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Author Topic: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO) - How to DOO it?  (Read 20445 times)

Offline #Metro

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 :-c Your thoughts on DOO
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 09:10:37 PM by @Metro »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »
Quote
PS, I'm sure even if I did find out, you'd make up some reason as to why it couldn't be done in Qld   

Because our state starts with the letter Q and also the sky is bluer as well... shame...
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 01:42:02 AM »
I'm just saying that if the drivers have to rely on cctv cameras one potential issue would be flaring on Northbound Caboolture trains in the afternoon as an example. Mirrors can't show the whole 100+m train on a curved platform like Zillmere/Southbank/Alderley/Gaythorne etc. - Obstructions or reflections in mirrors - problems with 3 car or 6 car stopping positions? What happens if one camera isn't operational... does the door get locked? What effect does that now have on the passengers that require assistance - Would they have to walk to the far end of the platform where there might not be any shelter or seats for them to sit down on. Virginia Railway station - do you really think your going to get a motorised mobility scooter on the first door of the train? Would station staff have to help out during peak - Would they need extra training? Cost - If stations need to be upgraded how many - Maintainence, how much to keep the 12 cameras fully operational (3 car set) - Access to the cameras? Weather sealing? How much would it roughly cost to equip the whole fleet with cctv at every door linked to the cab? Vandals during operation - Could some spraypaint/scratching potentially cancel a service? Graffiti removal - Could the remover damage the protective screen? What are the other fail safes?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 01:58:24 AM by HappyTrainGuy »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 02:05:05 AM »
The are obviously some apparent potential labor savings in DOO, however the suburban inter-urban system in south-east Queensland would need major works to make it compatible with DOO.  Stations are not set up for DOO for DDA requirements, or has been pointed out in operational requirements.  Major issues and probably the thing that has stopped it.  

Personally I like the fact there is an additional train crew member - the guard, although the term guard probably doesn't describe the role as it once was.  It is very much a customer service role as much as a guard role these days.  

Drivers also really need to concentrate on the operation of the train.  We do not have the signal protection systems that they have on most other networks with DOO, ie. train has a SPAD brakes automatically applied. This is other factor.  Frankly a driver getting up and down at every station under these circumstances would possibly not be safe to due loss of concentration, it would require investigation first.

Other systems that have DOO do have issues with it, it is not seamless as some suggest.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:01:25 AM by ozbob »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 07:19:24 AM »
I don't agree that these are reasons that automatically kill the possibility of DOO, but merely flag things to investigate.

Labour cost is one very significant cost that decides how much service (and frequency) that can be gotten.
(See here --- http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/driverless-rapid-transit-why-it-matters.html)
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Driverless trains raise all kinds of anxieties. Many people like knowing there's someone in charge on the vehicle, and imagine that this person will be useful in emergencies.  But on most subways, you can only talk to this person by pushing an intercom button, and there's very little he can do if there's an emergency in your car other than call for help.

SkyTrain provides exactly the same emergency intercom button, but the person you're talking to is in a central control center instead of on the train.  As a result, they are likely to have a better view of the whole emergency, and the resources at hand, than a train driver could have.  There are still staff roaming the system, checking fares and providing assistance, but not one on every train.

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None of these, however, are the real reason to consider driverless metros.  The real reason is that they break the connection between frequency and labor costs.  Look at SkyTrain's frequency tables:

Maybe it is possible to double service frequency and change guards into drivers. It is certainly worth exploring.

While I agree there is some customer service role (disabled, sick passengers), we also have TransLink and 13 12 30 and could develop minimum information standards at stations to cover that. Roaming Transit Officers, if trained properly could also offer network information and assist. We would need to know what the frequency of these events are on the system (which we could get an idea through the RAILBOT delays thread) or I am sure QR keeps note of things like this.

What is needed here is benchmarking and review of train operations and a specific plan to grow rail patronage to 100 million pax per year within 5-7 years which is what I think Brisbane should at least be getting on its trains and a look at what works well, what could be changed etc.

Many stations are also being upgraded to meet standards.

What do people want and find more useful? A guard on every train or 100% increase in frequency to 15 minutes all day?
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Offline ozbob

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 07:30:25 AM »
I hear you TT. But until ATP is a reality, there is no hope for DOO IMHO.

