?

Labor would never create a policy at odds with the unions.

[SurfRail]

^ Their job is to find a way to get rid of guards without reducing employee numbers.  It can't really be that hard, there is already a massive shortage.

Put the wage up like they did in Melbourne and just be done with it.

[verbatim9]

The current train operatng model is unaffordable and unsustainable. Start planning a Driver Only model now and phase it in on a few lines, like the Airport - Gold coast line and the Redcliffe - Springfield line. "Driver only operations" is more economical in the long run so that money saved can go into better infrastructure as well as run more services. Its a "no brainer". We live in hope!

Couriermail --> Queensland Rail train guards have a sweet deal

IN THE next life, and I'm betting there is one, I want to come back as a train guard for Queensland Rail.

Obviously I'd have to prove that I was up to the task, meaning that I would have to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that I was capable of blowing a whistle.
I would also have to show that simultaneous with the blowing of said whistle, I was able to poke my head out of a door.

Not too far, mind. Just the head and shoulders while retaining my balance and not falling out of the train.

Those aspiring guards who, while attempting to blow their whistle and poke their head out the door, forget to hold on to the train and land in a heap on the platform are, I imagine, considered to have failed the selection process.

Head poking is an integral part of the guard's duties as shown by the $50 million of your dollars the State Government has spent to ensure this noble art is not lost to posterity.

The thing is that new trains don't need guards.

The driver has a dash-mounted screen that provides him with an image of the full length of the railway station platform.
He can see quite plainly if all passengers have boarded.

He can also see the guard at the other end of the train poking his head out the door and blowing his whistle, telling him what he already knows, which is that it is safe to depart the station.

The $50 million was spent on installing extra screens in the drivers' cabins at the insistence of the union.

The guards could have viewed the dash-mounted screens but couldn't do so while poking their heads out the door, so extra screens were installed at enormous cost to allow both screen watching and head poking.

Yes, I know that if the screen says all clear then you don't need to head poke, but if that were allowed to happen, it might also occur to someone that you don't actually need guards. Lord knows we couldn't have that.

If I am successful in my train guard reincarnation, I can expect to make about $100,000 a year, plus overtime could easily add another $20,000 to my pay packet.

Nice work if you can get it. This, of course, pales when compared with the $200,000 the train drivers get with overtime, and they don't even have to stick their heads out the door or blow a whistle.

You really do have to smile at the way that a government can blithely rip up $50 million because union officials told them to do so.
How much money would be saved if the position of guards was abolished? Quite a lot but that won't happen even though guards perform no useful function. It won't happen because union money helps get the government elected.

If honourable members lost their seats at the next election, they'd have to try and get jobs as train guards because blowing whistles and head poking are at the extreme limits of their capabilities.

On second thought, some of them might find performing these two tasks simultaneously something of a challenge.

According to the Department of Premier and Cabinet's website, "ministers have obligations that flow from the following fundamental principles, set out in the Code of Ethical Standards of the Legislative Assembly of Queensland – integrity of the Parliament, primacy of the public interest, independence of action, appropriate use of information, transparency and scrutiny".

Primacy of the public interest? Independence of action? Transparency and scrutiny?

People become so accustomed to the arrogant abuse of political power that they come to expect and accept it, a capitulation that poses a threat to us all.

[brissypete]

That quite amusing article forgets the duplication of announcements done by the train and telling passengers which side to get off the train.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

[SurfRail]

Guards cutting off the actual (and much clearer, and usually more accurate announcements) seems to have reached epidemic levels.  Has there been some directive about this recently?  It happens every trip now.

Why do we even have automated announcements to begin with?  Clearly the way things are going it would be better to dispense with them altogether so the person at the trailing end of the train can feel important.

[achiruel]

Mike O'Connors article seems like a troll piece basically.

He doesn't address at all the safety issues around running DOO on a network that doesn't have ETCS, ATP or similar fully implemented. He also neglects to mention that only the NGRs have the cameras he's talking about.

He should've stayed retired IMO.

[SurfRail]

^ It absolutely is a hatchet job, like most of the intemperate and outrage fuelled garbage the CM publishes. 

Unfortunately there is a kernel of truth in it.  We need to ultimately move to a driver only model, and stop doing things which entrench the need for so many additional staff because of the silly operating model for the NGR, QR's failure to properly raise platform heights and provide weather protected DDA compliant boarding points adjacent to the front of the train, etc etc.  Seriously, how are the NGRs going to be operated network wide without manning virtually every platform unless this is all solved?

[#Metro]

Just DOO it. 

[verbatim9]

Could this be n Avenue to Driver Only Operations in Se Qld? Airport and Gold Coast Line?