See --> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/0971da45-b453-4d4f-a31a-53361e208f46/rssaqldmetronetworktor.pdf

In actual fact, that fact we don't have ATP on the subs is probably another indication of the time warp we have been in ...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 07:35:53 AM by ozbob »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 07:37:01 AM »
Quote
provide a final report by 28 February 2011.

Do you have a link?
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Offline ozbob

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 07:40:35 AM »
In Melbourne, the load points for assisted access are at the front of the trains, the leading end of the platform so the driver can assist if needed.  All the load points and supporting infrastructure on the Queensland Rail network would need to be moved to that position.  Not a small task, there are help points and so forth.  The addtional aids for driver vision would also have to be rolled out.  All achievable IMHO, although at a cost.

However the lack of ATP means that the Rail regulator is extremly unlikely to allow DOO on the suburban network.  If and when ATP is rolled out, and I have no doubt it will one day, then maybe part of the justification for ATP will be DOO?  

Look forward to the report.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 07:42:42 AM »
Quote
provide a final report by 28 February 2011.

Do you have a link?

I haven't found one.  Not sure if the report is complete, and/or publicly available yet.  Maybe a good question for the opposition?
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Offline Gazza

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 08:15:27 AM »
The above description is not how curved platfom camera systems work at all. The cameras aren't on the train itself. Basically  how the cameras/ mirrors work. are on the platform and there are as many as need be to give coverage. At the departure end of the platform is a cabinet with TVs in it that the driver can glance at.

As mentioned earlier, lens flare is not a problem.... Auto white balance fixes that.

Also as mentioned earlier, if a camera is broken the driver just looks manually with their own two eyes down the platfom.

Trust me when I say that the potential for failure gets thought about, rail netwoks always have backup plans, as evidenced by the various things we see when faults happen every day.

Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 08:33:58 AM »
Quote
The above description is not how curved platform camera systems work at all. The cameras aren't on the train itself. Basically  how the cameras/ mirrors work. are on the platform and there are as many as need be to give coverage. At the departure end of the platform is a cabinet with TVs in it that the driver can glance at.

I don't think you would need this if you could get CCTV broadcast inside the train, look it up on a screen. Maybe colour too!
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 08:37:44 AM »
I don't think you would need this if you could get CCTV broadcast inside the train, look it up on a screen. Maybe colour too!

Common sense would dictate this is something that should have been looked at as part of the new train communications systems being installed on the Adtranz rollingstock, and as part of the new wireless surveillance/broadband technology to be rolled out - but as to whether it has been is anybody's guess...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 08:41:46 AM »
You could even do it remotely from a central control centre. You might not even need the driver to look at any screens- control could do that remotely perhaps and a signal could then be sent to the train driver to close doors... just one idea.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2011, 10:10:38 AM »
You could even do it remotely from a central control centre. You might not even need the driver to look at any screens- control could do that remotely perhaps and a signal could then be sent to the train driver to close doors... just one idea.

Sensible suggestion.  We don't have a guard at every platform, we have them on the train, and we don't have heaps of manual signalling anymore - so why can't we cut that cost down even further by having "guards" provide the safeworking orders centrally?
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 01:56:46 PM »
Quote
As mentioned earlier, lens flare is not a problem.... Auto white balance fixes that.
That is just not true. White balance does not fix lens flare. Auto white balance is just a system that that tells the sensor the colour temperature of the incoming light. You don't have cloudy daylight (7000k) on inside a flurecent lit trains at night (3800K). You'll have a massive colour cast difference. When auto white balance is just off you might notice colour casts in images. They might be cooler (Blue colour cast), warmer (yellow colour cast), or the images will have a green or purple colour cast.

Quote
Also as mentioned earlier, if a camera is broken the driver just looks manually with their own two eyes down the platfom.
Your a driver at Gaythorne railway station and one cctv camera isn't working on the final carriage. How do you know that the door is clear when you can not visualy see it? If you move to having external station cameras there needs to be a decent amount of light at every station for the cameras to properly work (Remember cameras do not provide better lighting detail than what the human eye can see).

Quote
The above description is not how curved platfom camera systems work at all. The cameras aren't on the train itself. Basically  how the cameras/ mirrors work. are on the platform and there are as many as need be to give coverage. At the departure end of the platform is a cabinet with TVs in it that the driver can glance at.
And where are you going to get that budget from? That would work in underground metros but could that work across all the stations here? Whats not to say the location of the screen is near/facing the sun? Bi directional tracks?

You could even do it remotely from a central control centre. You might not even need the driver to look at any screens- control could do that remotely perhaps and a signal could then be sent to the train driver to close doors... just one idea.
So you've shifted the guard from making visual inspections and gotten rid of customer service from the train altogether and replaced it with a deskjob?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:20:25 PM by HappyTrainGuy »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 02:44:34 PM »
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Your a driver at Gaythorne railway station and one cctv camera isn't working on the final carriage. How do you know that the door is clear when you can not visualy see it? If you move to having external station cameras there needs to be a decent amount of light at every station for the cameras to properly work (Remember cameras do not provide better lighting detail than what the human eye can see).

But they do. The CityCat is equipped with night vision cameras specifically for this purpose. Cameras can also zoom and pivot.

Quote
And where are you going to get that budget from? That would work in underground metros but could that work across all the stations here? Whats not to say the location of the screen is near/facing the sun? Bi directional tracks?

Seems to work in Melbourne... is the sky Bluer in Queensland?

Quote
So you've shifted the guard from making visual inspections and gotten rid of customer service from the train altogether and replaced it with a deskjob?

The trend over time in countries such as Australia is that you have your operation use less people, better technology, but they get paid more.
You know we could return to manual signalling, flag waving and have the telephone exchange done manually if people like...

What I want from QueenslandRail is MORE TRAIN FREQUENCY.
If that means moving over time to DOO, then "DOO" it.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3977.0

I have previously established that TransPerth is a system comparable to QR.
Compare TransPerth's operating cost to that of Brisbane's (or other Australian cities).
The passengers carried on the TransPerth rail system is only slightly lower than that carried by QR.

We are paying a lot in fares and subsidies and not getting much for it. Our fares are going up and the subsidy level is high, even vs Perth.
The service is costlier than ever and is still rotten apple.

I would rather have more train frequency over customer service provided by guards (which I rarely use, if I want to know something I just call TransLink)
I accept that something needs to be worked out re: Safety and people with disabilities, but I think it can be overcome.

I would like to hear what the alternatives are for increasing train frequency...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:58:04 PM by tramtrain »
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 03:38:20 PM »
Why not replace drivers with driverless trains and have the station staff deal with passengers requiring assistance? Less costs involved for operation. Just because one place uses something does not mean it has to be incorporated here. China uses maglev trains..... how come we don't have them here? How come were still on narrow gauge when other places have a wider gauge? Why doesn't Townsville have its own trains for PT? Why doesn't brisbane have its own underground metro just for the cbd? If you want a higher frequency tracks have to be upgraded. Sooo 2 lines over 25km can support Nambour express/Caboolture/Roma Street express/Ipswich trains on a 15 min clock face when combined with inbound and outbound freight/inbound and outbound traveltrains/relocating rollingstock/driver training/train testing/private operations. You'll start to get problems with the single track and on other lines aswell. What about turn around times now? One person now has to check and troubleshoot the whole train. A door fails to open so the driver now has to stop the train and lock it where as in previous times the train would continue and the guard would do this.

Its all okaying in saying other places do it... lets do it here but how about you put a price to it. How much would it take to upgrade the whole fleet/network with ATP, does signaling need to be upgraded, how much to now retrain everyone, how much for all this cctv, maintainence to keep it all up and running including vandalism, station upgrades just to enable passengers to wait safely at the ends of platforms, rollingstock.... is more required.

I'm not budging until figures could be estimated on just enabling it.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 04:39:41 PM »
Quote
Why not replace drivers with driverless trains and have the station staff deal with passengers requiring assistance? Less costs involved for operation. Just because one place uses something does not mean it has to be incorporated here. China uses maglev trains..... how come we don't have them here? How come were still on narrow gauge when other places have a wider gauge? Why doesn't Townsville have its own trains for PT? Why doesn't brisbane have its own underground metro just for the cbd? If you want a higher frequency tracks have to be upgraded. Sooo 2 lines over 25km can support Nambour express/Caboolture/Roma Street express/Ipswich trains on a 15 min clock face when combined with inbound and outbound freight/inbound and outbound traveltrains/relocating rollingstock/driver training/train testing/private operations. You'll start to get problems with the single track and on other lines aswell. What about turn around times now? One person now has to check and troubleshoot the whole train. A door fails to open so the driver now has to stop the train and lock it where as in previous times the train would continue and the guard would do this.