Couriermail------------->https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/voluntary-queensland-public-service-redundancies-funded-by-17-billion-cash-pile/news-story/0e4bf453399f30ee57d4e94af13fbd89

QLD NEWS

Voluntary Queensland public service redundancies funded by $1.7 billion cash pile

More than 100 jobs will effectively disappear, and public servants could be weeded out through voluntary redundancies as the Queensland Government seeks to make $1.7 billion in cuts across its workforce

[ozbob]

Could this be n Avenue to Driver Only Operations in Se Qld? Airport and Gold Coast Line?

Couriermail------------->https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/voluntary-queensland-public-service-redundancies-funded-by-17-billion-cash-pile/news-story/0e4bf453399f30ee57d4e94af13fbd89

QLD NEWS

Voluntary Queensland public service redundancies funded by $1.7 billion cash pile

More than 100 jobs will effectively disappear, and public servants could be weeded out through voluntary redundancies as the Queensland Government seeks to make $1.7 billion in cuts across its workforce

No.  There will be no DOO on the Citytrain network until there is full ATP on the entire network.

[verbatim9]

Could this be n Avenue to Driver Only Operations in Se Qld? Airport and Gold Coast Line?

Couriermail------------->https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/voluntary-queensland-public-service-redundancies-funded-by-17-billion-cash-pile/news-story/0e4bf453399f30ee57d4e94af13fbd89

QLD NEWS

Voluntary Queensland public service redundancies funded by $1.7 billion cash pile

More than 100 jobs will effectively disappear, and public servants could be weeded out through voluntary redundancies as the Queensland Government seeks to make $1.7 billion in cuts across its workforce

No.  There will be no DOO on the Citytrain network until there is full ATP on the entire network.

So looking at 2023?

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

[ozbob]

No.  Only CRR, Milton to Northgate (ETCS L2), and North of Caboolture (ETCS L1) will have ATP.  Most of the network will not have it.

There is no money, I think they will be struggling just to do CRR and Milton to Northgate as is the current project.

Once CRR up and running, they could some time in the future do the entire network, but hey, who is holding their breath.   

[SteelPan]

As of today sure a dream...but the Genie is out of the bottle...forever.....think Sydney's new Metro and see video below...different sure, but there's no turning back....in the mid to late 80's, as a school-kid/straight out of school, I worked for Woolies, back then "EFT" [electronic funds transfer] and "scanners" were new things coming over the horizon....now, train drivers on trains.....final decade or two..... 

[James]

As of today sure a dream...but the Genie is out of the bottle...forever.....think Sydney's new Metro and see video below...different sure, but there's no turning back....in the mid to late 80's, as a school-kid/straight out of school, I worked for Woolies, back then "EFT" [electronic funds transfer] and "scanners" were new things coming over the horizon....now, train drivers on trains.....final decade or two..... 

The problem is the extended stopping distance required by trains - steel wheels aren't great at stopping compared with rubber wheels (tyres).

Automated trains are possible, and already exist, they just require a lot of technology, grade separation and specific infrastructure to make it work.

[verbatim9]

As of today sure a dream...but the Genie is out of the bottle...forever.....think Sydney's new Metro and see video below...different sure, but there's no turning back....in the mid to late 80's, as a school-kid/straight out of school, I worked for Woolies, back then "EFT" [electronic funds transfer] and "scanners" were new things coming over the horizon....now, train drivers on trains.....final decade or two..... 

The problem is the extended stopping distance required by trains - steel wheels aren't great at stopping compared with rubber wheels (tyres).

Automated trains are possible, and already exist, they just require a lot of technology, grade separation and specific infrastructure to make it work.

Gold Coast line and Airport Line (spur) can be candidates for Driverless corridors. Just a couple of level crossing to be removed and the key stopping stations to be screened. Plus everything else that goes with the upgrades to support it. Still reckon driver only should be the aim within the next 5 years.

[Cazza]

Ngl, we have bigger fish to fry than trying to go Driver Only. How about we start small by aiming to restore the lost services in the next 5 years then go from there? Judging by the amount of action going on at no. 1 Willie, that's how long it is looking to take.

[verbatim9]

It going to cost big bucks to restore services or even have better services with Drivers and Guards. It's an opportunity to plan towards Driver Only resulting in potential cost effective service improvements at the same time. This will also ensure modernisation of signalling to standard, safe modern standards.

[#Metro]

Labour is a massive operational cost, savings can be spent elsewhere.

GC line a good candidate, line is long, so big savings.

Take a ride on Sydney metro, first class stuff.

Coming to think about it, CRR, Central and Fortitude Valley should probably have platform screen doors just for safety and because any delay at these stations will impact the whole network.

[OzGamer]

Springfield <-> Airport could be a candidate post-CRR. Just one level crossing at Sherwood to remove and the whole thing is grade separated.

[SteelPan]