Its all okaying in saying other places do it... lets do it here but how about you put a price to it. How much would it take to upgrade the whole fleet/network with ATP, does signaling need to be upgraded, how much to now retrain everyone, how much for all this cctv, maintainence to keep it all up and running including vandalism, station upgrades just to enable passengers to wait safely at the ends of platforms, rollingstock.... is more required.

I'm not budging until figures could be estimated on just enabling it.

OK... now in process  :-c
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2011, 04:50:23 PM »
There are a few stations that come to mind where access at the ends could be quite difficult. Virginia railway station can't allow access to the end as the stairs block access and you can't have passengers blocking the area around elevator doors. The same can sort of apply to Bowen Hills too.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 05:01:08 PM by HappyTrainGuy »
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Offline mufreight

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2011, 05:39:44 PM »
If the platform height is at Carriage floor level the disability access problem boarding trains does not come into consideration.
Visibility of the length of the train by the drivers is easily accomplished with TV cameras placed on the platform transmiting to a split monitor in the drivers cab, the doors closing, stand clear warning can also readily be fed into the station PA system actuated by or made by the driver.
The bean counter mentality that has not raised platforms when new platforms have been constructed or old platforms have been refurbished has ensured that DOO will not be instituted here for quite some time.
The Audio and Visual equipment required should in the interests of safety and service be being installed now.
The upgrading of the signaling system with ATP should also be being undertaken now, particularly with the expansion of bi-directional running in the electrified network.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2011, 05:47:49 PM »
Excuses can be gotten around. 'All too hard' thinking is permeating everything in this state, and it needs to end.

Sydney is extending platforms to provide for guards in the rear of trains on the Waratah sets and installing CCTV and other systems for safeworking and passenger safety needs associated with them  - an analogous issue.  Melbourne has solved this problem.  Perth reconstructed its network so that the doors are actually level everywhere, without exception.  That took some doing, but the efficiencies are quite clear over time.  

I'd rather have Perth's level of service and high-quality passenger information and facilities at every station than the dubious 'customer service' offered by our guards, which we are paying for with less frequent trains.  

Station staff I have no issue with - they are the ones who should be providing customer service functions wherever possible, including wheelchair boarding.  Frankly, when I think of the excellent customer service QR does provide (assuming you ignore critical things like frequency and limit yourself to staff interaction), I don't think of somebody who locks themself in a cab end - I think of people like Clive at Central.

It requires a hell of a lot less crew to have key stations manned than having 2 crew on every revenue service.

I think the benefit to frequency and the wider transport network is well and truly off-set by any temporary inconvenience and cost in relocating facilities, fixing lines of sight, implementing new safeworking rules etc.  

Poor platform geometry and accessibility, lack of ATP/train stops, low-level platforms etc are not things we should be putting up with either and need to be fixed, no matter how many crew are on board each service, so it certainly isn't very good as excuses go.
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Offline Golliwog

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2011, 05:50:17 PM »
If the platform height is at Carriage floor level the disability access problem boarding trains does not come into consideration.
Visibility of the length of the train by the drivers is easily accomplished with TV cameras placed on the platform transmiting to a split monitor in the drivers cab, the doors closing, stand clear warning can also readily be fed into the station PA system actuated by or made by the driver.
The bean counter mentality that has not raised platforms when new platforms have been constructed or old platforms have been refurbished has ensured that DOO will not be instituted here for quite some time.
The Audio and Visual equipment required should in the interests of safety and service be being installed now.
The upgrading of the signaling system with ATP should also be being undertaken now, particularly with the expansion of bi-directional running in the electrified network.

Using the giant money pot in the sky to fund it all? All good idea, and the technology is there to support them, but the cost of getting and installing said technology is going to be the killer.

Also, I'm going to call you out on the carriage floor height platforms removing the need for the disability access ramps. In 9 out of 10 cases yes, but they still provide little short ramps at the level stations for wheel chairs. There will always be a horizontal gap.
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Offline SteelPan

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2011, 05:51:32 PM »
Why DOO?

Why not cut by (at least) 1/3 white collar, paper shuffling jobs in govt depts.  1,000's are employed in roles that the private sector bined decades ago.  A few years back it was admitted the "Health Dept" alone has - wait for it - 10,000, yes, TEN THOUSAND - clerks!    :-r

That's just one job classification in one department - imagine the the wider over staffing of desk sitters. So, why pick on people at the "coal face" running powerful machinery with often 1,000's of lives in their hands.

ALOT of savings out there to be found - before you get to train crews!

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Offline #Metro

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 06:17:58 PM »
Quote
I'd rather have Perth's level of service and high-quality passenger information and facilities at every station than the dubious 'customer service' offered by our guards, which we are paying for with less frequent trains.  

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Offline Gazza

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 06:56:45 PM »
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Remember cameras do not provide better lighting detail than what the human eye can see
Excuses excuses....



Quote
That would work in underground metros but could that work across all the stations here?
It's actually done at outdoor stations.


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And where are you going to get that budget from?
The budget comes from labour savings from not having the guards in future years.

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Whats not to say the location of the screen is near/facing the sun? Bi directional tracks?
Obviously the screen is placed out of the sun, as they do with PID screens, and as I mentioned twice now, has a hood over it to keep the sun out.


Do you honestly find it that hard to believe that it works. Here is a photo that illustrates it perfectly:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/stationtvscreen.jpg/
-The platform curves.
-Obstructions on the platform such as the office cause visibility issues.
-A TV screen is provided, inside a weather protective cover.
-A mirror is provided for backup.
-The station is on eastern end of the District line, so  vandalisim would be a problem.

I can see how you could possibly argue otherwise that it 'wouldn't work' now I've posted this.

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. China uses maglev trains..... how come we don't have them here?
Because we don't have the money.

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How come were still on narrow gauge when other places have a wider gauge?
Because a suburban network can run just fine on narrow gauge. Apart from the Shinkansen, Japan is narrow guague.

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Why doesn't Townsville have its own trains for PT?
Because if you don't even have a proper bus network why even think about establishing rail.

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Why doesn't brisbane have its own underground metro just for the cbd?
Because our current politicians have no vision.

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Why not replace drivers with driverless trains and have the station staff deal with passengers requiring assistance?
Because our network isn't grade sepped.
I think there's the economics of it too. If you are building a new network from scratch you can just choose the infrastructure to support driver less trains upfront, and not really pay much extra to a network with drivers.

But if you were converting an existing network to driverless, i imagine the payoff time for labour savings would be far too long for it to be viable due to the amount of re-engineering involved (and most driverless networks have a steward onboard anyway who operates the doors etc). The only place where conversion has taken place is a couple of lines on the Paris Metro, and I imagine the sheer passenger volumes is what made it viable.

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Just because one place uses something does not mean it has to be incorporated here
Well of course, we don't have to do anything. Problem is, that's been the story of PT in Australia for the past few decades....
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 07:14:09 PM by Gazza »

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2011, 07:47:00 PM »
Can you tell me where they place the PIDS at stations here in Queensland?

Now think about all the ends of every platform and tell me the difference.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2011, 08:05:23 PM »
Well, that pic I posted has the TV beyond the end of the covered section, so there!

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2011, 08:17:12 PM »
Don't worry. I've made my point and what I think on the matter.
"What housing crisis?? There are plenty of free mobile apartments rolling around on the rails every day"

Offline SurfRail

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 08:47:26 AM »
Can you tell me where they place the PIDS at stations here in Queensland?

Now think about all the ends of every platform and tell me the difference.

Nowhere at most stations, usually more than one set along the platform where they are deployed.  What's your point?
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Offline mufreight

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 08:56:56 AM »
With current technology the CCTV monitor with a split screen can be onboard the train in the drivers cab fed with signal from up to four cameras mounted on the platform.

somebody

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 09:00:02 AM »
Don't worry. I've made my point and what I think on the matter.
And that is that it cannot be done tomorrow.  On that point, I fully agree with you.

It may require a full replacement of the signalling systems to be combined with ATP and rectification works for wheelchair pax.  Very surprised about alleged ramps in Perth.  I'd have thought that you'd just roll on, and that you'd be able to do the same thing at Domestic.

Offline petey3801

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 09:07:51 AM »
Don't worry. I've made my point and what I think on the matter.
And that is that it cannot be done tomorrow.  On that point, I fully agree with you.

It may require a full replacement of the signalling systems to be combined with ATP and rectification works for wheelchair pax.  Very surprised about alleged ramps in Perth.  I'd have thought that you'd just roll on, and that you'd be able to do the same thing at Domestic.

Even here on high level platforms, guards are required to use a small ramp to bridge the gap for wheelchair pax.
All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect those held by my employer.

somebody

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2011, 09:15:09 AM »
Even here on high level platforms, guards are required to use a small ramp to bridge the gap for wheelchair pax.
I don't understand the "why?" though.  That gap is too small for even the small wheels to fall in to so long the chair is driven straight over it.  Less dangerous than crossing a kerb which is done every day by people in non-motorised wheelchairs.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2011, 02:03:41 PM »
Nowhere at most stations, usually more than one set along the platform where they are deployed.  What's your point?

Most displays are always well under cover usually around the main station building/ticket machine area in the centre of the station/platform. There are hardly many stations on the network where the ends are covered or have a screen there. Now have this fixed system in play on the Ipswich line. On a afternoon RS bound train from Ipswich whats going to happen to the mirror or the tv screen (Hoods do not prevent this - they limit the stray light but no if its facing it) when the sun makes contact. Glare and a reflection of the sun.

Oh and in regards to that night vision video theres one downside to them. Light :) If there is little available light the camera can't amplify the available light to produce an image. One way to damage/disable them is shining a bright light into the sensor. Its the same effect as pointing a camera at the sun just at night time.
"What housing crisis?? There are plenty of free mobile apartments rolling around on the rails every day"

Offline Gazza

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 02:49:41 PM »
I can see where you are coming from, but the sun is actually easy to deal with, since you know the precise angle the sun is coming in at any time of the day and in any given month. This is how they angle solar panels to get the most sun, or at the contrary, design solar shading to exlude it fully. So before installing the screen you’d just calculate it.

PS, that photo I posted was on the District line, which runs east west, and they have obviously overcome the issue.

As for the point about external light sources interfering with the cameras. Bear in mind that station lighting is up on poles and is pointing towards the ground, not at the camera, so it’s not going to interfere. This is no different to a car park cameras environment, which also has light on poles pointing at the ground.

But it’s all a bit of a digression, because night vision is already used on PT in Brisbane anyway.

Offline mufreight

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 03:40:49 PM »
Don't worry. I've made my point and what I think on the matter.
And that is that it cannot be done tomorrow.  On that point, I fully agree with you.

It may require a full replacement of the signalling systems to be combined with ATP and rectification works for wheelchair pax.  Very surprised about alleged ramps in Perth.  I'd have thought that you'd just roll on, and that you'd be able to do the same thing at Domestic.

Even here on high level platforms, guards are required to use a small ramp to bridge the gap for wheelchair pax.

I have yet to see the ramp required at Central platforms 5 and 6 or platforms 8 and 9 at Roma Street with the same applying at Richlands

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 04:06:50 PM »
But the fact still remains without hundreds of millions if not billions would have to be spent on just enabling it and having it comply to disability standards. And I don't see them with that much cash just laying around here and there.

Why was the train held up so long for the old lady in the wheelchair at X station... Because she didn't want to sit in the rain at the end of the platform/because she didn't want to sit in the hot sun at the end of the platform/because she didn't want to sit alone at night at the end of a platform where theres hardly any light away from all the other passengers at the station.

What happens if there is a fault with that door beside the drivers door? back up procedures/are trains designed for this? Maximum amount of wheelchairs allowed in the train?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 04:19:45 PM by HappyTrainGuy »
"What housing crisis?? There are plenty of free mobile apartments rolling around on the rails every day"

Offline petey3801

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 04:15:59 PM »
Don't worry. I've made my point and what I think on the matter.
And that is that it cannot be done tomorrow.  On that point, I fully agree with you.

It may require a full replacement of the signalling systems to be combined with ATP and rectification works for wheelchair pax.  Very surprised about alleged ramps in Perth.  I'd have thought that you'd just roll on, and that you'd be able to do the same thing at Domestic.

Even here on high level platforms, guards are required to use a small ramp to bridge the gap for wheelchair pax.

I have yet to see the ramp required at Central platforms 5 and 6 or platforms 8 and 9 at Roma Street with the same applying at Richlands

Im just conveying what we have been told must be done. Im generally not looking at what is happening with Roma St/Central when a wheelchair is loaded, but i'm certain I have seen the small ramps used at both Roma Street and Central. Haven't seen a wheelchair at Richlands as yet.
All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect those held by my employer.

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 04:45:25 PM »
If the platform height is at Carriage floor level the disability access problem boarding trains does not come into consideration.
Visibility of the length of the train by the drivers is easily accomplished with TV cameras placed on the platform transmiting to a split monitor in the drivers cab, the doors closing, stand clear warning can also readily be fed into the station PA system actuated by or made by the driver.
The bean counter mentality that has not raised platforms when new platforms have been constructed or old platforms have been refurbished has ensured that DOO will not be instituted here for quite some time.
The Audio and Visual equipment required should in the interests of safety and service be being installed now.
The upgrading of the signaling system with ATP should also be being undertaken now, particularly with the expansion of bi-directional running in the electrified network.
will level platforms solve the disability issue?  Sure it will be level but how much of a gap? In sydney the doors are level often but people manage to fall between the train and platform. So I would suggest that assistance is still required.

justanotheruser

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Re: QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO)
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 04:48:21 PM »
Excuses can be gotten around. 'All too hard' thinking is permeating everything in this state, and it needs to end.

Sydney is extending platforms to provide for guards in the rear of trains on the Waratah sets and installing CCTV and other systems for safeworking and passenger safety needs associated with them  - an analogous issue.  Melbourne has solved this problem.  Perth reconstructed its network so that the doors are actually level everywhere, without exception.  That took some doing, but the efficiencies are quite clear over time.  

I'd rather have Perth's level of service and high-quality passenger information and facilities at every station than the dubious 'customer service' offered by our guards, which we are paying for with less frequent trains.  

Station staff I have no issue with - they are the ones who should be providing customer service functions wherever possible, including wheelchair boarding.  Frankly, when I think of the excellent customer service QR does provide (assuming you ignore critical things like frequency and limit yourself to staff interaction), I don't think of somebody who locks themself in a cab end - I think of people like Clive at Central.

It requires a hell of a lot less crew to have key stations manned than having 2 crew on every revenue service.

I think the benefit to frequency and the wider transport network is well and truly off-set by any temporary inconvenience and cost in relocating facilities, fixing lines of sight, implementing new safeworking rules etc.  

Poor platform geometry and accessibility, lack of ATP/train stops, low-level platforms etc are not things we should be putting up with either and need to be fixed, no matter how many crew are on board each service, so it certainly isn't very good as excuses go.

what on earth do you mean key stations???  Are you saying ok at key stations we will make sure there are staff but stuff everyone else.  They can be inconvienced and made to wait? What I am talking about here is the current practice of disabled passengers catching trains in the opposite direction of where they want to go simply so they can get from one platform to another. However when they arrive at the station they are supposed to change at the train to their destination left 5 mins earlier forcing them to wait.

You call it making excuses but others here call it wanting to know how it will work. We want to get it as close to perfect as possible from the beginning not major stuff ups. What is unreasonable about asking for cost of upgrading basically every station on the network so the front of the platform will have a roof to protect people from the weather. What is wrong with asking what will we do with stations where the stairs or lifts are at the front of the platform prevents wheelchairs being there. Ignoring these questions is just like what cityrail did when asked  to put in lifts or similar. Cityrail just said no. It was only by people speaking out and taking them to court that forced cityrail to install lifts. There is a good reason these questions are raised as to how are we going to deal with it. I haven't seen one person say they are against DOO. They just want to know how it will work and be implemented. Are we going to have to have another fare increase to cover the costs of this work?

 

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